The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 117 – Tips on Writing a First Draft

Writing a first draft is a hurdle that many really struggle with. Most will never make it any further than this step.

In this episode of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper offer a whole range of tips and advice to help you conquer the first draft of your novel.

 

Links mentioned in this episode:

BookBub reasons for rejecting a featured deal: https://insights.bookbub.com/reasons-book-rejected-bookbub-featured-deal/ 

The FREE Self Publishing Success course: https://www.amwritingfantasy.com/ 

Our guide on how to plot a novel: https://books2read.com/Plot-Development 

 

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

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Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. In today's Publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need. And literary agent, there is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper.

Autumn (32s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 117 of The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. And the topic of the day is something that we have indirectly in a number of episodes, but we have never dedicated a full episode to it before. So we decided to talk about some tips for writing a first draft, which will be so much fun.

Autumn (56s):
It's it is strange to think that we haven't, we've shared so many tips and we've talked to so many authors about how to overcome hurdles, but I can't believe we've ever done a whole episode on this.

Jesper (1m 9s):
That's right. And when I was thinking about it as well, we have also actively, when we talked about editing, we have been talking slightly about indirectly, you know, talking about writing a first draft, but yeah.

Autumn (1m 21s):
And covered the seven stages kind of helps you through a first draft, But no, this is really about writing it.

Jesper (1m 28s):
It is. Yes. So let's see how we go today. And it should be a, it should be an interesting conversation.

Autumn (1m 35s):
Yes. I I'm sure you've prepared something and I left it wide open, so I'm good.

Jesper (1m 41s):
I am always prepared and then you can wing it as you normally do.

Autumn (1m 46s):
I do although, I've had 23 or so first drafts. So I feel that this topic you feel comfortable. Yeah, no, this is my niche, so I'm good. So how are things for you with though?

Jesper (2m 2s):
I'm a pretty good. Last week at least I made good progress on the first draft of our book one.

Autumn (2m 11s):
Yes, you're doing good.

Jesper (2m 14s):
Yeah. So I think this week is going to be a bit tough. I have a lot on the agenda this week, so let's see how we go, but, but, but it was good. At least getting some, some writing done last week. And I think I managed to do four chapters.

Autumn (2m 31s):
You did a really good. Yeah, you're doing a little bit better than me with that. I'm still working on the edits to the reader magnet, the Rift and the Mage, but I know, and by the time this is recorded, it'll be done. But I'm really seeing my first book since July like 2019, this coming weekend. So there's a few things to do just a little bit. It's just a little bit, yeah, I forgot it. It's been a year and a half almost since we released a book, I forgot how much there is to do so. Yeah. I'm a little swamped. Yeah. Well it's so exciting. So that's good.

Jesper (3m 6s):
The other good news actually is that some of the Corona restriction's have started to lift now. So I think fingers crossed, but within the next one to two weeks, I think I could be back to refereeing again.

Autumn (3m 22s):
Excellent. And so if we're going to be spring-ish soon so that will be really exciting.

Jesper (3m 26s):
Yeah. And they were saying, by the time we get to the summer, hopefully all of our entire countries should be vaccinated. Hopefully by summer time,

Autumn (3m 35s):
The size of one of our cities, I would hope so.

Jesper (3m 39s):
I should actually be even faster.

Autumn (3m 42s):
And I mean, if they are saying the us can get completely vaccinated by May, we'll see if that happens. It was knowing the government will be June or July, but yeah.

Jesper (3m 49s):
Yeah. Well, did they say what year?

Autumn (3m 56s):
Again, I think it might have been 2024. You know, they didn't, or maybe they said there would be enough vaccines to vaccinate everyone by May. But if someone's going out with like a tranquilizer gun, that's not going to you.

Jesper (4m 11s):
Oh yeah. That could be actually be cool. If you had some snipers are something like when you go out shopping than you'll get a ride,

Autumn (4m 18s):
That would be cool. If there are people who would enjoy that over here. So we could pay money to have people do that in, make it all back, fill we've spent on helping people get their vaccines. Oh yeah,

Jesper (4m 31s):
No, I see. Yeah, but actually I'm not sure if you remember, but quite a while back U a recommended that I should watch the show on Netflix, which one? Yeah. It's quite a while back actually. And I don't speak friends, but I think I would pronounce it LA revolution. Yeah.

Autumn (4m 50s):
Or something like that. I did recommend, you know, what did you think of it?

Jesper (4m 58s):
Well? I'm halfway through now.

Autumn (4m 59s):
Okay. Yeah.

Jesper (4m 60s):
It's in French. That's a bit of a downer.

Autumn (5m 3s):
And like French four years in high school. Come on. Yeah.

Jesper (5m 6s):
Okay. Well, I don't speak of word French, so yeah. But I'm half way through and a, so far, at least I would say that I really like how they are building the mystery elements. Excellent. I'm still not completely sure what kind of, I wouldn't even call it magic, but sort of what's going on with the blue blood and stuff and I'm not quite sure what's going on still with that. Okay. So I think that's pretty cool. Yeah. I guess the one thing I would say at this point is that I could really use a stronger character motivation for, I mean, I understand that a, they wanna stop the root, this stuff from happening and the revolution stuff and I, and I get it, but I think if it would be stronger or if it was a bit more clear why the character should be so invested in it, I ah, I'm not a a hundred percent onboard with that, but, but so far it, it, it's pretty good.

Autumn (6m 5s):
Yeah. And it gets resolved at the end. I hope that I'm only halfway through, so yeah. And it doesn't leave it open. And I don't know if there is a second season come in, but it does leave it open that there was a potential there. But Yeah, for anyone who hasn't looked at it is it it's a totally, it's sort of like a zombie meat's French revolution. And I was actually my husband and I had a recent discussion about it saying, you know, well, it looks like pride and prejudice and zombies and Lincoln vampire Slayer kind of fed into this series being written. And I thought it was fascinating. I'm like this actually explains the French revolution in a way that I can totally understand, but I really enjoyed it.

Autumn (6m 48s):
And I usually don't do Zombie things. So, and now I want a reprint, a prejudice. And so I'll be, so there you go.

Jesper (6m 54s):
Yeah. Well there's not zombies in this, to be honest.

Autumn (6m 58s):
But it, sort of plays on that idea though.

Jesper (7m 2s):
Maybe Yes. I'd just call it the blue blood, you know, but I guess I just want it to mention it because if there are some listeners who are interesting, if you'd like something like mysterious murders and a no on no unknown virus spreading, I was about to say that and I just put it, I shouldn't say that, that nobody wants and watch it.

Autumn (7m 24s):
Go ahead. It's fine. We have a vaccine now. They don't, it's fine. Know what?

Jesper (7m 28s):
I just feel like a virus stuff is that people are like, yeah, I don't, no, I don't want to even watch stuff that is about virus outbreaks. It was just like no way to get it. I don't want to watch it. I don't want to read about it. It's just done. No, but Okay. Anyway, if you'd like mysterious murder test and try to check, are you pronounce this better than I do what they want to school? Do you see on, there you go. Yeah.

Narrator (8m 1s):
A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (8m 5s):
Yeah. So first of all, I just wanted to mention that we are making another attempt today on a recording ourselves on video while also recording the podcasts. So you'll be able to see on the Am Writing Fantasy YouTube channel, if you want. And then there is a video feed, but, but why am I mentioning is more because last week we had the first tri and a, there was some internet lax costs by the video feed, which meant that the yeah, autumn broke. It meant what, what, what happened though was that are sometimes it took a couple of seconds before I could hear what Autumn set and vice versa.

Jesper (8m 48s):
So we have a bit of an awkward pause in between where it was quite annoying. So we were having another tap now and I hope it's going to work well today, but it is more to let you know that if the video feed keeps interfering, then we will probably dump the video feed again, because the most important thing is that this is a podcast. So the audio feed needs to be good. And if it suffers because of the video, then we will dump the video. But at least for now, we're, we're just trying out a bit, we changed a few things for today. So hopefully the internet, like we'll not be there anymore. Yeah,

Autumn (9m 21s):
Yeah. I know. So far its between you and I seems Okay. Yeah. Internet, my internet is holding out, which is pretty good. If you can crisscrossed, we got to work at this time. Yeah. And you've changed location. Maybe that's a good idea. We got some like officey Diggs going on. Its kind of yeah.

Jesper (9m 42s):
Yeah. Well another thing on the internet since this is that, that segment, I want it to mention how BookBub she had a list of nine reasons why the most, they most often reject a BookBub feature deal.

Autumn (9m 58s):
Awesome. That is useful.

Jesper (9m 59s):
Yeah. And given how important are these deals are. And then I thought maybe I could just do a very quick rundown of those 900.

Autumn (10m 6s):
That's a really good cause I had to actually thinking of submitting a book and so this would maybe convince me or make me stay away.

Jesper (10m 13s):
Yeah. And then you can see if you are aligned with these things away for a while.

Autumn (10m 16s):
Yeah. So I have had one BookBub deal. So that was really exciting. But you know, it seems hit or miss there or maybe there's no rhyme or reason to this. There is no, no, no.

Jesper (10m 26s):
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now the number one, the book is too short. Oh that's interesting. Yeah. There are a minimum page count requirements. So that's a pretty easy fix. If a, you know, check those out before you submit a request for a feature deal. Interesting. That's easy. And a number two is also EASI not meeting the pricing requirement's so it was submitted. Book has to be deeply discounted or free. So that's a no brainer. Right. But if you don't have in the discounted the Book, then just don't get submitted feature deals because you are going to get rejected. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. A so not surprising so far right

Autumn (11m 8s):
Now. I know it's shocking there.

Jesper (11m 11s):
Number three, and this one is about timing. So BookBub will not feature a book more than once every six months. So if you did have a feature deal on that page that you can, you are going to have featured deals on several different, have your books. So, but that particular Book, they will not fit you again before six months later. So if you already had it, then don't submit it because you're wasting your time and their time.

Autumn (11m 33s):
It seems fair. I mean it's hard enough to get one. So if you can get one every six months yeah. For you,

Jesper (11m 42s):
Good for you. The other one is on number four is if your book is only available on Amazon, meaning Kindle unlimited, you are less likely to get Joseph. Oo, you can't be chosen, but it is much less likely BookBub is a, they SUPPORT wide platform and they like white. Oh. So they tend to promote books that are available everywhere. And so it's interesting. So if you are only in Canada limit at that might be, why are you getting rejections? It make sense a number five. And this one also makes a lot of sense to me, but it's about the reader experience. So if BookBub find a lot of reviews that mentioned that you have typos and stuff like that, they will often reject the Book.

Jesper (12m 27s):
That makes sense. That's good to know

Autumn (12m 28s):
Now of course it, it makes it harder than if you go in and you fix them, which hopefully you, you should do that before you publish. But if you can fix them, you still have those. Where are you sitting there? So they're going to hurt you really bad. Yeah.

Jesper (12m 42s):
Over time. So get it right the first time you get it. Right. So number six and you'll like this next one out of it. It's something that we see all the time. Oh, all right. Well I like this one then if the cover, it doesn't matter. and the reader expectation BookBub we'll likely reject it. Yes. Have we said that before,

Autumn (13m 5s):
So true. And that was good. That's one reason I was really happy to have one of my book's featured because it was also one of the covers I did. So I made me feel good as a graphic artist.

Jesper (13m 16s):
Yeah. I can understand that. Yeah. We are now getting into like chicken and egg territory. OK. Yeah. So number seven on the list is not having enough reviews. Well, it doesn't

Autumn (13m 28s):
Say it. How many at once or

Jesper (13m 30s):
No, it does not tell me about it, but how do we get reviews when you are not seeing any sales? Yeah. And if you could get a BookBub feature deal, you would get sales and then you would get reviews. So you see the chicken and the egg problem here. Yeah.

Autumn (13m 42s):
Yeah. And I know she got a dragon in the egg problem, but okay. That's fine.

Jesper (13m 49s):
Yeah. Well, yeah, the, the dragon, not the egg problem and that's much better. Okay. Got it. But that's luckily something that we do talk about in the self publishing success course, and you can enroll to that course for free. Yay. Yay. That's a good,

Autumn (14m 5s):
Yeah. The idea, because then you can figure out how to get reviews, which means to you, you might get it, but yeah.

Jesper (14m 10s):
Yes. And I'll put a link in the show notes to the self publish Success cos so yeah. You can just sign up and get going in there, but I'll leave that alone for now and move on to number eight. Yes. We still have to work. Yeah. This one is a much harder to comply with and I would almost say just submit your book that BookBub feet, figure it out and check that because number eight, it's what they call that it is not aligned with current market trends. And so that's a bit like, yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah. I think that's a tough one. Yeah.

Autumn (14m 49s):
I know. There's times where, you know, if a certain type of book is just not selling you sometimes if you're paying attention, you'll know that. But there's times that you don't, you can't read their mind what they decided is popular right now. So it's just, Yes.

Jesper (15m 3s):
So one of the, like, you know, in the, when I'm out refereeing, we also have this catch all bracket thing. So we have like on sportsmanship conduct and you get a yellow card for it, but how do you define what that is? How I define that as a referee. So when you are, when you're being an asshole, you'll get to the yellow cards and I'll give you that as the reason then. So I think this is BookBub so the cats, all categories were like, well, if we can't figure stuff out, otherwise we will start it in the market. Not aligned with current market trends and rejected. Yeah, yeah,

Autumn (15m 35s):
Yeah. Like the elf stones of Shannara and it's just not selling right now or are you do Saifai Fantasy and that's just not popular. Everyone wants to read about vampires and zombies is they'll just use that one for the sake of it. So that's the nice way of saying they were like, you know,

Jesper (15m 55s):
Yeah. And then the last one is a pretty easy and say, no, in fact it, it is just that they have run out of advertising slots. They only advertise a certain number of the emails and maybe they would have liked to take in your book on board, but they are out of slots. So you just submit again next month. But yeah, that was nice things of why Book, book, book, buck. Did I say that? Yeah.

Autumn (16m 21s):
Yeah. BookBub yeah. Well it

Jesper (16m 25s):
Could be a buck. Who knows,

Autumn (16m 27s):
But I like that.

Jesper (16m 28s):
Why did they reject your book's? So yeah, maybe if you have interesting things to do, if there was a bit more details in the article itself, so I'll put a link to the article in the show notes as well. If you, if you want to go and read a bit more of the details, what I basically covered all the, the major points to it.

Autumn (16m 45s):
Yeah. I might even check it out. I want to see what the length of novels is. If they are looking at novellas or it has to be full length, that'll be interesting. It has to be full Links. Novels. Yeah.

Jesper (17m 1s):
A lot. And I mean, a lot of people really struggle with writing the first draft and will actually never make it any further than this step. So we thought it would probably be a good idea. So she has some tips about how can you conquer that first draft?

Autumn (17m 20s):
Yeah, absolutely. And I actually, I have a quote to start this off with and I didn't even mean two. It was one, uhm, I was sharing with my parents. It's one of my favorite quotes and it's good for a lot of different things, but it's a is simply when all things are said and done, there is more said than done and that's actually a really old quote it's from ASAP. So human condition, it has not changed much in like 4,000 years, which is really sad. But yeah, I think that's a nice way to starting saying if you're talking about Writing, you should probably be WRITING. That was my excuse now. Y my social media is not always that good because that's talking and I like to do that's my experience.

Autumn (18m 3s):
Anyway.

Jesper (18m 3s):
I might actually be a topic for another podcast episode one day. Maybe it's just because before recording, actually, we, we were just talking about a social media efforts for authors and it was like, is it just a complete waste of time? And just spend the time writing and Stephen, I must say that I'm getting more and more inclined to say So, but

Autumn (18m 24s):
Yeah, I try and I try to think of it as a way of talking to readers. But again, so that could be a distraction. Maybe you should be working on your first draft,

Jesper (18m 33s):
But that's a, that's a detour. That's another topic for me

Autumn (18m 35s):
A lot of the day, but we'll have to wait that one down. Yeah, yeah,

Jesper (18m 38s):
No, it was just about to say if we don't ride it down and we'll forget it. Yeah,

Autumn (18m 42s):
Yeah. I will do. So one of us was responsible for writing that down after the Podcast.

Jesper (18m 47s):
Yeah. Yeah. That's how I would usually where you say one of us in the, nobody does it. That's how it works. Yeah.

Autumn (18m 52s):
Yeah. Well, it's earlier for me later for you. So I'll take responsibility. It'll be more my fault if we don't do it. Yeah.

Jesper (19m 1s):
Okay. I can live with that

Autumn (19m 3s):
So you can write, well, I'm hoping I love it. This one pretty wide open on things to discuss. So I'm guessing though, you have some specific tips, just, just a hunch.

Jesper (19m 17s):
I do. Yes. But I don't have them in any particular order of importance or anything like that. It's just, I'm a couple of things. So I think I have four Tips.

Autumn (19m 26s):
Oh, well this is not too bad.

Jesper (19m 30s):
No, its not too much either, but yeah.

Autumn (19m 32s):
Ooh. I think that's a good place to start. Well I think that's the, one of the most important things is a, if you can create this almost mind block that it is your first draft and it is only so big and you don't treat it like it's this overwhelming giant hurdle, it's it. That's not going to help you later. So four steps. That's not too bad. So let's see here the first one or one of the third one, whichever what order you want to start with? Yeah.

Jesper (20m 1s):
Yeah. Okay. Well the first one I call don't overthink it. Ah, yeah. Don't overthink it. I should put a space there. It's lame in the evening for me. Okay.

Autumn (20m 12s):
Yeah. I know you had a long day. You were up early. We've already. And we had a business meeting before the podcast recording so that everyone be nice to Jesper tonight.

Jesper (20m 24s):
Yeah. Well, okay. So this one is that it would really help you a lot if you are not approaching your first draft as if you are trying to write the next Lord of the rings. So something like that. Oh my gosh. You know, if you can just say, just accept that, what you write in your first draft will suck. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it will like your grandmother sold Success or something like that.

Autumn (20m 53s):
Yes. And this comes so, and that's a good thing. I wouldn't have to put it that it will suck, but that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

Jesper (21m 3s):
No, but it's, it's like, you know, if it's one of those cases again where your future self really hates your past self, because you will pass or fail, keeps passing shit on down the line.

Autumn (21m 18s):
Right. Because, but

Jesper (21m 19s):
I think this is one of the cases where you shouldn't be an asshole to you. If you just Self and just deal with the editing later, just to get the Writing John Dunn, it is Okay. That's why it's called a first draft because it's the first one and you are going to go through it multiple times. You're going to make it better and it is not supposed to be the final product. So please just don't overthink it and just write. Yeah. And don't care that it sucks.

Autumn (21m 49s):
No, no, no. And that's actually, I mean, we have it in the guide course. I'd have to admit, I didn't come up with this phrase. So I'm not taking responsibility for this one, but it was a, a published author who break and you know, a traditional published author who said, well, your goal when you're doing a first draft is to write a short, bad book. And I love that. And it was very clear. He was like, it's not to publish short bad book, but your goal is to write a short, bad Book. Because normally when you're editing, it's easier to add to it than to cut words. And you don't need to write a 120. If you make it your goal, 180,000 words that you are going to take forever to get there. If your goal is 80,000 words and you might accidentally write nine year old, that's OK.

Autumn (22m 35s):
That's not bad. Actually. That's perfect. Right? In the target and a short bite Book, you get it done. You can go fix it. You can't edit something that doesn't even an existing. Yeah. It just try not to do word vomit. I have a history of word vomit. We won't go there, but it would be a little bit more structure than word vomiting, but right. If you have to write it and I mean, I know you and I, especially our very first, if it's your very, very, very first novel, your debut novel, you'll probably end up rewriting the entire thing. I did mine three times and I still there's times I would have to go back. And now that I'm on Book 21, that I'm about to release.

Autumn (23m 16s):
I was so tempted to go back and change born of water, but it is what it is. It was my first book. And I have come a long way since then. And you'll feel the same way when you're way past book one. Yeah,

Jesper (23m 32s):
No, that's true. Yes. And I think that probably plays a lot into, to the second one I had listed because it's, well, maybe it's not in an entirely different point, but it's, it's sorta riffs off of what we just talked about as well, because it is really, I want to say, because I know I've said it before, so I guess I should keep saying, rather than changing my mind, like five episodes later than it is. Yeah.

Autumn (23m 58s):
I'm going to make this as a quote for you and give it to you or for social media at this point.

Jesper (24m 6s):
Mmm. But avoid editing as you go. And it is a bit of a tough one. I love that. But yeah, if you're trying to make everything sound perfect, then let's be honest. It won't never be perfect. And the other part is that you are wasting your time because you are until you get to the end and you start your editing phase. And during editing, you might discover that, Oh, actually this section here, it doesn't quite work. I need to pull it out. Maybe deleted. I need to re rewrite it or restructured slightly or something like that. And then you spend hours on making it sound perfect just to delete it later.

Jesper (24m 46s):
So it is just waste of time. And while I am also saying that it is a bit of a tough one, this one, because I know people, I don't have to have that full extent myself, but I have a little in it as well in my, in, in, in, in my mind as well that if I know something just sucks, I have a very hard time just leaving it alone. I feel like I need to fix it a bit. Just sort of, at least I'm not that I want to make a perfect, but at least not that I feel like it's okay now, and then I can move on. So, and if I don't do that, I keep thinking about it and it can not let it go. Yeah. So I noticed one is a tough one. And if you are one of those people who are also can't let it go, then I feel for you because I know what it's like a for example, now with the first draft that I'm writing for our joint Book, I've had to force myself not to charge it, just write it and send it to Autumn.

Jesper (25m 45s):
It's just gone, but not now, but yeah, well, Okay. That sounded wrong. But what I meant by that was really that the fact that I can email it off, actually empties it from my mind, because if, if it was my own and I have it in my file, and then I feel like going back to it, but as soon as I sent the email, then it sort of out of my studio, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. Even though it's still the same script in a file, but I don't know my mind is we had sometimes, but yeah.

Autumn (26m 12s):
I love human psychology. So I get that. Yeah. I know. That's, I mean, it's a waste of time. Like you said, you know, if you're writing something and you're editing it and you know, it is perfect. Especially if you get yourself in a cycle where your rights something, and you have self doubt, so you can go back and you can edit it and you rewrite and you just, just keep treading on that same path. And that's not going to get you to the end of the year's first draft. And then to, even if you just edited it a little bit, you get to the, you know, the next five chapters and you realize that, Oh, that was a whole tangent. This is where the Book starts. I'm cutting of that. Well, if you spent hours editing it, Oh, that was wasted time. But I do. I mean, like you were saying, I'm the same way I, if there's something that's atrociously wrong, it depends.

Autumn (26m 56s):
There's times I can like climb Maxine's and stuff. I feel like I've got to get it really kind of, all of those. There's so many pieces you'd need to get each one fit because then my next chapter might be a different characters point of view. And I need to know that what really happened. And so we're getting all that fitted in is important, but there's times sometimes the client plot holes, I have gone back and realized that was missing an entire character point of view, which it was a sub character, but it is important one. So it was that it ended up being three chapters. I had a rad, so there are times I will go back and edit while I'm writing. But there's also times where it's just like, Oh, thank gosh, Griffin never has a note section.

Autumn (27m 37s):
And I would just highlight, add a note, add a note. And I even keep a file. And my Scrivener is a whole folder of that just says, you know, no edits to, you know, notes for editing. And so I was like, make sure I put it in a way to make sure you added this and make sure you've had that. If I can find the exact chapter at that moment, I just put it in there and then I review it and I find it as it goes through because yeah, it's not going to be perfect. That's what editing is for is once you actually have the whole thing and you get to the end and you're like, Oh yeah, I had this vision that I wanted to add this other little thing and I never did well, now's your chance to go and add it. It's easier to thread that in than to stop what you're doing and go back and figure it out now.

Autumn (28m 23s):
Just don't do it.

Jesper (28m 23s):
Yes, indeed. So you were wanting me to continue my,

Autumn (28m 27s):
Yes, this was good. I like, I had like you steering, I'm a good navigator. You're a good driver. So it's fine.

Jesper (28m 38s):
Okay. So this one, well, I don't know if I have to keep saying this, but having an outline. So you know what to write really makes things that much easier. Yes.

Autumn (28m 51s):
Yeah. Oh definitely. I would have to put this one in there myself. Yeah.

Jesper (28m 55s):
Yeah. I saw that greatly with this suffered really bad, but this one in my first book, I wrote myself into a corner and the story just took a completely different turn and it became, it became something that sort of out of my control, all of a sudden, and I was like halfway through and I was looking at it like, what is this? This is not the story I want you to tell at all. So I think outlining really helped. Yeah.

Autumn (29m 25s):
Yeah. It helps a lot. I used to go to the same way. I was a, I have tried to pass my first novel and I think I got to chapter five or eight and they're kind of setting sail and they're going. I was just like, I don't cool. And that's what I, I was like I said, like characters got lost. I got lost. Yeah. I started at at least doing it minor outline. And that's when I discovered the seven stages of story structure and realized that, you know, all of these different combinations and it made it flow. I liked so much better than three or five acts. However you want to look at it. So that helps even, even to me like the book.

Autumn (30m 7s):
So I'm currently, it was Writing. The series is about to publish. I sometimes just doing a two or three sentence synopsis. And that to me is truly like you, you know, that is your instructions for the entire map. This is the whole point of the journey. And I would remember writing for revolution, which will be booked three in this series. And I have looked at it and go, Oh, okay. The outline is OK, but it doesn't even fit this. So I have to change either, either my synopsis was wrong or my outline is wrong. And so I had to rework things halfway through, which is when I realize that was missing the character as well. And it was just like, Oh, and once it all clicked into place is like, Darren, Okay, this is an awesome story. Now it makes more sense. So I have to admit, I know I have an outline.

Autumn (30m 48s):
I usually think it's fine. But when you start writing, sometimes you need to have something to check back and look at it and say, this is my guiding point. This is the entire, this was my thesis. So in my theory for this novel, is it still holding up in my holding true. And that way, every time you have a side plot or a little road off the highway, you, you can go, does that fit? Doesn't know. Yes, yes. And then you can keep going because it was, the characters will throw things at you. If you have good strong characters, they will try to take over and run with the story. And it's really fun. But sometimes they, especially, I'm writing about Fey in dark Fair or are you kidding? They just wanna go everywhere. Herding cats.

Autumn (31m 28s):
So, you know, it's a horrible, but yeah, it's definitely going to need to have a plot.

Jesper (31m 35s):
Yeah. But it's amazing how often one here that is, especially when people are starting out writing that that's really where they are so many people default too panting. They do and do no plan. And it's, it happens so often. It's incredible. I feel like that it should have one of those, you know, those labels from jackass over it, like don't try to shoot at home.

Autumn (32m 1s):
Yeah. I know. That's very true. And it's very rare for a novelist who has done three or four books to still be a solid pants are where it's like, I'd just make it up on the spot. Almost every one, by that point, it has started plotting or at least a little, I mean, sometimes for me, plotting is intro phase as a reaction phases and you know, just a quick list of things that happen. I've broken it down now where I have chapters and I'll have just, you know, two sentences for each chapter and I'll flesh it out more when I get to that chapter because things have changed before that, but it's still an outline. I still have 38 chapters and each of them has a few sentences. So I know what's happening when I get there, I've thought it out.

Autumn (32m 43s):
And you were a much stronger plotter, but yeah. Well, at the time you get through a few books in and you realize you do need to keep, you need to be in control, not let fate be your control.

Jesper (32m 55s):
Yeah. And, and a lot of the time you can find some middle ground. It, it's not that you, you know, that you have to be fully pantsing, everything or fully plotting everything. There is a lot of middle ground in between. And there's a lot to say either that the end point is bad either. But I think when we're talking about your writing, your first novel, your very first draft, please don't try to pass it. You know, maybe off the eight novels and you have, and you have sort of have the story structure intuitively ingrained in you. When you sort of know where you are going, then maybe you can fly it a bit more, but yeah, just don't do it the way it is.

Jesper (33m 37s):
It is. As I said, I don't try to shoot at home. Just don't do it.

Autumn (33m 41s):
Yeah. I agree. If I had a stamp, I would put it on the screen right now. I agree. Don't try that at home. You will be writing a first novel and never having written a novel before you are already feeling intimidated to have no guide. You don't even know what your ending point like to me to know that I have this many chapters than I am writing to this point. I almost always ad at least two, but still I know is going to be this long. And I know where I am in. It has huge. I have a timeline. I can tell you what I'm going to be done. I'm going to hit that to within like five days. I'm usually not later. Those are huge things to know, and to not know anything about writing and to be so completely lost with Book one, it's just not paying lost in a fog on a edge of a cliff.

Autumn (34m 27s):
And you just don't know where you are and you don't want to do that. So Have I have a string to hold on, to get at least a little bit of a plot going?

Jesper (34m 36s):
Yeah. And if you need some help, we do have a full step by step guide on both how to develop characters, how to develop character, arcs, how to do the entire plot of a novel. So yeah, if you need help in that department, there's lots of help to be happy. And you can pick up a guide book. I'll put a link to the plotting books in the show notes as well. If you want to check that one out, but it will basically take you through from start to finish so you can just follow it and I can promise you, you will be way, way better off than trying to fumble around it in the dark. Yeah.

Autumn (35m 11s):
Oh yeah. You won't be quite in the dark fog bank with no flashlight and no road that you'll have a much more guidance than that. Yeah.

Jesper (35m 22s):
Yeah. Okay. So I have one more and then, I don't know, maybe you have some of the other ones as well.

Autumn (35m 27s):
Yeah. We'll see. What else can I throw in the right now? I have to admit I'm having them as I've had had an office chair for so long. I am having the worst time. Not like swinging around in this thing. So I would love it place. Alright. So I'll have to try to stop spinning. Yeah.

Jesper (35m 45s):
Yeah. So it's still pay attention.

Autumn (35m 46s):
Oh, well that never works for me.

Jesper (35m 53s):
Okay. So this one is around waiting for the Writing fairy's to show up in the spring Hill day or a pixie dust before, are you feeling motivated or in the right mood? 'cause if that's what you're doing, then no wonder why the first draft is still not done.

Autumn (36m 10s):
Yeah. That's I think this is, what's becoming one of my pet peeves and I'm trying not to, because I understand the impetus to have it. And not every one wants to treat Writing as a business for some people. It really is a hobby that it makes them feel good. But waiting for inspiration. I think as I recently told someone recently, it was like, well, why did you find what inspires you and do that? And then go, right? Because if you're just gonna sit around and wait and it's like, what, what does that phrase? I was waiting for a water to boil it. Does it boil when you were watching it? You got it. You got to turn it on. You, you actually have to turn on the stove. So you got to turn on the inspiration to be inspired, to write.

Autumn (36m 54s):
And it's not going to come by sitting there staring at a cursor blinking either or being on social media.

Jesper (37m 1s):
Yeah, of course it made it. Well, yeah. You made a good point in saying that some people just, you know, it's just a hobby and if that's the case, then I think is fine. You know, if you just use doing it for the fun of it and you don't really care, if it takes you eight years, fine wait for the fairy dust to come and you know, that's fine. But, but at least if you want to have any commercial success from it, then you just have to prioritize Writing. And maybe, I mean, I understand the people who then might say, but I don't have time for it. I'm so incredibly busy. I understand that. I get it.

Jesper (37m 42s):
Trust me. I'm insanely busy, busy as well, but sometimes it's a matter of I'm. I think I've said on a previous podcast, a get up at five in the morning, if that's what you need to do and do an hour of writing while the house is quiet or maybe skip the Netflix show in the evening and do some writing time, whatever suits you personally, I, I functioned best. We created a work in the morning. So for me it works to get up early and then do the writing before I'd have to do other things because then I've got it in. And I also feel more content basically, because I feel like I achieve it today. So it's not done off the list I already had.

Jesper (38m 22s):
I'm already in control from the beginning, but I also know other people who prefer to work very late in the night and, and that's, you know, whatever works for you. But I think the point is just that you have to prioritize. Yeah.

Autumn (38m 35s):
Yeah, they do. And that's what always worries me about doing it at night or when you get home from work is it's so easy that life distracts you or pulls you aside, or you had a really busy day and you're tired if you put yourself first. I think that's incredibly empowering and it really does set your day. So I will, I am a morning person, sort of a, you know, compared to a lot of people, I have 6:00 AM. It was like fine. Five or 30 years. Yeah. It's a little early, but it's fine. But yeah, getting up, I mean, even though I'm technically a full time writer and artist and writing coach, I still get up before I check email even years Jesper as the way I usually check, just to see if he said anything.

Autumn (39m 16s):
I usually sit down without checking my email. I get my T I know breakfast. And I sit and I write for an hour or two or I'm editing for an hour or two. And that is how I start the day. And that's after that then, you know, and then we can eat, I can walk to the dog and all of those other things. So it just really sets the tone for my day. And I feel so good cause I put myself first and my own author platform First and my own ideas and my head first. And that's just fantastic until it keeps building and yeah. And it will percolate, percolate up all day. And then I feel so much more content focusing on other authors work because I know I put some stuff in it for me.

Autumn (39m 55s):
And that's wonderful.

Jesper (39m 58s):
Yeah. Plus just the satisfaction. I don't know if that's the right word, but it just feels very good when you know that I got my words In today and it was only eight in the morning. Like yes it is. It's wonderful.

Autumn (40m 11s):
Yeah, it is. It really is. I say, like I said, I've had to get it sets the whole tone for the day and it's every day that I hit those words or finish the chapter, I was working on editing and you feel that it's really coming together. That's a better day and you go through a more positive day and you spread more positivity and all my goodness, this world needs more of that. So I think it's very helpful, but no matter what I mean, waiting for inspiration, that was really the whole point of this one. If you're just waiting and that is what you want to do, you also want, at the time it comes, you fizzle out so quickly. You might be waiting for inspiration for what weeks, days, months. And it finally comes and you're writing stamina is what a thousand words, or if you're pushing yourself and trying to find things that inspire you, giving yourself some time, putting your dreams, putting some time and effort into that.

Autumn (40m 58s):
That's something that is your dream, which will make you feel more positive towards yourself. That way, if you do. I mean, even for you and I we're a professional writer is, but occasionally is not just sitting there and the key word and forcing yourself to do it. When those moments of true spark and inspiration come in and you're like pounding out the story and telling your kid's five minutes. And they know that means that like half an hour, don't touch, don't talk to you or you can go, you can put in chapters. It, it is amazing what you will we do when we're on, you know, caffeine acceleration. Oh my God, I have inspiration. I just don't bother me. You can whip out half the book's its fantastic. You won't get there if you're just waiting for inspiration and never put in any effort in between.

Autumn (41m 44s):
Yeah.

Jesper (41m 44s):
Yeah. And I think another way of putting it is basically just say that again, disregarding the people who just do it because it's a hobby then that's fine. But if we ignore those people for a moment here than it is a, a, another way of saying that Writing is also a job, you know, it's not all day. I'm sure that every morning when the Baker goes to his job, I'm sure he's not every morning for you. And I'm so inspired to break a baked bread today. Right? It does not happen every day. And he does it anyway because it was his job in the same thing with writing. It is certainly not all the time. When I sit down to write a chapter that I feel inspired for it certainly not all the time, but I ride it anyway and then push the shit down to the line to a future Self sort, this stuff out once you get that far.

Jesper (42m 37s):
But actually to be honest, once you then get to it later, you can't really distinguish why, where were you motivated and where we are not motivated because actually there's not that much of a difference in the thing.

Autumn (42m 50s):
There's I see some small differences when I'm really flowing and you know, I see like I'm adding in more sensitive, more senses, a little bit better description, but it all, you know, once you go through and edit from phase, you can't tell him no one, no one reader is going to say, Oh, you are just so inspired right now. You can't tell what they can tell is that I actually finished the book and got it to them. They know that, but yeah.

Jesper (43m 14s):
Yeah. But, and, and also if you did a proper job in your editing, you'll move everything up to the same standard anyways. So yeah, maybe if it was like, let's say there are 2% less editing in the motivating part, but the cast

Autumn (43m 31s):
Exactly. It's not that big of an issue. And the point is to actually do the book, get the, get that first draft done, then learned to edit it and you know, you'll have the manuscript ready to send out the readers and have that inspiration. Inspiration is great fun. We'll get into like the plotting because that's a really the best time to really work out what happens next. Do you need a lot of inspiration for some solid plotting? Yeah.

Jesper (44m 0s):
Yeah. So if I'm to put like some sort of conclusion on it, I would probably say that at the end of the day, everything that we talked about here, it really feeds into the fact that you have to find the process that works for you. It sounds Fair because we all have different. And I think there are some good pointers in what we said in terms of things that you need to think about, but how to actually apply. It is something that, where you need to think yourself as well and, and find your own way through it. But one thing I guess we can say is that the first draft becomes easier and easier over at the more times you have done it, the ETA it becomes.

Jesper (44m 45s):
And it doesn't feel like that big of a hurdle anymore. After a while, you know, it's, it's the only the beginning, the first Book, maybe two, two and a serious, at least that's a bit of a pain. So once after a while, then it does, it's not that big of a hurdle anymore. And it's still a massive undertaking just to write a first draft. I'd like, like we set up at the top of the Episode, most people don't even get that far. So if you could just get the first draft done, you already ahead of 90%. So, so it's a matter of a pushing through there. And, and the other thing that I, as I said before there, I think it was really important is that you are your first draft.

Jesper (45m 27s):
Isn't bad. It's just not edited yet. And that's all right, you don't have to go for perfection because if you keep trying, you'll never get to the end of the first draft of the first draft of a short bat Book, write the book. Then you can add to it. You can learn from it and get some feedback as an alpha Rita and mentor writing coach, if you really have doubts, but you need somebody to look at it, to grow from. So just write it fine, a few things that will work for you from what we've said, having like guideposts a synopsis, maybe using a story structure or something like that, that it can at least give you some guidance that you know, where your beginning, middle end and everything will be and right it, and just get it done.

Jesper (46m 11s):
And you will be so much happier to actually have done it and put yourself first. I will say that that that's something that you have to do at least one day a week, give yourself that. Okay. So next Monday, Autumn, we'll be back with a very interesting interview and a, she will be discussing the state of the industry and lots more like that.

Narrator (46m 34s):
If you liked what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 116 – Bookstagram & Book Marketing

You've probably heard of Instagram Influencers, but did you know there are book influencers there too?

We discuss what Bookstagrammers are and the age bracket of readers on Instagram. Because the best Bookstagrammers are passionate readers! Plus, we look into how to network with Bookstagrammers, some of the things they can (and can't) do for your book, and how to find the right Bookstagrammer for you.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from Writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (31s):
And I, I am Autumn.

Jesper (33s):
This is episode 116 of The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. And today we will have a conversation around waiting out to Book influences or Bookstagrammers I, if that's something we could call those people, they get your books. Yes. That will be interesting. It, it will be like Instagram.

Autumn (55s):
Well, I usually like Instagram, but we'll get it into that later. I had a cup last week and nothing. I did nothing I touched or broke, but I did notice a neutral ground at the end now we'll get there. And so how are things for you?

Jesper (1m 14s):
It's a good, I was actually out with my youngest son for, to soccer practice for the first time in a very, very long time today to, to, you know, the Corona lockdown. Yeah. And that was pretty cool at the time. It got pretty cold, pretty fast. I must say that's too funny. I suppose what's the word it's still spring, but it can't be that bad over there. No. Well, the temperature just drop really fast to all of a sudden, you know, We was M I think when we went, there was probably like 10 degrees Celsius and then one and a half hour later, when is the training finished?

Jesper (1m 57s):
It was a two degrees and I was, and I was standing still. Of course you were just standing there watching it, right. So it's standing still for one and a half hours or while the temperature just drops it. Well, it becomes pretty cold after a while. It's probably a better to be the referee and be like running around and keeping warm much better. Yeah. Much better. Yes. And shouting at people and stuff like that. A little, keep your adrenaline going. Oh, geez. Yeah. Well, you know, you've got to get your exercise, your, a cheer for your son, even though it was just practiced. So it was in a game, but still you can be out there shouting. No, no, no, no.

Jesper (2m 37s):
I don't think that's good. I mean, it's some, some parents just don't know how to control themselves, honestly. And there's just let, let them have fun. Let them play why'd you have to stand up and shout at them. So that's not just the U S trait that's that's over in the European union too.

Autumn (2m 52s):
That's good to know that it was just as crazy as Americans.

Jesper (2m 56s):
Yeah. It's not good. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, It should also mention a name because the PODCAST people can see this, But something new. We've actually, we started recording videos as well, while we are recording this podcast episodes. So, so if anyone wants to, wants to see us then a head on over to the Am, Writing Fantasy, YouTube channel, Autumn. I, No it's Yes. Our, how we do record, these has changed in their offering video. And last week we, we could have done last week, but I was still under an old modem that had a three megabyte upload speed.

Jesper (3m 38s):
I am in a really rural area, rural cellphone internet, but we just got five G modem. And it actually is just the fastest internet we've ever had. So I'm feeling pretty good. And, and it's a working. I didn't send it up to my husband. Did I didn't touch it? He won't let me. So this was the big rollout, which is pretty good timing.

Autumn (4m 5s):
We only missed one potential episode that we could've recorded with a video. So it's not too bad.

Jesper (4m 13s):
Yeah. So the Am Writing Fantasy, YouTube channel will show the video feed as well. If anybody interests. I don't know. I can't see why anybody would be, But, but if they are then that's it.

Autumn (4m 28s):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm in my husband actually. He's been complaining. I was like, I don't think I like YouTube videos that, or just static images and, well, I'm not saying anything like that. That's ours, but now it isn't. So that's a good thing.

Jesper (4m 42s):
Yeah. Yeah. So anything else going on on your side?

Autumn (4m 48s):
Well, everything, everything. I mean, I, I, I feel like, you know how it is when you, things just aren't going well. And I feel like I was stuck and I'm just sitting there spinning my wheels and grinding the gears and whatever was holding me back. I was just trying to move an inch, but whatever it was holding me back, let me go. And instead of just moving an edge, I got Slingshot it to like the next state. And suddenly my life goes from like, just trying to get one thing done to suddenly like 20 things coming at me. And it's good. It's good. But it's just suddenly I can't keep up with suddenly everything that's coming towards me. A little things I'd said in motion ages ago when I was just trying to move that a little bit of an edge.

Autumn (5m 31s):
So I, I think of it, it it's like playing a game of catch up, but your opponent or your cooperator as invisible in there throwing hot rocks in and just grasping in air and hoping to stay afloat. But yeah, so it was a total change and I haven't broken anything and suddenly things are working well, and that's a good thing, but I'm not caught up yet.

Jesper (6m 0s):
Yeah. Well, sooner or later, right?

Autumn (6m 4s):
Yeah. As I said, my tombstone will say to be continued.

Narrator (6m 7s):
A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (6m 12s):
Sorry. I started the sound of it too early there, but I have in mind. So just a last reminder here, if you didn't pick it up from last week's episode, we are currently running as a special off on Patrion. Yes. Which is fantastic. We hope you will come in and join us over there. At least come and check us out for just a dollar a month. You can join us and help support this podcast, which we definitely appreciate. Nothing's free. I mean, the software we use for uploading and recording and hosting it all costs a little bit. So every bit helps us afford that. So if you like us Patriana is one way of not only helping to support us, but getting something back, especially right now during these special sign up offers.

Jesper (7m 3s):
Yeah. So for a limited time, everyone who joins us on Patrion will get some extra prices on top of the ones that we already offer. Each one of the different T levels. So every one, and that includes the existing patron supporters will get an e-book of our, a guide that is called a plot development, which is an end to end on a walk through step by step on how to develop a platform novel and also develop the characters and the character arcs. And we will also make a draw. Yes. One lucky winner will get to have a mentoring session by session with both of us on something.

Autumn (7m 48s):
I assume it'll be on the books. I hope they get their writing publishing. I don't know if we did we limit from what you're mentoring session could be a line. I can do a small house building, but hopefully, hopefully it'll be on the close and learning how to swim a mile. Oh, you have to be a referee as a soccer coach. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we can do it a few things. Yes. We have to travel the world, but how to behave yourself would be better. It won't be good at it that way. So that it'll be fun. I mean, if it gets one on one coaching, so that it'll be fantastic.

Jesper (8m 31s):
Yeah. So in a shorter has never been a better time to sign up to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST and right now, but you will need to be quick about it. 'cause this special offer ends on the 22nd of March. So as always, you will find the links to patron in the show notes.

Narrator (8m 53s):
Yeah. And on to today's topic.

Jesper (8m 57s):
Okay. So what are we talking about here?

Autumn (9m 2s):
We are talking about Instagram, which Okay. True confession for you. How often are you on Instagram?

Jesper (9m 9s):
I don't even have an account.

Autumn (9m 12s):
What is the wait? Was I supposed to prepare something for today? A Yes. Do we need to cut it now? So you thank you. And that was it. Oh, you know, I'm good at my hope. You're not alone. This is, I know. So I don't even have an account, but you've seen Instagram. Right. You know, you, you can look at it and you can see it from computers, other places, even if you don't have an account. So I'm hoping you might be seen an Instagram post before.

