The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 137 – How to Maintain Your Story's Flow

No matter how fast you type, you can't write an entire novel in one day. So how do you keep your story's flow going?

From character traits to how to pick up writing where you left off, we go over tips to help you pull your story together so you can keep writing without letting readers feel something is disjointed.

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Learn more about the changes Apple is making to email settings at https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/8/22525195/apple-mail-protection-privacy-pixel-tracking-newsletters-substack

Learn more about maintaining your story's flow on our blog at https://www.amwritingfantasy.com/how-to-maintain-your-story-flow/!

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Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper.

Autumn (32s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 137 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And we have a writing related episode today as well. Well, We were going to discuss how to maintain your story flow in this one was one of your ideas.

Autumn (48s):
All of them, there was, well, actually it came off the blog. It was a very popular post there. So I thought we should do an updated content slash podcast on maintaining your story flow, which is convenient because I have, like I shared with you before we started, I've finishing up the final book of the tainted phase. So I wrote this, so I stopped at the end of January. So, you know, almost six months ago now, and I've realized I was missing a chapter. So too, we use all one more. If I always, oh, that's my history. I will write a short book. And when I get to the climax, I'm always adding at least two or three chapters. So what's the right, that, that next chapter that would flow and fit into the whole story after six months it's oh, it's a little more challenging.

Autumn (1m 34s):
I think that in a lot of people realized to make sure that that kind of meshes Inn and sounds right, and they still have the character in my head. So those are the kinds of tips we are going to look at. Cause it could be six months like I did, it could be a year. It could be just, I don't know, between one day and the next and you just kinda lose that, that drive that makes this story sound like one cohesive whole. And we wanted that. You don't wanna do that. You want to read or not to go, well, what happened with their reading? It did they all, they have a bad date. That's why they character died. Right. But you already had like 150,000 words and then you add up, you decided to have another chapter.

Autumn (2m 16s):
So that was I, that was counting that chapter. I knew how long it was going to be. So that's 150,000 and yeah, I was aiming for 90,000, but there's just so much going on in so many important storylines when you write the final book of a series and you're pooling all of those together and she let my readers know theirs kind of have a few ending things that could continue on to another book because that's like I said, I swear my tombstone is going to be, I'm going to have it like a design as a book. And on one side, it's going to have all my, all my information of who I was. And the other side is going to say to be continued because I will never, ever wrap up a story completely.

Jesper (2m 56s):
I don't think so. Yeah.

Autumn (2m 58s):
Even this one even was the final book. It's not possibly the final, final book ever, but yeah, yeah, that was a lot going on. So yeah, it went from 90,250. That was just the way it goes sometimes. But that's also a good thing, you know, 'cause, if you are well in general, you know, if sales justify it, then it's always nice to have a few open-ended so that you can continue on. Oh, absolutely. Or if you know the character's wake you up three M a little to often, maybe we will continue with anyway. So just for yourself, it is, you have the characters, are you regretted? You didn't kill that character.

Autumn (3m 40s):
And I don't know how that could be worse and you'll have undead.

Jesper (3m 43s):
All right. It's all right. You got to watch out which ones you kill off.

Autumn (3m 50s):
Like they can come back too. And that's true. So otherwise we have just been a writing in going about all that editing stuff. Yeah. So that's pretty, and some book covers. I've got to, I'm trying to finish up this Tainted Fae in staying out of the heat. We're recording early again because we have vacation time coming up. So where we're at now in the world, it is incredibly sweltering in record, breaking temperatures and highs for all. I know that's going to be the next month as well. So I have been hiding from the heat and getting up extremely early so that if I want to exercise or do anything outside, it has done before 7:00 AM.

Autumn (4m 31s):
'cause you don't want to go outside after 7:00 AM. Not if you're, we've already discussed that. I have that pro, so that fly protein that, that your brain unwinds at above 80 degrees. And that's it for me. So I'm going to stay inside and do very small, quiet things.

Jesper (4m 48s):
All right. Well, writing time is not