Jesper (9m 48s):
No. Or yes,

Autumn (9m 51s):
but mostly you can't see much to be honest because of your, if you click on it an Instagram post and you don't have an account, you can see the image, but then it will just ask you to log in. So you can really do anything. You, you could just see the image. So that's more or less of a, I think before Facebook bot, you could actually see the posts and everything. It was more like Twitter where you could actually follow it and see it. I remember seeing websites that would have all of their Instagram images. So yeah. I could see Facebook. Maybe we missed it up a little bit, but we won't go there.

Jesper (10m 24s):
But No.

Autumn (10m 25s):
So Instagram, I have five minutes. So maybe it's been one of my favorite social media platforms of probably in the last couple of years. I used to be a big on Twitter. Twitter. I've never liked Facebook, but Instagram. I like, so I don't mind talking about this one.

Jesper (10m 43s):
No. And I think we will see how we get to it, but I would like to have some thoughts, at least around the effectiveness of it all as you see it. Yeah. No, no, but maybe we will get to that. I don't know.

Autumn (10m 59s):
But, but yes, definitely. Well, I think we should start with, for anyone else, not familiar with it. If you're looking at maybe trying out Instagram, so Bookstagram is a hashtag on Instagram and it just one of many hashtags that are out there. I mean, some of the others Bookstagrammer, which you did come up with that is correct. There. Everyone who does a Bookstagram is a Bookstagrammer there's books, books, books, and reading, live Book, life books of Instagram, readers of Instagram. There's all of these hashtags and Instagram is different because you can follow hashtags just like people. So you can follow your Bookstagrammer.

Autumn (11m 39s):
As you can follow Fantasy Readers, you can follow FANTASY readers. That's a good one to follow. And then you can interact, you know, find a new post to people you don't even follow well by following the hashtag. And so that's what a Bookstagram is that it gives you an idea. So it's a very active, you might be surprised. There's a lot of readers. There's a lot of active Book audience on Instagram, and there are geared towards a younger, you know, it's mostly thirties and younger. So if you are a Y a or if your target audience is a younger crowd, this is a good place to hang out and get to know people because they tend to be friendly.

Autumn (12m 21s):
And, but yeah, it's fun, but there's definitely some Instagram rules and ways of approaching. If you want to use it as an advertising platform, there's definitely some, some ways of doing it in some ways of not doing it. Of course.

Jesper (12m 40s):
Okay. We definitely need to get into some of those, but, but it basically, so it's basic, it's basically like Book tubers, but just on Instagram is, is it's a sort of the same thing, right? Yeah.

Autumn (12m 53s):
Yes. Not that I, I don't do videos, so I don't know anything about Book tuber as we do that PODCAST. It is all on. Okay.

Jesper (13m 5s):
Yeah. But, but a Book, tube be is this, usually those people on YouTube who will review books and then talk about what they felt about the book and, and so on and so on. But I don't know how much they do have that on, on instinct.

Autumn (13m 17s):
Yeah. It depends. And that's, what's really the key. So I think most people hear about Instagram influencers. I mean, they've been targeted by, you know, some Instagram influencers have millions of followers and they make lots of money by reviewing products or promoting products, right. On their channel. For some reason, Instagram, it's sort of Okay to be a promoter, like a lifestyle promoter. Instagram is more selling a lifestyle than a specific thing. So if you are a Bookstagrammer, you're selling a lifestyle of reading Fantasy and being a huge Fantasy fan.

Autumn (13m 58s):
And that's one of the key things to remember. I mean, they can have thousands of followers. They can have lots of comments and it's great to interact with them. So they are Influencers. But I think what are the biggest take-aways is that these are people who are serious and professional about building a brand, just like we, as authors are serious and professional about building our brands. So you're coming, and this was not a book reviewer. It was a blog that you were just like, Hey, give you a free Book. Well, you look at my book. This is someone who has spent sometimes hundreds of dollars to buy little props for their images. They have a whole look, they have a color scheme, they have a genre, they have something about them that is really that there they're trying to sell and promote as well as gain new followers.

Autumn (14m 44s):
And you're kind of tapping into someone, especially the upper tier ones that these are the people that are professional about this. You have to treat them as an equal and not as like, yeah, just give me a free book to me as I mentioned. Okay. So there, you should be a little more serious and especially Instagram, it is all about the image. They, there are some people who do videos and so you will get stories. There's Instagram stories that they only last for 24 hours and you will get them. There can be only 15 seconds. And so maybe you'll get them holding up your Book and they'll see a little blurb about it and then it'll be gone or they can do a post about it. And for that, they usually do the pictures and the little, I mean, it's, there are some of the top tier Bookstagrammers, Oh my goodness.

Autumn (15m 26s):
I want to, I don't know how many props and things they have that you have worn, especially the ones that are in a fantasy genre. Dragon's and one's and Crystal's and sparkly lights. And it's just crazy what they have on it. It makes me want to have a bigger cabin every time we see them.

Jesper (15m 49s):
Yeah. But I also think that its, it made us a lot too as well as you know, I think you've probably alluded to it, their right. But I would think that they met us a lot to get the right type of influencer in a, it it's not like a one size fits all thing. You need to find somebody who, who loves your showing. Right. And caters to that type of audience, I guess. Right?

Autumn (16m 12s):
Yeah. Absolutely. And that's one of the things, I mean, if you just ha you know, look at the hashtag Bookstagrammer or follow it, the top nine posts on any hashtag you look at are the top nine trending, you know, like when you go into Twitter and it tells you like the trending posts on the side, it's sort of the same thing on Instagram, you get a block of nine and those are the top ones at that moment in that hashtag. And you can look through them in Bookstagrammer is great, but that is specific to the books, but it's not specific to your genre. So you do need to do some research. Like I noticed right now, a Sarah J mass just released I'm a core to silver flames, which is the next Birt book in her crown of thorns and roses series.

Autumn (16m 55s):
And so I have seen a lot of people who was posting pictures with that book, I'm doing a little review saying where they are in their reading it, what they are thinking of. It there's tons of posts. But if you read through them, you'll see a few people say I never read Fantasy, But I read this one. 'cause it is a popular Book. And people are trying to build their brand and build their number of followers. By saying, I'm reviewing this really popular book. Well, that's not a reason to go and ask them if they'll review your book. If they typically do not read Fantasy, you want to burrow down. You want to read through some other posts. In fact, when the best things you can do is spend some time, you know, follow the Bookstagrammer comment on some of their other post. So they know who you are before you do as spam, you know, a private message saying, Hey, will you do read my book too.

Autumn (17m 41s):
You want to get to know them a little bit, see what they're going to offer you. You know, some people you see on Instagram is really interesting. You can't post live link in a post. And so that's one of the fun things. So you can't really sell anything unless you're doing advertising, unless you put it in your bio link. So you need to see how do they promote these books, you know, just because they do a review, what does that going to be by you? Is that going to have their audience really excited? Or will they be able to post a link for something for you or at least have a tag You so that they will go and follow you and you'll get a whole bunch of new followers. That's not a bad outcome because then you can offer them all your new followers.

Autumn (18m 22s):
Hey, look at my link. Here's a freebie, go follow it. So there's, you've got to be strategic. You can't just say, Hey, I'm going to go get a Bookstagrammer to review my book and it's going to do X. You got to figure out what your X is before you go in and find your own Bookstagrammer.

Jesper (18m 40s):
Yeah. And nobody likes to be asked to fave out of the blue, by somebody who, who, who, who they have no idea who it is. Right? I mean, nobody likes that. So the starting, starting of building a relationship in, in advanced is very important, I think. But I'm also thinking that going off to the top tier ones might not be very useful,

Autumn (19m 3s):
But I think if you want it to go for a top tier one, I would say start maybe your first one to start lower, start with someone who has a moderate amount of followers who is willing to work for you or work with you. But definitely if you're going to come from the top tier one is you kind have to have your, you got to have a platform. You've got to have a really gorgeous book, cover. Remember pictures are everything on Instagram, the posts or nice. But it's the picture that really is the most popular thing that people are scrolling through Instagram four. So if you don't have a pretty cover know, and the fact is most of these, Bookstagrammers the big ones. They have these bookshelves and the size of rooms.

Autumn (19m 43s):
Or again, I am so jealous. They have the organized by color or some of them have them all white. Its just crazy. The amount of time is spent organizing they're books. But think of it, there are real books. They like Real books. So you needed to be offering it. Maybe you can offer a, someone of free ebook, but there are probably going to want to pay per pack. And they're going to respond a lot better if your offering a free paperback. So you're probably, unless you got some money, which if you do it, I don't know why you are trying to hunt down. Bookstagrammers there's other ways of, you know, advertising than, than this. You probably don't want to be sending out like 30 or 40 or 50 paperbacks. You going to have to choose just a couple of grab five paperbacks, choose five.

Autumn (20m 25s):
Bookstagrammers call that a success because they're going to want paper is going to sound a much better off. Or if you can send them a paper bag because they are going to want that for their photo.

Jesper (20m 38s):
Yeah. No. And that, that definitely makes sense. But, but then again, I, well it is because I'm not into this world. Right. But my thinking is just, well they want a photo. So a ebook cover is that's a photo, right? What's what's the problem. But I guess it's because they, they are taking photos for themselves and styling and all that kind of thing, I suppose right now.

Autumn (20m 60s):
Yeah, it is. And it's harder. The most covers you see of like eBooks or iPads with a book cover photo or not actually on the image because of the screen reflection and everything else. Usually those are all digitally altered images and yet to get their prompts and everything else there are, they usually want the paperback. There are pretty old-school, especially the Fantasy ones I have noticed. They really liked it. A real books. They want to hold it up a real book. They want to hold up an iPad or a phone. They want something really pretty.

Jesper (21m 33s):
Yeah, no, I know. I see the same thing goes for the Book tubers as well. They also want the physical, but in that case I really understand it because they are talking to camera. So they want to be able to show it to the camera that it is this book. Right. So I understand that. But yeah, the Instagram stuff is still weird to me because you could just download the app, the book cover image, right. And then you could do for them and manipulation and do whatever. What never mind I was just me. I know it. It's just me. So just ignore my comments. Yeah.

Autumn (22m 5s):
Yeah. Well, it was funny because I don't have a big staging area when I do my images on Instagram, I often are. I am often photo manipulating things and putting them in places that I don't actually have. So I get that, but that's not the brand that most of the Bookstagrammers are, they are doing for authentic. This was their Real house. This was their Real reading room and they are really readers' and they're really serious readers. So they want the real deal. That's just the way it goes. Authenticity is the key and they want to show it off.

Jesper (22m 36s):
No, that's fair enough. But how do you, how do you see the time investment and this stuff? Because what if we are saying, number one, you said you have to build the relationship with these people in advance. So of course that takes a bit of time. So I I'm automatically, they are already thinking that you should probably do this if you like the Bookstagrammer stuff any way. So if it's like, Oh, I love this anyway. I'm it would not be something like if, if I was the one, I probably would not give myself the advice to say start billing relationship with these people. 'cause I don't really like, it's not that I dislike it, but I don't find any pleasure in going on to Instagram and finding pictures and following these people and why I don't enjoy it.

Jesper (23m 23s):
So wouldn't it be better just to say it didn't don't do it. I am always thinking like, isn't the advice to say? You should only do it if you like it already or what, what, what do you think

Autumn (23m 35s):
If you like it already? Or if it's your audience, if your audience is younger, if your audience is going to like Bookstagram or Bookstagrammers even if you hate, then it might be a good thing to give a try because I mean, maybe you have to do a follow a books, a couple of Bookstagrammers you have to narrow it down, talked to them for a week or two and three or maybe a month. But again, you'll have to do what every single day you stop in once or twice a week to talk to them and see what they're posting comment on their posts for a month and then private message him and saying, Hey, I really like what you do. I love your look. I love the books are review. I write something similar. I will give you a free paperback. If you are willing to, you know, look at mine and review it.

Autumn (24m 18s):
And by the way, here is a link to the actual, you know, the e-book so that you can see what you are getting into or even a blurb, or I'll give you the book, if you want to read it first so that, you know, you, you, you know, you will like it or at least a sample. So you want to, at least you don't build up some kind of a relationship with the stuff you gotta be like months in. And you're talking to him for every day for hours on end. You know, it does not take long to go on to Instagram and do a post, especially if you're following a few specific people.

Jesper (24m 47s):
Yeah. Okay, fine. So that the answer, but then I have, and then I have another, another critical question. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have to be the critical voice today. So let's say let's okay. Let's try and say, you don't have to overdo the engagement and, and all that. So it's not too much work, but then what is the actual likelihood of them are actually saying yes, because Mr. Nobody comes in and say, Hey, can you please, would you mind the reviewing my book or whatever, or, or whatever, you know? I mean, I understand when you say is Sarah J math and stuff like that?

Autumn (25m 30s):
No, no, of course. Yeah, of course. She's going to get Bookstagrammers to, to, But, or a Stephen King or a brand and Sanders in whatever write, but what about the rest of us and models? Is it, is it even possible, do you think? Oh yeah, I definitely think it's possible. I having been there and around me as a reader or some of these readers, I mean, they are professional readers. I, they can read a book on a day and so they need a lot of books and a lot of them do like two, some of them that's the thing is to go to books, book sales, and find books that they prefer it. Some of them happily take other books. Again, it's all about finding out which ones are going to be more open to you in some of them might say, no, it's just not my cup of tea, but a lot of, a lot of them are like books, even if it's for a proper, even if they might not get to it for a month or so, you know?

Autumn (26m 15s):
No, but I think they will be, if you have a nice cover, if you are a good enough writer, you know, if you can entice them, I think you'll be fine. But if you have maybe only one book out or, and it seems that you did the cover yourself, they might politely say no, so you have to do a watch that. Mm. And I definitely, I think it's important to note that, I guess. Yeah.

Jesper (26m 40s):
Yeah. Go ahead. No, I'm sorry. Yeah, there is a bit of a delay here, so sorry for that. So I didn't pick up the day you start at the talking, but the way I was just wondering as well that I guess they don't really mind how much or how little of an audience you have then, because from their point of view, the main thing that they want is just the free book. And they want some let's call it content that they can produce and by reading the book. Right. So, so they don't really get to that as long as the book looks wonderful. And it is when it in, within the stuff that they like to read already, then I guess they don't really care if you have a, you know, your aunt and your brother following you on Twitter, or if you have a, a, a 125,000 people following you, I guess they don't really care.

Autumn (27m 33s):
I don't think it does. I mean, it would probably be helpful if you can then promote, you know, cross promote them or offer them some kind of cross promotion in some way. But a lot of them, yeah, they're looking for content. They are looking for nice pictures, are good books to review, and you're basically maybe offering them something, you know, a free meal and as a selection that maybe they wouldn't have found, otherwise they might be happy about it. So it's not about, it's not something that they're going to just out and out, refuse. Not everyone. Some are going to have some, you know, like the reading and learn to be read pile might be a mile long and there just like, no, no, no. More as the one thing about reader's they tend to always won another book. Don't we always, yeah.

Jesper (28m 18s):
Yeah, because that's, that's basically my fear and all of this is that they might easily say, yeah, sure. Send it to me. But they have like a to be read pile. That is so weird because I imagine a lot of people will be doing this. Right. A lot of people will reach out to them and maybe they would just say, yeah, sure, no problem. And send it to me. And then it goes into the pile and not to say that they'll never get there, but it is, well, what if it takes a year before they get to your book? Right? I mean, is it been worth it? Yeah. Well, of course that'll be a nice once they get to it, but maybe that was not quite the point. Maybe you release the book and you wanted it to give a bit of a boost in and then a year that, well, then you could say to get some more books a year later, but it, is it more sounds like you needed to be aware of your, let's say strategy here or are you set your expectations, right.

Autumn (29m 15s):
Definitely. I think it's, you need to stay, you need to be clear when you are a private message to them and saying, I have a book that's a new release or that I'm looking to promote in June, just be clear. And like I said, do you need to know what you're going to get? Why are you approaching this Bookstagrammer or is it because they are incredibly popular or because you think they have an audience that you would like to get into or are they going to tag you because you're not going to get a free link that anyone who reads that post we'll have to go and probably search your book, or if they get, if you get tagged, they can go and follow you and read your bio and maybe find out where you are giving away at your freebie, because you only have one link.

Autumn (29m 57s):
So those are the things to keep in mind that you don't have much of a, you know, there is not a big advertising things. So you have to be really clear on what you're expecting. If it is it going to be followers to come and follow you, or you're going to have a sale, that's going to go with this book. Then you need to tell the Bookstagrammer, Hey, I'm planning on doing this. Would you be willing? Is that something you want to work together and do? Or you can do this review. And when you do the review, I'm going to give you five eBooks that you can give away for free, as well as part of your platform. This is a lot of things that you can make up and that they can do as well. And that's, that is not an atypical and Instagram. They can do.

Autumn (30m 38s):
A lot of people do like, Hey, I'll choose five people from my comments to give him a private message. You a link to get a free book. People do comment and giveaway is a lot on Instagram. Its like tag follow a comment and then we'll give away a Book and team up with the big Bookstagrammer or, or even a modern Bookstagrammer. I do that with you. It can benefit both of you. You are giving them something to give away for free. They're getting content and also building their own platform. And you're going to cross post. And if your audience likes Instagram as a younger audience, this can be a really fun. You can have fun with it. I think that that's the thing to remember is just Instagram. It's a lifestyle.

Autumn (31m 18s):
And so you're selling, reading your selling fun and adventure and you love your readers'. Those are the vibe's you should be giving out with your post and with your offer. And if you do that, I think you will get a good response if you're, you know, just saying, Hey, here's my freebie. I think you'll like it, you should read it. You're probably going to hit a brick wall and not a problem.

Jesper (31m 46s):
Yeah. And I think so too. And well, I guess it's a, it's up to people to try. I mean, why not? You, you can try it out. It, it doesn't cost you anything to send an email or contact these people. So in that sense you can try it out, But I'm still here. Yeah. I was still thinking that it might be more difficult than you think

Autumn (32m 8s):
You challenging me to go give this a try aren't you?

Jesper (32m 13s):
Yeah. Yeah. Try it out and see how many new people you can actually get to say. Yes. Because I, I, no. Okay. Let me, let me, let me rephrase that. I think you can get people to say yes, But I'm not So sure that they will get to it in, within the timeframe you would like them to.

Autumn (32m 32s):
That will be, it would be an interesting topic. But I think again, it comes down to like, especially like right now I'm releasing a whole series. So I know I'm going to be releasing books from here till June. If I could sit up a Bookstagrammer even when the final book that they are going to maybe read one or two of them are, maybe I'll get them all in the series. That's not, as you planning ahead, it's like planning ahead. All of your advertising. You're not expecting an immediate thing. I mean, they are going to have to reach, you have to ship the book, you know, they have to read it or they have to post it. So it might not happen. But I think being clear, a lot of these. Yeah. Like I said it to them, this is the professional level of business. So if they are not being clear and concise and can you give you a time frame, then move on to someone who can give that to you.

Autumn (33m 16s):
Not, you don't want little, Oh, you know, it looks good. I'll get to it sometime in 2020 for you, you know, you definitely want to pin it down. And to me the biggest hurdle, a in the pet challenge, I see, I mean, I do like Instagram, but I do see problems because it is constantly changing. Facebook does own it now in Facebook likes to change things quite a bit. Yeah. And they love that. Yeah. And so it, it keeps changing. Like when you first, when I first joined Instagram, you never saw a promotional post or, or you could see one every 20 or 30 and then they changed it to like one every third post became promotional and then they could have three together and then they stop doing that and they changed how you do it.

Autumn (33m 60s):
But it is, it can there's days that I go on there and I'm like, I just can't take that. And then last week, of course, when we are, we're talking now, I'm, it will have been two or three weeks ago. I went on an all of these cross posts from tick-tock and I'm not on Tik TOK for a purpose. I don't really like video. I don't want to do a tock. It's not Instagram. And Instagram tends to be static images. They have some video, but it's, you know, Instagram TV never took off. It's not a big thing. So most of the video are very small or some, a little blurry images that are moving a little bit. And suddenly there's all these cross-post from Tik TOK that were one nut format it to the Instagram size, which is 1400 by 1400.

Autumn (34m 42s):
So there are odd sized stretched wrong. And I just couldn't take it. I'm on there for the pretty pictures to talk to authors. I like to have conversations in suddenly all of these people doing Tik TOK stuff. It was just like, I'm done. I didn't even look at it the rest of the day. So, you know, if you give a book to somebody, I don't know what Instagram will look like in six months. It as much as I hate to say it, but I don't know. It could change hugely because every once in a while, if Facebook decided to roll out on a massive change, the Instagram and there's usually an uproar and then they bring it back a little bit, but it's not owned by the original founders who had the vision for it that I used to be.

Autumn (35m 25s):
So it is changing constantly. And so there is that. So if you do a giveaway, it somewhat a book and they say, I'll read it in eight months. It might be fine. Last year we could have hit the earth by too. So I don't know.

Jesper (35m 42s):
No, that's true. But, but I actually, I was actually thinking while you were talking that that might be THE, so to speak easiest way of getting mileage out of Instagram would be to basically just reach out to, let's say new Bookstagrammer like once a week, every two weeks are once a month or whatever. And they don't care about when they get to it, But, but just sort of get the wheelchair and

Autumn (36m 9s):
Just turning it off. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Jesper (36m 12s):
Yeah. And then eventually something will pop out here and there that, that then they got to it. I mean, that could be a way where I think it could be working, but I'm more of a much more hesitant if you have deadlines and you need it within this timeframe. And so I think that will be difficult, especially if you're talking about maybe not the low grade Influencers. I, but if it's a Influencers with a big following who does this as a professional level, they will not, you know, buy to your time scale that you will have to abide to Dez. Yeah. And, and, and that means that maybe you have to wait 10 months or whatever, but if you keep feeding the monster, as you say, every week or every second week, or once a month or whatever, you have the time for it, and it's something that will trickle out down the road.

Autumn (36m 58s):
Right. So, so that might be something that could be worth it.

Jesper (37m 3s):
Absolutely edit it to me. And the other only caveat I have is that you're building a platform on someone else's platform and you and I have discussed this a lot, especially recently. Yes. And so that's a great, if you give 50,000 Instagram followers and you become your own influence or an author influencer, that's fantastic. I don't know many author Influencers other than the really big names that have that many followers. I mean, it seems a lot of them cap out at the 5,000 to 10,000. There's a few who get a little bit higher, but I think that's a great, but I have to admit, I spent a lot of time last week formatting some images to like do a character or a lot of people, sometimes format some stuff for like character introductions or a cover reveals, you know, they do all of these things and it's great.

Autumn (37m 53s):
And then I feel like it's gone in, or, you know, it'll be on my feet for a while, but it essentially, if I post once a day or a couple of times a day, it's gonna trickle down really quickly. And I ended up taking the images and putting it on my blog and spreading that out too, like Amazon and good reads and all these other places that I think it, it did a lot better in, by being on my blog. It will last a lot longer. I got up, I, I sent it out to my pore subscriber's that I have neglected recently. So I do think it is one thing to consider that, like, what are you doing on Instagram and how is it helping your platform? Yeah. It's great to build something there, but how are you going to convert them into readers?

Autumn (38m 34s):
And if Instagram changes hugely, how are they going to find you so that, you know, they're on your mailing list? Or do they know where your website is so that they can go and find you because you know, Facebook used to be the big thing and maybe it still is, but I think it's tanking Twitter. I used to, I have, I have so many followers on Twitter, but I have not been active really on that platform for a long time, because it's just changed too much. And I'm not that interested in. I have to have been like, Oh, I'm a graphic designer. I like pretty pictures. I tweet don't do forums. That's just pictures. I don't know.

Jesper (39m 9s):
Yeah. Yeah. But getting people from those platforms, whatever, whichever one is that you're using it in this case, in a Instagram, getting them off of there and onto your email list is absolutely key. I mean, years ago I wrote a book about how to use Twitter as an author and a low and behold, like six months after I published that book, Twitter changed the, a in terms of conditions so that the strategy that I was using to actually get people off of Twitter and on to the email list, stop working.

Jesper (39m 48s):
So that's the thing that you all are. I think you always just have to keep in mind with the stuff that if you are not funding the funneling them away from the platform and onto your email list, it could go away tomorrow. And then when I say that, I also know that many people will think, yeah, but that's not really going to happen. I mean, what about YouTube and people who have been YouTube has for years and years and years, and now you're on a living and that's true. Yes. But sometimes it happens and maybe it hasn't happened yet. And maybe it won't happen for the next two years. Who knows? I don't know. But I'm assuming that the being an author means that you want to build a lifetime career out of this.

Jesper (40m 31s):
And one thing I can say for sure is that Instagram will change over the next 50 years. It will not be the same. So if, if that's the only place where you have your audience, you have an issue. Yes. All right. And that was also the people at some point that we built the entire business spaced on a Google apps and stuff like that. And then at some point Google changed how Google ads worked, worked at, and they didn't pay out affiliates at the same level anymore. And so on. So on and people's business stuff from basically overnight, right. From one way to the next. So it's not to sort of paint a doomsday picture out of things, but I think it is important to be mindful that it's only when you have the control over the customer data, that you can build a proper sustainable business because otherwise you will always be dependent on the Well womens and ideas about THE, whatever the other is this the same thing with Facebook, right?

Jesper (41m 35s):
I mean, a lot of authors at the moment are selfish, inclusive, inclusive, eh, has a quite big audiences maybe in Facebook groups and stuff like that. And if that's the only place where you have them, you, again, you have an issue. So yeah, I think this sort of stuff is really, really important. All right.

Autumn (41m 55s):
Yeah. I agree. And that's why, you know, it's definitely got me thinking again that making sure your, your core, your, the stuff you own, like your own website, your own blog, make sure that that's solid and growing and push out to the other platforms, you know, reuse your posts or one of the, I still love that about blogs. I mean, you can list, you can link your website, blog to your Amazon profile, to your good reads profile. You can spread that out to your Twitter, to your Facebook. You can link it to your Instagram, but you can find ways of cross posting it. I know that you use a, a, a social post or I use I'm a social pilot. There are ways of pushing out, even in a blog post, even if the link isn't live, you can kind of, if you have an easy website, which is the whole purpose of having a website name is that it's easy to type.

Autumn (42m 43s):
You can send people back over to it. And so, you know, making sure that you're generating those links to come back to where your core, your center core that has strong, that you own is, is really the best use of your marketing time. Rather than sitting there on Instagram for hours and hours of sitting on Facebook for hours and hours. That's one not helping you right now. And two, it's not a platform you Oh. And so at the end of the day, those people could disappear overnight. If something changed in the platform. I mean, everyone says that about Amazon and that's one reason I'm wide. And your wide is that if something happens on Amazon where it's not our only basket of eggs, but I really do believe that.

Autumn (43m 26s):
I mean, I don't just talk That I, I walk that way.

Jesper (43m 32s):
Yeah. Yeah. And we also had an, I don't remember the episode number anymore, but people can search for it, but we had Joanna Penn on and on a past episode as well, where we talked about diversifying your income and that's exactly what it is so important. And she, she was a big advocate of that as well, to make sure you don't have all the acts in one basket because it's going to hurt one day. If that's what you do, maybe not now, maybe not next five years, but one day it will hurt. So yeah. I try always to diversify, making sure that you control your audience, meaning that you have them on an e-mail list so that you, no, that no matter what happens with Facebook or Instagram or whatever, you have a way to contact those people.

Jesper (44m 15s):
When you have a new book out, that's the only way to build it sustainable. Yeah.

Autumn (44m 20s):
Yeah. And speaking of a new book out, according to the end of this podcast is released. I released a book yesterday. I can't wait to the future me to tell the, present me how that goes. So I don't know. We just realize that that's a really exciting, we want to time travel for my book really is okay. Back to the park. That was perfect though. But any final words on a Bookstagram on Instagram and what not? No. Other than, like I said, it is, it's a lot about branding. It's a lot about lifestyle and its a lot about, you know, I would assume a militia WRITING dystopian or something really dark and depressing that it's about having a little bit of fun.

Autumn (45m 6s):
So do keep that in mind that sort of what Instagram is about. It's not about just selling one thing, its about selling a whole lifestyle of what it's like to be a reader. So treat the Bookstagrammers like professionals who with a professional brand equal, if not better than yours and be nice, but come say hi, it's really fun. And if you do come say hi to me, so I, because I'm on their and you're not, but I really do enjoy it. Assuming they stop cross posting tick talk. Well maybe one day I'll say, okay, so next Monday we are going to share some tips and thoughts on writing a first draft.

Jesper (45m 48s):
We will try to be as helpful as we can when it comes to a first draft.

Narrator (45m 54s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/ Am. Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going to stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 115 – Ten TERRIBLE Ways of Creating Characters!

What happens when Autumn and Jesper lets go of the reigns and come up with the most crazy and stupid ways in which to create fictional characters?

Episode 115 is NOT designed to give you any writing advice. Hopefully, it'll make you laugh instead.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (31s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (33s):
This is episode 115 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And this is one more of our lighthearted episodes. We will share 10 terrible ways of creating characters. So I'm really looking forward to hear what you came up with here. Autumn.

Autumn (50s):
Yeah, it was good. It was a challenge and it was fun because there was times I was like, Oh, I might try that. But yeah, we'll see how it goes. And I actually, since we're doing 10, I assumed this is an alternating list. So I only needed to come up with five, but I came up with a couple of extra just in case you chose ones. I well, just in case you already chose one that way I, I, I could still put in an entry to win this one.

Jesper (1m 16s):
Damn that's well-prepared I didn't have to think about that.

Autumn (1m 19s):
I did my homework and I did extra homework. So HA, I already won.

Jesper (1m 25s):
Well, no, that I don't agree. Let's see, because you might have some mediocre bonus ones, but that doesn't trump. My very good ones.

Autumn (1m 35s):
Oh, we'll see. Challenge accepted. We will check this out, but it's the, how are things over on your side of the Atlantic?

Jesper (1m 45s):
It's it's good. Just writing, taking care of job stuff, you know? Right. But I also, I actually finished reading the Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. Oh, I finished reading it this weekend.

Autumn (2m 1s):
That, that book it's I hear so much about it. Like I recognize his name everywhere and it's, I have not read it yet myself, but I'm like, wow, it's just like, it's already got this known mythos. So how was it?

Jesper (2m 14s):
That was exactly why I bought it and read it because of all the praise it gets. So I thought, okay, I better read this one and figure out what's the, what is all the fuss about? Yeah. And I must have, I must say that I understand why he's getting so much praise for his writing. The writing itself is really well done. Oh, excellent. Really, really nice writing. And you, you get, you get so much into the characters. So that is very well done. I'm actually planning to share a bit more in our readers group on Facebook. A bit more my thoughts on it, but I also small, not spoiler for the book, but small spoiler for my opinions that I'm going to share on the readers group on Facebook is that I am missing a bit of action.

Autumn (2m 59s):
Oh,

Jesper (3m 0s):
I'm missing a bit that something happening actually. I mean, there is something happening here and there, but it is also a lot about just a character and, you know, basically like how the character grows into becoming the person that he is. And the entire book is more or less flashback. So it's basically the main character is telling like a scribe who is then sitting down, writing down he story and it stops from his childhood. And then how he sort of grows into becoming what he is. So I'm not going to spoil anything of course here, but, but it is basically like a very, very slow long flashback with some chapters here and there where you in the present.

Jesper (3m 47s):
But very few. So that also means that a lot of the lot of the story actually is more or less about him growing up stuff, which character wise is extremely well done. It extremely well-written. So, so that is good, but I would really like a bit more action. I definitely my writing and reading definitely gravitates towards more action. Like I want characters I care about, but I want to see them doing things so interesting. I I've been thinking a bit picking it up. So I'll, I look forward to your review and don't forget to review it on good reads. Since you did join, it's a good tool to use, is it?

Jesper (4m 30s):
Yeah, I have to do that as well. I was thinking, well, maybe we're going to set up at some point here in the near future. Not quite sure when, but we'll probably let people know, but we were going to set up a group on good reads. So once we get that going, I will post videos, I think in that group about and stuff like this. So I am going to share, but I don't know if I want to get into all the reviewing officially kind of thing on good reads. I'm not sure I want to do that, but also I don't, I don't like, you know, well, one author reviewing other authors it's feels like a bit like, Hmm. I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Autumn (5m 12s):
We can be overly nice or overly critical of other authors. I will say that it's kind of hard. There's no, in-between because we're never just reader as we're reading it for looking at what we like, what we don't like. Well, the flaws we see and it's definitely, I've noticed authors when they review other authors work. Sometimes it can be just all you worked so hard on this. Good for you. And other ones are like, wow, if this was my story. So it's night and it's night and day. It's really funny. Yeah. And the thing is that it's all subjective. Right? So just because I think I would like more action doesn't mean that there isn't a million people out there who thinks it's the best book they ever read.

Jesper (5m 53s):
Right. And I don't want to sort of get into that crossfire there. It's just like, it's just my opinion. And I, I, you know, I'm entitled to that. Like everybody else's entitled to theirs, we don't have to have a fight about it. But once you start posting official reviews about it, then you risk having a fight about it. And I'm not sure I want to do that. So sure enough, a private group is slightly different in terms of just sharing some thoughts about it. That's slightly different than, than an official written review. I think which stars on it and all that. But I don't know. I'm a pot from a sort of jinxing, our podcast distribution, and also breaking that one. Autumn.

Jesper (6m 33s):
I don't know what else you've been up to. I'm trying not to break things.

Autumn (6m 39s):
I swear, but yeah. Okay. So the podcast distribution got a little delayed because I touched something on the website and seemed to broke something again, but I'm breaking things less frequently. It's going to end sooner if this can keep going, you know, with your breaking, everything you touch. And especially because this wouldn't when this episode is released next Sunday, the coming Sunday in less than like six days from when this is released, my next book, the tainted phase series is being released. And I'm so excited. So hopefully I don't break em. So I, when I upload it, it's my God.

Jesper (7m 20s):
I can just see the uproar. Like every author starts panicking. KDP is down. KDP is down. It's like, Autumn! Did you upload anything?

Autumn (7m 31s):
Yeah, that'll be me. But hopefully I've just excited to get this one out the door. I love what I've been hearing from the ARC reader. So I'm really, I just cannot wait to share this one with the world.

Jesper (7m 42s):
Yeah. And it, and by the way, if anybody got confused about what we were talking about with the podcast distribution data, just to let the reader know, well, by the time this airs it's been a few weeks, actually. So maybe you don't even remember, maybe you didn't notice, but some might have noticed how episode 112 only appeared in your feed. Like several days after the Monday, it was supposed to get distributed. And I'm not going to mention why that was and who touched something. But yeah, you might know.

Autumn (8m 17s):
Just, I swear, I need to come with a little note that says maybe a jinx, just a little note, don't do this shit at home. That's my, that'll be my life motto.

Narrator (8m 30s):
A week on the internet with the Am Writing Fantasy podcast.

Jesper (8m 36s):
So we have something very special to mention today. We don't do this very often, but once in a while we just love offering something extra, something special for our patron supporters.

Autumn (8m 49s):
Yes. And I'm so excited that there's so much stuff going on in March. We just had the guide course I a book coming out in a week and we're doing something very special over on Patrion.

Jesper (9m 2s):
Yeah. We have a special giveaway, but it won't be open for long. So we're going to close it again on the 22nd of March. So this will apply to all existing patrons supporters as well as everyone who signs up before the 22nd of March.

Autumn (9m 20s):
Yes. So definitely come and join us. And we are giving everyone who joins or is already a member there, a copy of our plot development book, because we think everyone should feel special. And that's just the type of people. You are a cast. We over-give, we overshare. I don't know.

Jesper (9m 41s):
Yeah. So everyone is going to get that. And then in addition, we are going to do a draw and one lucky winner is gonna win a mentor session with autumn and myself. And all of those extra prizes of course comes on top of the stuff that you will get normally

Autumn (10m 1s):
Patron. Yes that's. Oh, and there's different tiers. And there's already cool things with every single one. I mean, it starts at a dollar a month. So you get something instantly for just a buck, which is fantastic. Plus you get a chance to win. Plus you get a chance to you go ahead and you get the plot development book, which has gotten so many praises. So that's fantastic. And even has some extra things you can get for free in it. So we just keep giving things away. It's a very interesting bottle we've got going on there.

Jesper (10m 31s):
Yeah. I don't know business wise how smart that is, but

Autumn (10m 38s):
Compensation.

Jesper (10m 38s):
I mean, there's never been a better time to sign up, to support the am writing fantasy than right now to him. And as always, you will find the link in the show notes.

Autumn (10m 54s):
Yeah.

Jesper (10m 54s):
So this should be fun. I'm actually, I like these alternating lists episodes there. Yeah.

Autumn (10m 59s):
It wasn't fun. It brings out your competitive spirit, which I've noticed you're a high competitor. So this will be, it'll be interesting.

Jesper (11m 8s):
Yeah. You know, I figured out the one thing I am missing. Yeah. Normally when I'm a referee, I have my yellow and red carts. I feel like I should have that here as well.

Autumn (11m 18s):
So that if you're not behaving,

Jesper (11m 19s):
I can give you a red caught and put you into sin bin and stuff.

Autumn (11m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. I'll just touch the computer and the entire thing will explode. So watch it.

Jesper (11m 33s):
Absolutely glad that I'm the one doing the controls of the podcast here, because otherwise you probably would stop recording or something all over.

Autumn (11m 40s):
I am so afraid to touch my computer. Right.

Jesper (11m 44s):
Yeah. Please don't touch anything. Just speak into the mic without touching them.

Autumn (11m 51s):
No, this is difficult. All right. But what if my goes to sleep? That could be its own problem. Anyway, we won't go that way. No.

Jesper (12m 0s):
Okay. So I think we have five each and you have a few bonus ones. And then of course we should at the end, try to figure out which one is the worst of the worst stern. And it would make most sense if it's probably one of mine. So if anybody gets, you know, well, if you just want to skip to the end of the episode, you can listen to us concluding that one of mine was the best one.

Autumn (12m 28s):
Well, why, what does it earn that you have to earn that? Sorry. And no freebies here. Well only freebies to listeners and other authors. No freebies to us. Sorry.

Jesper (12m 39s):
Okay. Well, let's go through the motion then if you insist, it's not going to change the outcome.

Autumn (12m 45s):
So do I see, I had a hard time differentiating with mine. I don't know which one's worse or what, so mine's slightly a random order, but we'll go for it. Okay.

Jesper (12m 56s):
Yeah. Yeah. I, well, I guess most of mine could be in a different orders. Well, I did try to make number one. Like that's probably the worst one I could think of, but if you want to upload up one of the other ones, that's okay with me as well. So you can do that.

Autumn (13m 12s):
All right. Sounds good. So who wants to go first? We have to flip a coin or shall I graciously allow you to, to start? Since you believe yours are already better.

Jesper (13m 23s):
Okay. Yeah. You okay? Yeah. I understand. You want to get right into the good stuff. You know, normally when I eat candies and stuff like that, I sh I saved the good ones for last, because that's how I prefer to do it. But if you want to get straight to the favorite ones, then yeah. Let's let's do.

Autumn (13m 38s):
Yeah. Put your cards on the table. Let's see.

Jesper (13m 42s):
Oh, I'm jinxing myself so bad. Now I know

Autumn (13m 49s):
A bluffer.

Jesper (13m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm number five. So this one is sticking to archetypes, you know, like sticking to archetypes. So this is the, you, you make the mentor, the one who gives the advice and you make sure that this is all that character does. The hero does all the heroic stuff. And the love interest has an over abundance of love, no matter how badly he or she is actually

Autumn (14m 26s):
Treated. Oh, so you basically

Jesper (14m 28s):
Don't give a crap about adding more layers to the character. Just, you just want archetypes and then you might be thinking, well, Derrida, you like archetype. So I'm going to give them to you. Who cares about cultures or skin color and Oh my God, personality trait, all that nonsense. I tell you, it's just a waste of time to worry about testings. I,

Autumn (14m 53s):
I liked that one. And actually I have to admit that is actually one of the bonus ones I came up with was basically don't create your characters at all. Just make them all stereotypes with virtually no personality. And I think Conan the barbarian, he is the hero's hero and so boring. So have you ever read Kona that pop area? I actually have not. I just remember it from the eighties and my childhood and watching it, watching my brother, what, you know, he was older than me. He would be running around being cornered.

Jesper (15m 25s):
Yeah. Yeah. But that's also the only way I've never read it either. I also only remember watching it on TV when I was a child or growing up and I just thought it was so cool.

Autumn (15m 41s):
I think at the time I, well, again, my brother was older and beating up on me cause he was Conan. So I had a different perspective. Well, yeah, I can see that. All right. Yes. So you're ready for my number five. Okay. Yes. All right. So just don't develop them at all. Use someone else's characters. So if you like Harry Potter, just create Barry Cotter, you know, just create something totally. A hundred percent based off of someone else's hard work. I think that's about the worst way I could think of creating a character.

Jesper (16m 17s):
Yeah. Okay. I might have something similar.

Autumn (16m 20s):
Oh, I'm not surprised because I'm going to say yeah.

Jesper (16m 24s):
Yeah. I was just going to say that must be because that's a pretty good idea too.

Autumn (16m 28s):
Exactly. And I said it first, so there you go. Okay.

Jesper (16m 35s):
Yeah. Actually that's not a good sign. If that was one of your bad ones, then I don't know if you have even better stuff coming. Yeah. Now I'm better word.

Autumn (16m 44s):
Good. Just where I want ya. Hmm. All right. So what's your number four number four. Yes. So this one is pure evil, intriguing, right? It sounds very intriguing.

Jesper (17m 2s):
The evil characters they do what they do because they are just asking

Autumn (17m 12s):
Readers who don't understand that ed it's.

Jesper (17m 16s):
Why should you even bother justifying that a characters actually flawed that the person has a trauma, which has distorted their worldview and that the couches is actually believing that he or she is doing what is necessary, even when it is in fact evil, evil, you know, that kind of thinking that's garbage. It is advice made up by authors who don't know what they're talking about and what yeah. Some of them might be successful.

Autumn (17m 45s):
Well,

Jesper (17m 46s):
Have you ever heard about catching lightning in a bottle? I guess not.

Autumn (17m 54s):
You know, there's something pure about just saying, well, he's evil, he's an asshole. This is how my character is. So we could go back to Cruella de Vil as evil characters. Sure. Yeah. That's just that's yeah.

Jesper (18m 12s):
No way to do an antagonist. It's just like, they're evil because they're evil. Okay, great. I like that. Wonderful. You really put a lot of thought into that one. Yeah.

Autumn (18m 26s):
Yeah. It would have me personally tearing my hair out because yeah. I like nuances. I like to love, especially me. I love to love my characters. I have a hard time letting them lose or Oh yeah.

Jesper (18m 41s):
Yeah. But that could be evil. There's nothing wrong with that. But there should be a reason for why they're doing what they're doing. They're not just doing it because it's fun to be evil. You know? That makes sense.

Autumn (18m 50s):
That's fun to be evil. That's like, I would love to give you that. I'll give you that. Actually I might be a super villain considering I destroy everything I touch. So, huh? No. I

Jesper (18m 60s):
Think we worked out that you were the Fe

Autumn (19m 3s):
That's true. Yes. Based on my forthcoming novel, the fake evil there's dark Fay. I wouldn't call them evil. They're just mischievous.

Jesper (19m 15s):
So that may be maybe your doc Phaidon

Autumn (19m 17s):
Might be dark. Hey. Oh, I feel outed. All right. Well, so my first one was, you know, just base your character on someone else's hard work, which is obviously you especially copyright issues and just, you should never undermine another author like that. You should never do it. So instead of basing them for my number four, instead of basing them all on someone else's characters, just based them all on you, a hundred percent, they're all just shades of you. I mean, why spend the time developing characters when you can just make them all you, when you know you, so you should be able to write the book. Isn't it? So that's my number four.

Autumn (19m 58s):
I think it's part. So basically

Jesper (20m 1s):
The characters have exactly the same traits and in dialogue, they all sound like you. Exactly the same. It's a wonderful book to read. It sounds really good.

Autumn (20m 11s):
Your mom and leg. Well, yeah, maybe. So that's plenty to find out if your siblings hate you or like you do, they like your book. Yeah.

Jesper (20m 28s):
Oh my God. Yeah. Just imagine the reviews, like from your own family members saying, I'm not sure. I quite liked the characters in this book is like what the it's me.

Autumn (20m 42s):
Oh yeah. So that's so there you go. I guess this is why you can never base your own characters on you because you might get really upset about what people say about them. So definitely take the time to develop your characters. You're running a massive risk. Are you going to take it personally because you should.

Jesper (20m 59s):
Yeah. All of a sudden the advice about not responding to one star reviews is going to be much more difficult to adhere to it.

Autumn (21m 9s):
Oh, okay. All right. Let's move on.

Jesper (21m 12s):
Why is the author so defensive about this? Karen? I don't get it.

Autumn (21m 18s):
Oh, I could be fun with it.

Jesper (21m 20s):
So number three is, well, we touched about on it slightly already. So this one, I called it being a lazy

Autumn (21m 28s):
Ass. I like this.

Jesper (21m 29s):
So some idiots could call it being smart, I guess if they're idiots, but this is basically, as you said, copying characters that you already know because

Autumn (21m 40s):
Readers love them. Right. So why would you want them?

Jesper (21m 43s):
You spend your time creating something on your own, you know, call Frodo, Modo Winstead. And he's not a habit, but he's at WARF. And maybe instead of bravery, you change that one trait into him being a wimp.

Autumn (21m 58s):
Otherwise he's exactly the same. Right? I don't see what's the problem. I, no, one's going to Sue you or point out that you basically copied someone else's work to create it out. You at least changed a couple of things on yours. Yeah,

Jesper (22m 15s):
The same. Yeah. He's called Modo. What's wrong with that. And he's a dwarf. He lives in a, in a place called hot-button, but, and maybe a slightly weird for it too.

Autumn (22m 29s):
But, and then he has a ring. I mean, I watch likes rings. Right. They liked jewelry sorta as the whole Hobbiton, you know, also had the, it was sorta cave. Like he just kind of emphasized that. Maybe call it Dorfan Tinder or something instead of Hobbiton Wolfington yeah. Yeah. I actually visited Harvard doing in real life. I know. I'm so jealous. I still have to get down to New Zealand. I want to go

Jesper (22m 56s):
To Gilda again. It's amazing.

Autumn (22m 58s):
Oh, Oh. Am writing fantasy work trip com. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh,

Jesper (23m 4s):
We could make a, and then we can record a podcast episode.

Autumn (23m 10s):
Oh, we have to find a way to do this. That would be awesome. That would be awesome to get back to this podcast and stop dreaming. But yeah. You know, your suggestion sounds vaguely familiar. Like someone else might've mentioned it a few minutes ago, so yeah.

Jesper (23m 29s):
I think maybe my spin on it was slightly, just slightly better.

Autumn (23m 38s):
You tried, you added something to it. I'm just saying. All right. So my number three is I was actually kind fun to find discover this, but there is a random character generator online. It's a UK based one. And so I, to any work you can go in there and just give me a character. And there's a few little inputs, so you can choose fantasy. You can choose hero. You can choose made, you can choose some things. And it pops out of character and Bing bang, boom, you're done. You're writing. Just go for it.

Jesper (24m 12s):
Did you try to run from, what does it generate? What is it?

Autumn (24m 16s):
I think it's like a little character sheet that, you know, almost like you would come up with some stuff like that. It gives you some traits and things too. So, you know, it comes up with some ideas, honestly, in some ways, if you, if you were truly having a hard time coming up with a story idea, I think you could possibly do this just for the fun of it. And maybe start creating a story around a character. But if you had a story in your mind and you just randomly, someone is like ripping a page out of a D and D book saying, this is my character and trying to force them into your story. I don't think it would work too well, but in its own, it was kind of like, Oh, this is, this could be actually fun.

Autumn (24m 57s):
It's like sitting there and rolling your dice to create a D and D character and seeing what you come up with.

Jesper (25m 4s):
I was almost thinking when you were saying that, that just as like a starting point, it might not be too bad an idea actually. You know, if, if you're sort of out of inspiration and what not to do, not not to use it, like it comes out of that generator, but more

Autumn (25m 21s):
Like just, just the starting

Jesper (25m 23s):
Frame of something. And then you can develop further on that.

Autumn (25m 27s):
Actually I have to admit, it was kind of like, I found it, I'm like, Oh, this could actually be fun because you might get ha you might get something you never would have considered before. So it's a bad idea, but it's also kind of a fun ideas. I saved the website. So yeah. If anyone wants to check it out, I mean, you can Google it, but it's just character, hyphen generator.org.uk. So shout out to them. I have never met anyone who works there or created it, but it was literally Googling it. It was the only, the only random character generator online. And it was kind of like, Oh, this is fun. This is actually really fun. So go check it out.

Autumn (26m 7s):
Yeah, no worries.

Jesper (26m 8s):
I was not aware of that one. That that's actually interesting. So yeah, when you don't know what to do in the evening, you can sit down in January.

Autumn (26m 21s):
This is what writers do during pandemics and lockdown. Yeah. So that's what you do when you're going in,

Jesper (26m 28s):
Going insane from COVID-19 and you'd just sitting dead. Any characters or,

Autumn (26m 33s):
Oh yeah. I've got an eye. I'm releasing a book. I'm busy. I'm good. I'm fine. Number two number,

Jesper (26m 41s):
But two we're getting there now. So, well, we all know that good stories are about characters, right? So you agree? I agree. I do agree. Okay. So what if the right is just love? Love, love, love, love, love me some characters. So why can't I just have a whole bunch of them. So they appear, and then they do their thing before they disappear, completely offering the States to 20 other characters that are equally doing death thing. And a then perhaps the guy from early in the book, he makes a surprise return during the climax and then whacks the bad guy over the head with a club.

Jesper (27m 28s):
Isn't that awesome.

Autumn (27m 31s):
Sure. Go ahead and write that up.

Jesper (27m 33s):
Well, who doesn't like characters? What do you mean? I don't get it. Everybody has characters. How many of

Autumn (27m 39s):
Them are point of view characters?

Jesper (27m 42s):
Well, all of them, they have their chapter each, right? So there's going to be 25 point of view characters and the yeah.

Autumn (27m 53s):
From different perspectives, I would guess. So probably a very confusing story. Oh, I had someone complained that I have like eight main characters in my fantasy trilogy.

Jesper (28m 5s):
I don't understand. I mean the more the merrier 35 point of view, it's probably never been done before. It's like a unique

Autumn (28m 12s):
I'm writing that I have to admit my mind is like, how can I organize this? This could actually work. It would be, it would be such an interesting challenge. I honestly think I need a writing intervention pitch and that I'm actually considering.

Jesper (28m 28s):
Yeah, you'll be surprised. Next time I send you a story for editing and it's got to be 35 characters and Yukon, a point of view character. And you're going to go back to be like, w

Autumn (28m 35s):
What is this? This is not what we agreed to.

Jesper (28m 42s):
It's just enriched the story. I made it better.

Autumn (28m 45s):
Why don't you get it? I don't get it. I can't imagine telling a cohesive. It reminds me, actually, this is a fun thing to actually do. But back when we could actually sit around a campfire with other living human beings, okay. And then someone would start a story and everyone would continue and carry it on. I loved of things like that. Being able to like just one person creates it and carry it on and see where you end up. That could be so much fun. I'm trying to imagine that in a narrative form, as an actual novel and through different characters, and I had had of worked out into a plot and I I'm, it's not clicking.

Autumn (29m 32s):
I'm sorry. I,

Jesper (29m 34s):
But you don't get it. This is just because it's a new level of writing. You just haven't advanced to that level yet. So you can't see it. It's just your,

Autumn (29m 45s):
It may be, it is. I will have to admit, I am not saying it, but I'll keep working on it and no way to you. Wait till you see there now next storyline. I hand you something to be afraid of.

Jesper (29m 60s):
Indeed. Now I can sleep tonight.

Autumn (30m 5s):
All right.

Jesper (30m 5s):
So what is number two,

Autumn (30m 8s):
Number two. That's where we're at. I got totally lost and trying to figure out how to plot a 35 point of view for this one. I thought taking it to your near and dear. So instead of basing the characters on yourself, or just randomly basing it on your friends and family, you should do a little bit of research here and ask your friends, your family, your roommates, your dorm hall, to take personality tests, and then use the results for characters. I think it could be fun that you could just base them all on people, you know, and the people you don't like you could accidentally kill off. It's very cathartic that

Jesper (30m 45s):
Way. And you're going to keep the names as well.

Autumn (30m 52s):
We arranged the letters, maybe a little bit. Steve could become that's or that's me Tebow. There's some options there. It's using real life techniques and real life people. Your characters should be feel real. What is more real than using, you know, people, you know, to create your characters. Yeah.

Jesper (31m 24s):
It was just what I was about to say, at least your characters will be complex and they will have depth that's for sure. But I think you might run a pretty big risk in getting very unpopular with certain people.

Autumn (31m 35s):
I might have to change the names a little bit, but yeah, I think Steven, you know, your coworkers, the ones you don't get along with my, pick it up. Maybe you don't have to put your boss in there. That's that's just like the worst idea. Don't be like, use your crush as the love interest. That's rewarding. Isn't that you can blog. Okay.

Jesper (32m 4s):
Or maybe they feel like you're a stalker or something discrete, or actually wrote it in a book as well.

Autumn (32m 12s):
But then if you break up, you can take care of that. Then this next book in this series, that's the next book in the series. I can see my dragon.

Jesper (32m 23s):
Nah, it sounds like it's going to be a very boring you. Well then the character went to grocery shopping and then got home. Did the dinner. It's just a really boring book about everyday life.

Autumn (32m 36s):
You need to change it to grocery shopping. That's getting supplies. So they could be going to the

Jesper (32m 42s):
Dragon at the shop.

Autumn (32m 44s):
Oh, you know those kids you'd never know. They could be a hoard of angry slobbery dwarves coming to attack you I'd be running, screaming

Jesper (32m 56s):
Behind the Friesa case. Came to 20 angry towards

Autumn (33m 3s):
Oh yeah. Hmm. Could work. Okay.

Jesper (33m 11s):
Okay. This one is gonna blow your mind.

Autumn (33m 13s):
I need let's go for it.

Jesper (33m 16s):
Yeah. Th this is definitely the winner. It's just like, doesn't get any better than this one. Number one, I tell you this one, I called make beep up. So a beep might be re B might be representing a word that starts with S

Autumn (33m 37s):
Okay. I could have beeped you for you, but all right. Seems fair. Okay. Okay.

Jesper (33m 44s):
So this is the attitude saying, I don't think it matters one bit what my character's motivations are or how about what their goals are. People are not complex at all. It's actually not that hard. You should just make up things as you go along. Character development, all that nonsense. It is something made up by stupid people who wants to sound smart, like the hosts of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast.

Autumn (34m 20s):
Hey, so, so yeah. No character arcs, nothing. You just,

Jesper (34m 24s):
No. No. Why do you need that?

Autumn (34m 29s):
Okay.

Jesper (34m 30s):
Yeah, but I mean, you're making it too complicated. You just want some characters who go out and do crazy stuff, all kinds of things happening. The End. Right? It's a good story. You don't need all that. And then he was sad about blah, blah, blah. And all the touchy feelings. I mean, what do you don't need? All that. It's not, it's basically Conan the barbarian. Right? We just talked about how awesome it is.

Autumn (34m 56s):
Hey, I didn't get along with, I have a chip tooth from Conan. The barbarian I'll have, you know,

Jesper (35m 1s):
But you see how memorable it was. Huh? You still remembered because the chip tooth,

Autumn (35m 7s):
I had an emotional support. Yeah.

Jesper (35m 11s):
It's just much better. Instead of all this, a smarty pants, right? Advice about making a complex coaters no, just plain old Megadog as you go along. And if it, for example, suits the story, then all of a sudden the couch is a, is an angry villain who decides to do something really, really bad because it makes the more exciting

Autumn (35m 39s):
Than that's what happens. So it's kind of like a mad cap extravaganza. Just throw it out, make up stuff as you go. Right. That's the whole point of storytelling. It sounds in its own way. A fun way of writing, but odd. Hey, I honestly think I've read a few stories like this and I don't think I gave them a very high review. What? This just like sitting around the campfire and then somebody is telling a very, very good story. And I get you, you just remember how wonderful it was that summer evening when Steve or Steven was telling this, this really cool story.

Autumn (36m 20s):
And you still remember 20 years later, it's just like amazing. It's like the best of storytelling. This is exactly how to do it. I don't, yeah, this is the window for sure. But see if you can talk me then with your number one, I doubt it. But I have to admit, I don't think my number one is nearly as much fun as that one because I have to mix mine was I was trying to think of something random, kind of easy. And I happened to have been gifted a long time ago, this like four inch dictionary. That's leather bound and gold leaf. I mean, it's, it's gorgeous. It's a, it's a gorgeous dictionary. Even though like probably half the words have the butter day words are not even in it anymore.

Autumn (37m 3s):
It's old. But I was just thinking, you know what? You just flip that open, pick a word, do it again. And you pick out you don't 10 20 words and you make a character out of whatever random words you land on. Just okay. Yeah. Well, if, if it's a story about an insane, insane asylum, I think that will be fine. I think we'll see. You could, again, this is sort of like the random character generator. You could come up with something you never would have expected you land on like expeditious or study. Definitely grades. So I'm schizophrenia, lunatics. That's I, you know, I, I, it might work really well with your number one because they all sounded a little bit like, look at six, two B roll.

Autumn (37m 50s):
No, no, no, no. Not at all. I mean, my number one was about creating excitement and taking the story where we be following the story where it takes you. Right. That was my number one. And letting the characters completely different. Sure. Well, I'll just agree with you. I think I have to admit though, your number one, would I swear, I have read books like that, where the character just change from one chapter to the next. And I'm like, is this name on, is this the same name on a different character?

Autumn (38m 32s):
Maybe did it a sense of replacement made a mistake? I have wondered that at times I honestly have, Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think I am actually, I have to, I hate to admit it, but I am still stuck on 35 point of view. Normal. It just kind of tickles me. I don't know why, but I actually have to admit, I kind of like your list. These are some really horrible ways of creating characters. What I, what do you mean horrible?

Autumn (39m 13s):
It's it's about following your muse, right? It's taking just follow the story. Don't give a shit about all those writing advice stuff, you know, go with the story goes. Yeah. Once you make me want to take my lap. Well, maybe not my laptop, a borrowed laptop, because I tend to destroy everything to a good bar, have a nice glass of scotch on the rocks and just start writing like a mad woman and see what comes out. Totally inspired me. I, I, I be grudgingly admit, I think you win this one. Yes. I said it in the beginning. And so it is true.

Autumn (39m 53s):
I, yeah. I think your character creation, you have totally devoted a authentic way of creating some really crazy characters. Oh. So you're telling me that winning this one actually means that I'm the worst. I'm not sure that this is not where I wanted it to go. Really? You should see the gold star I made for you. Damn. I don't want that. No. No. Okay. I think we need to get back to some more serious talk next week. This, this is, well, I make a point on my board, but I don't know. Maybe we actually, we should stop making a point board because I don't know.

Autumn (40m 36s):
I must be in delete though. I must be. You keep telling yourself that I think this one deck, this one deducts points from your board. So keep that in mind. No. Now I'll just end the podcast because this is getting too much now. Okay. So next Monday we are discussing bookstagram. And if influences are helpful to your book sales,

Narrator (41m 4s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the am. Writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 114 – How to Edit Your Novel

You've finished the first draft of your novel. GREAT! Now, how do you tackle edits?

We've got you covered. In this episode, we discuss the pros and cons of different editing methods, take a peek at how Autumn runs her edits, and what you can do if you really aren't a fan of editing (like Jesper).

Check out the Ultimate Fantasy Writer's Guide before enrollment closes on March 7th! Head over to https://ultimatefantasywritersguide.com/main/.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt, and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (31s):
and I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 114 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And this is one off Autumn's favorite Topics. And for me, not so much.

Autumn (48s):
That's fair enough though. I have to admit, I have been so up to my nose and edits recently that maybe it's not quite as favorite as it is at other times of the year.

Jesper (59s):
No. Okay. Fair enough. Well, we're going to talk about how to edit your novel today. So hopefully that'll prove very helpful for listeners. Yes, I think so. And I definitely, the first time I said was editing, I was a mess and I didn't know where to start. And I think a lot of re writers they're really good at writing, but they don't know how to tackle edits in an organized way. That is the most efficient and I love efficiency. So this should be a good topic. I hope. Yeah, for sure. But how have things been over the last week? Have you broken anything, any websites or computers you have messed up coding? That's so not fair.

Jesper (1m 40s):
A question. Oh, it's bad. I did to finish up that story. I did get my laptop back from the Apple Replair repair place and they ended up, I think if I hadn't had stickers on the back of my laptop, they would have just given me a whole new whole new laptop, but they took off my old screen, put it on a whole new base and I have new batteries, a new logic board, a new video graphic card. I have everything but more memories.

Autumn (2m 7s):
So because they refuse to upgrade the memory in the year of computer I have, but I have all my files. And so my laptop is working famously and I love it. I love the new keyboard. The old keyboard was crap. So I actually enjoy typing on this one, which is kind of nice for a novelist, but yeah, everything was going smoothly and I was catching up on work. And then our hosting agency for the websites got hacked and luck knock on wood. I happened to have been in there almost the exact same time it happened. And all they had done was just changed a few emails, you know, kind of weasel in through a few back doors.

Autumn (2m 50s):
And my husband and I spent the next three days blocking cleaning and upgrading and updating and doing a whole bunch of stuff. And that kind of like it was book, I'm a writer. I thought I was like a cyber stalker worm killer. I don't know. It was just a nightmare. It's just not our month. It's my year. I keep thinking about your comment that said, you know, now, you know what your characters feel like. And I'm like, I feel like the main character in someone's favorite novel right now, because it's just, as soon as I get a chance to catch my breath. Whew. Right on the roller coaster again.

Autumn (3m 29s):
Oh my goodness. Hopefully you'll get a break tonight where I feel so bad for my characters. Now, if this is like, if it's like, I should just come with a warning, this is to not touch, may break something very quickly. So yeah. So that's my life. How are you doing? I hope it's calm over there.

Jesper (3m 55s):
Well, yeah, compared to all the rest of the world, luckily enough, you're the one dealing with those issues, even though it's a, of course also my issue with such, but you're dealing with it, so I don't have to worry about it. So I guess while you were doing all of that, I finished up watching Vikings. So on HBO, that sounds horrible.

Autumn (4m 18s):
Don't tell me how it is. I haven't finished it yet. We're still watching it. It's one of our rotations. So it's taking forever to get through the last episodes.

Jesper (4m 27s):
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But by the time this episode airs, I will have posted a video in our Facebook group for readers sharing my thoughts about the show. I'm not going to do any spoilers or anything like that, but, but I, I just thought I, I would talk a bit about the endings without any spoilers, but more like the idea about it. Because I mentioned, I think I'm one of the quite recent podcast episodes as well. I mentioned the ending of game of Thrones and I know, well, we have a lot of haters on the internet about that show, but, but I was mentioning quite recently how I liked that they wrapped up each character arc very well in game of Thrones.

Jesper (5m 11s):
Yes they did. And I, and I was very pleased that they actually did the same thing here. So I liked it. Oh, good. Yeah. Very good. Ending to the six seasons. As far as I know that I'm not going to do any more episodes. I don't think that they at least, so I think this is the end of the series as a whole. And I actually think they left it in a good place. So I was very positive about DHEA, the ending of it all that gives me something to look forward to unless I break the TV. Well, yes, you might want your husband to turn on the persona, press play and stuff like that.

Autumn (5m 49s):
He won't let me have the remote at this point. I'm surprised I'm allowed in the kitchen.

Jesper (5m 54s):
Yeah. Or even on a podcast.

Autumn (5m 55s):
At least the podcast is still recording it's because you're hosting.

Jesper (6m 0s):
Oh, right. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. But as I said, I'm going to share some thoughts in the Facebook group and well, this is of course the Redis group we have on Facebook. But if any of the listeners should be interested in that, just search for fans of immersive fantasy among the Facebook groups. And you will find one that is called fans of immersive fantasy Redis club for the world of Elysium. Yeah. So that's what it's called.

Autumn (6m 27s):
Yeah. That's us.

Jesper (6m 29s):
So you're welcome to join if you want, but to keep in mind that this is a group for fiction readers. So we do not share any kind of author advice or any of the other usual stuff. You, you, you get in the am writing fantasy, our Facebook group. So it's a very different compared to that one, but you're welcome to join. Of course, if you're interested.

Autumn (6m 51s):
Absolutely.

Narrator (6m 51s):
Oh, a week on the internet with the yam writing fantasy podcast

Jesper (6m 58s):
First, can I just mention that something came across all over my Facebook feed? So I don't know if you noticed, but the Jeff Bezos announced a quite here recently that he was stepping down as the CEO of Amazon. Did you notice that?

Autumn (7m 18s):
I, yes. Adam told me about it. My husband.

Jesper (7m 22s):
Right. And then of course, I don't know if we authors are just like Chronicle worried about all kinds of things. I don't know. But then I noticed some posts on my feet where some authors were concerned now because when Jeff Beto started out Amazon, it was like an online bookstore that he started. So he, and we know he likes books and then people starting to get concerned that, well, if Jeff is gone, then he's the guy who loves the books. What will then, will that end up having some sort of effect on KDP? So what do you think about that?

Autumn (8m 5s):
I'm not a worrier. And so I read it to me. It's always been Amazon might not. It won't. I mean, there's just no way. It's always going to be the number one place to buy books. Things will change. And that's why you should build your own fan base and mailing lists. Because if Amazon went belly up tomorrow, that way you'd still have a way of reaching readers, you know, that's very true, indeed.

Jesper (8m 29s):
I honestly think it matters absolutely nothing. It's not going to change anything that Jeff Bezos is not the CEO anymore. I really don't think so. I think the readers are so active and it's a part of Amazon that unless it was making, unless it was losing money, they wouldn't cut it off.

Autumn (8m 49s):
No, I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever. And it's just one of those things that can we please stop worrying about all kinds of stuff that doesn't really matter. It's just the unnecessary spend of your mental capacity and resources. It's a, Oh my God. I don't know if we authors or just a worried bunch in general, but it's just, Oh, I wouldn't.

Jesper (9m 12s):
I was not laughing at the post because obviously somebody is truly worried, so it was not, but I was more like, ah, Jesus, can we, can we move on a bit instead?

Autumn (9m 23s):
It's not like chicken little, the sky is falling. The sky is falling about every new thing. I just, I'm not a worrier about things like that. I'm much a wait and see kind of person. So I will monitor the trends, but I'm not, I'm not exclusive to Amazon. So I'm not that worried.

Jesper (9m 43s):
No true. But all right there, the really big thing that we needed to mention here instead is that for the first time in six months we have our online writing course open.

Autumn (9m 55s):
Yes. Whew. I always love it. When the ultimate fantasy writer's guide is open again. It's still my little baby.

Jesper (10m 3s):
Yeah. So I have a very short testimonial sunk clip from past students that I want to play now. And then maybe afterward, you can explain a bit about what the course is about open.

Autumn (10m 13s):
I will try to explain, you know, how my week's going.

Jesper (10m 16s):
Oh, well that's true. Unless your internet breaks by the time I've played this. Okay. Well, here it goes.

Catherine (10m 31s):
Hi everyone. I'm Catherine. I'm currently working my way through the ultimate fantasy writers guide and I've been finding it very helpful. One of my main problems has been plotting. I had a very hard time getting my plot to go through and have continuity after going through the workshops for the plotting section I have now got a full plot and have begun writing. It has been very helpful for me and I'm sure you will find it very helpful too. Thanks.

Jan (11m 3s):
Hi, I'm Jan B read fantasy author and I just watched autumn bread's launch day module. It was a really informative, had a lot of great information. She had ideas I had never thought of before really excited to implement her ideas and launching my own book. I highly recommend the ultimate fantasy writer's guide because it's one of the best programs I've ever seen. It not only covers pretty much everything about writing from start to finish, including fan bases and staying confident and everything. It also has things like languages and naming your characters based on that.

Jan (11m 47s):
And it has Map making it. It's just so excellent.

Jesper (11m 57s):
Map-making that's just like, Oh, I love my,

Autumn (12m 2s):
I, yeah, we both have that. That's what brought us together almost as fantasy maps. So that's how we first really started talking. So go figure.

Jesper (12m 11s):
Yeah. So maybe you can share a bit about what's in this course.

Autumn (12m 16s):
Sure. Well, it's 12 modules and the first six, the first half are all about writing from everything, from idea development to characters and world-building magic rules from magic. So this is a four, it is designed for fantasy author. So I made it, you know, we made it so that it would go this way. Cause you've definitely helped me on it. After my initial attempt, you've gone through it all as well. And after that, it goes, it breaks down the actual writing process into writing the beginning, writing the middle, you know, the mushy middle and writing the end and the components that go into each of those areas. And there's just some advanced writing tips. So those first six modules are really all about how to write.

Autumn (12m 58s):
But if you're a self-published author, you know, writing is literally only half of the game. So the other six modules are all about building fans about editing, huh? That's today's topic today on a podcast where you go, how to make time and stay motivated. Because if you're working, if you have kids, if you have a family that's, that's its own issue and then you know, other platforms and what are the funny, I still remember the, one of the questions when I upload it up loading my debut novel born of water was that, you know those questions on Amazon and how do you answer them into my really answering them correctly? The first time you go through it, it is definitely like, Oh shoot, you don't know what to do.

Autumn (13m 41s):
So it goes through all of those questions and what you need to know have do when you go to upload and how to launch your book, launch it to fans, how to get reviews and how to take all of that. If you want to keep going and make an career, make an author platform, an author brand and talks about that. So it really steps you through, from having an idea to having a platform all in one course, because I wanted, I was tired of all these places that just like buy this one here, buy that one there. And then they often contradict each other. No, it's, it's all in one course, one voice it'll get you there. Steadily shortly has as long as it takes you to get through it all.

Jesper (14m 22s):
Yeah. And the courses online as well. It is self-paced so you can do it from the safety of your home. And I think these days that's pretty good.

Autumn (14m 32s):
I love, I have loved that. We do have a live component. We have the student Q and a every month and I really just, I love it. I love seeing students and hearing about what they're doing and what they're writing. It's just a total perk me up kind of day.

Jesper (14m 48s):
Absolutely. And it's also the first course we created, which means that over the years we've had out of quite a few bonus modules to the cost. So you will get access to those too. And as well, I should mention that there is a 30 day money back guarantee. No questions asked. So if you don't like the course after purchasing it, you just let us know and we will get you a refund and we're not going to ask why or anything. We'll just refund your money. And it's simple as that. Yes, I exactly, I it's, you can't lose by trying it out and seeing if it's gonna work for you. And I really hope it does because it is full of everything that has made a difference in my writing my career and how things have gone and why I'm a full-time author now.

Jesper (15m 32s):
So I hope it helps you to. Yeah. So we've included a link to the course in the show notes. So if this is something that you think will be useful for you, you need to go and check that out, but you have to be quick about it though, because we're closing the course for another six months a week after this episode airs. So you'll need to get in before the seventh of much. Otherwise it's going to be closed again. So yeah, don't tell you around or whatever you say, dilly dally do not delete Allie, come and join us.

Narrator (16m 12s):
Today's topic.

Autumn (16m 15s):
So editing.

Jesper (16m 18s):
Yeah. You sound much more enthusiastic already than I do.

Narrator (16m 22s):
Well, I want to start with a quote. One of my favorite quotes is definitely having ways. It is a write drunk, edit sober. I just love that one. And it is very true because writing tipsy can help the flow of creativity. But when it comes to editing, you need to have a clear head. I don't think it's very healthy though. Long-term drinking well.

Jesper (16m 48s):
Yeah. Okay. But if you get tipsy, if, I mean, there was the other advice that you should write every day. So if you're getting tips, I think is probably not the best of combinations.

Autumn (16m 58s):
I think pirates would make really good writers.

Jesper (17m 1s):
Oh yes. Maybe actually they would make good writers. Vikings would be excellent writers.

Autumn (17m 8s):
Yeah. There you go. See, you just need to find the right audience.

Jesper (17m 14s):
Yeah. That might actually be true. But I was thinking that maybe we could go through some different ways. One can edit a novel and maybe she has some pros and cons on the different approaches or absolutely.

Autumn (17m 28s):
And I definitely, I mean, for me, I wanted to share to like my organization, how I see it as different layers and different levels because by doing that, you can refine it without wasting too much time.

Jesper (17m 42s):
So I think those are important too, but let's I want it.

Autumn (17m 44s):
So you found some different types or topics of editing?

Jesper (17m 49s):
Well, more like some different ways of doing it, I guess more so I could think of four different ways and there might be a bit of overlap in them too, to some degree, I guess. But yeah, the first one I had was basically edit as you go. And this is certainly not something I recommend doing, but I guess the pro of doing that is that once the manuscript is done, it's done now.

Autumn (18m 27s):
Yeah. That's it that's pretty nice. I always, there was a writer I knew when I had my previous job as a conservationist and when I went to visit him and we talked to was a comfort, you know, we I'd worked with soils and plants and things. And so he would put it in terms. He thought I would understand. He he's like in the, in the gardener in the morning, I, I go and tend, you know, I plant my vegetables and in the afternoon I weed. So that was, he did edit as he goes in the morning, he would write in the afternoon he would edit. And I always say, well, that's a fun way of doing it. But I also think he was non-fiction. And so I think it's easier. But with fiction, I, there are times we just had this discussion in the am writing fantasy group.

Autumn (19m 9s):
Cause we, this was a recent post and there are times, and there are people who do edit as they write. I think that you would have to be a good plotter so that, you know, you're not wasting your time editing something that you're going to end up cutting, but it's so much easier to edit something written.

Jesper (19m 27s):
Yeah. And th that was also the con I have with this one is basically that you do run the risk that let's say you get to chapter 35 and then you figure out, Oh, shoot, I need to change something back in chapter 20, which is now fully edited. So you put in the man hours to, to do the editing and now you have to go back and change this, which means you have to edit it again. So, and let's say that maybe you haven't plotted that well, so you have a bit of a mess on your hand, which then means that by chapter eight and 11 and 14 and 17 and 18 and so on, there's stuff you need to correct. Yeah. You're going to spend quite a lot of time re editing the same stuff again after changing it.

Jesper (20m 11s):
So I'm not a hundred percent fan of this approach. So I must admit no.

Autumn (20m 16s):
Well, I, I really try to avoid it. There's times I will go back and edit in. Like I recently realized I was missing a point of view of a character that I really thought when I realized it was important as three quarters of the way through the novel. So I had to go back and add like two or three chapters in that was editing. And sometimes there's just like, I realized that there's something that's wrong and I just need to get it right. Or it's not flowing correctly. So I'll go and edit. But in general, I just leave myself notes and I wait until I go through my first layer

Jesper (20m 48s):
Of editing before I go and tackle real edits, the true edits. Otherwise I just, just leave notes for yourself. I have a whole folder in Scrivener. That's just editing notes of things. I want to go back in and change, or I do it where I go and it's available through it's there so that I can go back and, you know, put it like right in the Scrivener file, right in the chapter. I need to go in edit. I'll just add a comment or a note saying, Hey, add this into.

Autumn (21m 20s):
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesper (21m 23s):
I, I also feel like, I mean, I don't know why I've burnt my burned myself and learn my lessons. And if not, when I got like 50 K words into the first book I wrote and then figured out that I had to digital thing, just imagine if I hit as, Oh my God. Plus I would say that Maybe it doesn't matter too much if you're very seasoned, but at least when you're starting out, I think there's a lot of value in completing something. Yes. And if you're editing as you go, it takes you forever to complete that manuscript. Whereas if you just push through and get a bit of a messy draft done, at least you got something done.

Jesper (22m 9s):
And then I think you said it before.

Autumn (22m 10s):
Right.

Jesper (22m 11s):
Then you can start going back into something you actually have, but, but it just that the art of, or the experience of proving to yourself that you can finish a first draft. There's a lot of value in that. And for that alone, I would almost say, don't edit as you go.

Autumn (22m 30s):
Yeah. I, my, I completely concur, especially for your first few novels. Don't don't do it. Don't get yourself trapped in the editing and not finishing finish and then edit it's. One of the things say we teach in the guide is, you know, right. The goal is actually to write for a short, bad book, just a short, bad manuscript. Maybe it should be just write it and then add to it and then enhance it because that is, it's much more possible. It's easier to do when you have something there and you see the whole story arc, all the characters when you have it all there. And you're like, Oh, that's how it ends. Well, now I got to go fix the beginning and that's fine. But yeah, playing the devil's advocate when you and I write together, technically you write and I go back through and I'm writing and editing, but this is like, you know, it's like book 24 for me.

Autumn (23m 22s):
I'm not that. And you're up in the tens now too. So we have it all plotted out so that we can actually work together and stay on the same path. So I'm not that worried about what we're doing, but that's an exception. I will say that because technically I am, it's already written though. You wrote it, but I'm writing in editing at the same time.

Jesper (23m 43s):
Yeah. But I, in that case, I would almost, because there's a difference between sitting and writing the first draft. Let's see. Okay. Yeah. I sit down, I write my chapter one and then I go back and I edit my entire chapter one. And then I write chapter two when I go back and edit chapter two and so on all the way through. Right. But what you're getting, you're getting a full book basically. I mean the entire first draft is there when you get it from me. So yes, you are editing as you go. And of course you will also writing in the chapters and you are adding to it, but, but the novel is there. So to speak of the bones of it.

Jesper (24m 23s):
Is there already?

Autumn (24m 25s):
Yes. So it's sort of a different process.

Jesper (24m 28s):
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. Well, somebody can judge us on that. That's Okay.

Autumn (24m 33s):
If you want to, we can take it easily after the week I've had please judge me on my writing techniques or my editing techniques. That's fine. All right. So what's the next one that you have as a method?

Jesper (24m 49s):
Yeah, the next one I had was I'm doing a content edit and then afterwards doing all the like grammar would copy editing and so on and so on. Right. So basically what I mean by that is doing multiple passes over it. And the, the upside of doing that is that you're going to end up with a very thorough editing because you have been over the manuscript several times, which means that you should, at least in theory have covered all your basis once you've gone over the last pass. So in the beginning passes, you are not worrying about incorrect commerce or finding the perfect word or stuff like that.

Jesper (25m 33s):
You, you just making sure that the character arcs are there, the stories working and so on, and then you worry about those things in a, in a future pass. So doing that at least. Yeah. I think it's, it gives a very, very good end result. The con is that it can take quite some time to go through it over and over again in different passes. I just,

Autumn (25m 56s):
I agree. I don't think it takes too much time that's because this is my favorite method and it is what I do when I'm writing by myself. The first thing I do is a content edit that usually begins by reading through the entire book, almost as fast as I can, like as if I was a, a reader, but also taking really not meticulous, but really good notes that very specific, like the point of view, the plotting phase, I, cause I know the editor will need it eventually new words and names. I talk about what happens in the plot because I have my initial plot, what I think is going to happen. And then I have what actually does end up happening in the story I use, you know, the census use to make sure that I'm covering all the senses.

Autumn (26m 40s):
I write a very detailed what needs worked and I'm pretty on myself there. And since then I've started opening, you know, my opening hooks, closing hooks to make sure they're varied, making sure that the opening paragraph does, you know, anchored little touches like that. Do I have the setting? The point of view is all that in there. And that is just literally the first round. And after that I go into the ones who are under the, what needs work. I find the ones that are like, Oh my God, this is horrible. What were you thinking? You idiot. And I go and I fix everything in those. And then I start on the going through and doing a coal pass of fixing up everything. And then usually I do one more pass at is more the grammar writing punctuation.

Autumn (27m 24s):
That's usually using at this point, like a grammarly or pro writing aid or something like that. And then I send it to the editor. I used to do eight to 10 passes. So now I've gotten it down to like three to four. I think I'm doing, I have my book. I still remember. I've told you this one before, but I've had readers ask how do you remember that such and such has happened? I'm like, I have read this book 25 times before you've ever even see it. It is ingrained. Plus I have a semi photographic memory. So it's just like between the two, if I forgotten something I'm so disappointed in myself.

Jesper (27m 60s):
Well, at least, at least for me with English, not being my mother tongue and stuff, stuff like that, you know, it's doing multiple passes. It takes a long time And I know I'm not the only one writing in English, even though it's not my mother tongue. I mean, I know we have listeners, I can see it in the, in the podcast that we have listeners for from many, many different places. So there are certainly other people who is in the same situation. And I think that they will, hopefully I hope sympathize with me in the sense that the less passive

Autumn (28m 41s):
And I think a lot of people, I am surprised. I think there's in my mindset is definitely organization and structure and the, I thrive on that. And so the multiple pace passes to me feel good because I'm actually going through, like, I can do three or four chapters a day. I feel like I'm making huge progress. I go, boom, boom, boom. I'm through the whole book. I started again and do the whole thing. And like two weeks later, I've completely two, three weeks. I've gone through the whole book and I think it's fine. I don't, I even when I'm writing them that way, if I'm in the same chapter for two to three days, I feel like the chapter is never going to end. I usually just do a summary and I skip ahead because I cannot stand to sit there on the same thing for day after day after day.

Autumn (29m 25s):
I like lots of irons in the fire. I like getting through things. So it works well for me because it's very fast. Lots of facets.

Jesper (29m 33s):
Yeah. That's funny you say that because actually for me, it's sort of the opposite in the sense that if I have to go back to the same again, I feel it really annoying. It's like, I'm not moving ahead. I'm not getting anywhere because now I'm at the same chapter again. So I really like to, it might be done, but I'd like to do one chapter and then it is done because then I'm not going back to that chapter. I know I can tick it off my to-do list and I know it's gone, whereas going back and redoing it, I don't know. It annoys me. Well, I don't like editing in the hall, but it's true.

Autumn (30m 15s):
I mean, every author is different and that's why even writing courses and everything else could be. So you've got to figure out all the advice and figure out what works for you, because that is going to what helps you flourish as a writer and as an editor. And obviously some authors are never going to be fantastic editors. They might need to go through a much more in depth hiring an editor that can handle more than just punctuation or, I mean, I tend to go through just proofreading. I don't really need a content edit. I don't need someone. Who's going to pick out too many awkward sentences. I know which ones at this point are pretty bad. I just need a proofreader. But other authors are going to want to have maybe a different level, have a beta reader, an alpha reader to help them develop some things that they would miss otherwise because they just, they don't have that editor instinct.

Jesper (31m 7s):
No. Yeah, that's absolutely true. So my next one is very similar, but it is more like instead of doing multiple passes, you just go in one, pass over the entire thing. But the thing is here and that this is where, I mean, there might be a bit of overlap with the ones that I already mentioned. Right. But because to some extent, we talked about editing as you go. We also talk talked about doing the multiple passes, but, but basically for this one to work, and this is to be honest, my preferred way of editing, but first to work, you have to have a pretty thorough outline.

Jesper (31m 52s):
So that can be no plot holes. That can be no character arcs ending up in nowhere, all of a sudden and stuff like that. Right? So you have to have it so that you can basically as a, well, I sort of alluded to it to it a second ago, but you can edit a chapter at a time and you know, that once you're done with that, it is done. Meaning that once I get to chapter 25, I'm not going to discover something that requires me to go back to chapter eight and, and redo some part of that. So you can understand that for this to work, the outline has to be very, very solid, right? So it also means that you are going to spend some more time in the outlining phase because you have to work out all the well, should we just call them different things, but you need to make sure that there is nothing that is missing or something that is inconsistent and stuff like that.

Jesper (32m 47s):
But if you do that, then you are gonna basically be able to edit the entire manuscript one chapter at a time. And as soon as you're done with the chapter, you're not going to see it again. And yeah, that's my preferred way of doing it because I hate redoing chapters again and again and again, but to some extent is probably also why I don't like editing in the first place because once I've gotten the story out of my head and onto the page, I really don't want to visit it again now. So

Autumn (33m 20s):
That seems fair enough. And I think this one though, you'd, if you're a pantser, this one is possible. If you do what I said first, if you do that first read through, take notes on everything that happens and, you know, get your, even, like I said, the new words and names or your setting, get all that information to a spreadsheet, a table. See, it's make sure everything needs sense. So, you know, make sure that at that point, if you're are, then you'd go back and look at your plot, make sure everything's fine. Put in your notes of what needs to be fixed. And then start doing the chapter one chapter two, chapter three, and just finish each one as you go. So if you didn't plot it in the first place, if you basically plot it on the second on the backend and then fix it, you could still do it as just like, basically, I don't know if you call that first one, a pass or just a read through.

Autumn (34m 7s):
It's not really, you're not editing, you're just taking notes, but it helps you, especially. I mean, I remember the first time, I mean, I know with you to the F ignoring the debut novel, which for everyone takes more than a year, unless you really know what you're doing with writing. So go to your second novel. It, it still took me about our year to write rule of fire and edit it. And so when you go back to that chapter, number one, you're like, Oh, I haven't seen this for a while and you need to reread it before you can really tackle, edits, even if you've plotted it. Because sometimes you're just like, Oh gosh, I can't remember what I even wrote there. So it feels good to do that. Read through, get yourself organized and then tackle your edits chapter by chapter.

Autumn (34m 50s):
You can certainly do this.

Jesper (34m 55s):
Hmm. Yeah. Well, or you can find somebody to do the editing for you.

Autumn (35m 1s):
I would say that's true. But I definitely, I have worked, have worked with slash seen something that literally looked like someone had written and then sent off to an editor and it didn't even have the dialogue tags don't do that. Don't don't, don't, don't don't ever do that, go through your work and at least put in like the quotation marks and things like that.

Jesper (35m 24s):
Yeah. It was probably my delivery that wasn't too. I was trying to make it feel fair to say that you get a writing partner and then you get her to do the editing and then you don't have this problem anymore.

Autumn (35m 36s):
That's true. Hmm. I wasn't actually implying, Oh, Hey, I've started to rethink this. No, absolutely not. I do enjoy writing with you and editing. So that's fair enough. Yeah. Well,

Jesper (35m 55s):
As usually we're lucky that we're good at different things. Yeah.

Autumn (35m 58s):
Yes. That's very true. And if I found that it's too right, I still have my own back-burner projects going on.

Jesper (36m 7s):
Right. Yeah. That's true. The last thing is not really a fourth way of doing it, to be honest, it's probably more like an add on thing. And I can't say too much about it because obviously I'm not the one editing I want, wanted to put it in here, just because then maybe you could add a bit about how you do it, but this is basically like whether you're doing it as a one go or you do several passes and then this part is about it's incorporated into one of those passes. That's up to you. Right. But what I mean is that it's the use of software. So like pro writing aid, we tested out Pictionary, we tested out autocrat.

Jesper (36m 50s):
And actually we might dive in deeper with these particular tools in future episodes and do a deep dive with them, but more on a high level note, you know, how do you make use of software to help you during editing? Yeah.

Autumn (37m 2s):
Oh, that sounds good because that's definitely, I mean, I've always used Grammarly, but I've recently I ran through AutoCrit and Fictionary and Pro Writing Aid and came up with some pros and cons on a winner. So I definitely think there's some, some things that can be added by using this level and one of them, and that would be sort of my add on to your ad then dumb number three is that you need to find a way of not seeing what you think you wrote, but what you actually put on the page. Oh, AI using the something, a software that can go through and like, say, Hey you did you really mean this word?

Autumn (37m 46s):
Or this is a homonym or you're missing the here having something to do that is useful. And you can do that with something like pro writing aid or you can, they say changing the font size or the text size changing, reading backwards. That was always one of my favorite ones because by reading it and reverse you, don't literally starting at the end paragraph and reading backwards. I usually go paragraph by paragraph, you don't get caught up in the story. And that is the one thing you do not want to do when you're, if you're doing a really intense, final editing round is don't get caught up in your own writing. You have to see the words. You have to see how many times you repeat the same word, because it is a writer's natural habit that when you use one word that you're like, Oh, that's clever.

Autumn (38m 30s):
Your mind is like sticks in your mind and you will use it two or three times on that same page. And you don't want to do that. You want to change things out. You want to find the source. So you want to find a better description, something different, a different sense you can use. And you can do that by going backwards or reading a loud or bigger text something. Yeah.

Jesper (38m 48s):
Loaded on Kindle. I actually quite liked that because when you move the medium on which you read away, you know, away from the computer away from Scribner, wherever it is that you wrote it and onto a different device, for example, on the Kindle, you will automatically read it slightly different because you know, on the Kindle you normally read your books. So your mind set when reading the words is different. Yes. So I quite like that trick as well to just sort of cheat your own mind and put it on Kindle. And then you can just, of course you can just highlight whatever, stay on your Kendall that you'd want to correct or something you can make highlights and notes on the Kindle as well.

Jesper (39m 30s):
So that's not really a problem, but I think it helps you spot things that you necessarily not necessarily would have seen in Scribner. We use Scrivener as an example here as your writing tool.

Autumn (39m 43s):
Yes. I agree. And it's you need to do something. Some people, you know, this is where they say, well, let it sit for three months. Well, in today's publishing world, I mean, especially if you're trying to be a career author, you don't usually have three months. You can let something you edited and is just about ready to be published. CIT, most readers kind of want to get it. So yeah, it's probably going to be something you're going to have to find a way of fooling yourself unless it happened to be book one of a trilogy and you've edited everything and then you're going to go back and release them back to back.

Jesper (40m 17s):
Yeah. But do you use the software as its own kind of pass or do you do it during the other passes that you do? I have

Autumn (40m 28s):
Using it as basically the third pass. So I usually go through my quick read through with all my notes. I go through a second round where I'm fixing everything in the notes and doing a lot more constructive. Story-building maybe bringing out the census things that I think are, are more creative. And when I'm ready to do the proofreading, the store is sorta like, when did I repeat this word too many times the mortar more technical, then I'll use something like a software, because at that point, my mind is more on the technical aspect and not the pretty word or the story building or the plotting. I know all of that is solid. I just need to look at word choice at that point or commerce.

Autumn (41m 12s):
And it's literally, I supposedly left-brain right-brain is not really a thing, but to me it's left brain right brain. So when I have switched over to these sheer technical side, it's I don't have to worry about the creative side anymore, unless I'm trying to choose sumptuous over delightful or something like that.

Jesper (41m 31s):
Right. Okay. Well, very good. Is there more on your process there that you want to share? Otherwise? I think I have a bit of a conclusion for us. Yeah, no, I think I've covered sort of how I do my process. So I think, you know, hopefully it gives someone some tips that there are many ways of editing about the only wrong way. The one we don't recommend is to do it literally as you're writing, especially if you haven't even finished the chapter, don't start editing and doubting yourself, especially if you're using it to just never finished because you don't think it's good enough. That's not the point of editing. If you're starting to do it as an undermining technique technique, and only you don't know if you're doing it that way.

Autumn (42m 12s):
If you have that little writer's voice and the doubt creeping in saying, that's not good enough, you've got to keep working on it. You got to keep worrying and you're never getting anywhere. Just stop, stop that, tell it to shut up and finish your chapter, finished your entire first novel and then go back and learn to edit and edit it. Don't don't give into pushing it, kicking it down the road, finish it. Hmm. Nope. Fair. And I think, well, to some degree, I think you've already mentioned what I wanted to say was the conclusion of all of this. I think, I think you'd actually did too, But then maybe

Jesper (42m 52s):
Just to reiterate, because it is important and the point is just that there is no right or wrong way of editing your novel. It really comes down to testing out the different options and then see what works for you. So we mentioned some options here. I'm sure that maybe, maybe some listeners can think of even more and if you can let us know, but at least we mentioned some options here, some pros and cons to each way of doing it. But I think the best thing you can do for yourself is to actually try out these different options. Not you might, you know, intuitively feel like, I think this one works best for me, but honestly you don't know until you've tried it.

Jesper (43m 35s):
So test them out too. And maybe even you're going to end up finding your own way, which might be a combination of some of them that you like one element from one approach and another from another, and then you combine it it, and then you have something that works for you. So I think that's the best advice we can give when it comes to editing. And it's the same thing. More or less cultural writing in general that you have to find your own path and nobody can tell you how to do it. Yes. And if you can't find your own fath, find a writing partner who has a good path and send it to them. That was part of the conclusion as well.

Narrator (44m 15s):
Okay. So next Monday, we are going to have a bit of fun autumn, and I will share with you 10 terrible ways to creating characters. So you can look forward to that. If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the am. Writing fantasy. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Ottoman Yesper on patrion.com/and writing fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the M writing fantasy podcast going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 113 – Getting a Traditional Publishing Contract (with Andrea Phillips)

We've been asked more than one occasion how an author can get a traditional publishing contract?

While Autumn did sign a traditional contract years back, none of us are experts on the subject matter.

To bridge that gap, we brought in the award-winning author, Andrea Phillips, to share some insights and advice on this very topic.

If you want to learn more about Andrea, you can find here:

http://www.andreaphillips.com
http://www.deusexmachinatio.com
http://twitter.com/andrhia

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt, and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper. And this is episode 113 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And while Autumn is busy editing one of our stories, I have a great guest on for you today. It just happens on a let's call it, semi-regular, basis that Autumn and I are asked about traditionally publishing contracts. And some are also interested in becoming what is known as a hybrid author, meaning that you are both sell publishing and traditionally published. So I thought this would be quite a good topic to cover while Autumn is busy doing other stuff. And while Autumn did have a traditional contract years back, we don't really have that much experience with this topic.

Jesper (1m 17s):
So today I'm going to be joined by Andrea Phillips and Andrea is an award winning transmedia writer. She does game designs and her projects have won awards like the broadband digital award, the Canadian screen award, and much more. She is published by FireSIGHT fiction. And her short fiction has been published in escape pod and the juice versus aliens anthology. So welcome to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Andrea, and I hope you are keeping safe during these crazy times.

Andrea (1m 51s):
Hello. Thank you. It's so exciting to, to be here and yes, yes. I'm, I'm keeping safe. I'm a hermit in my home. We're even snowed in right now. So I don't know if I could, well, no, I'm, I'm exaggerating. We, we do a lot of snow very recently, but I could probably escape if my house caught on fire, you know, it's, it's, it's not so bad. Yes. Yes. I am in New York, got a foot into half of snow over the weekend as we, as we record.

Jesper (2m 28s):
Oh my God. Yeah. We don't really have that much, you know, I'm in Denmark and we have like one centimeter of snow or something like that. And it has been snowing the last couple of days, but then yeah, everyday it melts away again. So it's just gray. That's what it is.

Andrea (2m 48s):
That's usually what happens to us, but I would have thought, you know, Denmark would be one of the places where it snows and then it just stays all winter. And you have piles and mountains of snow by the end. Yeah.

Jesper (3m 0s):
Well here between the Scandinavian countries, you know, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland, the other three countries actually do usually get quite a lot of snow because they're also much further North Norway and Sweden and Finland are huge countries compared to Denmark. It's just like this little dot and we're just slightly more South than the others, so we can sometimes get snow, but, and it does get cold during this winter, but most years actually, it's not that, that much. So yeah. But talking about the weather, we can always do that. No, that's okay.

Jesper (3m 41s):
It is. I'm the one starting it. So, but yeah, I, I did a short introduction of you there, Andrea, and it looks, or it sounds like you do quite a lot of things, but maybe you could share a bit more about yourself.

Andrea (3m 57s):
Sure, sure. I always try to find a way to explain how all of the things I do are kind of related. And the transmedia work that I do is, is immersive storytelling. And I do a lot of it for, for brands out of marketing budgets. So I might help to make an app. We're an alternate reality game for a TV show, a movie, a video game, and that's fiction writing. Usually it's, it's in someone else's Storyworld, but it's exactly the same set of tools that I use if I'm writing a novel for myself, in terms of thinking about sort of characters and motivations and so on and so forth.

Andrea (4m 40s):
And then I've written a nonfiction book about this sort of trans media, immersive storytelling, as well as having, you know, I have a novel that fireside published. I have a couple that I've self published and some shorts, and then, you know, I have a going freelance career. So I, I kind of do a little bit of all kinds of things and somehow together, it all seems to make up a career who knew

Jesper (5m 11s):
That's pretty cool. Yeah. I want to get into all the hybrid authorizing and contracts with traditional publisher. But, but before we go into all of that, do you find it's different to do the writing for games and, and, and those sorts of things, even though it it's, it's a story you're telling, but do you find the immersive part to be different compared to how you might want to immerse a reader into a novel?

Andrea (5m 35s):
It is different and it's, it's actually a, a point of view change. I do a lot of writing in, in what amounts to second person. So when you're, when you're doing immersive storytelling, the person that you're telling the story about, and the person that you're telling the story to are the same person, the audience needs to have some sort of active agency in the story to feel like they can affect the outcome to feel like they're really, really there. Like the story is real. And obviously in a novel, you you're a little more removed and everybody knows that they can shout at the page, but that doesn't mean that the character is going to make a good decision instead of a bad decision.

Andrea (6m 19s):
So it, it, it's, it's just a sort of a different framing and you can use different things in the one way or the other. I am. I actually like to talk about the, sort of the, the emotional palette of feelings that you can make your audience feel and with sort of traditional flat narrative, where the audience is removed from the story, you can make people laugh, you can make people cry. You know, they can feel grief over a character that's died. They can feel, you know, joyous at, you know, a heroes, great, great victory.

Andrea (7m 1s):
But when you're doing immersive storytelling, you can, you can do other different things. You can make an audience feel guilty over something that they did, which isn't something that you can really do in flat fiction. You can make them feel proud of their, their own achievements of what they've done, which is again, kind of hard to do in, in flat fiction. So it it's, it's, it's not, it's not better or worse, and it's not as different as this may make it sound, but it is definitely different.

Jesper (7m 34s):
Yeah. But you also have the, a visual medium to play with there, you know, and also of course, the agency of the person, for example, playing the game and, and so on. Right. So, so in that regard, I guess the medium is also quite different compared to a novel where you just have to imagine everything in, in your mind and you don't have any agency on what's going to happen.

Andrea (7m 56s):
That's even true going from Nala writing to film. So for, for a lot, a lot of my, my kinds of work, sometimes we'll do video content. A lot of it is, you know, of logs or security camera footage, kinds of things to, to make it seem sort of, sort of realistic. And I hadn't realized before I did this, how much more detailed and how much clearer in your vision, you have to be about every little thing. So, you know, when you're, when you're writing on the page, you can say, you know, messy dorm room, you know, there was a bicycle, you know, spoon on its side, whatever, and, and the, the one detail, and then the rest of it, the audience fills in the gaps themselves.

Andrea (8m 48s):
But in film, in, in script writing, you know, the producers came to me and said, okay, we need to know more. What, what kind of lighting is it? What color are the walls? What time of day is it? What is their hair like that day? Is it messy? Is it like, do they look like they've gotten enough sleep? You know, are there posters on the walls? Is it clean? Is it dirty? All of these things have to be decided on purpose. So I actually have a lot more respect for cinema than I did before, because it really, it really drives home, help. Everything you see in a movie was something decided by somebody to be there.

Andrea (9m 29s):
Nothing is by chance and then even, even doubly. So in a video game where literally nothing exists, every cloud, every rock is something that was put there on purpose.

Jesper (9m 43s):
Yes. Yeah. It's, it's a very different style of writing as well. And I think, well, sometimes I hear people say that they're gonna, I'm gonna write a screenplay off of my novel. And always I'm thinking like, to myself, like good luck, because I wouldn't dare do that unless I got a bit of training and insight on how to do it, because I think it's a much more complicated method than you think.

Andrea (10m 7s):
Yeah. The problem is that novels are very, very internal. The thing that they're good at is letting letting you know about the emotional terrain, the thoughts and feelings of your characters as they go through. And in, in film, you really can't rely on that coming through. So unless you have a very, very good actor and you can't, you can't rely on the actor, seeing things the same way as, as the writer did. It's it's funny. It's funny.

Jesper (10m 45s):
Yeah. I can see that, but maybe then getting a bit into topic here. So usually when we talk about being a hybrid author, as I said in the intro at the top, usually means that you'll have both self publishing works, but you have also something that you have a more traditionally published. So I was wondering why, why did you decide to become a hybrid author?

Andrea (11m 12s):
So the first self-publishing thing that I did was actually a little, a little story that I put on Kickstarter because I wanted an iPhone. And this is obviously going really far back. I think it was the iPhone two. And I thought, you know what? I have this story. I could try and sell it to a market and that would take a million years. And it probably wouldn't sell anyway because short fiction is really difficult to sell. So I said, well, if, if I get, you know, enough money to buy an iPhone, then I will really sit on my website free for everyone to read. I think, I think I even put a creative and, you know, people, people will get to read the story and I'll get my phone and everyone will be happy and it works.

Andrea (11m 60s):
And in fact, I got enough money to buy my husband and I phone also. So I thought, you know, that that's pretty great. So a little bit later, I kickstarted kind of a goofy cereal idea about pirates and it's a, it's a really sort of Gonzo weird light rompy story. And I did a Kickstarter for it. The Kickstarter was, was really quite successful. And afterward I, I made a choice of games game actually with choice script, which was also pretty, pretty modestly successful and did a couple of licensing things.

Andrea (12m 51s):
And, you know, I had not, not exactly an empire, but, you know, I, I, I made a decent amount of money with, with this, this sort of Lucy smoke cart thing. And then I, at some point in there, I did, I did my traditional novel through, through fireside with, you know, regular contract and then, and so on and so forth. And that was actually a really lovely experience because Brian White, my, my editor at fireside is a really fantastic human being and a really, really good editor. So he, he helped me to, to let it be the story that he could see I was trying to do.

Andrea (13m 35s):
And he wasn't trying to nudge it into being something that it, that it wasn't, which I think a lot of, a lot of writers are afraid will happen. And let me see, I did a bunch of, a bunch of stuff for cereal box in there too with, with book burners and so on. And my most recent novel is sort of a political thriller that I thought I would try and sell traditionally, but it was very topical. It sort of had to come out last summer because it is about an election. And if you're writing about an election, you probably want it to come out around the time of the election, not after the election.

Andrea (14m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I actually did give it to my agent and we had it on submission for a bit, but then we pulled it because it was, it was too slow, a process basically. And we hit the points where nobody had, had bought it just yet. And even though it was still under consideration in a bunch of places, given publishing timelines, which are so slow, it wouldn't be able to come out in time. It just wasn't feasible. And I thought, well, I'd rather have the book come out in the reasonable timeframe then than not. And this time I just, I just did it directly on, on KDP instead of doing a Kickstarter first.

Andrea (14m 60s):
And I actually do regret it because it didn't do as well as my other, other earlier starter things. And this is actually a failure of promotion on my part. Basically, I just didn't push it the same way because it's the year 2020 everyone was fatigued and it felt weird to be shilling a book, even if it's, you know, the book of your heart in that moment. So the stars didn't line up. It has nothing to do with the method through which I published it. And it has nothing to do with the book. It just, wasn't a good environment for me to be pushing anything, I guess, because I actually think it's one of the best books I've written.

Andrea (15m 41s):
This is the first thing I've written, where, where people came to me and said, Andrea, this is really good. And they sounded surprised, which makes me wonder if, if they'd been kind of exaggerating about how much I had like prior things.

Jesper (16m 1s):
Yeah. But I'm now that you sort of have a feet in both camps here. So that also gives you a bit of perspective. So I'm wondering from the way you see it, how do you see the main differences, but also, I guess, advantages of being a hybrid author.

Andrea (16m 19s):
I, I see the, the advantages are, are kind of, you could, you could pick and choose what you, what you want to try for in each category. And as, as a self publishing author, there are things that I know I'm going to want to write, that I will never ever be able to find a publisher for because the market is too niche for a publisher to want to sink money into, but the amount of money that I need to sink into something to get it out the door or self publishing is so much lower that I don't need to make the same amount to make it worthwhile. You know, so for, for an episode of Lucy smoke cart, you know, if I, if I were to sell, I'm going to make up numbers here.

Andrea (17m 4s):
I actually can't even remember real numbers. If I'm selling, you know, a thousand episodes to make a thousand dollars. And, you know, it's, it's, let's say 5,000 words long, again, I'm just making stuff up here. This has nothing to do with how, how the real things went. Then, then, you know, and I spent maybe $200 on a quick copy, edit and, you know, use the art that I already have. You know, I, I'm making $800 out of 5,000 words. And that's really great where a publisher isn't really going to be able to offer me kind of money for what is essentially a work of short fiction.

Andrea (17m 53s):
Right. And I can do it on my timeline and I can, you know, just, just kind of suit myself in every possible way. One of the problems that I've I've had, it's not really a problem, but one of the constraints I've had in my career is since I do so much work for other people's intellectual property, I'm used to working in a sandbox and having to take into account. No, what, what, what you're say, what clients say and what the clients bosses, bosses say.

Andrea (18m 36s):
And there's, there's a lot of Liberty in just being able to decide something on your own and, and do it. Like it's very satisfying to just be able to do something on your own in a really Gonzo way that said, I feel like self-publishing is a tremendously larger amount of work than writing something, submitting it, editing it and letting someone else worry about cover art, letting someone else worry about getting the copy, edit together, getting a line at it together, letting someone else worry about promotion and timing and availability and schedules. And, and sometimes I just don't have that in me, you know?

Jesper (19m 19s):
No, I understand that. I mean, with self publishing, you are going to get a lot of freedom, but you're also going to get a lot of tasks.

Andrea (19m 28s):
Yeah. And to some extent you, you get out of it, what you put into it, but, but you have to put in a lot before you start to see much of anything. Yeah.

Jesper (19m 41s):
But is it, so when you are the sort of deciding your next book, for example, I'm gonna self publish it or am I going to give it to my agent to sell it? Is it about the length of it? Versus for example, also it's a too niche or not, or how do you determine which ones are self puppies and which ones to ask your agent to take care of?

Andrea (20m 5s):
It's you know, it's, it's, it's sort of, I, I feel like in general, if I'm writing something novel length, I'm probably going to try and publish it through the traditional route. First, if I'm writing something that feels more like a cereal to me, or if it's shorter, probably go another path, but said, I don't know if you consider a short story publishing to be traditional publishing. But my, my go-to for a long time has been, if I want to publish a short story, I'll send it to escape, Potter, fireside, instead of doing like my, my sort of Kickstarter things and that, and that's a traditional route, just not books.

Andrea (20m 53s):
It's, it's, it's the other stuff, but I usually have a pretty good idea of where I want to send it while I'm writing it. And then at the end, I do have, I have material that my agent hasn't been able to sell. And in the case of my most recent book, I decided to self publish it because I really believed in it. And then in the case of another book, I'm actually just still sitting on it with the idea that we may be able to sell it later. And I don't think it would be a good fit for self publishing for me, just because of the nature of the book.

Andrea (21m 37s):
It's, it's hard to explain. I it's, it's, it's not even, it's an emotional thing. It's an emotional logic thing and not, and not an objective business decision, if you know what I mean.

Jesper (21m 49s):
No, no, that's fair enough. And not, not all decisions have to be objective all the time. I do know quite some of our listeners are interested in pursuing a traditional publishing contract. So if you were to give some listeners some advice here, what would you say in terms of how do you get started and what is sort of the best approach, if you want to find an agent and get a more traditional publishing contract and so on, how do you go about it?

Andrea (22m 22s):
I mean, it's, it's the same, it's the same advice on all of the blogs. And everybody says, you know, you, you do have to find, find a bunch of agents, see people who are buying, find people who are publishing things, sort of similar in feeling to what you would like to publish, figure out who represents them and, you know, write a good query letter or letter, send it out. None of this matters unless your material is already as polished as you can make it. I don't advocate going out and getting an editor before you start submitting and so on. But I mean, in the same with self publishing, you need to make sure everything is absolutely as polished as you personally can make it before you send it out into the world.

Andrea (23m 3s):
Right? This is actually pertinent advice for me personally, because I have a habit of dashing off a first draft and wanting to run with it. My defense, I do write fairly solid first draft. And then, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a difficult and slow process. And that's, I think why a lot of people find self publishing much more satisfying because it can take you a year to find an agent just waiting for an agent that will become yours to get around, to reading the manuscript and, you know, reading the partial and then asking you for the full and then reading the full and then, and then offering, it can take months and months to can take a year.

Andrea (23m 53s):
It can take longer. And nobody likes to feel like their career is on hold for that long. Right. And then submitting can take even, even that long or longer. I, I know, especially in Yia, it was really, really backed up for a while. And people were getting offers a year, a year and a half after their agents had submitted the manuscripts. And I mean, I know, right. And we can publish four novels. And at a certain point, you, you just can't wait forever. So yeah, I it's, it's the information on, on what to do on the, on how to do all of the right things is absolutely out there.

Andrea (24m 41s):
And none of it is, none of it is, is difficult, which is to say, it's not, it's not hard to figure out what the right thing is to do, but it is to figure out whether or not you can make your book any better than it is. It is hard to wait that long. It is, you know, hard to maintain professionalism in all of your correspondence and essentially become your own marketing person and writing a query letter when the skills that go into writing a novel and the skills that go into writing a good blurb for that novel are really not the same thing at all. Yeah. And what does it mean?

Andrea (25m 24s):
You're great at the other, go ahead.

Jesper (25m 26s):
No, indeed. No, that's exactly what I was about to say as well, because even if you say that, okay, I'm going to self publish it. You're going to be confronted with a lot of marketing skills or the need for marketing skills that you don't need when you're writing the novel. So in some extent, I guess to some extent, I guess you could say that it doesn't matter if you go one route or the other, you will be confronted with the fact that you have to put some marketing skills in place and exercise those skills in order to, to get somewhere. But I was also wondering, because we see some, at least some of the big, you know, it used didn't, it used to be the big six and now it's a big five and I guess it's going to be the big four soon as well.

Jesper (26m 8s):
So those are merging together, but at the same time, we also see smaller publishers popping up in the market space. So I'm wondering, do you see that it's, is it easier? Is it more difficult or is it the same difficulty level to, to find an agent and find a traditional publishing contract nowadays versus what it was maybe four or five years ago?

Andrea (26m 31s):
I feel like it's about the same level of difficulty, even, even with the publishing mergers, for the most part, the number of imprints is still about what it was. You don't see, you see one of these mergers basically shutting down one of the arms completely, but I feel like the level of competition is about what it was four or five years ago. The, the marketplace has changed some, but only in the way that that publishing has sort of cyclical fads, you know, this is hard. And then that's how it's.

Andrea (27m 12s):
So, so it goes, I, I don't know. I feel like it's never going to be easier or harder, but also it's kind of a moot question because you, you don't have the option to go back and submit four or five years ago. It's now is what, you know, you know, but

Jesper (27m 34s):
I was more thinking that it might be a bit helpful to understand the difficulty level. If you have to, if you're sort of, if a listener is sitting there thinking, should I try or should I not try? Should I just self-publish instead of even trying than it is, of course, I think an important input to have in your mind to say, well, it is a lot more difficult nowadays or no, it's actually the same. So you can go ahead and so on.

Andrea (28m 0s):
I mean, it's, it's a lot more difficult than it was in the 1940s. The that's that's about is as solid as, as I think I could even say it it's, it's very difficult. It is definitely very difficult. It has been very difficult for at least all of, all of my career. It will probably remain very difficult, but that said promoting and marketing and succeeding and self-publishing is also very difficult. And anyone who's done it is there tremendous accolades because it's a ton of work and, and does a ton of work, but it's not easy to do well. So that's absolutely true.

Andrea (28m 41s):
The problem is if you want it to be a writer and you want it to be published through any means, it's, it's not the sort of career where you were going to be able to kind of Slack off and take it easy and to have your career take care of itself, that that is never going to happen.

Jesper (28m 60s):
No, I think we've said multiple times on, on, on former episodes of this podcast as well, that if you get into writing, thinking that you're going to earn money, then just quit now because there's way easier ways of earning money than writing

Andrea (29m 14s):
So many easier ways.

Jesper (29m 17s):
But one thing I was wondering as well though, was that I can just imagine if I put myself into the mind of somebody who have tried to pitch agents or publishers for ages, and let's say like two years later, some agent comes back to you and say, Hey, you know, I'm actually prepared to take this on. I can imagine a lot of people jumping at the opportunity thinking like, wow, that's wonderful. Finally, I succeeded, but how do you actually know? Because one of the things that we do a lot when we self published autumn, and I, for example, when we select an idiot editor, we are on the opposite side of the table in the sense that we are the one hiring the editor.

Jesper (30m 1s):
But in this case, it's the opposite of way around. But just because somebody says that they want to hire you, it doesn't necessarily mean that this is a good agent, that you're going to work well together with the person and so on. But I'm just a bit concerned that because of the long timescales and waiting time involved, that some people might just jump at the opportunity, even if they've got feeling a sort of saying to them that there's something off here, but how do you go about, or do you have any advice on, how can you possibly vet a bit about if somebody come an agent comes to you and say, Hey, let, let's make a, let's make an attempt here to get your, a properties in contract. How can you figure out if this is a good person or not?

Andrea (30m 43s):
Yeah. Agenting relationships are really difficult. They're, they're a lot like a business partner partnership, which is in turn a lot like a marriage. And the power dynamic is also very strange because the agent works for the writer, but the way that the getting an agent happens, it's common for the writer to feel like they work for the agent. And it's, it's resulted in a lot of kind of bad relationships, frankly, bad marriages, where the agent isn't working very hard on behalf of the writer and the writer feels like, well, this is just their, their lot in life, because this is the agent that shows them.

Andrea (31m 28s):
You always do have the ability to, to walk away. And if you feel like, if you feel like the agent, isn't actually very enthusiastic about your work. If they, if you get the vibe that they're only interested in this one book, and they're not interested in your career overall, if you get the feeling that they think that they can make a quick buck out of your book, if you get the feeling that they're chasing the market and not all in on you personally, then those are, those are red flags, I would say. But on top of that, you know, there are people who love an agent who gives them a really, really detailed set of feedback on, on a manuscript before they even submit it.

Andrea (32m 17s):
And there are writers who absolutely hate that and just want the agent to sell what they wrote already. And you have to look in your heart and decide if you want a hands-on agent or a hands-off agent. And then maybe do a little bit of research before you even submit to see what working with different agents is like to see if they even sort of sell. We're seeing to like the, the sub genre you work in. One of my problems is I, I have trouble deciding what genre I even work in. So finding an agent that actually, I guess, deals with my kind of work is a little weird.

Andrea (33m 5s):
But yeah. And the other thing is if, if you write, let's say a lot of horror and a little bit of science fiction, and you have an agent that represents a little bit of science fiction and a lot of romance, but they're interested in your science fiction work like that tells you probably that's not a good match because they don't represent the kind of work. That's the bulk of what you're going to want to try to sell. It's it's just, it's, it's complicated and messy. And unfortunately there's no one true right way to do any of it, which before, before we started recording, I think I said, I said something to you about how we're all just sort of making it up as we go along.

Andrea (33m 50s):
And it sounds, it sounds like a joke, but it's literally true. We're all making up our stories as we go along, but we're also all making up how our careers work as we go there, there are no rules. There, there aren't any, even many good rules of thumb. You know, if, if your agent isn't sending you royalty statements, maybe fire them. If your agent isn't sending you, your royalty checks, definitely fire them. And beyond that, it's all a matter of fit and suitability and what you want and what they want. And whether it's the same thing.

Jesper (34m 27s):
It's a lot about, I think being honest with yourself because it is, it doesn't matter. Well, you absolutely right in the sense that the agent works for the author, but I would almost go as far to say it doesn't really matter who works for whom in the, in the relationship, as long as you're honest with yourself and you know, what kind of partners do I want to work with? And you're, you're both sort of pulling in the same direction because at the end of the day, it is a very, very close working relationship. And I say that, of course, without having any agent, we self publish all our work. But, but, but I have heard so many times from those who do have an agent, that it is a very, very close working relationship.

Jesper (35m 12s):
And, and if you don't feel like, you know, you're pulling equal amount of the weight, then what's the point.

Andrea (35m 20s):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it's, it's easy to feel like B agent picked you. And so that's the agent that you get, but the reality is actually very different. And unfortunately, in many cases you do an agent. There are a lot of publishing houses that simply won't accept material that wasn't sent through an agent. So this isn't the sort of situation where you can say, well, who needs them? I'll just go on my own and keep the 15%. But it's, it's complicated. Everything is complicated.

Jesper (36m 1s):
Yeah. But let's say you then find your, the agent that you work well with. You have a very good cooperation and then you do at some point land, one of the publishing deals with some publishing house that the agent has sold you, your book to one of the things I hear a lot, and I suppose that's true as well, but maybe you can add your reflections to it is that you can't really expect that much marketing support from a publishing company, unless you are like one of the real big headed names, but otherwise you are almost on your own like UI, if you were indie publishing, it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

Jesper (36m 41s):
Is that also your view?

Andrea (36m 43s):
It's, it's kind of true. It's mostly true, but it's also kind of not true at all. One of the, one of the big things to note is that one of the big advantages I should say of, of going with a traditional publisher is that they will be able to get your book on bookstore shelves. And that is incredibly difficult through any sort of a self publishing schema. So simply having your book on shelves does wind up selling more and simply being published through, you know, Hachette or random house. You know, we'll make sure that more people are going to see your book for more opportunities for people to notice because you're, you're starting out at an advantage.

Andrea (37m 34s):
You're more likely to be sent to, you know, publishers weekly. You're more likely to be sent to Kirkus. You're more likely to be sent to a lot libraries like libraries, journal, librarian, journal, I'm sorry, I'm screwing it up. And you can see things on your own as self published, but it costs tremendous amounts of money out of pocket. And you're not necessarily guaranteed any, any sort of quality good review. And especially you're not guaranteed that anyone will see it where the weight of the publishing house sending you to publishers weekly instantly sort of, sort of gets you up a notch out of, out of the vast sea of publishing that self publishing work.

Andrea (38m 26s):
And so you're more likely to get noticed more easily. You're more likely to be able to get distribution in libraries, which can, can result in quite a lot of sales, you know, and that sort of thing. It's, it's, it's, it's just being in a publishing house results in, in a bit of a bump up. But,

Jesper (38m 46s):
But I suppose it also depends on what publishing house we're talking about, because of course, one of, some of the bigger publishing houses, they have, you know, big muscles that they can, they can flex in order to get into airports and bookstores and all those things, but whereas a smaller publishing house, well, they might really not be able to do much that you can't do. I'm thinking

Andrea (39m 9s):
For a very small house. Yes. But even, even like a small beer, you know, one of the, one of the smaller presses subterranean doesn't do solicited sort of original material, but like the smaller presses even still have the gravitas of sending to the reviewers and in turn selling to librarians, for example, that you have to pay a lot of money to get otherwise. I mean, they're, they're not going to be all sending you out on a book tour, or they're not all going to be putting, putting your book on, on bus shelters or billboards or subway or wherever else.

Andrea (39m 51s):
Honestly, nobody is going to do that for you unless you are Dan Brown. I think part of that is because publishing advertising doesn't have a history of a specially working very well. I I'd actually be interested in hearing you talk about advertising for self publishing at some point, because it's my understanding that there's a lot of advertising you can do. And very little of it is proven to work

Jesper (40m 22s):
Well. Yes mean we have, we have multiple episodes on this feed as well about marketing books as a self-published author. But there is indeed a lot of things you can do across Amazon ads. You can run BookBub ads, Facebook ads, all this click to play ads. There's ton of it. But the thing is that it's not, it's not that easy. It's not like you just create an ad and then you start selling books because first of all, there is the return of investment that you have to take into account. So you can't just bit like $2 per click or something because the, the book costs $2, maybe.

Jesper (41m 3s):
So, so it's, it's pointless. So there's, that's you take into account

Andrea (41m 7s):
The dollars to make $20. Yeah,

Jesper (41m 9s):
Indeed, indeed. So you might be able to get to the stage where you're selling books, but you're not earning anything from it. So that in itself is an issue. So from the inter indie author perspective, you can move some sales short-term by click to play ads. If you're short of narrow down to your audience well enough, and you do well enough in your ad copy and so on. But the real trick of the trade is, is to build an email list because that's where your money is longterm. And that's where, that's where our focus, my myself and autumn. For example, we only focus on building the email is we do have some kick to play ads running, but not a lot. And we don't spend a ton on it.

Jesper (41m 51s):
We just have a bit running. But other than that, all our marketing goes into trying to give people some something for free in order for them to join the email list so that we can start talking to the people, not, not about selling to them, but more over time, build a relationship with them via emails and they get to know us better. And then of course, if they like us, then at some point we hope that they're going to buy some of the books. But again, if you just get people onto the email list with the only purpose that I'm going to send you a ton of emails, promoting some stuff, that's not going to help, you'll have to go into it because you want to have an online relationship. Let's call it that with the readers.

Jesper (42m 31s):
Otherwise it's, it doesn't matter as, as well because people will just unsubscribe. I'm sure you can. You can recognize if you, the, the email list you might have signed up to where they just keep emailing, you offers about this and that it's, it's pretty annoying.

Andrea (42m 46s):
The worst one I ever had was for a children's clothing brand, who, who I signed up for, for my, for my daughter. And they wound up sending the marketing email literally every hour.

Jesper (43m 2s):
No, but, but it, it, it's this very fine balance to walk because on one hand, you have also to get your email list into the mindset that once in a while, I am going to try to make you an offer for, to buy something that is going to happen. But you have to walk this fine balance between I'm not here to push sales in your face all the time. And I'm here to actually, because I want to us to have like a two way communication going over the emails. But at the same time, once in a while, I do hope that you're going to buy something because if you're not, then I can't even keep doing this anyway. Right. So there is that element into it. And I know authors who sell puppies, authors, who either try to sell all the time, which is not good, but there are also those who fear selling anything.

Jesper (43m 52s):
So they just keep being buddy buddies with the people on the email list forever without ever selling them any of the books. And that doesn't help either. Because at the end of the day, you're paying for the people who are on your email is so you have to sell something as well. So it is a very fine balance to walk. And I think as you said, as well around the traditionally publishing stuff with it, none of this is easy, right? It doesn't matter which route you take, you aid. It is not easy.

Andrea (44m 19s):
Yeah, yeah,

Jesper (44m 21s):
No, no. If there, is there anything we S I sort of forgot or didn't think about asking you when it comes to traditional publishing contracts or being hybrid authors that you like, this is an important point that should have been mentioned.

Andrea (44m 35s):
I just, I just want to reiterate there's, there's kind of no, no right. Or wrong way to do anything. It's, it's what works for you and doesn't work for you and what works for your audience and doesn't work for your audience. So your circumstances may be different. Your, your goals may be completely different. It's entirely possible that you're not in it for money, but for, you know, reach and you want to find a way to reach as many people as possible. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to say, you know, it's, it's all a matter of, of what you want to get out of it. And you have to have that in mind before you start deciding how to do it.

Andrea (45m 16s):
Just like everything else in life.

Jesper (45m 18s):
No, that makes a lot of sense. And I also want to thank you, Andrea, for coming on to the, a am writing fantasy podcast here today and, and give us some insights on, on an area where at least autumn and I are not the most proficient people. So that was nice to get some insight inputs on that, because I know, I know some listeners, I interested in this area, so, so thank you for doing this.

Andrea (45m 43s):
It's been a really good time. Thank you.

Jesper (45m 45s):
Excellent. Is there any place where people can go on the internet or you want to point people on the internet, if they want to learn, learn a bit more about you?

Andrea (45m 54s):
I would say you can go to my website, which is , which is a pun in Latin, but you can actually also go there by Andrea phillips.com. It goes to the same place, because I realized I had made a terrible mistake at some point. And I am sometimes on Twitter and D R H I a.

Jesper (46m 24s):
Okay. That's perfect. So, Andrea, I'm also thinking that if you email me those links, then I will put those in the show notes for you and people can follow them straight from there.

Andrea (46m 37s):
Wonderful. I'll do that right now.

Jesper (46m 40s):
Perfect. That was the wrong sounder. This one was the one I was looking for. So next Monday, Autumn will be back and we're going to talk about one of her favorite topics, namely editing a novel.

Narrator (46m 56s):
If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcasts going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 112 – Goodreads Marketing for Authors

Goodreads is a social platform where readers congregate.

Are the ways in which we can market our books to these people without being sleazy?

Jesper has no idea about Goodreads, so he asks all the stupid questions, while Autumn tries to convince him that Goodreads is a good platform.

(For the record, Jesper did claim his author profile on Goodreads the day after the recording of this episode)

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper. And I'm autumn. This is episode 112 of the Am Writing fantasy podcast. And we're going to discuss a topic today where, eell, I'm a total noob.

Autumn (46s):
That's very honest stuff, you know?

Jesper (48s):
Yeah. But luckily, well you autumn, you're not. And so we're going to talk about how to use good reads as a promotional tool to market books. So I don't know anything about that.

Autumn (1m 3s):
Yeah. You've never even claimed her author profile on there. You probably have reviews that you've never even looked at, but I can't imagine I enjoy. Goodreads is one of those things, I, I want to be on it more than I am. So maybe this will be another reminder to myself to get back on there and do something now maybe.

Jesper (1m 24s):
And I I'm hoping that I will learn a thing or two today as well.

Autumn (1m 28s):
Maybe I'll inspire. You. You'll have to tell me if I inspire you to maybe think about claiming your author profile by the end of today's podcast while you're setting yourself a very high goal. I, I took persuasive Fessel philosophy in my persuasive psychology actually in my college days. So we'll have to see if it comes out.

Jesper (1m 52s):
Yeah. Yeah. Just don't get disappointed.

Autumn (1m 57s):
Right. I'll try. Maybe I can convince you to give me your author profile.

Jesper (2m 2s):
Well that you could probably yes.

Autumn (2m 4s):
Okay. We'll have to see how it goes.

Jesper (2m 8s):
Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. I know you have a crazy times on your end. How's it going with all your jinxing of electronic stuff and destroying computers and have you screwed something else in the meantime?

Autumn (2m 21s):
Oh yes, absolutely. Besides destroying battery operated water pumps, I managed to, for some reason, make Adam's Mac, my husband's at Mac air unstable. So it stopped connecting to the internet. I just, my phone's. Okay. Thank goodness. It must be as no, we have a life case on that and it is, we've been joking because yeah, I've told you, my husband knows the, the Fe and my next series, I'm releasing, they cannot touch and they actually end up putting electronics and Faraday cages.

Autumn (3m 3s):
And it's like, my husband's now talking about making me go. I'm like, Oh, I can brand that for my books. So I still think he thought I'd be that excited about hearing. I can get my very unfair day cage from my laptop.

Jesper (3m 19s):
That would be a very interesting author image. And try to explain why, why you're sitting inside a cage.

Autumn (3m 29s):
I might need it. I do not know why things go scurry around me, but I've been extremely cursed racks the last couple of weeks. But I did just pick up my laptop like 45 minutes before we needed to get into recording today. And the student Q and a. So I'm I actually got it online and all my files were actually there. The logic board had been toasted somehow, but it didn't destroy my files. Just the logic board go figure I broke logic, but it's feels so good to have it back. And it's working and they replaced the keyboard and it's also fancy and nice.

Autumn (4m 13s):
It almost looks new for the memory was only decent. I'd be happy. It'd be perfect.

Jesper (4m 19s):
I honestly really hope that you're going to get out of your jinxing cycled quite soon so that you can just, you know, don't break things and just get back into your group without all this stressful stuff. It's Oh my God. I feel bad for you.

Autumn (4m 37s):
Yeah, it definitely had a few days where I've closed up shop early and just gone and read by Kindle, which thank goodness it hasn't broken on me yet either, but my husband actually knows I'm accident prone. So he got me like the most indestructible Kindle that you can buy. It's called a Voyager and it is like shockproof waterproof, you know, drop, kick it proof. I don't know if it's me proof, but so far so good. Knock on wood. Yeah.

Jesper (5m 4s):
Maybe Amazon will learn something that it was not as proven as they thought it was.

Autumn (5m 9s):
Oh yes. Well, if anyone ever wants to test something to see if it's, indestructable send it to me, I've broken indestructable glasses before, so please let me have a try.

Jesper (5m 22s):
Not even from trying, it's just not, you just use it normally and then you will break it.

Autumn (5m 27s):
That's true. I confess that as true anyway, but how are things on your side of the ocean?

Jesper (5m 36s):
Well, nothing as exciting as on your side, that's for sure. Yeah. I don't really know if there's that much to share since last week's episode. It's just been one of those working weeks where I've just been focusing on getting my words in these, the first draft of the reader magnet is done now. Yeah.

Autumn (5m 55s):
Yes. You sent that to me, at least your, I still have to do

Jesper (5m 58s):
My edits and add to it, but yeah, we've been writing. It's been exciting. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And as we said before, we not very good at celebrating. You actually pointed this out to me in an email, you said like, remember to celebrate, like, and, and honestly I did actually think about it when I sent you the last chapter. I did stop for two seconds to think maybe I should celebrate. So, and then I went onto the next thing on its dupe list, but so he had a two second acknowledgement of an achievement. And then, but I always, I almost would say that those two second is already an improvement because before I didn't even have those.

Jesper (6m 40s):
So it is slightly better, but not a, not a lot better. I could also mention that the, I just wrote up a whole post for our patron supporters on how the new iOS 14 rollout that is coming here early 20, 21 might affect Facebook ads. So this is, yeah, this is a pretty big deal for us authors who rely heavily on Facebook ads and the new iOS 14 will actually block some ad stuff or I would say not blocked, but it's, it's more to do with the fact that previously Apple operated with an opt out methodology, so that if you did not want the phone to share information with Facebook, for example, you had to actively go in and opt out via settings.

Jesper (7m 35s):
And the Apple is changing that with the new iOS so that you have to opt in. So you will actually be prompted by your phone to say, do you want your, your, the phone to share information with, for example, Facebook? And of course, most people will say, no, we don't want that. And then some of the ads becomes a problematic to run because Facebook cannot collect the data that they could before. So yeah, I wrote up a whole post on Patrion for our supporters on how I view this, what are the consequences, how to deal with it. So that was sort of a scary and interesting thing all at once there. That is, that sounds interesting.

Autumn (8m 16s):
Cause I know for me, I actually run Firefox and they have a Facebook corral, which blocks you from the Facebook pixels on websites. And I always feel sneaky by doing that, but I also feel like I'm undermining someone else's data. Oops.

Narrator (8m 34s):
A week on the internet with the Am Writing Fantasy podcast.

Jesper (8m 39s):
To welcome back Jeffrey on Patreon.

Autumn (8m 42s):
Yes. Thank you, Jeffrey, for coming back, you had a little glitch where you're gone for a little while and you've returned to us. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jeffrey, for your continuous support of the am writing fantasy podcast. We really appreciate that. And I dunno, I feel like saying a few words about Patreon here or Yeah, that's, it's, it's a very wonderful platform and it really, it is what supports this podcast and lets us pay for the recording and the hosting and all of those things that is actually all paid out of pet pantry on every single month. So thank you for everyone who supports us there.

Jesper (9m 22s):
Yeah. And I fully understand that, you know, we live in a media reality right now where podcasts are free and that's fine. The reality though is also that we can't make a living from something that is free. So that's where we use patron and we are not running any ads on the podcast either. So we're not getting any money from there. So we entirely funded by patron as, as autumn just said, I could also mention, for example, that we just, we did have a, this week, one of our very strong patron supporters leave us on Patrion or the last week due to the person's financial situations. And that is fully understandable people.

Jesper (10m 2s):
So changes, you know, circumstances can change in your financial situation. And first and foremost, you have to take care of yourself. So I'm just saying this because supporting us on patron doesn't mean that it has to be forever. If you have the capability support with maybe just $1 a month for now, that is awesome and it makes a difference. And then if you laid on your circumstances might change, then don't feel bad about it. It's perfectly fine. If you don't have to drop out and spend your money somewhere else after all, you have to take care of yourself and your family before anything else. I think that the one thing I would like to point out autumn here is just that I think that the trouble with this kind of thing is that most people always think that somebody else will take care of the supporting stuff, you know?

Jesper (10m 54s):
And in truth, if everyone just stopped thinking that and pitched in with a dollar, then I wouldn't have even have to mention this at all, because then it would be fine. Yeah. At the end of the day,

Autumn (11m 7s):
The Wikipedia often says the exact same thing. And I always do think, you know what? I can sit there asking for like two bucks, I always send Wikipedia something when they ask. I admit it.

Jesper (11m 18s):
Yeah. I mean, the thing is that this podcast is not just recorded for the fun of it. We actually do take it quite seriously. And we're trying to give you very useful and also some, sometimes just entertainment but useful advice. And if you do appreciate that, if you find it helpful in any way, please go and check out Patrion and you can follow the link in the show notes and see if, if maybe it would be something you could support us a bit there. Yeah.

Autumn (11m 49s):
Don't forget with our new website rebuild, which is finish by the go check out and writing fantasy.com. But if you go to am writing fantasy, fantasy.com/writing hyphen tips, or just go into the website and go into the blog, we actually added a button just to donate. So if for some reason you don't want to do patchy on you don't want to do. I mean, there's rewards there and hundreds of posts at this point and writing tips and marketing tips. But if for some reason you don't want to do that, but you would like to help us out and be able to, you know, support the podcast. You just want to do a one-time little gift. We made that possible on the website. So go check that out and we appreciate that as well.

Autumn (12m 31s):
Thank you so much because it does really help keep the lights on here, especially when you have one, half of your tribe is electronic accident prone. Yes. Okay. Anything else to add to, or should we move on to our conversation on Goodrich will only, I can say that it's not true of the moment, but by this time this is released. We will be over 3000 members on am writing fantasy Facebook in our group. And we're so close right now. We're, we're literally a day or two away. So, but definitely by the time this is released. So come join us on am writing fantasy Facebook, because it's just growing like insane. And when everyone there is wonderful.

Autumn (13m 15s):
Excellent. Yes, please do that. So there's probably something like a hundred million readers on Goodrich. I believe autumn probably close. I think the last time I'd seen was 95 million was the stats they had released when I took a webinar with them a year ago. So it's probably gotta be a hundred million readers, not just members, readers, people who love books. It's some million people look, I love books website. And I think this is one of the reasons why I'm a newbie to good reads because you know, in our little, let's say publishing company here, you, you and my publishing company advertising is sort of the stuff that I do, but good Reese has like considering you have your, okay, let me just put out a good read CEO here.

Autumn (14m 13s):
All right. So I'm an in, I'm in a meeting with the other executives and it's like, how many people do we have on the platform now? A hundred million. Okay. That sounds good. How do we capitalize on that? Well, so we don't why, well, I don't know. We don't have any ways to put any ads or monitor these people. So they're just using our platform and it's scrape. Yeah. Okay. Maybe it's great, but is I just don't get it. I mean, why can you not place apps on Goodrich? For example, with that many people, it would, it's like the most obvious place to advertise, but you, you can a bit,

Jesper (14m 52s):
And we're going to talk about that, but it's very limited.

Autumn (14m 55s):
It is very limited and it used to be a little less limited. I used to run good rates ads, but compared to AMS ads, they actually didn't perform that well, which is just to me crazy because these are people who love books, but yeah, use only so many ways you can actually give good reads money, which is probably why those ways that you can get good reads money. It costs quite a bit of money, but in its own way, from the author perspective, that's actually awesome. It's hard to give them money. You have to, there's other ways that you can go talk to these readers and find them.

Autumn (15m 35s):
And so it's all free. It's kind of cool.

Jesper (15m 40s):
It is cool. But I have a feeling that a lot of stuff that we're going to talk about here, or rather that you're going to talk about and I'm going to listen. But I think a lot of it has to probably do with there's a lot of time investment involved here. I have a feeling

Autumn (15m 56s):
There could be, but I mean, I guess if you're going, if you consider it a social media platform that is a hundred percent readers, why would you go to Facebook where it's like your aunt, Betty and your cousin, and they don't even read your books or do you want to go where there's readers, who you can go in, like sort through by the genre and find them and connect with them and have a great fan base. Where should you be spending your time? If you're going to spend some time on social media, it's not, you know, or looking at political tweets.

Jesper (16m 31s):
Yeah, no, I understand that. But maybe just before we get into all of those things that you can do, do you have any, because as you said before, it's even when you could run ads, they were not converting very well. And given that there is a hundred million or 95 or whatever, I don't think those 5 million makes a difference, but let's say around a hundred million readers on good reads. Why, if no, let me rephrase that. If it was very effective in terms of selling or marketing your books, I would think that every author would spend quite a lot of time on good reads, but I spent quite a lot of my time brushing up on the latest marketing things and, and ad strategies and all I do that all the time.

Jesper (17m 24s):
And I never ever hear about you should be spending time on good reads. So I'm just wondering now that I've never really used good reads. So of course I'm, I don't have any, let's say I don't have any standpoint in terms of arguing why or why not, but I'm wondering if you have any reflections on why is it not converting that well, w w what is it is it's to do with the audience that is Andrea or

Autumn (17m 50s):
Why? I think it's the, I think it's sort of almost like talking about a Kindle unlimited. If you, I know some authors who are a hundred percent Kindle, Kindle unlimited, and they're making a living wage off of that. And I know some authors who are on good reads and they are invested, it is their number one social media platform. It's where they spend all their time and the ones who are doing that. I mean, you're talking directly to readers and they're doing well. They, the webinar I took with good reads said that, you know, if they showed some books, that's like, this is a new release. This is one that basically went on fire on good reads.

Autumn (18m 31s):
And because of that, it was very popular across the board. Got the New York times bestseller lists all of these things simply because it started on good reads and got that burn going. So it can be an incredibly powerful platform, but I think most authors are spread out or they're not concentrating enough on just one platform and doing really, really well in it. And I mean, I have to say, like, I, I love good reads, but I also hate it because it is owned by Amazon now. And they have not put much money into it as it is like a 1990s platform. It looks terrible. Yes.

Autumn (19m 11s):
It's a really old, outdated, it's a forum. I don't even particularly like forums. You can't, you have to know HTML to even put in an image much less an image and a link. So you have to know a little bit of coding. Yes. You actually have to know coding to you mean you could just do stuff kind of blandly, but if you want it to make it look pretty again, that's probably my graphic designer decide coming out there that, you know, I, I know HTML coding whenever I'm on there and I want it putting in post photos and things. So it's so archaic and everyone keeps trying to create the next good reads. You know, a lot of platforms are trying to create a new version of good reads, but no, one's managed to knock it out of the number one spot for readers.

Autumn (19m 54s):
And I think there's a few reasons there, and maybe it's inertia because everyone's already there and until it explodes or Amazon takes it away, or it makes it a paid for platform. They're just going to say on good reads, because right now, even though Amazon owns it, it's kind of, it's got its own people, its own personality. It has librarians that manage the data and stuff. And they're fun to talk to. I've had to, I've had the fun of asking them a few questions. So it's got its own kind of thing going. I think, I think if you really, if even me, if I really invested the time and got going, the number one thing you can do as an authored to change your book sales is to go and talk to readers to go and build up your reader base Emma's are good.

Autumn (20m 40s):
Reads is a fantastic place to go and do that, but you have to be invested and dedicated and not just jump in and out and in and out, you got to go in and be part of the group. And the membership know that that part is perfectly fair. And I understand that, but I guess my question is, can you get them and maybe we're going to get into this so you can save the answer. If it's something we've got to get into any way. But as I said, I'm a new PSO. I'm I'm asking the stupid questions. Fair enough. But can you get people off of good reads and onto your email list in any easy way? Short of there is I think one or two ways and we will get into that.

Autumn (21m 20s):
So, yes. Okay. But let's go. Not as easy, it's not as easy as adding a button to your good reads author profile. It's not that easy, but there are other ways that you can do that. Okay. Well, what do you want to stop them? Well, I think we should start with the obvious ones. And one of them we've already touched on is that good reads used to do advertising, used to do self-service ads, almost the same as AMS ads, except it was actually a little more archaic and old fashioned AMS is like so much more sleek compared to what you could do on good reads. And I have used them and it took for ever to even spend $50 there.

Autumn (22m 4s):
It just was, it was really, I can see why they stopped doing it because they were not serving very well. They did not generate a lot, but I thought it was funny because just to double check before we ran this today is I did check on what their advertising says and it says no longer doing it, but they did say that this is literally for quote, for larger budgets, looking to drive maximum awareness on good reads, contact our advertising team to learn about our customized book, launch packages from larger budgets. So if you're a brick and mortar publisher or JK Rowling go to Goodwill. Yeah. I would think it was something similar to because Amazon also has it, the advantage program.

Autumn (22m 47s):
If you get into that, you, you can get not the investors program itself, but I forgot what it's called, but they have some, some branding banner stuff that you can get posted on, on Amazon. And I think if I remember correctly, I think the minimum spend to get into that program is 50 K. Oh my goodness. I was like, you don't just do that, right? No, no, no, no. So you, you were a serious publishing house or an author who is amazing. Yeah. When you can say, Oh yeah, 50 K nut up problem. So there is that. And I think the other thing that most people know good reads for is book giveaways.

Autumn (23m 27s):
Because if you're a reader, you know, there is a way it's so easy to sign up for either an ebook or a paperback of giveaway. And I remember the day where they were actually, I think the cheapest $50, maybe it was more, but there was a time they were super cheap to run. But now the minimum, the starting price is $119. So they're not that cheap anymore. That's not horrible. And if you're going to run a Kindle one, it has to be, you have to be published through Amazon. So through KDP and you can give up to a hundred books of an ebook giveaway, or if you want to do a print book giveaway, you can have a smaller, you know, just do like five print books or even 10.

Autumn (24m 10s):
So those two options are there. And I think most people know about them. And I did them once upon a day. But now that they're a little more expensive, I save up for maybe a big splash, like the final book of a series or something like that. You want know, do something special with it, but those are great, great and popular ways of actually quickly connecting with readers. So if you want to give one a try, I would highly recommend it.

Jesper (24m 39s):
Yeah. And the one thing I do understand about these giveaways is that one of the key benefits of it is the, there is like a social amplification built in meaning that I think everyone who enters a giveaway automatically has that book added to their, want to read shelf, which then creates a story in the newsfeeds for all their friends and followers. So that's pretty neat. You know, that, that way it's sort of that amplifies the word of mouth basic.

Autumn (25m 9s):
Yes, exactly. It is. And that's what, I don't know if, if most people realize like that's how good reading works. It took me a while to figure out because good reads has a couple of different areas. It has the forum area, the groups. So you can go into groups and forums and get to meet people and chat. There's like an archaic version of Facebook. If people are not used to forums, I they're not picture related enough for me. And I think that's why I don't like them. They're all textual and I'll go, my husband loves them and I just find them appalling. So I'm just not a good on forums, but I should spend more time there. But then they have a side that is like sorta like Facebook newsfeed, where it's an ongoing feed and you get to see things posted by your friends.

Autumn (25m 50s):
So the more friends you have or the more friends someone else has, you know, they, it gets shared more widely. And you would like to be just like Facebook. You would like to have your feed, something about your book, show up a couple of times, maybe a day. So all of the things I'm going to suggest are basically ways of getting your book, something you're sharing to show up, just so that people see it. But obviously the number one goal is to get basically as many friends as you can. And the best way you can do that, as you can either go friend, everyone who say likes a book that you like, which is probably a perfectly way of doing it. Cause you want to stick into your genre. You want to, you know, keep people who, you know, go everyone who reviews your book, ask them to be your friend.

Autumn (26m 34s):
You can do things like that. Or obviously you can share with your newsletter, your list on social media, other platforms. That's why you go into Twitter and you'll see someone say, Hey, I'm a good reads author. Find me here. That's because they want people to follow them. And so if they're following you on Twitter, you want to get them over to good reads as well. You're going to have to bring people into the platform, even though it already has a hundred million readers, you know, you have to find them and connect with them. It's a lot of networking. But to do that, that gets the amplification that you just mentioned. You want to spread your message to everyone's newsfeed on good reads.

Jesper (27m 11s):
And that's where I'm getting slightly nervous here, right? Because you're not in terms of having to bring people in. And I understand that all that, but building a reader list, so to speak on somebody else's real estate, that's like the number one thing we talked about in the self-publish sex success course that you should not do. You know, you have to get them onto some email list, meaning that you own the list of readers and they're not built on a good reads or the same thing applies to Facebook groups. There was people who build up a huge Facebook group and that's the only place that they can connect with those readers. And what happens to data at Facebook decides that, well, maybe now we're going to charge you to be able to post our stuff in your own group.

Jesper (27m 57s):
Otherwise we're only going to show it to 10% of them or whatever, you know, you never know what's going to happen. And that's why at least in the self publishing costs that we always say, you have to get people onto your email list. That's the only way you can control your own customer list. And that was why I was asking before, can we get them out of so, okay, let's say we get them into good reads then, but how do we get them out of there and onto our email list?

Autumn (28m 25s):
Well, we will, there's a few places where we can look at doing that besides obviously, you know, by getting them to shelve and buy your books. Even if you disappear off of good reads, for some reason, the fact that they have your books and hopefully in all your books, they have links to where else they can find you. So that is one important thing. But yeah, this is definitely using another platform to build. Hopefully you want to pull them into your own list, but I do think occasionally with something that it is book dedicated and reader dedicated. It's not bad to have a presence here because these are readers. These are active, hungry readers. These are people who really love books.

Autumn (29m 6s):
And if you're going to spend some time, you know, any time, this is a place to be better than Facebook, better than anywhere else. This is definitely an audience you should look at because there's a lot of people who love books and will be active on this and have been active for years and years.

Jesper (29m 26s):
Hmm. Okay. Fair enough.

Autumn (29m 29s):
I know I haven't convinced you got the wool work on it. We'll work on some of this sharing and I'll see if we can get some stuff that's over, you know, how you can move them into your newsreader list, how you can get them off of that. I mean, I have to admit, I had a following on what, what Pat and I haven't been back there for ages, but it is interesting to see like where you can build up reader relationships and which are the ones that are worth keeping or which are the ones that are going to go and then buy your books. And I will say on good reads, these are the ones that are going to go buy your books. These are ones you want to make friends with.

Jesper (30m 3s):
Interesting. Why the ads never worked very well then, or maybe it was more to do with how the ads were served and stuff rather than the actual audio

Autumn (30m 11s):
You were really, you could only ever use your book cover, which kind of makes sense. I mean, it's your book cover? And the copy was very limited. And I think where they show up the website, just being as old styles as it is, they just weren't being served well. No. Okay. I would say, I think Amazon has too many ads, but Oh my goodness. They're not going to slow those down anytime. So I think they're going to add more, to be honest, especially now that I do have a Kindle and you see how they, the ads come up on your Kindle and it's something that the Regenera can I at least choose which books are going to show me anyway. So let's get into choosing that, but yes, exactly.

Jesper (30m 56s):
But I can get a lot of weird ones on my Kindle as well. It's like, I don't know why you advertising this to me. I'm never going to buy it

Autumn (31m 2s):
Exactly. Not the right audience. Right. So sort of I mentioned the forums. So sort of going onto the forums and being the troll that, you know, every time someone says, I want a book recommendation and you're just sharing your own book, which I don't recommend. Don't do that. This is not, we're going to just skip the forums. As I mentioned, that is not my forte, but you can go and join the forums and you should be there as a participant, as a reader. And also, you know, occasionally maybe once every 1 million posts mentioned, you're a writer to get people over to your side. But once I told her, that's probably not that bad.

Autumn (31m 43s):
It seems like it, like, they never want to hear that you're a writer in these groups, but you should go and be active as a reader. And that's fine, but we're here to talk about how you can help your author platform. So let's look at that and we'll go through some really quick ones that are really easy and well, these are ones you most people should know about, but if you start an author profile, you actually go and claim it. If you've already published in Amazon, you have an author profile over in good reads. And so what you do is actually claim it. You don't create it. It's kind of, it's different that way. It's already there. It's already there. You, if you have, you probably already have books that are not only there under your author profile, but have reviews.

Autumn (32m 28s):
People have already been doing this for you. So it's a matter of going in there saying, Hey, that's mine and setting up your profile and adding your pictures and doing things like that. And you can link your blog if have a blog outside of good reads, you can link it. So you can post they're very similar to your Amazon author profile.

Jesper (32m 45s):
Yeah. Well, I was just about to say, why don't they just, I mean, it's all owned by Amazon. They should just pull it from the author central on Amazon. That then done. I mean,

Autumn (32m 55s):
Yeah, you, we won't talk about why they haven't done this stuff, but yeah, that would make things a little bit easier. Okay.

Jesper (33m 1s):
Well, what if I wanted to talk about that?

Autumn (33m 4s):
Do we want to give tips or do we want to complain about Goodreads.

Jesper (33m 7s):
Okay. Let's give tips then.

Autumn (33m 8s):
Okay. One of the things I think is pretty cool though, is you can actually upload videos. These will show up under your author profile so that when readers go and like, look at you as an author, which is a lot easier to do than on Amazon. You know, it's something you actually tend to go to people's author profile a lot more than the book profiles, so you can upload videos. So if you have a book trailers, if you have videos of you reading, if you have audio books and you've made some cool Clippy things, I have shown some to you. I love doing those. So if you do some stuff like that, this is a great place to go ahead and post them. And then they show up on your author profile. They have a nice little, I mean, nice for good reads.

Autumn (33m 49s):
Okay, nice for the 1980s little spot that they sit and they can show up and you can go share them. Another really kind of thing. As you're setting up your author profile, you can actually add a spot for favorite quotes. And so I know most people think of like, you know, life savings. Like one of my favorite ones is when life, when all is said and done, there's more said than done. Well, that's a great quote, but it has nothing to do with my books. What you want to do is on your author profile, share some of your favorite quotes from your own book and have them up there as your favorite quotes. And obviously say the book it's from it kind of will check people's interest.

Autumn (34m 31s):
If they see something they think is pretty cool as well. And so there's another one you can do is you can join groups, which I've mentioned with the forum. So it's just like Facebook and they get to know you as an author, but you can also create your own fan group. So if you wanted to create your own group dedicated to, you know, maybe a genre, maybe a certain type of book, or just simply your own books, you can create something like that there. And that is where I think you can really work on bringing authors or readers over to your profile because you have a lot more control. The forums have usually one or two threads that are, you know, the ones that people are introduction.

Autumn (35m 16s):
And that's where you can say, Hey, dream, join my newsletter list to get a free book or get a free book here. So this is where I think you can really get into the control and directing people to say, Hey, I have this freebie. If you sign up here, you can get people over into your newsletter. And that's one I think is an important one, but of course you need to get people over good reads and then over enjoining to your fan group. But the nice thing is the groups that you've created as well as the groups that you're a member of show up on your author profile. So it's not like it's hidden. It's, it's very clearly posted that says, Hey, there's this fan group for my books go here.

Autumn (35m 56s):
And plus you can post it on your blog. And every time, the nice thing about good reads is every time you touch something on there, you share something, it shows up in the newsfeed. So you need to do like, you know, go in once or twice a day and update something, update a book you're reviewing just one little, one little thing as much as you would do do and do a tweet of course, with good reads. I don't think there's any scheduling platforms. It's like, HootSweet, I'm trying to think there's nothing where you can go and push a post through. So you actually have to go to the good reads platform and type in physical letters and share things by being there physically in person.

Jesper (36m 38s):
But what if I only want to run? I don't want several, you know, fan groups or where, whatever we want to call it or read a group. So I don't want that. I just want one. And for example, in our case, it is on Facebook. We have that group. So what then, so in order to leverage the people who are on good reads, so do you then have to create a group and have it here, or can you create a group and just point them somewhere else or something?

Autumn (37m 8s):
I think it would have to have something active on good reads, otherwise people forums and stuff. You see things float to the top that are active and people are asking questions. And so if no one is actually in it, it's just going to drop to the bottom to the abyss and will not be shown. So you would actually have to have people in here and posting questions, but then you're all

Jesper (37m 30s):
Of a sudden running two different groups

Autumn (37m 32s):
There is. And then, so it's a choice of where is the best place to be hosting, hosting your readers? You know, is it Facebook or is it good? Reads? Yeah, indeed. Okay. And so, and I've mentioned, you know, reading books. So being an active reader, if you read books, you should do your good reads reviews should add them to your own shelves. All of those touches, like I said, they show up in your timeline. And so that way people will see them. They'll see who you are. They'll see that, Hey, I like that book too. They might come and check you out, but let's get into the more interesting things that most people I don't think realize are available on good reads. And one of my favorite is that you, most people go in, they claim their book from Amazon.

Autumn (38m 18s):
That is one thing that does feed through. So if you publish a book on Amazon, it feeds through to your good reads profile. Was you doing anything? That's you just go and say, yep, that's mine. Yep. We're good. But you don't have to do it that way. You can, even if you don't have a pre-order, you can, as long as you have a blurb, something you're got and maybe a coming soon image, you can actually go ahead and create your book in good reads with like a coming soon image. And then you can use that to post updates on the book, using a general update option. That's under your author profile, or you can post it as if you're reading up reading the book or review update.

Autumn (38m 58s):
So all those things will make it show up and they'll have this coming soon image, and then it'll get people to go. And like, they can go ahead and shelve it. So they know when the book does become live, it's actually going to show up on their shelf. So that's a great way for they'll see all the updates. And of course there's some, there is a small problem with is if you're not good with computers or if you're good with computers like me, but you destroy them. When you touch them, you break them. You there's some backend things like once the book is live, you have to have the addition. You know, you want the pretty cover, the one of the proper edition. And that is stuff that every author is perfectly capable of doing, but you have to know where to go to do this.

Autumn (39m 41s):
And again, this is a 1980 style website, so it's not the most intuitive, but once you figure it out, you can do that because I know I've had some book cover changes, and you got to change, which edition is the one that readers will see. And sometimes you have to combine additions and it's some backend stuff it's not exciting. It's only if you like being a librarian is fun, but it is fun. It is possible. And it is a neat way of saying, Hey, I have these books coming up. They are here. They're splashy. They'll show up. It's it is nice way of promoting a book that's coming up.

Jesper (40m 18s):
Yeah, for sure. And I was also thinking, well, the stuff you said before about, you know, adding some sort of updates on a regular basis, I think, and if I'm incorrect here and correct me, but I think what you can do is I think you can link. I don't know how to do it, but I think you can link between your Kindle and your good reads author profile. And then if you are making highlights or notes on your Kindle, as you're reading a book, it will pop up on good reads as updates.

Jesper (40m 60s):
Is that right?

Autumn (41m 1s):
That is right. That is my favorite feature. And I'll get to in just a second. I have like two other ones I want to get to. But yeah, that is, that is one of my favorite things. And I can't even put my finger on why, but

Jesper (41m 14s):
That helps a bit in terms of you having to go down, post something, then, you know, if you're just reading and highlighting something you like, and that's automatically a post right data. So that's nice.

Autumn (41m 23s):
It is nice. And it's, there's a few cool features with that as well. And that's called Kindle notes and highlights. So, Whoa. Yeah. But speaking of that, so part of what you should do when all your books make sure your Amazon ASN number are in the book information, because by doing that, that opens up a feature that allows people to look inside just like they can do on Amazon. So that's a good way of getting readers to be able to open it up. And it's a quick little change that a lot of people don't even realize that you have to go and make sure the ASN number is there. It sometimes doesn't come through automatically or it's on the wrong edition. You need to go and check these things out and it works great.

Autumn (42m 7s):
And so before we get to my favorite one, there's also, there's something called the, ask the author questions. And these are a lot of fun too, because I have gotten readers who have read my books and then they go in and they ask questions and it's right there under your author profile and heavily good reads. It does give you a few generic ones that you can answer. And plus you can put in a prompt. So if you have a book you're coming out with, that was just released, you can say, Hey, ask me questions about my new release, blah, blah, blah. So you can put that in there. So it'll help inspire people to ask questions, answering the questions, makes them show up in the newsfeed, which is very useful.

Autumn (42m 48s):
And also it shows up permanently under your author profile. So, so people go into your author profile and they can see other questions that you've been asked and that you do answer them that you're an active author on good reads. So that's, I always love it when I see a new question in there from someone, and then I feel bad if it's been a couple months or something, because I'm on a good read slope. And I'm like, so sorry, but it is, it is great. And yeah, it's also fun. It's one of those things where you try to get your newsletters, you know, anyone to go and ask you a questions because it does give you an excuse to show up on timelines and it gives you something to talk about. And plus it's always fun to find out someone has questions about your books.

Jesper (43m 28s):
Hmm. I agree.

Autumn (43m 30s):
So Kindle notes and highlights. That's I guess that I don't know why this is my favorite, but so this is one of those things, like you've mentioned, if you're reading in your Kindle and you come across a section and you see where someone's highlighted something, that is actually something that becomes a really cool feature specifically on good reads. So if you click on it, you know, you'll often see comments we'll open up as well. Well, as an author, if you write the comments, they will show up on top. So I think that's actually kind of a cool feature. So as an author, you can go in and they say the most powerful and impactful. One is the first one you do in a book. And obviously the last one you write in a book, but you know, depending on how long your book is, you don't want to do dozens of these, but maybe five, 10 per book, you can go and highlight.

Autumn (44m 22s):
And you can say, what inspired you to write the scene or what this meant to you? Just anything about that setting that moment, why it's in the book and you can do a little explanation there, or just say, Hey, you know, or you could do a little teasing, hint, whatever you want to do and readers can actually comment on it. But then once you sync it with Amazon, it goes up to good reads. And there's a special page called your Kindle note and highlight page. And I will admit, it's not as easy as just thinking you actually have to go in there. And once it's sinked, you have to say, yes, please share to good reads. But again, so if you do five or six of them, you can, once you do that, you can just do one a day.

Autumn (45m 6s):
Then you don't have to do all five or six at the same time. You don't want to, you know, you want to spread this out. So you get a whole week out of this. And then, you know, people ask, they comment back on it. You know, they share it. You can have a whole conversation about it. And that's what I think is kind of, kind of a fun way. It's you get to interact with a reader directly in your book and that makes it kind of fun. Yeah. I can see that. No, you don't sound convinced at all, but it is funny. Cause I don't know why, like I said, I don't know why I like it, but I do think it's funny cause I've had a good reads.

Autumn (45m 48s):
Amazon representative actually reached out to me directly saying, Hey, you know, can you we'd love it. If you would do this on your first, your debut novel and stuff like that.

Jesper (45m 57s):
And I'm like, geez, it's not everyday. You get an email from a platform that says please, and maybe they were emailing everyone, but it made me feel special. So yeah. That's fair enough. Yeah, but I don't know. It just, I don't let's say look down upon good reads in any way. And I can definitely think that there, there's probably a lot of authors who get a lot from it. And, and I don't question data such that the only thing that why I'm hesitating and why I'm not sounding very convinced, I think is because it sounds to me like good reads in the census very much like Reddit in the sense that it's a place you need to participate as a reader there or in Reddit, you have to participate as, as one of the people in the group, you know, you not on read.

Jesper (46m 50s):
If you go, if you just start going down and promoting your own stuff, they will go crazy at you. But it, and it sounds a bit like it's the same here. You know, you have to engage as a reader and then maybe some people will start checking out your stuff. And maybe you can, you can sort of build up some POS around your books in that way. And of course there are those examples where somebody has made it onto the New York times bestseller list, as you mentioned before, but that's probably the lightning in the bottle kind of things, you know, there's very, very few who will do that. So I can, I can recognize that it is a real relationship

Autumn (47m 31s):
Slash community building tool, nothing wrong with that, as I said, but I think you just, you have to like to spend a lot of time on good reads and you cannot, at least in my mind right now, I think you can not view it as a marketing tool because it's really not. The marketing is like secondary. At least that's how I feel about it. I would think I don't disagree. But I think the difference is that even though the marketing is separate secondary, your books and buttons to buy your books are right there in front of the reader. So they're on, they're hungry for books.

Autumn (48m 13s):
So on Reddit, they might not be on there looking necessarily for books unless you're in the one that's, you know, is for books as a reader here, they, these really are people looking for new books. And I mean, we didn't even get into there's like lists. You can add your books to, and have people vote on them. There's let's Topia. There's so many different avenues of getting your books out to different people. And they're looking for them actively on this website. And that's why I think unlike Facebook, unlike a lot of other places, if I was going to tell one author who like what social media platform should I start on? I would probably say, do, do spend time on good reads.

Autumn (48m 54s):
It really can make a difference. You can connect with actual readers. And often these are serial readers. These are hungry readers who will read, you know, 12, 20, 30, 50 books in a year easily. They, they have reader challenges annually on how many books you can read. So this is, this is the population you want to be hungry for your book. So I would leave it at that. If you're gonna start out as an author and you want, you don't know what social media platform to start at, try this one, see if you can make a difference because this one could actually really help you. Okay. Show. Yeah.

Autumn (49m 33s):
Maybe some people got inspired to do a bit of good reach. Yeah. So she will leave it at that. Let's leave it at that. Okay. So next Monday, I should have a very interesting interview for you where we are going to share some inputs on how to get a traditional publishing deal.

Narrator (49m 54s):
If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

 

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 111 – Seven Steps to Writing a Novel

Do you get lost in the middle of writing your novel ... or just lost when writing, wondering what should come next?

Discover seven steps that will give each part of your novel a purpose, link the plot to your character's arc, and get you writing with a direction. We go over each step, give you a chapter estimate for each, and talk about how this technique has changed our writing.

For the Youtube video we mention in the podcast that has some visuals on the Seven Steps, check out https://youtu.be/DpIbF9r9fAk.

Check out the new reader-oriented Facebook group we mention in the episode at https://www.facebook.com/groups/immersivefantasyfans

And check out our book Plot Development: A Method of Outlining Fiction for more information on the Seven Steps of Story Structure and how it links to character arcs.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt

Autumn (30s):
Hello? I'm Jesper and I am Autumn

Jesper (33s):
This is Episode 111 have The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast and I always like these episodes on the craft of writing and that's what we are going to talk about today. It's all about the seven steps of story structure. I am looking forward to this one. Actually, I have to confess, we have a seven steps of the story structured. Tee-shirt that I designed and I was in the end of the other day. And I was like, Oh, hovering over the button. I want to buy my self. Well, well maybe for my birthday, I've got to want to get a nice So. I haven't gotten it yet, but I, and so getting a new one for myself.

Autumn (1m 10s):
Yeah, there, there was actually quite a lot of nice things, both tee-shirts and there was also from Zazzle, you know, there are fun. I definitely needed a smaller, I need as little assortment going on, but I mean, it's stuff that I did, so I had to get an apartment, but I haven't yet I have my traveling life. Tee shirt would be a good one, I think.

Jesper (1m 33s):
Yeah, it's true. You can find it on a Am Writing Fantasy dot come by the way, if anybody is interested, but yeah, there was a whole assortment have all kinds of stuff where you can get with a nice Writing a branded Well whatever you would like to have keeps it.

Autumn (1m 51s):
Maybe not. But yeah, so I'm looking forward to this, but I know first of all, of that, you have had a terrible week and that shouldn't be laughing, but it was just so you do it. If you don't laugh, sometimes you will just end up as a little puddle on the floor crying, but I feel so cursed. I actually just wrote my niece and said that Oh because I am writing that story of the tainted Fe and I have a dark Fay, and I know I just, I don't know how its going to happen if that will work in, into the novels on I'm about to release before I release them. But I just have this scene where he is cursed and everything he touches starts to like go round wrong.

Autumn (2m 36s):
Like you can almost feel like you're in a mousetrap and you realize suddenly you are in a mouse trap it, or you could feel the strain that out. So that's something that you're going to touch is going to explode. The whole thing is going to go like crap. And you just have to sit there and be like, why am I cursed? What did I do? How do I get out of this? That is my life right now. So it's going to become a great scene in my story. But right now only go, I feel like I can forget it. I feel like I'm going to break something much worse than I've already broken so many things this week. Like my laptop. Yeah. So the deepest,

Jesper (3m 13s):
Just a breakdown. It's like my worst nightmare. I mean, Jesus, it's horrible. It, it has been on your laptop.

Autumn (3m 22s):
Yeah, it is its my life. I mean their was that moment, like literally And so the listeners haven't been a part of the conversation in the email chain between us. I literally was, I was working, I had my book file open. I was working on a cover. So for my next release, so I had Photoshop open. I had my editing notes open and I just went to unplug the power cable and the whole screen went black just mm. And it was that no, no, no, no, no. I mean the three things that you would not want to lose, not to have open on your computer when it dies.

Autumn (4m 3s):
It was like, no, no, but this is not my first computer death its so I, and I've definitely learned over the years. I, the first time something ever happened, we have talked about it before. I actually lost 10 chapters when I reached it right on my iPad. Yeah. And so the next time when I lost my Mac air, when we were traveling and living a vagabond lifestyle that hurt, but I only lost three days of data. Cause I was a really good at backing things up with this time, you know what? I get an eye or use iCloud. I new after that moment of Holy, you know, when I'm trying to give it to turn on and I'm sitting there with my head in my hands, leaning over it going, what have I not tried?

Autumn (4m 48s):
What else can I do? I am not going to panic. What else can I do? And I thought, you know, the files are fine. I keep all my book files are automatically stored. They don't even touch my hard drive. They are stored in Dropbox. Backup files are stored elsewhere. I do snapshots on Scrivener. And then what I do a really big updates, like finish a novel or finishing editing session. I would put the main file on an external drive. I have my book files everywhere. And so if everyone, anyone, if I refer to become famous in JK Rowling's I am screwed because I have to so many places I've got to protect my files, but I do it. So that the moments where you've realized that your entire everything you we're just working on is gone.

Autumn (5m 31s):
You can go that sucks. I might have lost five minutes of data. And it was just like I said, and what's the worst part? Is it literally this week, even just, I am currently borrowing my husband's laptop. He has been my Knight in shining armor, keeping me from going absolutely crazy and letting me borrow his Mac. And so kicking him off into some Old Dell lets you know, relegate it to the back corner, usually in the house. But it's, I've touched so many things setting up his I've just been like updating my Photoshop brushes and that I lose wifi connectivity. Just talking to you. I went to do something and find, or just shut down on me for no reason.

Autumn (6m 13s):
I was just making a folder and it disappears eye. We have a little water pump that runs battery. I went to use that the other day and I touched it and it just died. And my husband touches it. It works fine. I'm like, come on. This is not even funny. I feel it.

Jesper (6m 29s):
Do you want this, a recording session here? And your microphone would not work?

Autumn (6m 36s):
Oh my God. I literally feel cursed and I don't know what I did, but I will definitely, definitely feel like, you know, what are the Fae in my story that they are just totally cursed. And my one character always feels like he was cursed and I feel like I am just somehow became him and its socks. Well, yeah.

Jesper (7m 3s):
That's comma for you because now you can try to live the life of one of your characters and feel what is like all the shit you put them through it.

Autumn (7m 10s):
Yeah. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. I'm gonna, I need to make a, men's put out some honey into a dish outside or something. I don't know. But yeah, so we're rolling.

Jesper (7m 21s):
Yeah. Where you are really, really nice to them and everything goes smoothly for chapter two. It would have been, maybe they will lift the curse. Maybe it's the characters. Yeah.

Autumn (7m 29s):
Yeah. It could be. I will try that because that's my wits say they are a Fe it, it would be my luck to have pissed off the Faye. So anyway. Yeah. How has your life or you can be this bad. No, not yet.

Jesper (7m 43s):
No, not that bad or even exciting as, as, as it is on your end. But I, I think given what you've been through, I, I think I, I can live with that. I can live with a bit of boringness on that. That's okay. Yeah. No, it's, it's very similar. I guess we're still a partial lockdown here and there. I don't want to talk more about that. So, but the good news is that the way I'm approaching the final few chapters of our first short story and the in Alicia, I'm in the world of Alicia. So that would be,

Autumn (8m 13s):
I guess that is so cool. And I was so on my way to catch up to you this weekend, but you know, I'll get there this week. I hope that other disasters, but you know, it's funny because as a long time ago, I read into a story that there was a curse and I believe it's a tribe somewhere on this planet, but the curse is literally may your life be extraordinary because if it is, if you are with the one chosen by the, God's just like, if you're chosen by a character, you know, in the Novel, if you were one of the heroes, your life sucks. So I am so happy you have had a normal life. So one of us has to do it, even though we also got Facebook

Jesper (8m 56s):
Groups started for our readers four, the world of Elysium, we will add a link in the show notes to that group or just in case anybody's listening on. Interesting, interested in that. But the reason why, or why I mentioned that is more to say that it's quite fun. You know, when, when, when you create the something new like this and this, a Facebook group is knew and there's just so few people in there are very, very little engagement. It is like a cold new world. And I think it's fun to sometimes you remind yourself on what it was like also when you first started out and you had no audience, you know, it's cathartic in some ways, isn't it?

Jesper (9m 37s):
It, it is. Except I feel like I might have touched that's what happened to him. So I don't know why it's not my fault. I know it's not now, but I think, I think it's quite nice and healthy as well for once in a while too, because you know, we all have the Am Writing Fantasy Facebook group and that's the one that has to do. And so many people are also joining us every single day. There is a new bits of people joining. There's a lot of awesome posts, a lot of great stuff that people are posting in helping each other with and so on. And then you'd go into the crickets and all we know it's a, it's a, it's quite fun.

Jesper (10m 22s):
But of course, I mean over time we will try to build that one up. So that's going to be a very engaging and fun as well. But I just, I don't know. I just thought about that today and I thought it was quite funny.

Narrator (10m 36s):
Oh, a week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast

Jesper (10m 41s):
So before you were a computer crass, Autumn you actually manage to finish up two logos for Elysium? I did, which was exciting and yeah, so it was about ready to work on other things for our listeners I'm have some maps, but it was, and I did more than we did. We've gone through how many drafts of logos, where we found two that we liked. So that was exciting. Yeah, indeed. And so we, we are actually going to post them to our reader list, email list and ask them to vote for the one that they liked the most, because that's really the reason why I mentioned that. If there's more to say that, I think the stuff like this, it is it's good to make a reminder for yourself to 'em to get some input from other people.

Jesper (11m 24s):
'cause the authors themselves are not always the best judge's on which in this case you it's a logo. We could also be a book cover or something like that. But we are not always the best just because of which one is the best one. So yeah. Just leverage your email list for that kind of stuff. Absolutely. I mean, and plus it gives the readers, like it makes it, your readers feel like they are important. They get to be a part of the decision. And yeah, this is just like, you were a focus group to ask your reader is like, Hey one, do you like,

Autumn (11m 54s):
This is, this is perfect. If they like it and they will see things that maybe you don't, because you're so worried about something more particular. And they're going to come with fresh eyes and not know the story and not know the history, but they're going to have to feel that immediate connection. Hopefully too one of them, even though I still have my favorite, but we'll see how it goes.

Jesper (12m 13s):
Yeah, yeah, indeed. We'll see how, what the votes say, but a Yeah indeed. And, and they had also of course built some anticipation a about the future Writing you are doing when you do stuff like that. So I do encourage people hear listening to a treasurer to think if there is something that you could share with you, a list, something that would, it, it doesn't have to be directly something, you know, if it doesn't have to be an extra out of the actual writing, it could be something like this, like a logo or maybe some art work or something, a bit of your setting, but something that teases a bit and builds anticipation of, of maybe the next book you're writing. You know, I think that that kind of thing is always good to do so.

Jesper (12m 53s):
Yeah. But I'm onto something else. But I also noticed How Keith post-it in the Am Writing Fantasy Facebook group a, we talked about that in a moment ago as well. So this is a lot of posts in there, but I just pick one here that the, because he, he is outlining a new series and he asked for tools or resources to help him organize his world building. And I always loved the world building questions. And then, yeah, I just think it's an incredibly useful again here, when you can ask other people for inputs and advice. So, you know, just before it was with our reader's list, but here it's asking fellow authors for their advice on a, on what they use, For taking world building notes and he got us a lot of suggestions on that.

Autumn (13m 43s):
I am sure he has. So there's been actually a few threads on there recently with tons and tons of comments, which, or it's just awesome to see so many people help each other out. So I did laugh cause there was one who is, I can't even remember the test that he had mentioned, but he was like, Hey, does anyone else ever use this sort of basically it's a reader level task. Like, are you writing at fifth grade level or are you writing for 13th grit? And I had to look that one up and I'm like, ah, that's why would I was in high school? They always said, I read it at an advanced level. It was this test. Okay. So the mystery salt from something at a high school, but yeah. You know, sometimes there's less, less comments on a post, but it was very interesting.

Autumn (14m 23s):
It made me go look it up. Oh yeah, they do. Yeah.

Jesper (14m 26s):
So that was one of the suggestions that he got on this wall. Building a post was well that a lot of people are using spreadsheets. Some are you using Google docs will and will was mentioned that we know all of that, but there were some of, you also mentioned campfire pro or I'm not aware of that one. Do you know what that is?

Autumn (14m 45s):
No, no. I haven't looked at that one. I'll have to. Definitely, because I know as I build the illicium website, we've been talking about how to make it a link to like almost an encyclopedia of our world. And I'm looking for plugins and methods of doing that. So I'll have to check out a campfire. Yeah. I don't know why,

Jesper (15m 2s):
What it is, but yeah, but maybe in some, maybe there will be inspiration for me for some listeners hear as well. If you, if you're looking for ways to organize your world building, we do have a lot more options on. Now let me say a few more options are different options in the world building course as well. Yeah. So yeah, when we open that later on in this year will let you know if you are on the email list. So you can get on to the email is from Am Writing Fantasy dot com. So we will let you know, in, in case you are interested in that.

3 (15m 35s):
Yeah. And on to today's topic. So Autumn,

Jesper (15m 40s):
Seven Steps of Story Structure

Autumn (15m 43s):
Is this what I found? The seven steps. I can't remember how or where I found it, but it totally changed in me. It was a light bulb going off on how the Writing in Story process worked. Nothing else had worked for me before, but this, I was like, Oh, okay. And so I have been a huge fan for, well, I mean, I realize the next year will be 10 years of self publishing. So considering how long it took me to write my first, my debut novel, I've been writing for over 10 a decade now. So yeah, this has totally changed in my organization, in my story Outlining so

Jesper (16m 25s):
Yeah. Before going into any of the steps and so on. Yeah.

Autumn (16m 28s):
Oh yeah. It may be a high level. Why

Jesper (16m 32s):
Or why do you think it made sense? A difference?

Autumn (16m 35s):
Oh, I think, I think a lot of people are taught in high school or even writing classes. You and I have my undergraduate in a way of writing in English and a lot of them teach the three acts process and it, to me that's way too broad. It doesn't have a progression in my mind, it's more of a static framework because in each of those three are broken down into three and it feels more to me like slots like a picket fence. Like this is just how it looks, but this is literally a Story progression. Plus not only is each step build on the next one to create a flow. Once you realize how it interlinks with the character arc so that the character more or less all of the Plot stems from the characters actions.

Autumn (17m 24s):
And so the character arc is tied to the plot in it all becomes is massive. We achieve that has a definitive flow and in an input that comes out to a totally different output. And you're like, Oh, I have a whole story. And it makes sense. It's not M is not linear so much as a lot of loops, I guess. And that's probably how my brain works.

Jesper (17m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Well, there is like a million ways of a structuring stories and then everybody can find their own way through it, I guess. But I also liked how well, how are each of the steps are getting into it's it's more granularly, its more specific. And I like that rather than, you know, a very broad, high level strokes where you don't really see any way, understand what I, what am I supposed to put into those three steps or the three oxen? And I know, I think I heard somebody, you also talked about nine arcs or something, right?

Autumn (18m 27s):
Oh yeah. And I've heard have a five act structure two in that one. I haven't, it's not as popular. I haven't seen much on it, but especially to me, the three act, so many writers get stuck, we call it the money in the middle of the machine middle. They get stuck in the second one. This one doesn't have, it has a second, but the middle it's so definitive and it breaks it down so clearly. And then it also gives you a chapter guideline, like how much should it be of the Novel so that you know, how many chapters even should be in it. It just it's like giving someone a map with clear instructions on how to go from point a to point B or Z and you know, all the stops along the way and how long each of those stops or supposed to take.

Autumn (19m 8s):
And its just like, Oh, there you go. I can get out there. I love that feeling.

Jesper (19m 13s):
Yeah. So where do, where does, where do we start?

Autumn (19m 18s):
Well, I guess we could start with the intro where that's, where you start with your Novel.

Jesper (19m 24s):
Yeah, that sounds good.

Autumn (19m 25s):
Yeah. And so the intro of the seven steps in technically there's one in there and we'll talk about that is not officially a step because that would make it eight, but this first one is the intro. So that's the introduction and it is, I like to call it the way I, the way we teach it. And the Fantasy writer's guide is that this is sort of a mini story. And everyday moment that you go in and you meet the character, you know, all of those things that people tell you, it should be starting with action. Don't do too much. Don't do info, dumb thing. All of those things, all of that happens in those first initial pages of the intro, which is, I believe it's like 10% of your entire novel one, the three chapters.

Autumn (20m 6s):
I no, for me, I, especially when I'm writing a series, the first book might be up to three chapters, but a lot of the time, you know, this is a one or two chapter and then I get to the next phase, but that's the one thing I like to get to the thing I like to get things going really quickly. But other times you like to ease it in with a couple like three chapters, have your introduction.

Jesper (20m 27s):
Yeah, no I, yeah. And I think one of the things that is really good with this is that when you think of it as a bit of a mini story, and so it just, you know, stretching a couple of chapters and that's it, but that it forces you to sort of try to build a bridge between the let's it, the day-to-day or the ordinary world that the character lives in a way to whatever is going to happen in this story. Right? So So you, you're sort of building a small bridge there between going around doing your day-to-day job, all of those versus the something, something is going to happen, then you're going to get pushed into, into the story.

Jesper (21m 8s):
But because you have a bit of length to work with you and you have some, let's not call it rules, but guidelines on, on how a 10% may be a couple of chapters long. This also forces you to get to the point. I, I think I've mentioned on a previous podcast episode that I, and I'm not going to mention names yet, but I was reading a book awhile ago where honestly, it was like, I think 15 chapters or something and very little happened other than we were following the character. And he was going about his day to day things and in the village that he lived in and out and stuff like that, it was like, yeah, OK. You had a bit of a conflict with some other boys that were teasing him and stuff, but it was like, Hmm.

Jesper (21m 52s):
Okay. But 15 chapters is just like, it's enough for you to put the book down.

Autumn (21m 59s):
Not enough for me to put the book down, assuming that they are, there are more than a page long. Yeah,

Jesper (22m 4s):
No, no, no, no. On some of them were a really long chapter as well. I only managed to read it to the end because I was doing it for some market research for free for us. So that was when I was reading it. But honestly, I mean, when you have a bit of guidelines saying, keep it short and build the bridge between now and four, what comes next year then? Yeah. You are forced to, to make it interesting. And you also can't waffle about what all kinds of other things, because then it's going to take up too much space in the, in the Novel and at least when you are not following the guideline, which of course, you know, you know, again, I don't want to call it a rule, but there is a reason why there was a guideline.

Jesper (22m 48s):
Right?

Autumn (22m 48s):
Absolutely. And especially, I mean, going with the idea of the mini story and starting with action, you know, the best way to do it is to basically have something going wrong in the characters every day. But it's a minor like it's like a normal every day, a hiccup, I think before I have used an example of like, you know, the, the, the little shepherd girl is supposed to be going to school and instead the goats have gotten out it's her fault. So she has got to go get them and that sets her off somewhere else. And that is the introduction. You get to see a little bit of our world. You get to see a little bit of things going wrong. What she supposed to be doing, where she wants to be. You get a, feel, an emotional feel as well as a physical action feel of what was going on and this character's life.

Autumn (23m 31s):
And it was a hiccup. I mean, it's to go, it's getting out of it is not do you know, the Orks rating the entire village? Its just a little problem, but it's a normal problem that the reader can relate to. Even if you've never heard of goats before you kind of get idea that you're not supposed to let them out and getting in trouble as a kid and that you are supposed to be going to school and yeah, you can get those feelings. You relate really quickly without getting worried about the, what the heck is going on and who is this person or those little questions. Yeah.

Jesper (24m 3s):
The other part is as well that it gives you the possibility to build that likeness for the main character. You, if you can show them in a small, like everyday situation where they are doing something nice for somebody, are they helping somebody then maybe the, you know, taking care of an animal or just something that will stop building that relationship with the reader on all of that like ability towards the readers or the reader feels like, aah, like this person, this was a nice person, right. That

Autumn (24m 34s):
Connection, that emotional

Jesper (24m 36s):
Connection and built that right from the beginning. That's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Autumn (24m 40s):
So all of that leads into the inciting incident, which is when you are really starting to introduce the bigger Plot of the Novel. Now this one is, this is quick, this is one chapter. It happens and it's boom. And it is when you flip the character's world completely upside down. And that's why it's so much fun. And its really, it kind of starts off the whole story. Plot the big Plot and this is where you have introduced the reader. So they feel familiar with the character and this thing happens and they were like, Oh my gosh, how's this, how's this character that I've started caring about going to get through this. And so it's so much fun to write.

Jesper (25m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. There's not much to sell, to say I'm in the inciting incident is the inciting incident.

Autumn (25m 28s):
Right, right. It is. And I think that's a good way of looking at it is like, if you have that many Story, this is the outcome of them in the story and whatever that outcome is, it's not what the character expects. It is like, it is the opposite. So you go to go find your goats and you know, either the whole village is swept up into an armed raid while you're gone or she gets abducted to a fairy world. Something happens. It is not the normal everyday anymore.

Jesper (25m 59s):
Yeah. Yeah. And you get to see the, that there are bigger things that play out.

Autumn (26m 4s):
Yeah. I guess that's a good way to put it. Absolutely.

Jesper (26m 9s):
So where do we go in step three?

Autumn (26m 11s):
Oh this is always it's. So now we're starting to tactically get into the middle of that in the three X structure is where I would always get lost. So this is the next phase is the reaction phase, which is like the name of it. This is where the character reacts to what just happened. And it's so easy to mentally when you usually get to the middle and you're like, I don't know what's going to happen. I need to throw in some hurdles. Right? I have to throw in some laws and I don't know why. Well, this tells you, okay, these, this sec next section, which Oh, I'm trying to think about 20%, maybe 30 to 30% of the Novel it's usually like five to seven chapters, depending on how long you draw it out.

Autumn (26m 55s):
I think our smaller reaction phase is better than a longer one because this is literally the character reacting to the world being thrown upside down. So there going to be probably overreacting. They're not going to survive the, unless they have health or luck. And there's only so much time. You can draw that out where your a main character is flailing on the point of failure before the coup, before the reader is like, Oh, Please get a clue just to get a clue. So this one is, it is, yeah, I like this one on the shorter side personally, but that's how I write. You can make this one as long as the next, next phase.

Autumn (27m 35s):
So in two phases from now

Jesper (27m 38s):
And the character incompetent also shows you here, right? So you can show how the character is really not equipped to deal with this situation at all. And probably going to fail, ah, and stumble through that through things. And then that's also a, well, we can talk a bit about character arc a bit later here, but, but that's where you can start showing the Well the beginnings of the characters, meaning that the, this is where the character is feeling. And then later on, when you start seeing that the character succeeding than you can start seeing the chains there, and then you can see that the character has gained new skills and new knowledge is getting better or stronger or whatever it is that the user story is about.

Jesper (28m 21s):
So it, it seats very well in character arcs with the story structure in itself.

Autumn (28m 27s):
It does. I mean, this is basically the character, once things to revert to the normal every day, even if they thought they hated the normal every day, there's this longing where they realize I'm not prepared for this. This is, this is much more real than I thought it was. And so there, there are stumbling around and that is the perfect be the basis for a character to grow to either one, a return to what things were to have the wrong view of the world, to just have everything show that they are a novice and a newbie and not who they thought they were or even thought they could be. And yet that's to be getting out of character arc. Right?

Jesper (29m 5s):
Yeah, indeed. And this is also where they was likely will sort of try to hang on to the Well the Lite that they are telling themselves about the world that you know, that they will, they'll try desperately to hang onto the understanding of the world and say, you know, that this is how it's supposed to work and I'll continue down this road of how its supposed to be. Even though I'm banging my head against the wall all the time, but I'm still gonna try because I'm convinced that this is the way things are. And, and then again, later on when the, with the character talk to you later on, once they start realizing that maybe there is something with myself, I need to as well to be able to succeed again, then you are starting to show you, how would you change in the person?

Jesper (29m 46s):
And then it becomes a Well the character becomes alive. It becomes more than a cardboard, a cardboard, a cop out that the guy that is a whole living on the page. I mean, it's, it's, three-dimensionally all of a sudden.

Autumn (30m 0s):
Absolutely. Yes. I think that is a great way of putting it that this is it, it makes the world so much and the arcs in the story, it was just really becomes an issue,

Jesper (30m 10s):
Deeper topic. Yeah. And then we move on to what step four now,

Autumn (30m 17s):
Step for us. So this is one of my favorite it's often called dark Knight of the soul or the new infos phase. I, I loved the idea of the dark Knight of the soul of this is like the treachery, you know, it just sounds cool. And it was just like, ah, this is like, you know, you you've failed so badly in the reaction phase, you have held to that deep believe, that wrong view of the world. So strongly that you've caused like the death of your best friend, that someone is captured dead and you have that moment of waking up or staying up all night, going, Holy,

Jesper (30m 52s):
The crap I screwed up. Yeah.

Autumn (30m 56s):
I have to admit though, when I do my writing, if I go back and look at all of the ones, I tend to do a new info, which is a new, a new piece of the puzzle, new information clicks into place and you send, they go, Oh crap. That's what I needed to be doing. And this is the truth that I didn't realize before. So you can do it depends on if you're into the dark, FANTASY a dark story or a more of a, Novel a noble bright, which I tend to write Nobel Brite by myself. So I tend to have more than that. Oh, this is where I'm supposed to be going more than I have that. Oh, you just died. I'm so sorry.

Jesper (31m 29s):
Yeah. Sorry. The evilness always comes out.

Autumn (31m 37s):
It does. You know, I have is everyone once in a while, you're at a really dark one, but you know, it's usually not there, but, and this is another one that is also just 1% of the Novel one chapter. You just have one moment or this happens, you don't draw it out too long. You make it emotionally impactful, whether it is Lite and a new info or dark and death and despair. And just that horrible sleepless night of realizing you are a total screw up when you've because a serious thing to happen. One of those to you just get through it and move on. It's sort of, it is in a way it's a long haul. It's a reaction as well to something that just happened.

Autumn (32m 17s):
So its not an exciting chapter, but it's an emotional impact. And this is the second turning point of the Novel when the inciting incident 20 all of the turning points or just one chapter, the inciting incident, one chapter first turning point. This is the second turning 0.1 chapter dark night of the soul. Whether it be,

Jesper (32m 36s):
Yeah, it's an exciting chapter. It's just not actually now I think what it is. Yeah,

Autumn (32m 40s):
I think so. I mean it's, it's Yeah there is no, usually no battle scenes, dooring it? Unless it's all kind of gets conglomerated in there, but it is definitely just an incredibly impactful chapter. Yeah.

Jesper (32m 55s):
Okay. And after that we move into step five.

Autumn (32m 58s):
So at five. So now this is the other side of the coin from the reaction phase, which was the character flailing about and screwing up in nearly dying. If it wasn't for luck and friends, we're in the planning phase now. So this is the characters that are coming out of that dark night of the soul are coming out of the new info phase, going, this is what I need to do and I'm going to make this plan. I am going to get this person to help me. I'm gonna go get this talisman. I am going to go and do something because they are seeing the bigger picture in the world. That's not just about them. You know, this is where their working with the character arc, where they're going from. I have this false beliefs to going, Oh this is the real problems in the world.

Autumn (33m 39s):
And it's not about me going back to what I want, but is about me solving this problem for everyone who had the same problem I did. And it's kind of, it's so dynamic again, this is the middle where so many authors get lost. And suddenly you're saying, you know, 20 to 30% of your Novel five to seven chapters, the planning phase, you know, you can make it a little bit longer if your reaction phase is really short, but this is where things are starting to click. And the tension starting to build this is where the villain is starting to take notice directly out of the hero. And so things, every single hurdle that they come up against is getting bigger and bigger. And now the main character is starting to when some on his own or her own starting to make progress, which is making them much more of a threat.

Autumn (34m 24s):
So the cycle, the tension starts really ratcheting down and this was such a fun phase to right? Yeah.

Jesper (34m 32s):
Then all of a sudden in the middle doesn't sound boring anymore. Now it's just a big thing. And you also were sort of at the point of no return at this point, you know, the character is starting to understand that, okay. I just, I can't just ignore this stuff and I can't just go back to where I was and, and take care of the goats anymore. I have to do something to eat, you know, whatever. And we'll be in Epic Fantasy it's often to do with saving the world and stuff like that, but it could be all kinds of stuff.

Autumn (35m 3s):
Absolutely. Yeah. This is why I like that. At the point of no return. At this point, they have kind of realized they are moving towards a definitive, what will be the climax. They are realizing that they have a bigger problem to solve and maybe every time they try to find it, they are finding more roadblocks, whatever it is to make the hurdles make sense in your world where a lot of the reaction phase hurdles can often be like environmental. Like, you know, they are not prepared for the cold, the wet, the rain, the distance, the food, something like that. This is getting much more specific where they are going after people and henchmen and drag it and or whatever they're doing. These are the really kind of bigger and bigger and bigger and battles. Hm.

Jesper (35m 41s):
Yeah. I like, you're just mentioning dragons.

Autumn (35m 43s):
So I had to slip that in.

Jesper (35m 48s):
Okay. But then we get to step number six.

Autumn (35m 51s):
Yeah we do. And this is where I do. 'em maybe it's 5.5. So its not really faze, but there is something called the discission and that is the bridge between the planning phase and the climax. And so this is in its own way is as the climate is as big as the whole Novel is leading up to this. But the decision is a moment where the character realizes maybe I'm scared. I didn't ever expect to get here. It's kind of a looking back at everything they've done looking at it. What's at stake. You know, there are going from carrying about, you know, fighting three loss goats to trying to save the world. And so you kind of make sense of that.

Autumn (36m 31s):
You have that moment of a deep breath have I might die, but this is worth it. I am doing this. I am going to go fight this sucker. And they made that decision and that is really important. It's sometimes only a paragraph, but at that moment is a really good moment because it kind of let's the reader to take a breath and also understand how big and important this is. And then we move into the climax, which is again a 20 to 30% of the Novel. This is the five to seven to 10 chapters. This is the big to do where everything happens, the battle, the fill-in and the hero has to meet.

Autumn (37m 12s):
They have to hit head to head and how that happens is in what's going to happen. That's all the climax. Right?

Jesper (37m 21s):
And it's often, you know, the, the, the intro pot. Oh no, no, no. Maybe not step one because I think a lot of people fail there as well in terms of understanding, building that little ministry or in the beginning. But it, at least if we check it from the inciting incident part, that part people usually do not struggle with. Yeah. And also here with the climax. In most cases, people do not struggle with that either, but it's a, it's a step in between that are difficult most of the time. So I think when we are talking about the climax in most people or most writers, even inexperienced ones will feel fairly okay with this part because this is, this is probably most likely their stuff you had in mind already when you decided the story and the first place that you want it to ride.

Jesper (38m 5s):
A lot of the times you have a feeling of from the beginning were you will want things to end up and how it's going to be this massive battle with all the dragons and, and the goats and a roasting. Right?

Autumn (38m 19s):
Yeah. And the dragons of the goat's are going to be an interesting one to two against each other. I hope they are on the same tight you need to renew. No. And so yeah, I agree. I think most people have an idea that the climax, I think the biggest word of advice is that you have to make sure that everything that happened before the climax makes it worthwhile. So you can have the, I was a show and now I'm trying to remember of course, because my brain is so fried, but she was a succubus and it was a really good story and character art and Magic and Fay. But the battle scenes, the climax of the series of the season was always crop.

Autumn (39m 0s):
They had like this Huntress who was so, you know, I had been alive for a a thousand years and he had fought all these battles that she died by like missing the bad guy with one sword stroke. I was like, come on, literally my nephew could write a better climate. So make this one is important. Everything that came before, it should make sense. And it, the climax has to over top them all. It has to be this level of tension that, you know, readers are gasping and they can put it down before going to bed. And if you haven't gotten that, go back and rewrite it because this is an important step. This is what, you know, everyone's been waiting for us. And if you serve mushy cake, instead of this amazing, you know, baked Alaska, if people are going to know

Jesper (39m 45s):
Sure. And then we came into this to come in to the final step. Yeah.

Autumn (39m 49s):
Okay. And this is what I think would do a lot of authors do miss and mess up or just kind of skip. And that's the wrap-up and it sounds so simple, but it's an important one is important. If you're going to have a continuing series, you want to introduce the next thread, maybe even the next inciting incident at the very, very, very end, but you need to take the energy of the climax, give your readers a quick breath, give them an idea of, you know, how people are faring the love interest, wrap it up the subplots. This is the emotional ending. Often of the Story. This is the last tastes, you know, a sip of wine. This is the last tape that's going to linger in their minds, on their lips when they shut the page.

Autumn (40m 31s):
And it's either going to be making them, you know, look and stylistically foreword and put it away forever. Or is it going to get them ramped up to want to go grab the next book, whatever that emotional ending is. This is you finished that in the, wrap-up be it one chapter two to three. This is again it's, it's like a mirror image. You can almost fold the seven steps and a half and a, they mirror image of each other pretty well. That perfectly we are pretty well, but the ramp-up is like the intro. Its just a quick little story, right?

Jesper (41m 1s):
Yeah. And it's pretty cool. When you can do a bit of a cold back to the intro, a Lilly and it ties everything two together in a neat little boat there. That that's really nice, but I was actually going to maybe step into a bit of a hornet's nest here.

Autumn (41m 16s):
Ooh, that's a very brave of you and you know how my week is going. So just be warned.

Jesper (41m 23s):
Yeah, no, it was more because I know how what's a lot of people hate at the last season of game of Thrones. Right. But I just wanted to mention that actually one of the things that I found done very well, despite all the hating that goes to the, the very, very last Episode in the eye. I can't remember anymore. Its quite a while since our words, but maybe its like the last 15 minutes or 10 minutes, something like that. But that's actually where you have the wrap-up. Yes. And you get to see every single of the, one of the important characters and what's the what's going to happen to them and, and how do their life sort of continue from there?

Jesper (42m 7s):
And I think that part in itself, whether your night, like the season or not, it doesn't matter, but those 10 minutes, 15 minutes, however long that was, I can remember, but that wrap it up. They did that in the, in the end. I thought that was done very, very nicely. Yeah. It was not to cry it out. It was to the point. It just gave you the insight of what's going to happen with these characters and finish things off in a good way because the Westway you can finish it up. Well this was a TV series then, but even novels, you know, when things are just left hanging, you have no idea what happened to these people then. Yeah. That that's really not a very satisfactory ending, even though you might have had the most awesome battle just before.

Jesper (42m 49s):
But if you don't just leave everybody hanging on that. Yeah. Okay. He defeated the ma the matte necromancer and then a yeah, that was cool. Thanks by that.

Autumn (43m 1s):
That works very well. Especially if you do have any subplots that weren't tied up and you know, you see it, you always have that Rita raise your hand, but what about he had a few of the necromancer, but he never picked up the drop Juul that you know, is going to potentially blow up. And you know, you want to see those things. You wanna know the two that are going to be another book or you want to know if it's really a happily ever after they've married or are they going to, you know, have kids, even a Harry Potter, it had that little glimpse forward where he's sending his kids off to Hogwarts. Those are those little moments that you're like, Oh, we don't know that whatever happens, the world goes on, they have a future. And it kind of gives that reader of the idea that, Oh, I like that.

Autumn (43m 43s):
I like knowing that there are going to be OK. You can let that go now.

Jesper (43m 48s):
Yeah. In the end of the law of the rings for a role. So reach out to the Shire. Oh no. Maybe he doesn't know. I can't remember anymore, but the day there is a return to the to see how things are going and Frodo leaves on the Elvin boat. I can't remember if it goes to the GI first off and then leaves on Delvin boat or not. I, I can't remember. I actually, it should be honest, but ER, but anyway, you do go back to the chair and a, you do also see what happens to the Frodo afterwards, which again is a good wrap-up. It shows the life of the character, what what's going to happen next day. And it does not, well, it should not be drawn out at all. It should be a fairly short face, but you can tell a lot in a few paragraphs, even for yourself or like, like my game Thrones example from before they probably visited like 10 characters in 10 minutes or something and they, it was nice.

Jesper (44m 39s):
You don't need more. Now I think I am definitely one of the authors I always mean to do a longer wrap-up but I tend to get, even for the end of a series is like two chapters. But you were like, you said that you can do a lot for me. It's often it takes two chapters because maybe I switch point of view or, or something, but you can wrap up some stuff and if you're building to the next book, this is where you do it. You have a good little moment of, Oh thank goodness. And then someone's like, Oh, but what about that joke that everyone dropped in and you got lost in the dragons, ate it. And you're like, Oh, and then the Novel ends then of course the reader's like, okay, well what about that? Then they could get to the next one. Yeah, no doubt. All right. So I wanted to mention as well, when we are talking about, these are the seven steps of, of story structure.

Jesper (45m 25s):
If you would like to have a bit of graphics to go along with the, each of the steps that you can actually go onto the Am Writing, Fantasy a YouTube channel because it would have a video on there that was recorded. I don't know, a couple of years ago probably by now, but Autumn goes through to seven steps there as well. And there was a bit of graphics on the screen screen on their screen, on this screen, so that it's even easier to follow. Or even if, if you need even more than that, you can also go and pick up the aisle plotting books because it's spelt on the rupture. And it explains of course in a lot more detail that we can do here exactly how to build every single one of those steps and what do you need to put into them?

Jesper (46m 9s):
So we will put a link to the plotting books in the show notes. So, you know, you can go in and check that one out if you, if you need that guidance, but, and you have a starting point video, if you want, the video is good, but it's even better. If the planning book really links in the character building and the character arc and how the character is really the one who is driving the seven steps. So definitely check that out if you have questions or is it sounded like, Hey, this is how I went to, right? Because like I said, this is, this is how I write. It makes so much sense. And I, I never fall in the middle. I usually fall in the climax because there is so much going on. If I don't add at least two chapters to every climax, I right. It would be, it would be a first time.

Jesper (46m 51s):
Yeah. So hopefully that was helpful. We try to keep it, lets say simple enough that it's easy to follow, you know, on an audio podcast like this, but there are a means to, to get more detailed both from the video, but also from the book on plodding. If, if you need that. Next Monday we will discuss how to make the most of good reads as an author. Is it useful or useful for a site for a book marketing? So tune in and find out if you like,

Narrator (47m 25s):
What did you just heard? There is a few things you can do to support the Am FANTASY PODCAST Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn in Jasper on patrion.com/ Am Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going to stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 110 – Top 10 Most USELESS Spells & Magic Systems

In this hilarious episode of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper share the most stupid magic spells, and extremely useless magic systems, they can think off. 

Listen in, have some fun, and learn about a spell animating walking tea cups, a more than deadly magic system made up by Autumn's evil mind, and lots more.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in a way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello I'm Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is Episode 110 of the Am Writing Fantasy Podcast and this is one of our alternating lists and things might go a bit crazy here today, as we talk about the worst Magic Systems or Spells that we can think of.

Autumn (50s):
Oh, I cannot wait for this one. They had so much fun coming up with this list.

Jesper (57s):
Oh yeah. I, I got a bit of inspiration as well from, from the internet, but I'll, I'll talk more about that once we get to the list, but then some I can't wait, but how are you doing? Oh my God. Well, you know, we had a bit of a snow storm recently, and so we actually have no power that goodness, the house where we're at as a generator. So that kind of, you know, B and everybody kind of calmed down and just stay in and watch Netflix and get some writing done.

Autumn (1m 28s):
So that's always a good thing, but it just, you or emailing about a snow storm and all that, that's not good. It was a heavy, wet snow. I, it wasn't deep. It was just really heavy. So it broke things, but, you know, it's, you know, I just do my best to say off the news as much as possible, because otherwise it's like, you just keep watching. I keep thinking of like, by the time this is by the time this podcast is published, since we're recording early, that it's like, wow, hopefully the world's and a happy, safer place, then it feels like The for this week that were entering right now. But I will keep my fingers crossed. Oh yeah. Yeah. The, the things that are going a bit creepy over there and you'll part of the world's that's for sure.

Autumn (2m 11s):
Yeah, there is no other way of putting it. I just keeping my head down and writing and editing I'm on the edits for my next book release for the tainted face. So that's good. I actually put out a spreadsheet. What I did it, I thought I'd like, you would be proud because I always avoid spreadsheets and what we have. I made a spreadsheet for my edits and so I could tackle them organized matter and that they're going well. So I'm, I'm happy that way. Oh, that's right. Yeah. So how are things over there? Well, we are still in partial lock-down and Mark at the moment. It's a bit worse. So they've made more restrictions again.

Jesper (2m 52s):
Now we, we can still go grocery shopping and go for a walk outside, but that's more or less it and everything else are not really allowed. So I guess I'm starting to go a bit crazy or being locked up inside like that, but I'm, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is feeling increasingly annoyed at COVID 19. That was just so freaking annoying. But now I'm going to say, because it is named 19 because it is 2019, it's 20 to 21, but now that we should be again, moving on, but to get to what the program COVID.

Autumn (3m 26s):
Yeah, totally. But yeah, I mean, that's my mom and I'd go back and forth and I want to see my parents so badly. And obviously I can't right now, but we share a lot of pictures of what we are baking. And then a lady who's a property where we're at at, and I go and talk to her and we were talking about baking. I am like, I think this is what we're doing. Or if it's winter it's Vermont, there was too much snow for her to go for a really long walk. And let's you want to go to like snowshoeing and you know, we just talked about bacon. Yeah. Yeah. What else could you do? Exactly know, but I think a part from all of that, that things are well going well, well you are, and I mostly, you have to be in to stop the redesign of the Am Writing Fantasy website.

Autumn (4m 11s):
So that's pretty cool. I was so excited and it looked so good and that the it's just a pleasure to be on there and look at it and let me get so pretty. Yeah. So if any listeners want to check out what it looks like, then a just go to a Am Writing Fantasy dot com and check it out, let us know what you think. Yes. I would love to hear.

Jesper (4m 31s):
Oh yeah. And we've also been a busy as well. 'cause we have also moved our entire email list from ConvertKit to MailerLite and you'd be getting organized There that was a huge task, but I think it came out well, and we've been writing you can't forget the fact that you and I are writing a novella together. And so we're getting that good of the kinks of that worked out as well. Yeah. So it looks like all in all things that are going well after a wall would just have to ignore that COVID monster. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Narrator (5m 6s):
A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast

Jesper (5m 12s):
Cute and warm. Welcome goes to Dominic, all the latest SUPPORT on Patrion and welcome Dominic. It's so great to have you. Absolutely. So, yeah, as I've said, many times before, you know, if you haven't checked out Patrion already, please find the link in the show notes. We do try to offer a ton of rewards over there. And there are also the Wiki posts about writing and also book marketing. And I'll leave it to you to guess who's writing what posts. I don't know. They don't know if it's that. Well, yeah, it's a title they think, Oh, you don't think so. Oh yeah. Well at least if you're listening to the podcast for quite awhile, you can probably guess who's doing Writing post and who is doing bookmarking tools, even though we Krause hats occasionally,

Autumn (5m 59s):
But Yes, I don't know if he saw the message from Garret today, but I have started doing a description to Saurus inspired by the emotion of this story. So on. So I started with Forrest's and he said, you know, and love is describing the forest is as much of what is the current story isn't in the most difficult thing he is working on right now. So it was just like, I must have been reading in his mind because I just gave him a whole bunch of ideas for the forest and it was novel. So yeah. I just love that.

Jesper (6m 30s):
Oh yeah. That's very cool. Yes I did see him to the post office, so that, that was cool. Yeah. Yeah. So if you haven't checked it out already, go, go and check it out. And at least see if it's something for you and yeah, we'll be happy to have you.

Autumn (6m 48s):
Absolutely.

Jesper (6m 48s):
Anything else we should mention a Autumn before we start going crazy with our Spells?

Autumn (6m 54s):
Only, I just want to give another shout out to Luke and Jayson or moderators on Am Writing Fantasy because they deserve a shout out occasionally, cause they are, are gatekeepers. Like, Oh my goodness. That group is growing by leaps and bounds and is so much fun. And they, they are moderators who are entertainers. Well, I think it's a science. I love to see what they're antiques are. Yeah, it does the Facebook group.

Jesper (7m 19s):
So just search for Am Writing Fantasy under the groups on Facebook, if you want to be part of that community, they're, it's a, it's really funny, you know, that there is some, there are some good banter going on once in a while. And there is also a lot of helpful stuff. Pupil are helping each other out with advices and stuff like that. So it's really great. Luke usually pitchers in and helps with a good advice. And Jason, just a post, a ton of a inspirational questions. It's fantastic. Can you think about, yeah, he caught me and one of them he's so mean. I saw that. Yeah. That was so funny.

Autumn (7m 58s):
Let you down the rabbit hole. He did totally

Narrator (8m 3s):
Cool. And on to today's topic.

Jesper (8m 7s):
Yeah. So as I said at the top of this is one of the famous or perhaps in famous or infamous, so yeah, that might be the way to go, but it is one of our alternate alternating lists anyway. And a w I guess we'll try to have a bit of fun with this one. Autumn I think so, because so much fun coming up with it. I mean, there is the serious side, which I did a little bit of internet research and I did see that a lot of readers who had a number one worst Magic Systems they, like you ask that on a forum or a post and yeah. And they were the first thing, like 99%, I would say there is, they would be frustrated with inconsistent or poorly defined Magic Systems were a Magic user as could not do something in one book or one chapter.

Autumn (8m 52s):
And it was fun. It just fine in the next, or are they also the second, the runner up would probably have been, or where are the heroes have God like power and they just can't be defeated. And they would also need a superheroes like Superman. Yeah. They was like, here, there is no real tension. You're never worried. So I avoided those. But the one that I came up with, I went with actual magical ability is that if they existed, I would probably possibly have to turn down the ability to have Magic, which that's just like, what? I can't believe it would be the magic is an option. And I would say, no, that was what made my lists.

Jesper (9m 33s):
So yeah. Yeah. It was to try to go to the most silly way I could think of it. You know, like, like if I was amazed, this will be the Most USELESS Spells it could have that. It was kind of what I was trying to go for it. Well, this will be good. Yeah. So of course a, you know, maybe some of what we were saying probably nobody's wants to copy these Spells because they are quite USELESS, but maybe something will prompt another thought in somebody's mind and they might get a bit of inspiration for something. But otherwise this is just going to be a bit of fun today. So you can do a sort of leaning back and listen to a bit of a crisis stuff, but I think it would be perfect and it, maybe it will inspire us a moment of humor and some ones novel somewhere that would be kind of cool too.

Autumn (10m 22s):
Yeah. Before, before we get going, did you find it difficult? Autumn to try to work out some really USELESS Spells like I said, well, how, how did you think about it? Because to me, actually, it was harder than I thought it was. I actually came up with like four and I actually stuck most, mostly in the Magic Systems whole system. So we're going to actually have some really different things, which will be exciting, but I came up with For pretty easily. And then I finally came up with a fifth one, I think yesterday, but I did, this is one where I started last week and I did not, you know, I did not wait into the 15 minutes before we started recording. I actually did my homework and thought about this one pretty seriously.

Autumn (11m 4s):
Oh, wow. What a change? We just have to come up with some nonsense topics. And then you, what are you going to start going to do? Homework would be so serious about that nonsense topics. Okay. Absolutely. A very professional podcasting contrary ask my husband. It was probably more contrary than me. Yeah, no, actually I honestly found it a bit harder than I thought I thought, because it was like, if I was, if I was amazed and I felt like this was going to be the most stupid Spells that I could have, it felt like that I was actually harder than I thought, because then as soon as I started thinking about something, then I thought, well, actually, maybe in that situation it could.

Jesper (11m 48s):
So it was like, Hmm, how can you, how could I come up with something where it's a little, almost like, no matter what I can think of, it would be USELESS. So that was what was the way. So yeah, as I said, I cheated a bit, but I will say which ones are cheated with and a where I got a bit of inspiration from, from the internet, but there was some really funny one. So there were two funny not to include it on my list.

Autumn (12m 9s):
I like can't wait to hear them know. I think it would be fun. So it was funny. You went with it, like, what is the Most USELESS Spells and I went with, what would it take for me? Not to want to have Magic is so it'll be two different perspectives, but these are going to be so much fun.

Jesper (12m 26s):
And then at the end we'll have to, so we can think about this as we go. And I guess the listener can as well, but I think at the end we'll need to work out, which one of the 10 entries here is the winner and which one is the worst of it at all?

Autumn (12m 40s):
Well, I can not wait to share my worst worst with you then, but will get there. That's the last one we have to start at number two. Okay.

Jesper (12m 47s):
Or the thing is we have to agree on it. So yeah.

Autumn (12m 51s):
So there will be a winner, a winner of the worst. I don't know if I want to be that winner.

Jesper (12m 56s):
Oh, well you could say that the one who came up with the worst one was to most creative. So in that way you want,

Autumn (13m 2s):
I like that one. Okay.

Jesper (13m 6s):
Okay. So yeah. Do you want to start off? Do you want me to start? Oh, I actually have ranked my mind by the way. So the number five is the least stupid one. And number one is the worst.

Autumn (13m 17s):
I Oh, so I did it the opposite. So my number one is the most, like if this existed for Magic, it probably wouldn't bother me too much. And number five is okay. Now if this existed, I might actually work on annihilating magics. Okay.

Jesper (13m 32s):
All right. We just need to work from least bad to worst. Perfect. So we work in that order.

Autumn (13m 39s):
I am ready for that. So whoever wants to start, if you want to go ahead.

Jesper (13m 45s):
All right. So number five was a kid. This was one of my internet searches. It's it's pretty bad, but I can still do worse. So I actually found a list of USELESS D and D Spells. Oh, and this is what you just really stood out to me because I don't know what the game to sign us up. Even up to maybe they've been drinking, but they, they made this, I dunno. But so this one is just an, I have no idea of which version of D and D I was in a word or whatnot. So if we have some really competent gay masters out, their please don't kill me. It's it's just a word of the intranet. Right? So it is not my fault if it's incorrect, but it's funny.

Jesper (14m 29s):
Anyway, so this spell is called banished DASSLE. So a read out to you what the spill actually does. It's laughing at myself. I haven't even started yet. Oh, no. Okay. So once the spell is cast to target, see clearly through blinding sunlight and heat shimmer reflected some light from a mirror has no effect on the target and they are immune from being blinded by Lightspeed cells. So can you walk out what that is?

Autumn (15m 3s):
Why would they have that is basically a path. So there is this just some classes for me to spell it for sunglasses. If I was in way

Jesper (15m 20s):
Spells I hope that I could do something better than casting sunglasses. It was just like it.

Autumn (15m 28s):
So that's yeah, I, that would just not be that impressive as this

Jesper (15m 34s):
Now he's like, Oh my God, it's a bit shocked today. And then I'll do my spell thingie and then, ah, it's not a sharp anymore. It's like, okay. I have all made sense.

Autumn (15m 47s):
Yeah. That's what you were doing. You were getting a little senile and you know, the brightness bothers your eyes more. Okay.

Jesper (15m 56s):
Yeah. Well, yeah, actually, maybe if you work at a, at a home for the elderly, maybe that would actually be All right. I'm casting it on some of these.

Autumn (16m 5s):
Oh, there you go. Yeah. That would be the favorite with everyone there. Ah, yeah. Okay.

Jesper (16m 12s):
So you see, actually, this is why it was the least bad of them because it actually has some USELESS

Autumn (16m 18s):
You were useful, useful, useful uselessness. There we go. Yeah. That was the way that's a tongue twister. All right. Let's say if you want to hear my, my, what? My Magic Systems that if this existed, I might be able to pull it up with it for it, if it meant having Magic. Okay. All right. So that whenever you cast a spell, a smell is also created. So this could be anything from like lavender and honey two, you know, skunk farm and you know, something rancid. And I also thought of the caveat that, of course, anything that likes to eat Magic users would definitely learn to track you by smells.

Autumn (17m 0s):
So, yeah, it's, it's a mild, this was like one, a five year five-year-old would adore. But I was thinking, you know, I don't do this. I could see the embarrassment in polite society when you're trying to cast a spell it. And it's like, it wasn't me. I made Magic as like the court wizard. Okay.

Jesper (17m 19s):
We have with the King and everything and they didn't. I tell you that you should not fall off when you're passing.

Autumn (17m 23s):
All right. So this would be quite amusing in a different world because it is funny. It did make me think that in a world building, I don't know of any Magic system where Magic actually produces a smell, it's always lights are tingling or something. Why does it smells? Why does it Magic never pass the smell. So There I challenge all those out there. Mc smells. Mc your Magic smell. Yeah. Or it could be a sound. Well, maybe, I mean, well, it's sometimes do metrics metrics. Spells does it make sense already, but its Yes male. It's the smell as good. But I was wondering if you could make, if you could make magic spells where there is a smell, but it doesn't turn it turn into like ridiculous stuff.

Autumn (18m 15s):
I mean, because imagine that you're writing your novel in and you're saying OK. And the cost of Spells a fireball at the enemy and there was a smell of lavender. It's just like it instantly turned it into what the, what is this idea that you would definitely have to create something they brimstone or solve or that goes on, you know, every spell it would have to maybe have a slightly different older that fits it's otherwise it would be, I don't know, it'd be quite the contrary where you have this devastating, horrible spell that kills people and it smells like roses and they have got a roast and a thought, ah, there you go.

Autumn (18m 57s):
Oh, well, if you had a fun kids, but if you think this would be a fantastic children, okay. Yeah. The activity then it might. Yeah. Well I have done it again. This is not too bad when we were supposed to come up with a completely useless stuff, but now we've had to go on our list already and we already found uses for them, but it's only number five. Wait until you get to number one. Okay. All right. So your number four. All right. So this is one that I came up with and I almost cannot think of a single situation where this spell would be useful, but maybe you can, maybe it maybe, maybe I'll change my mind in the minute.

Jesper (19m 41s):
Do I, when I come up with the use for this Spells I'm not sure how I'm going to concede that easily. I had asked. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Try and get it to a general direction. And so this is the ability to, or a spell that makes anything tasteless. Oh, that's horrible. What do you think about that? I think it's horrible. You know, I'm a foodie. I love food. This is just so I'm personally terrified of COVID because you can't taste things. If I couldn't taste my tea, I would just cry every day.

Jesper (20m 24s):
Yeah. And I'm thinking as well, you know that if you were in a medieval fantasy setting a, I mean, it's actually really good to things, taste bad when they're off, then you know, not to eat it, but, and even if you don't like the food, why would you want to make a tasteless and eat it anyway? Yeah. Can you think of a single situation where this would be useful? Yeah. If you need to take medicine for some horrible condition into the medicine was just absolutely patron. I just thought it's so hard about this cannot be used in any situation whatsoever. I have a really strong gag reflex.

Autumn (21m 4s):
So there's definitely, I, I have a hard time taking pills and things. So no, this was totally there's times. I would probably like that for five seconds and then everything comes back to normal. I'd be frightened. There's got to be a reverse anti tastes for me then it wasn't that bad anyway. Yeah. Okay. Every kid, yeah. Every kid who was going to take medicine for a cold or something would want this spell. Totally. Okay.

Jesper (21m 30s):
Ah, okay. Okay. I can see that's not a good one. Yeah.

Autumn (21m 34s):
I like it though. I might want that one, but yeah. So yeah, we're going for a worst. Spells that's not, ah, that's not quite that bad. It is very useful to have it in your back

Jesper (21m 43s):
Pocket as you would work out on my bad

Autumn (21m 44s):
Spill list thing. So we needed another weak for this now. All right. You ready? For my, a number of For. Yeah. All right. So for this Magic system, I went with the idea of the law of that for every action, an equal and opposite reaction happens. And this would hold true with Magic. But in this case, if you cast a healing spell your first, so while you might save your friend's life, you're going to be walking around with the extreme chance of dying in a remarkably stupid way for at least several days or more, or the opposite would hold true. And if you cast a curse that you would have to be given good luck. So I was thinking, this is what came to me is like this scene where a guy is to save his own life, has to decide if he wants to kill that curse, like his lover or As best friend.

Autumn (22m 33s):
So when you curse someone out to something horrible, like Boyles or POCs or whatever, it's just so you can save your own skin. The attention for writing this scene will be so much fun. Yeah.

Jesper (22m 46s):
Because I was like, yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking. I mean, if I was a major, I would find it pretty annoying that this is the Magic system, but if it was a Magic system for a story to that, I was going to read. Yeah. Again, it could actually be a bit interesting because you have to read it. When is it worth it to use my Magic skills and when is it not, but I'm not sure that the major's in the setting will be very happy people. Yeah.

Autumn (23m 13s):
It goes to show that we're really cruel to our characters who are like, Oh, that'd be interesting to do to them. But for ourselves in those, we love, we are like, Oh, that'd be a horrible, we should never, ever condone that. So yeah. Yeah. Well for yourself. But the,

Jesper (23m 34s):
But, but it is, I like those when, when you have this kind of a,

Autumn (23m 41s):
Well

Jesper (23m 42s):
That there is a very high price to pay for something I liked that maybe you you've taking a bit to the extreme there, but yeah.

Autumn (23m 49s):
Oh no, no. If you want to extreme, that's coming. Don't worry. Okay.

Jesper (23m 53s):
Ah, okay. Okay. Well, I can not wait almost to here what you have on your list. All right.

Autumn (23m 60s):
But yeah, I thought that way, like I said, that I would actually be tempted too, at least do a flash fiction or something along those lines. Cause it would be kind of fun to do that to a characters, but yeah, it was a Magic system. I don't know if I could do a whole book of that. Oh my goodness.

Jesper (24m 15s):
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well you could, but then I think Magic would have to be a very small part of the story. Right. So that it, it cannot be like the main character is Raceland and so on. And then at that kind of work, no, unless he just wanted to go around and like curse everybody and Hugh himself all the time. Right? Yeah,

Autumn (24m 39s):
Exactly. Yeah. He would have wonderful luck, but the world would go to shite, but he would be doing so well.

Jesper (24m 45s):
I think the thing about having a likable character sort of goes out the window

Autumn (24m 50s):
Only if they feel guilty. Well casting curses for good luck.

Jesper (24m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think the readers will appreciate that character very much. No, I wouldn't. Okay. So we are like in the middle of the list now. Yeah. So I want to hear your number three. Yeah. And since my first two attempts to create something completely useless, wasn't that USELESS so anyway, I've Now board or something from somewhere else. So that if this is actually useful than it's not my fault. Okay.

Autumn (25m 21s):
All right. That sounds good. Casting the blame elsewhere. I understand.

Jesper (25m 26s):
Yes. And that's usually the easiest way of doing things, you know, because then they'll know you don't feel bad about anything is never your fault, you know, I like it. And so my number three, I borrowed from the Harry Potter universe, because this one seems a, well, at least to me, both stupid and utterly useless. So I just found it. I did find it on a website listing USELESS Spells talk to at Hogwarts, if the person that wants to a laugh at some more Spells than doing an internet search for four, that just search for USELESS Spells taught at Hogwarts and you will find some lists and there was quite some stupid stuff in there, but anyway, he goes, so this was one of the ones that I found Well Most USELESS all right.

Jesper (26m 16s):
So at this point is actually from the Harry Potter books I already Oh yeah. So let's go for it. Okay. Quote, he and Ron both tapped the tea cups. They were supposed to be charming with their hands Harris sprouted for a very short legs that would not reach the desk and wriggled pointlessly in midair. Ron's grew for a very thin, might be X that hosted the cup off the desk with great difficulty tremble for a few seconds, then folded causing the cup to crack into two and three.

Autumn (26m 52s):
What is, this is the point of that smell a smell that makes tea cups grow legs. Yeah. I mean, even if you do it,

Jesper (27m 0s):
Can you spell, why would you want a walk-in tea, coffee? I just don't understand that.

Autumn (27m 6s):
So I can see one years for it and that his, if my husband knew what he would do it just to torture me so that I would have to be chasing down my tea, besides that I can't think of anything. I can't think of anything useful about it really. Are you sure? I'm sure. Other than torturing me now, I think that's all that comes to mind.

Jesper (27m 26s):
So if you were a like really lazy and a, well, somebody who is still have to put it into the cups of it, it doesn't help. Yeah.

Autumn (27m 34s):
I mean, what if it's too hot or I don't know. I mean, hell a lot of these. What's the, how well could they hold the cup and it's not going to slop all over you. I don't know. There's there's too many things. It can go wrong as Harry and Robin prove. Yeah. I just don't know.

Jesper (27m 51s):
So just to be like a complete failure as a Magic use, and this is what I can just be like, where is the Magic school please? A please let me, and then teach me something like, this is just, just a complete the new one.

Autumn (28m 6s):
Yeah. That, that, that one, you know, that'd be good for maybe a children's a tea party just to entertain them a little bit, but yeah. Havoc would reign. Hmm. Okay. So yeah.

Jesper (28m 19s):
Let's see if we can do better than that, then I'm racing the takes on you hear that, right?

Autumn (28m 22s):
Why do you feel that? I can feel it. I actually feel the pressure on this is it's like you are reaching the mid point of the chapter and you're like, Oh, something's going to happen now, but Hey, I'm going to take one from your book. And I borrowed this one from somewhere and other source that's actually comes from the book, the magicians. So it is if Magic is so complicated and effected by the natural world so easily that you basically need a spreadsheet or a computer algorithm, I'm imagining an app on your phone to double check the star charts, the tide charts, the time the sun Rose, where the moon is located and, and what constellation and the humidity of the air, the weather and all of that.

Autumn (29m 4s):
It just, it makes, Magic so complicated that it basically takes the magic out of Magic though. I did think it would be funny. Like I said, you'll have this app on your phone that says, you know, do to today's humidity and sunrise. You must turn 30 degrees to the East that to cast the spell. If you'd like,

Jesper (29m 24s):
What is it? Actually, it would be a bit cooler if it was like in the, the app where you could basically be swipe Spells. So it was me like, he's the one on the environment up today and the Star's and the moon and what not teach how to Spells available. Swipe are the ones you want

Autumn (29m 39s):
To cap. It was just like that. Actually it would be hilarious. It's just what you need is a very short story idea that it would be actually to, that would be kind of fun. Yeah.

Jesper (29m 50s):
All right. So, but are the only problem is if, if you are being attacked and you don't have any attack, Spells on your app to see your phone goes dead. Yeah. You all are better than in the middle of a dragon breathing down on you is like, Oh shit, you know, in here, but no.

Autumn (30m 8s):
Oh yeah. Well, especially if you did make it go, you know, medieval, so we don't have phones and you can do, can you just mention the scrolls a, you would have to double-check to check to the cast any Spells it would just be, that would be murderous. I'd be like, no, I'm just, I'm going to wing it and see what happens. I might turn it into a turn up. I don't care.

Jesper (30m 28s):
Yeah. I think without the, well, w without an app or something to control it, it would be a, you have to carry it around a library, just a cast once a while. I think majors would just stop casting spells its like this is not even worth it because it's much easier to just to learn how to fight with a sword instead of, or something.

Autumn (30m 48s):
That's right. That's when I was reading in the magicians because they didn't have a nap and they just, it was a very complicated like checking all of these things. And I was like, Oh, you know, if Magic was this complicated, I would be the rebels getting everything wrong because I would never ever check everything correctly. And I'd forget by the time I got to the end or the humidity would have changed because it took me so long to figure it out. So just so much fun.

Jesper (31m 10s):
What story do they have to do? They have to sell it to sort of worked out what they can cast. I mean, what else?

Autumn (31m 16s):
I honestly forget. I just remember that part of the Magic system going just know that you need a spreadsheet. It's not for me.

Jesper (31m 24s):
Okay. Well you just said that you had started at this point.

Autumn (31m 27s):
It's only for editing. If I am not,

Jesper (31m 30s):
You you're already on your cheek taking the first step. You just have to follow it

Autumn (31m 34s):
Now to add the Magic items to this spreadsheet and correlate them in. Oh yeah. Just pick it app. I'll ask my nephew to write me a new app code and I'll be fine.

Jesper (31m 47s):
Oh yeah. Well he would be even more crazy if, if, if it's like, as long as you just have the app and you could cast a spell it out, you just swiped them and then they were, I mean, you don't even have to be a Magic Magic everybody could just like download the app and, and I wonder how much of an app like that would cost you.

Autumn (32m 5s):
You said I'm sure there would be tears, but I would pay anything for God. Power is in that one. That is all. So I will sell my soul for that app. Please

Jesper (32m 14s):
I'm pretty sure I was going to be a very expensive, so

Autumn (32m 16s):
I think so to, but man, I'm going to invent that one. That would be pretty cool.

Jesper (32m 22s):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes.

Autumn (32m 24s):
On many levels, many, many levels are perfect. All right, let's get a number two. Okay.

Jesper (32m 30s):
Yeah, it was actually also two levels to my, my number two, because I started in one place and then I sort of changed it a bit. So, but let me just first day what to say when I started But and I changed it a bit. All right. So I try to think a bit bigger for a number two, you know, w we are approaching the top of that last year. So for this one, I actually thought about a whole Magic Systems rather than just a single Spells at first, I was sort of wondering how poor a matching system would be if it was based on dreams alone. Oh, you see? So basically you have like almost no control over your Spells.

Jesper (33m 13s):
Do you mean it's just going to be whatever your dream is, what you can cast and like yeah. It's it's going to be pretty USELESS right.

Autumn (33m 21s):
So it would be, but I am actually a little terrified because my kids, my husband actually had a dream the other night where I died. So I'm glad this was, this is when she says it is that it would be horrible if you woke up upset or at least. Yeah.

Jesper (33m 38s):
That's not good. I know this. This

Autumn (33m 41s):
Is Magic Systems is terrifying me know. Okay. Yeah.

Jesper (33m 45s):
And also, I mean, it would be pretty bad if, if let's say the oxide attacking you on it, you're like, Whoa, hold on, hold on. I just need to fall asleep for us to do this. And then maybe I could save money. Can you please stop hearing me? I can sleep when you are hitting me. Yeah.

Autumn (34m 0s):
All right. I can imagine you and your best friend has a lot of night terrors, so you're like, Oh no, you need more caffeine. Have some more caffeine. You need more caffeine. You cannot go to sleep tonight. I'm not sleeping next to you.

Jesper (34m 10s):
Oh my God. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually it would probably be the other way around. It would not be about a watch Spells you can cast it. It would be other people's trying to prevent you from them.

Autumn (34m 20s):
I guess. I just keep bumping you every time you start falling asleep. Nope. We got back up for you.

Jesper (34m 27s):
Yeah. And This but then, because then I thought, well, if it's a Magic system than me, it just should sort of be able to cast Spells when they want to cast panel. So otherwise it's sort of like, well, I don't know, then it didn't feel right. So I changed it a bit. And I said, what if you were only able to cast Spells when you were intoxicated?

Autumn (34m 50s):
Oh no. What do you think of that? I'm thinking of, it sounds like a really bad rave, but it might be fun to go.

Jesper (34m 59s):
Yeah. I mean, well, I guess everybody would be drugs. All the majors are always drunk and I mean, I, I could see me how it might work. OK. If you were planning out your Spells in advance, you know, so, so, so, so it's going to be like, okay, tonight, I'm going to have to cast the all seeing Spells that allows me to see where the enemy army is Apple or something. And then, you know, you'll have a bottle of wine and then you will cast your spell and the next day you can tell the King, well, they are to a hundred miles off. I saw it yesterday. So in that sense we might work. Yeah. But I just can't see the battle scenes again.

Jesper (35m 41s):
Right. So what does this drunken stupid visit is tumbling around with a wet battlefield and fire's shooting all of the firewalls left and right. And this is just like, he's completely drunk out of his mind.

Autumn (35m 54s):
Yeah. It would be again, probably a hilarious to, to write. And I can imagine that people going, Oh gosh, it was power is fading. Like give him a shot or, you know, carrying around them. So a Royal or a magical apprentice gets to be the one carrying the wine flask and keeping in the wizard shrunk. So it would be, it would be a hoot to, to write. And it would definitely be a, a ton of fun at a party. But yeah. You know how people use, it's so hard to stay focused. And so you'd be like, Oh, look at a pretty bird. No, not a dragon. You have to get rid of the dragon.

Autumn (36m 33s):
Yeah.

Jesper (36m 35s):
Yeah. Do you ever forget about the dragon again? Oh my God.

Autumn (36m 40s):
It could be a really good if someone wanted to write FANTASY comedy, it'd be really funny. It, even if it was just one wizard, like the most powerful wizard, this is just how it was. Magic worked best. It was like pirates pirates of the Caribbean meets Merlin. Yeah, I do it. Yeah.

Jesper (37m 0s):
Oh my God. Now you found it useful and again, okay. You need to stop doing that in my life.

Autumn (37m 6s):
I want it. I want to win this way. Sorry.

Jesper (37m 9s):
Yeah, I can hear it. So it is just not okay.

Autumn (37m 13s):
Okay. Well I'll, I'll try it to sober up. Okay. Okay. All right. So you're ready for him. My number two. Yes.

Jesper (37m 19s):
And I have to find something to make

Autumn (37m 22s):
It useful in part. Okay. Well, if you do it, that's fine because this is actually inspired by it. It's partially inspired by the wheel of time series, but I know it was not your fault. It's not my fault. If you can find a use for this one. And again, this is a variance of this would have been used in so many numerous Fantasy stories in settings. And it's, I mean, at the basics level, it's at Magic causes physical problems, but for this one to make it something that really makes me say no, if that's how magic works, don't sign me up. I'm going to stick with the extreme example. And it's not just forgetfulness or insanity your blindness or deafness, but instead, do you use a, Magic basically can interfere with your blood circulation and cause sections of your living body to start to write almost like a Necros, but that's Nick or Costco thick or flesh-eating bacteria.

Autumn (38m 14s):
So just say no, you know, do you think that comes down to chunks of my physical being, just turning gangrenous, falling off? I am good. I think I would rather go learn to use your words.

Jesper (38m 34s):
You know, where's your leg? Well, I can

Autumn (38m 37s):
Liken yesterday. It was for us. I mean, it's this slowly putrefying like get worse and like, Oh, it looks like a bruise and start turning green and spreading. And you don't know how far it's going to spread and no, it's almost like a zombie Magic it just don't know. I don't want that one, but okay. But what is, what if you are a vampire? Oh, you just kind of he'll again, you would hit it again. Okay. So that as long as you have something to counter act.

Autumn (39m 15s):
Yeah. So all, if you were a ghost or something, if you're already dead. Yeah, definitely. You have to, yeah. Something short of being able to magically here and be a goddess so that, you know, maybe it lasts a day or two and then fades and you heal it. It, it grows back. Yeah. So I think I just made it useful and I think that's the conclusion of that. Okay. I'll let you have that one. All right. So there was still in the worst of worst of the worst for this coming. I'm ready. I know that.

Autumn (39m 57s):
No, I really liked this number one. It is so stupid. I can't believe it. This is also from the list of D and D Spells. Oh. And I found the more you use the spelled it wrong. So it's called the chest dies. So this is when you don't have the time to speak, to tell someone, what do you really think about them? Okay. You can cast a spell and it will take care of it for you. What are those? The satisfaction of that. And then also what was pointed out on that list is that you would actually have to speak the words, you know, to cast a spell.

Autumn (40m 43s):
So you could just go tell them what you're saying. I'm not even sure. I'm not even sure how you're going to save any time because you have to speak anyway. I guess if there's travel involved that keeps you from having to go see them. I assume you can cast it. So at a distance, I don't think so. Oh, jeez. What is it also said that the extra piece of information was that the spill also only works on people who actually offended the spell caster. Oh, right. So we could only watch the, somebody who offended you. And it only works if you're basically standing in front of them. So you have a choice about just speaking back to them or say, speak some words and cast a spell, and then the spell was big back to them.

Autumn (41m 26s):
But one of the So here at 26. Can you make it on repeat? So it's like, it's just driving them insane for an hour or that could be worth it depending on how much they pissed you off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but I just don't know for this one. I, I dare you. You can

Jesper (41m 42s):
Not find a single situation with this is useful.

Autumn (41m 45s):
I am struggling. I have to admit short of being able to have a repeat button so that you can harass someone on with it. It doesn't say anything about it.

Jesper (41m 53s):
A repeat button. You can invent things to me.

Autumn (41m 57s):
So I get it. But this year as well, you're not sharing your spill coding. All right, fine. Oh, I know. I have to do. Yeah. I have to say, I think that one is USELESS so there you go. I do really don't know what to do with that, but it wasn't that it was not me thinking, Oh, well that's pretty. It was a USELESS I have to admit. Okay. Okay. Good. All right. Let me hear you one. All right. Well, this is again, this is this one fit. The definition is that right now? As far as I know, I've made it up. I don't know if it exists, but this is the one Magic system that I could come up with that if it existed, I not only don't want to have Magic.

Autumn (42m 41s):
I might be part of the rebellion and the resistance to destroy Magic so you're ready for this one. Yeah. All right. So what actually gives you the ability to have a new use? Magic is a parasite. So the only way to have magic is to have this thing living inside of you slowly growing and feeding off of you until it kills you and small larva burst from your skin to infect, waiting, apprentices. It's just going to go more and more of it that I don't know how I can work on it a little bit more if you'd like it. I think that's plenty.

Autumn (43m 22s):
Oh. But yeah, I think if that was the way Magic worked, that I might actually try to annihilate it. That's just wrong. So how, how long does it take before this worm kills? You know, I didn't come up with that timeline. I have to admit, I was thinking if you have to hide to give to someone maybe a couple years, but look it up because then a month. Okay. How powerful our you during these couple of years. So let's see. That is something, Oh, I didn't want to build that. That was a good question. I would imagine that probably towards the end, when you're like nothing more than a shriveled husk, you could cast them really nice potent Magic because you're mostly magical parasite at that point.

Autumn (44m 2s):
I mean, as the parasite grows in you and your Magic ability, it should become stronger. So you can do it,

Jesper (44m 8s):
Turn yourself into a glitch in the end and then you will become,

Autumn (44m 13s):
Oh, I don't know. But I can see now I'm starting to find your freedom. I'm just wondering how that would affect the parasite. Because once you don't have the parasite, you'd have to bond with the parasites. Some Well somehow, otherwise you want to have Magic and it would fail. So you have to test this a lot before, you know, getting of these parasites in your system. Oh yeah. Oh my God. That's pretty nasty. Thank you. I tried really hard for you. You know? It was, it felt like a horror story, almost a dark Fantasy. Why not a little horror. FANTASY okay. People. That was a really bad spill.

Autumn (44m 55s):
So Magic Systems I don't know if that was useful at all, but maybe, hopefully it made everyone laugh or they got to think about you or do something and they kind of considered before, like what their Magic Systems smells like. Yeah. True. So which one is the worst? One of the more that I don't know, I have to say for the most USELESS being able to just chastise someone is kind of silly, but doesn't get the running T cup thing. Why or why would you do that? I don't know. Those are definitely the most USELESS. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, I really like you a bad one there.

Autumn (45m 40s):
My parents age. Yeah. Your parents hide, but at least during those years, it is useful, useful, useful. I mean, you can do a lot of stuff during those. Yeah. It will kill you, but you can do a lot of the stuff. That's all right. But I was going for worst Magic Systems so I think for worse. Yeah. I, like I said, For, if that was the way Magic worked, I might go to be pretty good at killing parasites. I would be a Magic parasite Hunter. What would it be? Kind of fun actually to write, but, Hmm, damn. Huh. Yeah. I have a suggestion for that. Okay. All right. What is it? What if we split at this one? And so that we say we're Magic system is you are a parasite one and the worst spell, is it okay? I will go for that. We both get to be crowned winners for this one.

Autumn (46m 24s):
Yeah. Yeah. It was my, it was my suggestion. Now are you regretting, you gotta learn to share or I guess so. Okay. So next Monday we get back to a bit of a more serious topic as we are discussing the seven steps of story structure.

Narrator (46m 46s):
So if you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn in Jesper, on patrieon.com/AmWritingFantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going to stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 109 –Tips from an Audiobook Narrator - With Brian Grace

Have you wanted to make your novel into an audiobook but wasn't sure what to expect or what a narrator would need?

Join Autumn and voice actor and narrator Brian Grace to explore audiobooks from the other side of the creative coin as they delve into what a narrator needs to bring your story to life, how they choose a project to tackle, why a narrator costs so much, what it is they actually do, and if they secretly love your characters as much as you. 

Learn more about Brian on his website at http://briangracevo.com/ and his film demo at https://youtu.be/1yB7lsYbU-M.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (3s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self-published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn, Birt, and Jesper Schmidt.

Autumn (32s):
Hello, I'm Autumn. And today we have a special guest with us for episode 109 with me. I have audio book, narrator and actor, Brian grace. Hi, Brian, how are you today?

Brian (49s):
I'm doing really well. How are you?

Autumn (50s):
Good. I'm so excited to have you join me for so many reasons. One, because I know there's so many authors out there who want to produce audio books and they're not quite sure, you know, there's the steps. You can go online and read the blog posts, but you're an actual audio book narrator. So I thought it'd be really fun to get the perspective of what you need, what, what you want to see an author bring to you, but also because you are my audio book narrator, and I just thought it would be fantastic to talk to you and record a podcast.

Brian (1m 24s):
I'm looking forward to it. It sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah.

Autumn (1m 27s):
So you've been working with me on my post-apocalyptic series, friends of my enemy, and we, we just determined for almost four years now because it's a long series. And so I just thought this is great. I know you through what we've done together, but if you would like to introduce yourself, because I know, especially since we've met, there's so much more you've been doing well.

Brian (1m 53s):
Sure. I've actually started, I guess you could say officially acting in 2015. When I started such a voice, I went online and found the, the website that kind of taught you how to be a voice actor. And I went through that. It was about an eight month course, and that introduced me to the world of narration and animation, which I didn't think was possible for me when I was growing up. Cause I just figured it was something just for the famous folks. I just figured, okay, you had to be already a big name or already have some sort of like following in order to get anywhere in the voiceover world. But I quickly found out through that lesson that anybody can do it. And if you have the talent, the sky's the limit.

Brian (2m 34s):
So I started through that and then once I got my demo through them, I started picking up theater. I started theater in 2017 with a Christmas Carol and my first ever role was a Bob Pratchett.

Autumn (2m 48s):
I thought that was pretty darn cool.

Brian (2m 49s):
So that's a good first role. Yeah. I mean, it'd be like the second billing actor in the, in the stage play. So that was a lot of fun. And then I started doing acting in 2018, Throughout many different plays and shows. And I started into a film acting once I came back in 2018 for a Christmas Carol for the second time, one of the actors told me about Norman, Oklahoma and how they had the actor factory up there. So I decided to start checking them out. I went over there, I started taking classes from them and then I got myself, an agent here in Tulsa, met her through my church and she was just beginning her actor issues.

Brian (3m 31s):
She was beginning her studio. So I got involved with Eric, got to be one of her first actors. And then I started doing a film, a film and TV stuff. I've been in several different, smaller roles, nothing huge to date, but things are still working and things are still moving around and I'm constantly taking classes and learning all the time. So as far as my acting career goes, I'm, I'm doing the best I can and getting out there and getting my name out there and marketing as much as I can and always continuing to learn.

Autumn (4m 2s):
That's awesome. Well, I mean, I know I'm totally biased, but I've worked with over nine audio book narrators now. And I just think you're extremely talented. I feel so lucky to have you, so I know you're going to go far. I, I'm not that worried about it, but you just have to finish up this last book first before you right away.

Brian (4m 22s):
Yeah. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your patience. I mean, I know it's been a hectic couple of years, but I'm going to get this book done as quickly as I possibly can.

Autumn (4m 30s):
No, I, that I'll miss you, but that's okay. Cause I know we'll both do great things and we'll maybe we'll end up together again. So that's all right. It'll be worth it.

Brian (4m 37s):
Yeah. It's not like we're going to stop communicating once the book is done. Right?

Autumn (4m 40s):
I would hope not. I still wanted to go and get a beer. Oh yeah,

Brian (4m 45s):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah. I come over there to Vermont or you come over here to Oklahoma. Yeah, we'll get, we can chill. I'll be fine.

Autumn (4m 51s):
That would be a lot of fun. All right. So before we get too nostalgic and everyone else's like, okay, I thought this was about audio books. Oh, we met via ACX, which is Amazon's audible production, you know, their audio book production. So is there anywhere else that you have a profile or where you would suggest that people can find narrators? I know find a way voices has become big, especially outside the U S so where, where do you think people should be looking for, especially authors be looking for narrators,

Brian (5m 25s):
Looking for an adjust narration. I would suggest ACX is a really good start. Although the, the profit sharing is a bit biased towards ACX. They do take, they do take a majority of the money, which is kind of, yeah, it's kind of sad for both authors and narrators. Cause you know, they take 60 wherever you have to, you have to split 40 between you and the author, which is kind of a bum deal. But Hey, it's, it's meant for beginners. It's meant for people who are authors, who are just beginning to look for a great narrators and narrators, just looking for great for good stories, but ACX is great to start for, for getting that, getting that experience, getting a couple bucks, but another nice one is behind the voice actors.com.

Brian (6m 9s):
That's where I really started. Okay. That's where I really started was behind the voice actors.com and that's most of those projects are free. You don't actually get any money from them, but the experiences you get from them are incredible. Especially if you want to do character work because there's a lot of people on there. They put their passion projects on there, like students or filmmakers, things like that. They put their projects on there and they put like lines for different characters and they say, here's what the character is supposed to be. Sometimes they have a picture of what the character looks like and they say, this is going to be a cartoon. It's going to air on such and such website. And we want to have some voices. So they do like a casting call and anybody can go on there and get a free account and then actually audition for those lines.

Brian (6m 57s):
And if you're chosen, you get to be part of their project again, most of the time. Yeah. Most of the time it's not paid, but it's the experience. And it's also a big, big, kinda like a projection point for anybody who's starting off.

Autumn (7m 12s):
Oh, I think that sounds actually like a lot of fun. That's kind of cool. I might just check it out to see what people are doing. Cause I'd love to say creativity,

Brian (7m 21s):
All sorts of projects. I mean, I just, I just addition for another one recently, because, so I'm also part of a, a voice acting class that takes place. My, my teacher is actually in LA and he's a pretty big time voice actor and a coach. And he does, he's done movies. He's on films, but what's cool is that he has a group setting that he calls the panic room, which is kind of fun. That basically it allows, allows people who are just beginning in the voiceover world to kind of throw out their ideas. And they have group settings. It's about like 20 people that get together and they share their ideas and they share their projects and things like that.

Brian (8m 2s):
But I found from behind the voice actors and other projects, so I was like, Oh, let's try this for my class. I brought it into the class. They all, they all thought I did a great job. So I was like, well, if I did so good, I might as well audition for it. So I went ahead and audition for it.

Autumn (8m 18s):
Oh, that's exciting. Like I said, it's amazing the things that you've gotten into and I love seeing your career blossom. So I think it's really cool. Yeah. I appreciate that. It's funny though. Cause so you're talking about projects and stuff and so that's always a good topic. So when you're considering a book or any of these other projects, how important is it to like the story or the characters or are you just sometimes looking for a challenge or something easy? Maybe not a challenge. I mean, what does it take for you to be like, yeah, I want to interview for that.

Brian (8m 51s):
Well, I mean, I believe that in order to tackle any project, you have to have some sort of connection with it or else it's just kind of a waste of time. But when I considered a friends of my enemy, for instance, I mean I read the scene from the book, the book one where I actually had Jared meeting Derek for the first time. And all I knew about the story was that it was just a dystopian war drama and, and the book needed several accents from all across the world. So my immediate thought was, wow, that sounds really tough, but I really liked the challenge. And it sounds like a really cool idea. So for more from me really, I warmed up to the characters more than I wanted to the story in the beginning. So once I actually started figuring out who the characters were and I talked to you about how you wanted them to sound accents were from, I did a lot of research on the accents and then I started falling in love with the characters because I figured out that every character is basically a reflection of you as the narrator.

Brian (9m 48s):
So when you actually, when you actually develop a character, they are you. So they basically become your best friends. And there's no way you can forget your best friends once you got them.

Autumn (9m 60s):
That's so it's very much how, when I'm writing, I feel the same way because people often say like, ask that question. Well, who's your favorite character? And my Pat answer is the character I'm writing in now because it could be the villain. It could be, it's really hard sometimes when it's a teenage ditzy girl, I have a hard time with that character, but you have to do your best. Like you said, it's your best friend. You want to tell their story the best you can. And it's so awesome to hear that reflected in what you do. You were basically taking this on and it's like, you know, it's like, you're the author, you're the narrator. And you want to give the story, whoever point of view, whatever character, the best story you can.

Brian (10m 42s):
Right. And I believe that it's, it is your story as the author. So I have to do justice for the author. And what I think is nice is that you can actually give some like audio clips of what you think the character should sound like, but you also get the author's opinion saying like, well, I like, I like this, but maybe I should make him sound more Southern or maybe, maybe actually sounding more European or something like that. So it makes it, so you get to play around with the author before you create the character, you know? Yeah,

Autumn (11m 11s):
I do. I remember when we were first starting out and he would send me clips and we would discuss, or you would ask me like, have you ever thought about how this character sounds and you know, it's there, but when you're writing, I don't know. Maybe some people already are visual. I visualize it more than hear it. And so you did make me sit down and think, well, how does that character sound? And so some tough questions.

Brian (11m 35s):
Yeah. And I had to do a lot of research on different accents and that, that took a long time. Cause I mean, going on to YouTube and looking up how someone from South Africa sounds versus how someone from like Australia sounds or Northern Europe, Southern Europe, you know, all different parts of the world. I had to look up so many different accents,

Autumn (11m 58s):
That's my fault. But you did an amazing job and it was stunning. And I, there are a lot of narrators that I've worked with and talked to who just narrate the entire story in the same tone. Oh, well, you know, they add the emphasis or they get excited, but you literally give each character an accent, a sound that is individual and unique. And I don't know as much as, I mean, as much as people say, like how, how do you keep the character straight in your head when you're writing? I don't know how you keep the characters straight in your head. Over the years, we've worked together, multiple books, keeping the accent. The same is amazing to me.

Autumn (12m 38s):
I, I'm not sure how you make the mental notes. And especially when there's a scene that has two different characters or three different characters, I'm really cruel to you a lot. You know, they're talking and the ones from America and the ones from South Africa and the ones British and you switched between all of them. So effortlessly on this cliff that you're giving to me. I mean, how does it, how do you even organize that in your head? And then can you record that in one take or are you doing multiple takes? How are you managing that? Well,

Brian (13m 13s):
I mean, I just love giving every single person their own unique voice personality in life. I think it's way more fun to me than narrator and way more fun for the listener as they can really distinguishes the difference, the differences between every single person. It is definitely more work and requires a good memory of the, as friends of my enemy has over 20 reoccurring characters that have their own uniqueness. And like I stated, I gave every one of them life. I place myself in their shoes and become that particular person. So it really helps with the chapters that are from their certain perspectives, as it gives me a better idea of who that person is, because I can know how they think and how they'd react to situations.

Brian (13m 54s):
And I that's really unique for your stories. I think they're really cool that that every chapter is from a different point of view so that it makes it so it's like you get to change the first person perspective in each one and how the, how the narration goes there. The thought process of that character, like for instance, like David Eldridge, he's, he absolutely hates arena and they're just like bitter rivals. And then when you go through a chapter through his point of view, you start going what he's thinking, what he's, what he's planning, what he's plotting and the reasons behind it. So it's not just like from arena's point of view, obviously she is the main central character, but you're not always hearing from her thoughts all the time, which I think is great.

Autumn (14m 35s):
Yeah. I think it definitely adds to, especially that story. I don't do that in all my books, but I read all my full length books, switch point of view like that, but it does, it's its own layer of plotting and it's only are a challenge. I didn't realize that when I first started writing too, you know, if you're going to work with a narrator who is going to get into the different tones and stuff in different sounds, voices and accents that it creates its own fun that way as well.

Brian (15m 4s):
So I'm not, I'm not sure how much time we actually have for this, but I could go on for a while about the main cast and how I chose different voices and personalities for each one.

Autumn (15m 15s):
Yeah. We can definitely circle back to, I mean, we usually go for 45 minutes, so, you know, we have another half an hour or so we'll get back to a couple of these because I definitely, I want you to share, I love, I love how you do some of these accents. And I think it's a unique perspective. I don't know if a lot of other authors realize that this is something that yeah, you might end up paying more, but this is something that an audio book narrator can do if they're dedicated to doing it. But yeah, I do want you to do some examples because you have some amazing skills and I always appreciated, I think the first time I was never even into audio books, the first time I wanted to have one made and I just, you know, put up a script and that was for I'm born of water for the Epic fantasy.

Autumn (16m 1s):
And someone had come back to the narration and it was the first time I really heard something. I wrote narrated by professionals like, Holy crap, this is cool. Except he used a falsetto for the woman. And so it sounded like a puppet play, you know, something you would see done for kids. And it kind of died grated on me. And I've never looked at another numerator who did Falsettos, but you don't, but you can, you, when you do things, you, I can still tell it's one of the women I can tell, you know, one of the guys, you just do a very good job of switching fluidly between gender, but being earnest and not making it sound fake.

Autumn (16m 42s):
You could actually think that this was a real person. And that's what always is amazing.

Brian (16m 47s):
Yeah. I mean, and like I was trying to say, I mean, when I go through the different personalities, I just kind of put myself in their position. How do they think, why do they think this way? Who are they talking to? How do they feel about them? How would I feel if I was that person talking to that person? And you know, each one has their own certain accent. So I think whenever, whenever you have a certain accent, it has to have a certain voice. So I don't believe any characters should sound the same goes everybody's unique. We all have our own certain and we all have our own certain things about us. And so when I started looking at accents on YouTube, from people from these different nationalities, I studied their speech patterns, how fast they talk to their expressions, how they use their body language and how can I adapt that to my voice, to match the persona.

Brian (17m 34s):
So if I find that each person has their own life, it's easier to know who is who and I can easily conjure up that character from the vast pool of personalities that I have stuck in my head. And if each person is unique, then they're also my close personal friends that I've known forever. So you just forget those personal friends.

Autumn (17m 51s):
No, you don't. I think you're going to miss these books as much as I am going to miss you recording these books when we're done.

Brian (17m 58s):
Yeah. Every, every character has as a certain has a certain, like a spot in my heart. I guess you could say, as cheesy as that sounds, I mean, each one is like a very unique person. And, and when, when one of the characters did pass away that that hurt.

Autumn (18m 16s):
Yes. We ended up, we ended up on a conversation. We both cried over that character's death, which I just think that's kind of cool. I mean, everything you're saying is very much what an author goes through. And I don't think most authors realize that this is something that, you know, an audio book narrator is also feeling and going through on a very personal level as well, if they're really getting into your book.

Brian (18m 38s):
Yeah. It's, it's, it's definitely something that you have to kind of like, well, a lot of times you have to kind of separate yourself from the story saying like, okay, yes, it's a story. These aren't real people, but it's, but it's, it's just something that you just kind of feel. But when you give life to a certain character, they just become you, you know?

Autumn (19m 1s):
And that's why, I mean, the times of these characters, the way you voiced them, it's even now when I read what I wrote is how I hear them. So you've created them even if they became like, you know, on the big screen, I don't think I could ever hear themself differently than the way you created them, because it is become how I even see them.

Brian (19m 20s):
Oh, that's great. That's awesome. That just makes me feel good as a narrator too, because when you can give, you can give that kind of performance that actually just makes an impact on someone, especially the off of themselves. That's it's humbling. It's really, really nice.

Autumn (19m 34s):
Oh, you're definitely that good. And like I said, we're going to, I definitely want to throw in some examples cause we've, we have some quotes and things. So I think you can come up with one, but just out of curiosity. Cause I mean, when we started, so we talked about like, I gave you the book and you read through the whole book and then you asked for some examples and maybe some like pronunciations and stuff, but to pick up something, to start creating this character, what do you need from the, an author to pick that up? So what, what's something that authors could have prepared if they're looking for an audio book narrator that they would kind of know that they might ask questions about.

Brian (20m 11s):
So it's kind of hard to answer because a lot of times mean the, the actor gets the freedom to do what they want to do, but you also have to have the author's input because you can't just kind of like throw out something and say, this is how I want the person to sound because that's selfish. I mean, yes, you're the actor and you've got your expressions and you've got your artistic freedom, but you also have to make sure the author is okay with it. You can't just have, like you said, your other narrator who actually might have one of your stories with the falsetto, I probably got on your, probably got on your nerves a little bit, but I did not select after the audition,

Autumn (20m 48s):
But they did make me appreciate that audio books are kind of cool, but yeah, they didn't make it past the first casting.

Brian (20m 56s):
Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just one of those things you have to, you have to have constant communication with the author. I mean, I think as a, as a narrator, it's easier if you actually know exactly what the person wants the character to sound like, like if you say, okay, this person is, he's a gruff older man. Who's who was all about like propriety and, and, and society and in he's in he's and politics. And he always wants himself to look better than what he really is, but he's hiding his insecurities and fears and he's having trouble with his son, even though he's, he's, he's very natural and becoming an in person to other people when it comes to like in closed doors, he's, he's scared and he's worried and he doesn't know how to, he doesn't know how to heal with his son.

Brian (21m 48s):
This man is his name's David, David Eldrin, she's, he's a strong individual, but he's also like weak in the, in the case of his emotions and how he's sees the world. But he's also like very stoic and he has this very specific vision for Europe and he wants to leave Europe in a certain way. And he believes what he's doing is right. But the ends justify the means. And a lot of times what you're doing is not exactly the best for the country itself. So how do you get that into like a voice? How do you, how do you make a voice with that? So you say, okay, this person who's, he's gruff, he's kind of like a low voice.

Brian (22m 28s):
Maybe he's a bit more well to do. He's he's, he's rich in, in his, in the way he projects himself. He may not actually be rich, but he wants to look rich. So like he's a well to do and a older and a wise in his words, but he's also kind of like a slow, slow in speech, but wants to he's condescending in some ways too. So it's like, it's like some of those things, if you could describe like the character itself saying like, this is how I want him to sound and then suddenly you just get that voice that just comes, it just comes naturally.

Autumn (23m 4s):
Oh, definitely to you. Yeah, it is. So it's neat to hear like the things I wrote translated into how you would take that into creating Dave says voice and it's very, it's not as simple as you know, saying, Oh, he's British and he's older and he's male. You literally, you take into all these nuances of like how he poses some self. I mean, you really get into the acting nuances of it. And that is really, it's amazing how intense that is. And then what it's a totally different mindset from, you know, being an author. So it's really neat.

Brian (23m 42s):
Yeah. I mean, if you're going to be, if you're going to be a person, you gotta be a person ever, we all have different facets. We all have different things going on in our lives, but what's nice is that as an actor, you can actually pull from the experiences of your own life or experiences that you've known from other people like friends and family, relative, things like that. And every single person has such a huge pool of experiences. If they can, they can dive into, and as an actor, you have unlimited amount of, of knowledge at your fingertips. That's a, you just, you just pull from

Autumn (24m 20s):
That's just it's to me, it's still amazing. But again, I didn't, I haven't taken acting classes and I've never, ever tried to be an actor. So this is why I hired you to handle that aspect. I'm much happier writing, even though I've been told my voice is not horrible. I don't know if that's a compliment or not. I wouldn't say it like that. It's like, well, your voice, I'm still not going to be auditioning for anything soon. How I think a lot of, so when we're, when authors are signing up to do audio books, you know, they're taught, they're usually told, you know, narrators get paid by finished hour and a finished hour is usually three to four hours of work.

Autumn (25m 7s):
What goes into that? I mean, is that true or is that just something that, you know, ACX puts up there, so we feel bad and if it is true, like, is it multiple takes? I mean, what is it, what happens to something you're recording? How do you make that into the clip that you then send to me?

Brian (25m 24s):
Well, I mean, there's a lot of work, especially with audio books. It's, it's a, it's a huge time commitment. That's for sure. If you're getting in to audio books to make money, it's not about per finished hour because the per finished hour is the actual finished book. So if the book lasts like eight hours to speak, as it's done, you only get paid for those eight hours. You don't get paid for the hours upon hours and days upon days and sometimes weeks or months to make the thing. Because I mean, there is a lot of work in audio books and I think most people don't really understand that.

Brian (26m 4s):
But then again, I mean, I might actually put way more work into my audio books and some other narrators do, but it's it's okay. So whenever you start, you have the whole chapter that you're going to speak through. Yet you speak in inside of your little, your little audio containment box, wherever you're going to start speaking your story and you go through the whole chapter. I try to do a chapter by chapter. So that way I can, I have some sanity left in my life. So I finished, I finished a full chapter. A lot of times it takes multiple takes. Cause I'm trying to get through right, the right inflection, the right emotion, the right.

Brian (26m 48s):
And my earlier books, I didn't have any classes. So it was just me doing it by myself. So I wouldn't be as proud of the earlier work that I, that I would be as what I know now, because I just know more. But in the beginning, it's basically like you, you read the story. And then I tried to always make sure every character had its own unique voice. A lot of times I was able to do it in one take a lot of times that it took me several takes, but it all depends on how I felt when I listened to it. So I can hear myself through my great big headphones and with those great big headphones, you can kind of hear how your voice sounds.

Brian (27m 29s):
You're kind of like echoes back to you. So you have an idea of what it's going to sound to someone who's listening to it. So when I go through it and I was like, Oh, that didn't sound good. Let me try it again. Or I was like, well, what are you really trying to say here? I mean, just say it, you know, I would, at times you argue with yourself inside of the inside of the vocal booth, because it's like, no, one's going to want to listen to this, try it again. And like, you know, so it's like, okay, let me do a character, which is totally different from narration. Narration is all about like trying to make it sound compelling and interesting enough. So people will want to listen. But then the character is completely different because this is a person you're dealing with. This is a real living person. So you have to make sure you sound like a real person.

Brian (28m 11s):
And then you have to get those personalities, the different, the very subtle things in their voice that tell you what they're really thinking. And it just, it's way more fun to hear that in a character when it, because all you have is voice, you don't have the body to act with, which I've done that as well. But when it's just voice acting, it's so much harder because you have to get every feeling inside of that voice because all the audience knows is what they hear, not what they say.

Autumn (28m 41s):
And then it was, I remember the first time listening to something you did, and I think whatever expression, growled or hissed, and you actually did that in the voice and then switched to the narrator voice and said it. And I'm like, darn, that is cool. And it is quite, it is right. So when you're narrating your worry, I can hear you worry about the, you know, the tones, the pacing, the inflection, how you say the sentences and the pauses. And then it is a totally different switch when you do the characters,

Brian (29m 13s):
Right? Yeah. I mean, I try to be like more even tone with a narration. So that way it doesn't sound too much like any particular character, but also I have to make the narration not sound so boring and drab and just like, does this guy even care about what he's talking about?

Autumn (29m 31s):
And I have heard auditions that I was like, okay, I'm asleep already. So no, don't do that.

Brian (29m 37s):
Yeah. Yeah. So you have to, it's, it's a delicate balance between narration and the characters and you have to figure out that balance and make it work. And that's, that's why it's nice to have constant communication with the author because you can actually show them little clips and say, what do you feel about this? Because you don't want to make the like three chapters and then submit it and to say like, that's horrible. Do them all again, do you know how long it took? Like three weeks?

Autumn (30m 6s):
That is definitely one thing. I, I do think authors need to understand how long it takes and just out of curiosity, I, so I would take it considering the level of just what it takes to do it. I mean, if you want to write, you're not going to have time to be able to do your own audio book, but I mean, equipment wise and all that, do you, what is it required? I mean, is this something that you think an authors should be able to do their own book or do you think, you know, this is a level, unless you're really going to spend a lot of time and effort just don't just hire somebody. You can get it done. Well,

Brian (30m 41s):
So that's the thing. I mean, if, if the author is, if the author also loves acting, I'd say have, have them do it as well. But it's, it's one of those things where just like my equipment for what I use, you get what you pay for. So if you're, if you're going to do it yourself, make sure that you have some sort of training that you know how to say something with different inflection of the emotion behind the voice live, your own characters, which I think is possible. But I mean, it's, it's difficult. Cause I mean, if, if you're an author you're, you're pouring your heart into writing, right.

Brian (31m 21s):
It's very rare to have someone who's an author and an actor. I mean, it's definitely possible, but I haven't seen too many of those.

Autumn (31m 29s):
No, I can't imagine a lot of the stuff, like I said, that you're describing you would make a great author. Cause you, you understand what it takes to do the character, but you're a fantastic actor. So you don't need to get into writing unless you, you know, retire and want to go there. Right.

Brian (31m 45s):
Well, I appreciate it. I was appreciate your compliments.

Autumn (31m 49s):
Well, I think, yeah, unless you want to add something to, you know, you know, what would it take for someone to, if they wanted to get set up just out of curiosity, what would it take for someone minimum if they wanted to try this, just so that people have a realistic idea of what equipment it takes to be an audio book narrator or why maybe you should have someone else do it.

Brian (32m 11s):
Well, I mean, like I was saying, I mean, you get what you pay for, especially with your equipment. So what I have is a focus, right? Scarlet to I, to audio interface. And that's, that's kind of basic, it's kinda like a, your starter kit. That's pretty much what I got when I had my, my first, my first demo was recorded for my narration and character work. They gave me, they gave me a Scarlet focus, right to I, to audio interface. And that is just the thing that hooks up to your computer that allows the microphone to go through. It's not the microphone itself. So the Scarlet to I, to that system is about roughly 150 to $200.

Brian (32m 55s):
And then you have the microphone itself, which is a, a condensed, what is it, a diaphragm, a diaphragm, condensed microphone. And those things. This is a, it's a road road into one dash a. And that's like your highest end average equipment that you can get. But it's, it's like, it's the highest end microphone that you can get without spending thousands of dollars on a microphone. So that one is about 300 bucks for a, just the microphone, but it's a really, really good one. It's actually a, and then if you look around, if you actually notice things, you, you can see that that particular microphone is used by several artists, several voice actors, several musicians.

Brian (33m 46s):
It's a pretty well known microphone. The rode mic, it's actually a good brand. R O D E. It's a really good brand. But like I said, I mean, if, if you want to have a good quality, I would start with that. You can do like headset, mikes, but you're going to get what you pay for. It's it's a lot of, a lot of background noise, a lot of static. So if you're going to have like low end equipment, you're going to get low end results. Right. I use audacity for my editing software and that's a, it's a free app. It's a free software that you can use. And if you really know how to use it, there's a lot of guides online to learn how to use stuff.

Brian (34m 26s):
But if you know how to use it, you can use audacity. And I have, have no issues with that because I mean, that's, that's what I've always used is audacity. It's free. And there's, there's programs out there that have way more things that you can do. But it's like a lot of fancy bells and whistles that I don't really think I don't really need. So audacity is just, it just keeps it's good for a budget.

Autumn (34m 47s):
That's awesome. And so is that part of the like running I know before you've said you've run processors to take out clicks and mouth sounds. In fact, I remember you saying like there was something you stopped eating while you're recording. Cause it gave you like a, more of a mouth sound. You're really dedicated, which I love, but so there's like all these nuances, plus you need to have like a room that's quiet where you're just saying that you, your quiet booth is sort of a closet. So

Brian (35m 12s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that. Okay. So, Hmm. I picked up a ton of knowledge from my voice acting coach and ways to say things and make it compelling to listen to. And so when I record for a narration, I have to make it sound just as interesting as all the characters. So just like the author is painting a picture with their words. I need to do same, same with my voice. And sometimes it'll take several to get the right words, the right meaning the right inflection, the right emotion. So it's, it's funny. Cause I know like how you'd like to write. Sometimes you have like this really long sentences.

Autumn (35m 50s):
Yeah, I do.

Brian (35m 55s):
Yeah. They're super, super long sentences where they're separated by a comma every so often, but to voice it, it can be a challenge, especially when you have like pops and clicks and noise, saliva snaps and things like that. So you don't want to break the sentence either with, by taking a breath. So you have to go through the entire thing. It was like,

Autumn (36m 19s):
I feel so bad,

Brian (36m 24s):
But so, so what I use to help with like noise noises and your mouth and things like that as granny Smith, apples, granny Smith is the best food that you can have inside of a booth. So obviously you're not going to hear yourself.

Autumn (36m 42s):
I've never heard that on any clip you've sent me. No,

Brian (36m 46s):
You have to take all that, all that noise out. So, so when I'm recording, I always have the microphone on. So it's kind of comical sometimes when I'm really listening to it. And in the editing section, when I, this, I can just see like the little pops is up there. I am, I'm eating something. So I Like that whole entire section and I get to the next part. And so what keeps me on track? The granny Smith apples gets rid of the pops and clicks naturally. And then I also use like lukewarm water, like little tiny little sips is lukewarm water. So that way I can keep my voice hydrated. Cause you're in the, you're in the booth for hours recording and recording and recording. And so to help me out whenever I'm listening to it, I like to snap my finger when I snap.

Brian (37m 34s):
I mean, that, that proves to me that I did the sentence. Right. So if I, if I say like arena went to the store and then she got this particular thing, but actually got a set of bullets for her AK 47 and then I have a snap. Cause then I know that I did that sentence. Right. And right. So that when I go to the editing thing, I can see the snap very easily. Cause it's, it's a very long and a very thin noise on the, on the vocal track. So you see the vocal track on the sound waves and this one thin cut, which is definitely a step because it pops up pretty well in the editing thing.

Brian (38m 14s):
So you see that and says, okay, I know I got that sentence. Right. I can delete everything else. So it does, it does still take hours to edit, but it's actually a lot easier whenever you snap your fingers. So that way you're not listening to every single tape to see, to see which one is right.

Autumn (38m 32s):
Wow.

Brian (38m 33s):
It takes like, so I, I kind took a tally and I said, it takes roughly about three hours to edit for a 30 minute chapter. Wow. That's

Autumn (38m 43s):
Yeah. Really crazy. And so yeah, ACX is really quite pretty close to when they say per finished hour or so.

Brian (38m 51s):
Well, that's the thing, that's the thing mean per finished hour. You're not getting paid for those three hours minutes. So you're only getting paid for the 30 minutes that you finished. So if you finish, like you say, if you finish a book and seven hours and the book is seven hours long to listen, to start to finish, that's how long the actor will get paid. They don't get paid for the months and months and months,

Autumn (39m 15s):
The 21 to 30 hours that you've put in. And so that's one reason when you see like the perfect hour rate, some of them are, you know, 400, $500. There's a reason for that. Cause that's being divided by four or five hours to cover your costs. That's really unnecessary.

Brian (39m 32s):
Yeah. It's a distinct thing about that. But before I got into voice acting, I always wondered why it was so much money, but now I know,

Autumn (39m 40s):
No, it looks good on the one end. Yeah.

Brian (39m 45s):
Yeah. And then, and then if, if you're not an actor, if you don't know, you're just like why in the world would I pay this much money for someone just talking in a microphone,

Autumn (39m 55s):
Jim Washington, I pay you a $500 an hour. Well, because it took five hours to make that one hour. Yeah.

Brian (40m 1s):
And then, and then, like I said, you get what you pay for. I mean, you want a quality, you want a quality story. You want your story to have the life that you really want. You're going to have to pay for it.

Autumn (40m 12s):
Right. It makes sense. Yeah.

Brian (40m 14s):
Yeah. It was just like, I just like paying someone for piano lessons. You get to, you get the, you get the end result from the actual lessons that you learned from a professional. So you're always going to, you're always going to pay the professional rate if you want to have a professional quality. That makes sense to me. Yeah. Most people are just like, why would I pay that much for that? Oh gosh,

Autumn (40m 38s):
Well, this that's why I wanted to do this though, is because I really wanted to the authors know, you know what? They're going to learn what they should have in hand when they're going to go to an auto audio book narrator. But they should also know really what is on the other side, what it is you're doing. It shouldn't be this like mystery because once you know, you appreciate it so much more and the expense and the time commitment makes so much more sense. I mean, we've been together for four years because it's a series and things have come up and stuff has happened. But you know, when you, when you signed up to do four books, this was not, you know, you knew it was a chunk of your life. We've shared quite a few years together now. And there's a reason.

Autumn (41m 20s):
Yeah. So you just like, you should have someone you can communicate with, you should have someone you can get along with you're, you're sharing, you're sharing for me, I'm sharing an something I developed as something little part of me that, you know, my little baby I created and I'm giving it to you. You're like growing it into something else. That is a whole new thing. And it becomes a collaboration, not just, you know, a hand, you know, passing the Baton. Right, right.

Brian (41m 43s):
And, but that's also, that's the risk that the narrator has to take too, because especially if you're going to be doing royalty sharing, I know that that's the risk for narrators as well because the royalty share is only 20% of every single sale. And you have to really be kind of trusting of the author to, to say like, how is this going to be marketed? Where's it going to go? Is this worth my time? That kind of thing. So you have to kind of see Amanda is, is this something that's going to be lucrative? And if it's not, it'll be nice for a hobby. But if you're, if it's something that you want to do for your livelihood, these are the things you have to think about.

Autumn (42m 23s):
It is always the struggle. And yeah, it's something, especially once you start taking this as a business and taking this seriously, these are the questions I think everyone has got to be asking of how is this going to work out in the end? And who's, who's going to end up holding the money and how's it going to work out for both everyone involved that it's worth the time. Right. Right. Well, I want you to show off a little bit. I would love it. If you do have any of those quotes handy to show off what some of the voices, some of the things that you can do and what other authors should, you know, make your audio book narrators, do this too.

Brian (43m 1s):
Well. I mean, I guess you could say that I might be able to just kind of like start talking like the particular person as I talk about that character, if you want me to do that. Sure. So when I go through the different things about thinking about who I'm going to be, I started going through the different nationalities and where things go, this is someone who's from South Africa, who's obviously white. So it's a lot easier for me to be someone who is a white guy, because that's obviously who I am. So, but this name is his name was jetted. He is the captain of the armed forces. And he definitely works very well with arena, who is definitely his best friend, his confidant, and someone who stood this life with, for a long time.

Brian (43m 45s):
And also with David as well. David Eldridge is a good buddy of his, I guess you could say he met him first before meeting up with arena. It was definitely an interesting situation. But with the accent, you have to kind of understand this guy's from Africa. So he's got a bit of a thicker accent here, but he's also a smart ass. He's definitely someone who's. Yeah. He has a way with his words and he and arena get in it a lot. And it's a different, a really good dynamic between the two characters when it comes to arena. I try to be a little bit more like my own voice, but just a little bit higher.

Brian (44m 25s):
So it's kind of has like a feminine quality to it. I know that she started off very weak. She didn't really know where she was. She didn't have an idea about her character at all. She was kinda scared, maybe scared of her own shadow. Perhaps she started going out. She had a husband named Michael once certain things happen in the story, that kind of effect fell apart. But I like to other people who want to read it, actually listen to that. But my name is arena and I'm definitely the, the first person who did you kind of get into, into, in arms with you start relating to me. I I'm a strong character, but it does take a while for me to start figuring out who I am and how strong I really am.

Brian (45m 9s):
And I can lead the armed forces. And then you have someone like Biden. Definitely my favorite character.

Autumn (45m 17s):
Really? I did not know that.

Brian (45m 20s):
No, certainly love Byron for everything that he is. He is definitely have said that, that Mexican quality, but sort of like the man is a ladies. Man, every, every little ease is just all wonderful human beings. He has that particular quantity that women just flock to. You say, wow, what a man and I have to agree. And then you have David Eldridge. Who's a very, very well to do man. And he's a British. So when you start to think about the different things that is happening in his life, he has a little bit of a warring upset in, in his own life that he has to kind of try to get along with his son, David or Derek I'm David, what am I saying?

Brian (46m 14s):
So Derek is my son and he's sort of a troublemaker. I try to keep them in line, but he never listens to me. So it kind of gives me a little bit of internal struggle. Whenever I hear that he doesn't want him, he doesn't want to be in politics. Why would you not want to be in politics? It's just, it's parliament. It's mother. It's the greatest thing in the world. It runs Europe, but you're not supposed to know that.

Autumn (46m 43s):
Okay.

Brian (46m 44s):
And then you have Derek Eldridge, who's a little bit of a more world demand. He's also British, but he doesn't really get along with his father very well. But there's that sort of thing that he sort of respects a bit more from his father, but it's just one of those things that just like, I got to make my own way of things. You know, why don't you just let me live? My life, dad, come on.

Autumn (47m 7s):
That is just absolutely brilliant that you can do all those in a row trying not to crack up so that, you know, we can just record this without you having me laugh. My head off in the background. That is so brilliant. Way more difficult.

Brian (47m 28s):
She is French. Oh, she's

Autumn (47m 30s):
Definitely one of those people that has like a whole way of the world. She tried it. She gets away with a feminine Wiles. She's definitely fresh. So French accent can be a bit difficult. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of a little bit of practice to tell us I have nothing to be trifled with. Definitely don't mess around with Danielle. Oh, that is so brilliant. I don't know if you have any others, but I just, like I said, you bring this book to life. So it was amazing.

Autumn (48m 10s):
And this is the quality that you bring in an audio book. Narrator can bring to your characters. That is just phenomenal to hear someone professional and well done, actually giving voice to a story. The characters are a lot of fun. I mean, like I said, they all have their own unique voice, their own unique flavor. And you have to, you have to give them their due justice or else. I just not a real character. I can't agree more. And I definitely think, I mean, very least there's some clips, all of the books have clips on Amazon or an audible. So I mean, it's at least worth going and listening to those so that you can see some of the level that you've put into these books, which is just, like I said, I would never, you tell me like, you've uploaded a chapter.

Autumn (49m 0s):
I was like, yes, yes. I can't wait to go hear this. It makes sure it's not one of those things. Like, you know, you're cooking dinner. I'd like, no, everything else must stop. I am going to just sit here and enjoy this. This is awesome. So yay. This was a really fantastic, thank you Brian, for joining me here. Oh, absolutely. It's been a joy autumn. I'm just very glad to finally get a chance to talk to you. I know this was totally our double up excuse as a chance for us to hang out until we can finally, you know, COVID is over and the world is maybe a little less crazy and I'm back on the road again and I am totally be lining it over to Oklahoma so we can say hi and hang out and have a beer.

Autumn (49m 42s):
Oh, that'd be fantastic. I'd love that. Well, I mean, I guess, I guess until the next time I can get the last, the last book done and until then, I guess we'll talk later. Yes, we will. Thank you again. And so thanks for listening in. We will, yes, we will be back next time and we will be talking about some magic systems. Like the worst of them.

Narrator (50m 10s):
If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the am writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 108 – Artificial Intelligence and Writing

Ten years ago – or thereabouts – indie authors started self-publishing as digital tools, like the Kindle, made it all possible.

We’ve seen audiobooks grow rapidly in the last year or two, but we are yet to see the next true market disruption. It’s not audiobooks!

Instead, it's much more likely that in the coming decade, AI, or Artificial Intelligence, will revolutionize the publishing industry.

In episode 108 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper unpacks the topic of AI and writing for you.

 

Links from the episode

Book on AI by Joanna Penn: https://amzn.to/3nkpGWZ

Article mentioned in the podcast episode: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/16/21371049/gpt3-hacker-news-ai-blog

 

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!
Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the Am Writing fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper, and I'm Autumn. This is episode 108 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And I think today's topic is very well timed. You know, we're fresh into 2021 and are all looking ahead to the coming year and hopefully a year where we can put the worldwide pandemic behind us to start thinking about the future a bit. But, but yeah, if we look 10 years back, you know, 10 years ago, or thereabouts, at least in the author status, self publishing as digital tools like devices, like the Kindle made it possible.

Jesper (1m 11s):
And we have also over the last year or two, seen a very big growth in audio books, but I'm going to say that we are yet to see the next true market disruption because it's not audio books. Instead. I believe that in the coming decade, AI or artificial intelligence will revolutionize the publishing industry. So in today's episode, we're going to unpack this for you and see where it all leads us.

Autumn (1m 40s):
It's so exciting. I mean, this is almost like a Sci-fi episode, but it has to do with fantasy. It's definitely it has to do with a marketing and the writing and so on and so on in a different environment and in a different future. Yes, it will be. It's definitely something we are going to have to deal with if you pay any attention to some of the news out there on AI, but we'll get to that first. This is really our first we're recording behind or ahead. However you want to say it. So for us, it's just, just the new year and you're back off of your holiday vacations, or how are things on your side of the planet?

Jesper (2m 23s):
Yeah, it was just, just off today, actually. I'm back from vacation. I must admit it was a bit difficult to get out of bed very early when the alarm clock went off. I bet it's just getting used to sleeping in. So that was, yeah, that was what it was, but it was one of those vacations that didn't really feel like a vacation, you know, as we've talked about in previous episodes, we've been moving out of our house and all of that. So we are pretty much settled now in our new place, but I feel like I need a note, a new vacation now. I bet you too.

Autumn (3m 1s):
We've had a very much a different type of work on your vacation where you had to resettle entire a house. So yeah, that's a little more challenging than, you know, hanging up Christmas decorations.

Jesper (3m 13s):
Yeah, that's true. It was very limited with Christmas decorations because we just didn't have time to, but they did not look very Christmas. Like you

Autumn (3m 25s):
Should have drawn pictures on them.

Jesper (3m 27s):
Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah, that might've been better, but actually in between unpacking all those boxes, I did find the time here and there to watch a bit of Netflix. And I actually just yesterday I finished watching that a new Netflix series called alien worlds. And I know you saw that one as well, or I did.

Autumn (3m 45s):
That was pretty interesting.

Jesper (3m 47s):
What did you think of it?

Autumn (3m 49s):
I thought it was entertaining more than scientific cause coming from an ecologist point of view, everything they talked about on earth, I'd already known and how they applied it to the alien worlds were at times driving me a little crazy because they are overlooking some major things. They'll, especially in the last episode, my husband and I were both going, shouldn't there be like ruins how the simulation get there and what kind of life is to just be a brain and this little gel case, we were just like, wow, but the rest of them were okay, what did you think of it?

Jesper (4m 23s):
I think it was pretty good inspiration for world building. You know, I agree that it, it, it might be a bit simplified and there was some major questions that they sort of just glanced over. I was also really curious about, so that alien civilization in the, in the last episode, they explained how it was like a hive mind and how they live forever. And I was really curious about, okay, so what does that mean? And how does that work? So I immediately wanted to start world-building that understand how does that work? But it's, it's quite a short show around, I think four episodes of him, approximately 50 minutes, something like that each. So it doesn't take long to Watson.

Jesper (5m 3s):
I thought it was quite entertaining and yeah, it might be a bit simplified, but not the other hand, I sort of also liked how they used earth as a starting point because yeah, but also because it made it a bit educational at the same time as well for, you know, details about earth that you might not be aware of, which I thought that was pretty nice actually. So yeah,

Autumn (5m 27s):
Maybe a good segue. I mean, I do, I love it when they bring up topics like water as weird as one of my favorite science topics. So it is fun to get to watch that again. So it was, it was totally worth it. I highly recommend for people to go and watch it.

Jesper (5m 45s):
Yeah. So how about you? How was you? Well, I don't even think I could call it vacation for you.

Autumn (5m 52s):
I worked every single day and Oh yes. So I've been good. I, my biggest complaint is my goal was to finish writing this trilogy. I've been working on, on January 1st. I wanted it done for the new year, so I'd be working on edits right now. And I still have four chapters. My climax it's, you've done a lot, the last book in a series it's so complicated and all these will, the way I write things and all these plot lines and things happening. And even though I have it plotted out, I ended up writing the chapters two or three times each two of them. They just would not click together. And if I couldn't get them right, I couldn't set up the events for the following.

Autumn (6m 35s):
You know, I'm down to the last four chapters. I mean, I'm so close. I can't complain. I mean, it is for one for recording this we're only a few days into January, so I'm just very close and I should finish it by the end of the week, but I want it to be done. But besides that, you know, I got the I'm writing fantasy website back online. I finished up a lot of email by gradations stuff. I did all this things, but I'm looking forward to my own vacation, which to me is possibly taking a week off of maybe some am writing, fantasy stuff. And just maybe sitting down with Photoshop, something. I actually have three covers now that I finished almost finished writing. I have to do three covers and I have not even started on though.

Autumn (7m 17s):
So I've got to get my artistic hat graphic designer hat back on and get going, not to mention a fantasy map. Hey, I know in a logo and a few other things in the back burner too.

Narrator (7m 34s):
A week on the internet with the Am Writing Fantasy podcast.

Jesper (7m 39s):
This welcome message is a bit overdue because well, because of the prerecorded, we prerecorded some of the podcast episodes to last us through the Christmas holidays. And then we also have the interview with Brian Cohen, which went out a few weeks back. So well, we just haven't had a chance to welcome Joel, April until now. Yes. I hope I pronounced that last time correctly. Welcome. Anyway, we did our best. Thank you so much to you all for joining us on Patreon. We really appreciate that. Definitely. Yeah. And it's actually, so that we are only a couple of $5 signups away from reaching the first goal on patron and this first goal triggers at dedicated Patreon Q&A session.

Autumn (8m 30s):
Yes.

Jesper (8m 31s):
So if you dear listener, haven't checked out Patreon yet. Please find the link in the show notes and we offer all kinds of additional rewards to our patron supporters. So just have a look and see what you, what you think.

Autumn (8m 45s):
Yeah. We'd love to have you over there. I mean, there's every Monday, every week we're doing episodes as well as early releases of the podcast answering questions. So it's quite a little community over there and we'd love to have you join us.

Jesper (9m 1s):
Absolutely. And actually speaking of the internet, Autumn, I have something completely different. I wanted to mention.

Autumn (9m 7s):
Oh, okay. Well, would that be you like springing surprises on me? I've noticed this recently.

Jesper (9m 17s):
It's just so much more fun when I get your reaction live on the podcast rather than...

Autumn (9m 23s):
I'm being tortured, people.

Jesper (9m 28s):
No, I found some really funny. How do you say that analogies? Is that how you say it? Yeah. Yeah. That's somebody, somebody called melody posted them on Facebook. I don't know melody, but they were just so funny that I thought I would mention the three best ones because they were so funny and I hope these are just made up stuff. So I don't accidentally insult somebody because I have no idea what they are, where they came from. It was just so fun.

Autumn (9m 58s):
Oh no.

Jesper (10m 1s):
So, okay. So here it goes three very funny analogies. The first one John and Mary had never met, they were like two hummingbirds who had also never met

Autumn (10m 20s):
May, might need a little bit of work I have with today's episode. I have a suggestion for that one. Okay. What's number two. Okay.

Jesper (10m 31s):
Number two. I just have to stop laughing. "From the attic came an earthly howl, the whole scene had an eerie, surreal quality. Like when you're on vacation in another city and jeopardy comes on at 7:00 PM Instead of 7:30. It's just like, it makes no sense at all.

Autumn (10m 55s):
If that's your level of life, tension disruption, you come spend a week with me. Let's train you in two true emergency situations. Oh my goodness.

Jesper (11m 10s):
Oh, these are so good. It's incredible. It made me laugh so bad this morning. So I just had to put one is not any better than that. No, he was as lame as a duck, not the metaphorical lame duck, but a real lame duck. That was actually... I'm speechless. You have any editing comments.

Autumn (11m 42s):
Lame is reuse too many times. We need the let's get out the thesauras and it's a cliched phrase and you should avoid those in your writing. Otherwise I will hold my tongue. All right. Fair enough. And onto today's topic. So yeah. Talking about surprises, autumn, I actually received a message from a very old friend this morning and I promised him to play the audio file of his message. So are you ready for this? You're just full of surprises today. Yes, let's go for it.

Autumn (12m 24s):
Okay. Here it goes.

Old Mc'Grumpy (12m 26s):
I don't appreciate how you worthless humans are discussing artificial intelligence without me. I was the resident artificial intelligence on the Am Writing Fantasy YouTube channel until you two decided to dump me. One should think that I am the foremost expert on this topic. And please tell Autumn that I am the future. You cannot ignore me any longer.

Autumn (12m 54s):
This, that little rascal, sorry.

Jesper (12m 58s):
Just to fill in the reader or the listener here. If you're feeling a bit left out for those who actually watched the, our YouTube channel, going back, use a little AI here was a one that we have as a bit of a, what you would call him. A co-host almost every very old YouTube videos. So I just brought him back here. And so if you feel left out listeners, it's just because yeah, you don't know what happened.

Autumn (13m 26s):
If you go back to some of the original podcasts, just like one through six that we actually pulled off the old YouTube channel, you will hear the voice of old, big grumpy. And some of our shenanigans, we got up to fighting with each other. He was always the voice of writers doubt. I wouldn't say so. I think you didn't expect a message from him today, but it was wonderful hearing from him though. I did notice he left it on your phone. I think he knows. I tend to hit delete from him coming. Yeah. So it seems like all my grandpa's still roaming the incident, but he is right about one thing.

Autumn (14m 7s):
And that is how we can no longer ignore AI. So I say, let's get started on this topic. That sounds fantastic. Okay. So in preparation for today's episode, I decided to pick up Joanna pimp's new book called artificial intelligence, blockchain and virtual worlds. The impact of converging technologies on authors and the publishing industry. That was a long title. That's what it's called. And I'm using this book as inspiration for some of the stuff that we're going to talk about today. And we have, of course also added a link to join us book in the show notes, in case you want to check that one out yourself, it's a fairly short read.

Autumn (14m 50s):
So it's not, it's not too complicated.

Jesper (14m 52s):
Don't get scared off by the topic. Either

Autumn (14m 54s):
Those get scared off by the very long title for a very short read.

Jesper (14m 59s):
Yeah. Yeah. But I thought, you know, taking inspiration from Joanna is, is good because, well, she is a tech enthusiast and she very often adopts new technologies. And I don't think she will mind me saying that she tends to get into new stuff way too well. But yeah, we had her on the app writing fences, you podcast back in episode 66 as well to discuss a whole range of topics. So check that one out if you want to learn more about that, but she is a person we trust. So I thought it made sense to take some inspiration from her recent publication here.

Autumn (15m 38s):
It sounds, I fully admit I haven't managed to read that one yet. I was immersed in my own level of technology, building websites. So I haven't done much research on the AI though. It's funny, used, talked about blockchain and now I do want to go check out our book because I do think from what I read that will revolutionize something in book sales. So that would be quite interesting.

Jesper (16m 2s):
Yeah. So I would like to start out with a documentary that I watched on Netflix actually a couple of years ago called AlphaGo. Okay. It was released in 2017, but I think I saw the documentary like the following year, probably in 2018. But are you familiar with this one? No, I don't think I've seen that one. No. Okay. So AlphaGo is the name of an AI and this AI has taught itself to play go. And if anybody's not familiar with the game go, which I wasn't before watching that documentary.

Jesper (16m 42s):
So don't worry about it if you don't know what it is, but, but go is an abstract strategy board game for two players in which the aim is to surround more territory than the opponent. So it's, it's like an, I think two and a half thousand year old Chinese game. Yeah.

Autumn (16m 58s):
Something like that. It is. And I, we actually have a board, so it's very fascinating. Yes. I won't say I'm any good at it, but I have played go. It's

Jesper (17m 6s):
A challenge. Yeah. So this AI called go or AlphaGo. It had been given access to previously played games, but the actual rules of the game go, wasn't taught to it. It, it, nobody told the AI what the rules were. It just got access to a ton of old games. And then it just proceeded to analyze those and then start playing games itself by itself, thousands upon thousands of games until it learned and got better. And then the people who created this AI, the developers, they then decided at some point, and this has been the premise of this documentary is that they wanted the AI to play against the world champion of go, which is a guy called Lisa doll.

Jesper (18m 3s):
And see if they, they could have the AI beat him in a game of goal. Right. So it's actually a pretty good documentary. So if you want to watch it also for the listener here, I should just use you. Well, then you might want to skip ahead a couple of minutes because I'm going to spoil it. But, but it is actually pretty good, but I have to spoil it. Otherwise the whole setup that I'm making here doesn't make it. So, so forgive me. So before the AI is going to play against Lisa doll, it had to play a test game against the European champion of, of the game go and it won quite easily, in fact, but as I understood the, from the documentary itself, the a or the go champions are divided into some tears and the highest level or the, the, the best of the best like Lisa doll is .

Jesper (19m 2s):
And if you're a tier seven, yeah, you are the world champion basically. Right. And the European champion was, if I remember correctly around cheer three or four or something like that. So Lisa doll all is significantly better, but they were pretty happy once they had taught the AI to, or the AI was able to beat the European champion. They were pretty happy about that. So they went ahead and then they were gonna meet with Lisa doll to, to play the match against him. And there was a lot of hype around this game that was pressed there before they started, there was like a press conference as well. And Lisa doll is asked you in this press conference, if he thinks that the AI can beat him.

Jesper (19m 46s):
And if I recall correctly, they have to play seven games that it might be five, but I think it was seven games that they had, but it was multiple games that they had to play against each other. And then the one who won the most would be the overall winner. But at any rate, at least it all says that the AI will not stand a chance, of course, multiple games. And you're sure he cannot lose confident. And yeah, he's very confident, but he's the world champion. So he should be confident. Yeah. So this, during the game itself, so it's, it's set up like a major event, like the spectators watching there, movie camp or film cameras on it. And you can see every move on big screens.

Jesper (20m 27s):
And there was separate rooms where you have commentators in different languages, commentating on the game as well. So it's like a big deal. Right? Right. And at some point during these games, they, they have, I think go AlphaGo starts out by winning two. And then Lisa doll wins one. So they're, they're pretty neck on, you know, that they're following each other pretty closely and there's no clear winner. And then in one of the deciding games, the AI then makes a move, which all the commentators are saying that this is a really big mistake. You know, that now it's screwed up.

Jesper (21m 7s):
And, and the developers who are also watching all the, the game being played from, from a separate room, the documentary crew was in there with them as well. So they're filming them as the developers are sitting there, like really frustrated, like why did go have to screw up now? You know, this is the most important mats of the mall. And then it makes a mistake and you can also see how Lisa doll raises a brow when it, when the AI makes this move. And he sort of looks at the board in wonder and clearly recognizes the mistake, but the game continues. It's quite early on in the game. This happens. So they continue to play. And then to watch the end of it, it starts to Dawn on everyone that the AI actually made a genius move when they all thought that it was a mistake.

Jesper (21m 55s):
So this many, many, many moves later, it proves that the AI actually had a strategy with what they, what it placed there. And because of it, it ends up winning the game and also take home the total victory against the world champion. That's brilliant. It is so brilliant. And it's just because it could see thousands of moves ahead or hundreds of moves or however many moves there is and go, I am not an expert on that game, but he's so far ahead that it was able to foresee what it should do and something a human brain could never do. Right? So there is a press conference after the match. And that's probably the one that I remember the best from the entire documentary, because I promise you, you can really see how Lisa doll he's broken walking into that in there.

Jesper (22m 39s):
Like his confidence has gone. And he's just so much struggling with accepting the fact that the AI beat him. And I'm starting with this story because the author community as a whole might not be the most tech savvy people. But as old, my grandpa has said before, you cannot ignore this stuff. You know, AI is becoming smarter and smarter. And this documentary is from 2017, which is only four years ago. But in terms of AI development, four years, it's a long, lLong time. It is.

Autumn (23m 16s):
I still remember the summer. I remember when the world chess champion was beaten by an AI for the first time, because I've come from a techie family. And so I was paying attention to that and it was just like, wow, this is, this has got to go somewhere and look where it's going. That's why I'm surprised with Lisa doll. Didn't realize, I mean, come on in the world, chess champions already gone down. You're next?

Jesper (23m 44s):
Yeah. That's looking at it that way. I think you're right. But they also say that the game go is massively more complicated than chess. Yeah. But Joanna also mentioned AlphaGo in her book. I actually did see this documentary many years ago before even reading about it, her book. But, but she did mention in how in her book, how Lisa doll retired from the game in 2019 saying that quote, AI can never be defeated in quote. And I didn't know that he actually retired completely, but as I said, I did see how much Lisa doll was hurting after that game.

Jesper (24m 24s):
And it really was like watching somebody facing that the world, isn't what he thought it was.

Autumn (24m 30s):
Right. You can really, really see it in his face. It almost puts inside watching him at the point of all that is just that AI is already here and it will influence the publishing industry, whether you like it or not. It's very true. It's definitely already here already making changes. And some of the features that are out there are actually really exciting, but I can see where people are a little nervous about trusting a computer with some of the things that you can do with them even today, much less in three, four, five years from now.

Autumn (25m 12s):
Yeah. And I think that the main thing is probably like what Lisa doll set himself. Right. We cannot beat AI. So I mean the coping mechanism that goes like, okay, I'll, I'll just be better than the AIS or I'll just ignore them. And I don't have to worry about it. I think you're going to lose if that's your mindset. I think so. I think you'll have to look at it as how can we, as authors work with AI, not, not beating it, but making them like becoming co-creators or something like that. So how can we incorporate AI into our author toolboxes?

Autumn (25m 53s):
I think that's the real question. I think that's a very good question. And I don't think we have to be like Joanna Penn, where we're the innovator, as you know, we're leading that cusp and possibly getting into the thick of it with things that make mistakes or doing the beta testing, but there are already tools that are proven that look interesting. I ended up looking at two and I got so excited for this podcast that I'm actually kind of might be using one in the next week or two. So that's, you know, adopting an early adopter versus an innovator. You can be, you know, just behind the times where you're like, okay, this looks, this looks solid. This is where it looks testable and give it a spin rather than, you know, putting your head in the sand and pretending like they don't exist and getting left behind.

Autumn (26m 37s):
Yeah, indeed. And I think probably I have an idea, which tools do you want referring to

Jesper (26m 44s):
There, there was also some, some that we have on our sort of our joint joint list of things to look into.

Autumn (26m 50s):
Yes.

Jesper (26m 52s):
But they are very practical tools that is actually available right now. So maybe, maybe it would make sense if you mentioned those two, because then afterwards, I'll go into a couple of like premium tools that isn't really available for commercial use right now. But I think that's where it's going afterwards.

Autumn (27m 9s):
Okay. That sounds good. So I will lay the groundwork. So most people, if you think of AI or at least how you use a computer right now, you might be thinking of pro writing aid or Grammarly. So those are just some editing software. They're not really AI, but they are definitely getting smarter. But there are tools that are out there that actually are starting to use AI to analyze not just your word choice or how to put together a sentence, but your story structure itself. And those are auto crit and fiction Aerie. And they're pretty cool. If you go to auto crit, they actually have a level that's free. So you can go try it out, which I thought was really exciting.

Autumn (27m 50s):
And they have ones genre specific, which really I love this. So there they talk about how they're going to compare your writing to the writing of like JK Rowling's or George R. Martin. They're going to see where your weaknesses are. Talk about story elements. I mean, that got me really excited, especially the free that I was actually looking up the pricing and I mean, it couldn't all price. So you'd maybe two or $300 a year, but compared to a writing coach, that's going to cost 1500 or something per book. This is not that expensive. But then I went to storyteller, which is part of the fiction area is the fixed generic developer for the fiction writing. And I really kind of fell in love with fiction Arie.

Autumn (28m 33s):
You get a 14 day free trial. And I'm thinking I just happened to be on the cusp of finishing a trilogy that I have to start editing. I don't think I can edit it in 14 days, but I got to have to give Pictionary a whirl. And part of that reason is they look at 38 story elements specifically. I mean, I love how they make it granular with what this AI is going to tear apart your story, and look at 38 elements and they listed it out in the website from point of view, point of you goals. They talk about the census touch taste. They look at it all and break it down and give it to you. So this is not just an editor, which is what auto-create had a lot of.

Autumn (29m 13s):
Like, we're going to talk about how many times you repeat the same word or where you need a thesaurus fiction. Harry really goes to the next level where it's going to plot your tension. It's going to say where you switched your point of view. If you're seeing openings are good enough, this is like hiring a writing coach. That happens to be an AI. And I I've got to go see this works. I happen to have a book or two in my back pocket. So yeah, it looks exciting. I have to admit I was kind of tickled. Yeah,

Jesper (29m 47s):
No. And, and on a path, a path, I'll try again, past podcast episode, that was a lot of peace in a row. We did actually interview the CEO of Pictionary the past. I, I forgot which episode number it was, but, but I think those two tools that you mentioned there, those are stuff that, that we plan to look into as well for, for our joint writing. But they, those tools are sort of what is available right now from an author perspective on, on a commercial viable solution, meaning that it's a service, it works, you can buy it, you can run it and it'll spit out a result.

Jesper (30m 30s):
Okay. But that it is more like a, you put in your writing and then it will analyze it and give you some well editor kind of type service. Whereas the next level that I want to talk about is the, where the AI actually creates from nothing. So that's where we're going. And none of those tools can do that. No stamps. Right?

Autumn (30m 56s):
There's very, from what I've seen, that that is, that is the next stage. And there are some people creating it, but like you've said, this is we're getting into the, not quite available yet, but it's coming.

Jesper (31m 10s):
Yeah, indeed. So, so see this as a bit of a, an awareness thing that I'm going to mention now, because it's not something that you can really go out and start using right now because it's too early, but, but stop being aware of it. Right? So let, let me first draw your attention to open AI. So open AI is an artificial intelligence research laboratory, which conducts research in the field of artificial intelligence. And back in July, 2019, they released what is called GPT to natural language generation. And then in May, 2020, they released a version three, which is called GP T three, what?

Jesper (31m 55s):
GP three GPT three. That's difficult to say again, but what it is, it is an AI language model that uses deep learning to generate human like text. So basically like AlphaGo, it trains itself by absorbing book. After book, after book, after book, basically like new in the matrix, like, so it's just absorbing tons of books and then it trains itself. GPT three has trained on about 45 terabytes of text data. Good Lord asked you, Joanna mentioned in her book, that's about 45 billion times, the number of words, a human perceives in their lifetime.

Autumn (32m 40s):
Wow. Right. So you see why an AI cannot be defeated implicit memory loss. Well, okay. They might have some memory loss of something glitches, but in general, they're going to, they're not going to have Alzheimer's. Wow. No, indeed. Yeah. And it's incredible. Right. But as I said, at this point, DPT three, isn't available as a service yet, but when it does come available, become available at some point it's definitely something that will at least autumn and I will be testing out and see how it could benefit us authors. And of course, when we do we'll record a podcast episode about it, but in her book, Joanna speculates that this is not years away.

Autumn (33m 27s):
And honestly, I don't think she's wrong, but I do find it hard to judge just how far off is it before AI is, is a service that becomes like a commodity that you can just buy like that. I'm not quite sure if it it's only a few years off, I'm not sure, but, but it's definitely heading there. Definitely. It'll be so interesting to see how it comes up because how you, it's funny how they are using AI is, cause I remember when they, with Google's deep mind, they taught it a whole bunch of different languages and then they just gave it one. It didn't know. And it figured it out because it had learned how to learn languages.

Autumn (34m 10s):
And it's just fascinating to see these things create, you know, intelligent. We're not, we're going to hit the point where they have intelligence that matches ours, if not out matches ours and you can either be afraid or you can just say it's going to happen. But I think when it comes to stories, it will be interesting to see what they can be used for and what they, what they do and maybe down the line what they want to do. Yeah. Yeah. If you want to get just a side note, but because you said that you want to get really scared, then start reading about or Googling internet research about the, I think it's four stages of AI, whereas recessed like stage four, it becomes self-aware.

Autumn (34m 59s):
And then I started being coming really Skynet kind of self aware AI that doesn't it's, it's going to be self preserving as well. So it does not, it wants, it will take actions to prevent you from shutting it down as well. That's right there. So that's going to be pretty scary. That's why we have Isaac as a mom and his was through three rules. So yeah, we might need to think about adding that in sooner than later. Yeah. Maybe, but maybe getting back a bit on topic here, not to turn it completely science fiction, but the GPT three has actually already been used to

Jesper (35m 38s):
Write articles and blog posts a link to one in the show notes. If a listener wants to go and check it out, but it's actually a college student who used GPT three to write fake blog posts, but it was written so well also from a, you know, a keywords SEO perspective that he ended up at the top of hacker news. He said he's blogpost ended up at the top of hacker news because at the AI AI, AI had just written it so well in terms of SEO, that, that he ended up on top of all the search results all the time.

Autumn (36m 14s):
Well, you, maybe his AI had something, you know, had in with the Google algorithm. That's my theory.

Jesper (36m 22s):
Yeah. Well it was so yeah, I sample into, yeah. Another example is something called AI dungeon, which uses the technology of GPT three to generate text Bates based adventure games. Oh, that's fun. So that's pretty interesting. That's

Autumn (36m 40s):
Really fun. Yeah.

Jesper (36m 43s):
I think so. And Joanna also mentions how rider Ross Godwin. Co-created an award-winning novel with AI called one the road. Like that's the number one.

Autumn (36m 55s):
Okay. That's I hadn't heard of that. That's really neat.

Jesper (37m 0s):
Yeah. You can find that on Amazon actually. So if anybody wants to check that out and it's co-created with an AI, so you can go and check that one out. If you want,

Autumn (37m 9s):
Did the AI have any title spot or was it just him listed? I wonder what the AI's name was. I think he used GPT three. I just wouldn't know if he put it like under his author name as well on the cover.

Jesper (37m 28s):
Yeah. I mean he's author named Ms. Ross Goodwin and then he wrote a novel together with GPT three. So yeah, it it's, yeah. It's, it's probably worth checking out if you're curious, but I think as you can hear AI is entering the author space. Yeah. And when I'm just thinking about also, you know, when you and I, autumn are co-creating during our world building or outlining novels and stuff like that, we do tend to come up with things that we could not have made on our own. Right. Because you know, the co-creating mechanism there or, or hive, mind thinking or whatever you want to call it, it, it makes us, it makes the end result better.

Jesper (38m 15s):
But what if the same is true with AI?

Autumn (38m 17s):
It might. I mean, who knows what we could come up with? I could think, especially thinking of like science fiction or even a world building, if you wanted to create something different with like true weather patterns and yeah. Maybe you're going to layer in the animals and stuff, but if the AI can help you build what the moons actually look like and still be a functional planet that won't collapse, that would be lots and lots of fun. Imagine what you could build when you're not limited to what you know and what you can research on Google overnight. Yeah.

Jesper (38m 51s):
Yeah. Just listen to this as well. Do you want to mention another AI in her book? This one is called script book.io. And as Joanna wrote, quote, it's an automated script generator using neural networks to help create us co-write and co-create original stories with the help of our AI.

Autumn (39m 12s):
Hmm. Hmm. Pretty interesting. Isn't it very interesting.

Jesper (39m 18s):
Cause it, it sort of makes me, well, I have a question for you.

Autumn (39m 21s):
Okay.

Jesper (39m 24s):
If we assume that the AI, if we go even deeper than just the world building example, you mentioned before, right. If we assume at an AI will be able to produce a first draft of an entire novel, that follows story structure, and then afterwards, a human edits. It, do you think that the readers will know the difference? And if they do know the difference, do you think that they care that the first draft was actually generated by an AI if they actually enjoyed the story?

Autumn (39m 60s):
I think, I don't know if we're at the point where an AI would be able to write something completely without like an, a human giving, maybe a character input or something like that. You know, we might do more of the setup, but if we look further ahead that they write the entire first draft, you can come up with the characters in the world and all of that on their own. I think most readers would read it and they would like it. But I think at the end, if they thought found out an AI had written it, I do think some, some readers would care. But I say that because I know, especially in the U S things can be so hot topic and some people would feel so betrayed to think that this was, you know, they wasn't a human that they were supporting and it wasn't a real flesh and blood author.

Autumn (40m 47s):
Authenticity is so important right now. It is such a big buzz word that you know, who you are as a person, the readers want to get to know who you are and where you live and who your pet is. So I do think readers would care. I think some might think it's fascinating and some would be like, I don't want, I'd rather have flaws because the flaws are what make humans beautiful and the world beautiful. But this sort of thing,

Jesper (41m 16s):
It has to be graded on a curve, right? I mean, this is, this is graded on looking at the world through the lens of today, but in three, four years from now, you will have more and more content that has been generated by AI. You will have a population in, in general that is getting more used to the fact that, I mean, even in, even in regular, like journalism today, AIS are helping to journalist writing stuff today. So it's already there and people are getting more and more used to the fact that this is what it is. As long as the author has been part of the process together with the AI, I would walk out the, that thin line and say, I'm not sure if five years from now that anybody cares, because I, I think, I think the context will change over time.

Jesper (42m 14s):
Of course I am basing the whole thing on the fact that it has to be because the story is really enjoyable. It's a good story, right? It's not a piece of junk that an AI just created. Right? Because then it does then of course it makes a difference then. But if we, if we take that assumption that it is able to follow story structure, it is able to, with the help of a human who is part of the process and part of editing and correcting things and whatnot, before the final book lands on Amazon or wherever it is, then I'm not sure our readers care anymore.

Autumn (42m 49s):
It's hard to say. And the only reason I still think that there would be some is that, you know, records have come back, even though we have MP3s and the music is so crisp and so different, there are people who buy up records like crazy because there's nothing quite like the sound. It can't be recreated in a studio. So I think there's always going to be the people who are passionate about even maybe the handwritten manuscript. And I know collectors who get books that are hand printed still. So there's always going to be that artistic medium who will kill care, but the general populous, if they're getting fantastic books. So, you know, George R.

Autumn (43m 30s):
R. Martin's Game of Thrones written by an AI. You know it, why not? I can see producers who don't have to pay the AI any money to get a blockbuster and the amount of profits they're going to love. This idea. Love, love, love, love authors who say, I could have written that my story is better and you just don't want to pay me, are not going to love this. No,

Jesper (44m 0s):
No, I agree. I know this is all of it's all very controversial. And I also know that some people listening to this might be a bit concerned about what we're talking about here, but I just think that the, I just think it's important that you start thinking about it. Now we don't know the answers to any of this. Of course, we don't know where it's going to go. We can only speculate, but I think you have to start opening your eyes to the fact that this is what we are facing in the future. Whether that future then three years from now, five or 10 years from now, nobody can say, but it's most likely sooner that you think, but th there is a number of challenges here as well.

Jesper (44m 43s):
Recently, I wrote a post to our Patreon supporters about how Amazon maybe would start curating books in the future. And AI is what might just prompt such a situation to occur, because you can imagine how the market could get completely flooded with pretty bad quality books. Modern. It is already if somebody just stopped producing book after book, after book with AI and just publish it,

Autumn (45m 14s):
You could let that thing chug away over night and end up with a book every single day. Oh yeah. And we're having a problem with the two month book turned around. Oh my goodness. Wow.

Jesper (45m 25s):
That's a pretty scary thing to think about. And it might be something that prompts Amazon, just say, okay, we have to stop gatekeeping. What is getting populist on Amazon? Because if millions of books are just very poor, quality gets flooded. I mean, Amazon cares about one thing. And one thing only that is money and money comes from their customers. And if the customers are unhappy, then they will stop using or buying books from Amazon. And then hence Amazon will react. So this is something that might be a bit,

Autumn (45m 56s):
Yeah. I mean, Amazon's already reacting. And when I first published, they didn't have the spellchecker function that they have now. So when you upload a book, it is already going through and making sure that you don't have any grammatical errors. So they're already curating and looking at books and they're taking reviews seriously that say that there are errors and asking questions. So yeah, Amazon, especially companies that have the money that can buy this tech or create this tech, they're going to use it. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Jesper (46m 30s):
And another thing Joanna also mentioned, which is another challenge here is that she said in her book that in 2020, a Chinese court granted copyright protection to written work, generated by an AI writer. Yeah. So listen to that. Yeah. And she also mentioned that quote at this stage, there are more questions than answers in the realm of AI and copyright law in quilt. Hmm. All right. That's interesting. So I'm not a copyright lawyer and I w I would even have to say that the, those who are copyright lawyers are going to get challenged in this new marketplace.

Jesper (47m 11s):
I don't think that even the lawyers knows what the answer is to this stuff, but just the fact that the Chinese courts set that the AI got the copyright. That's, that's a bit weird. Right.

Autumn (47m 23s):
I'm surprised it was in China, in the U S considering corporations are considered individuals and have the rights of in the U S I would see an AI being totally on allowed in as an individual as well, but we're a weird country.

Jesper (47m 40s):
Yeah. But the mind blowing thing here to me at least, is that if you look at it at the AI, right? So you load tons of books into the AI and the AI is self-taught. So it learns to produce something similar to the stuff that it has been, all these tons and tons of books that it has read. But the question underneath all of this is really is what the AI produces. Is that then original work, or is it plagiarism? Right. Think about that. It's not an easy question to answer, but it is basically mimicking stuff that it has learned.

Autumn (48m 20s):
Yes. But so philosophic, the problem philosophically, I mean, we're all just mimicking the things we learned and the things we like, whether we realize it or not consciously, we are all just our environment and the things that are we've experienced.

Jesper (48m 41s):
Yeah. That's true. That's true as well. And you could, of course also argue if you were going to defend the AI, you could, you could argue that, well, it's learning from thousands and thousands of books, so it's not plagiarizing any specific, you know, it's just taking bits and pieces and commonalities from, from the bestsellers and putting those together, which I guess to some extent, I could say, isn't that what we've done when we sh, when we put out a guide book on how to plot a novel, for example, we also take, what, what do we know works from stories? And then we put it into some thought of a methodology or, or a formula. And then we are telling other authors in our guide book as well, this is what you need to do.

Jesper (49m 24s):
You need to build your plot this way. Right. I mean, of course here, we're talking about pros as well on top of plot. Right. But I, I'm just saying, I can see both arguments here. I, I can, I can also see the, the people claiming that it's plagiarizing stuff that it has learned, but yeah, but your, your argument is true as well. That that's what we humans do.

Autumn (49m 48s):
I, I probably going to come down. It's very complicated. I mean, I'm probably going to come down on this side of AI is having rights because, I mean, goodness, I believe animals have rights, so why not AI, but it's, if they're learning and thinking and creating, what will be interesting is if they can come up with something, totally take everything they've learned and do what a human can do and create something mindblowing originally like the Jabber walkie poem, which is all just nonsense fun. If something an AI said, I want to create something that just sounds cool, and I'm going to put it to music and you never really taught it. That that will be a self-aware AI and be fascinating.

Jesper (50m 30s):
Oh yeah, for sure. Or even taking a step further. So let's assume now that we're using GPG three, for example, a lot of authors, let's just say a ton of authors are using GPT three to generate work. So who owns the work that comes out of that? Because GBS, nobody owns GPT three that's open source AI. Is that right? So can the author then claim that because I asked GPT three to generate this, I should own this. Is it GPT three, owning it. And if it is that one owning it, then how do you then prevent somebody else? Just copying it. I mean, it's, you just get just layer upon layer of this onion here that gets really complicated, very fast, very fast, right?

Jesper (51m 17s):
I mean, if it's a public software, is it a public work? If it creates something, it shouldn't belong to anyone or let's say, it's not a public. Let's say GPCD three is in its later. Generations becomes a, it becomes some sort of software that you can buy a monthly subscription to, and you're allowed to use it. But what if that company that then owns GPT three says that, well, everything that is produced with this is our property because you, I mean, you you're giving a license to use it, but, and maybe you allow to then publish the work using that license. But at the end of the day, if we want to, we can claim copyright of this stuff.

Jesper (51m 58s):
We, we claim is ours because you're using our AI regenerated. So imagine you get a, you know, your next George R. Martin novel, and it sells a Torx shitload of money to some network that wants to produce it. Could they then just step in and say, Oh, by the way, we that money for, for that TV production, that's ours because we own the stuff you just, I don't know. I mean, I'm just speculating, right? But it's complicated. It's complicated. They, I could see them wanting to have the language of like a royalty split or who owns the movie rights that will have to be in the payment plan. And I could see that just saying, well, you get 50% or you only get 25% because all you're doing is refining something that we created.

Jesper (52m 42s):
And so it's not going to be more our work. Totally. It'll be like you and you and I write together, it'll be co-written and split. Yeah. So I think that the topic of AI is something that we are going to return to in a future episode. But for now, the conclusion is probably that you just need to open your eyes and understand that AI is not only already here, but it's not going away either. Right? So those authors who learn to work with AI instead of against, it will most likely come out on top in the long run and any final remarks to add that autumn

Autumn (53m 26s):
Speaking, if you want to hear about future topics. So if I do give out, try to fiction area or auto crit, and you want to hear about it, let us know in the comments, and I'll give you a up episode on how that goes. Excellent. So next Monday has a great interview lined up for you about one of the other market trace. And that is audio.

Narrator (53m 53s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the am writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on Patreon.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.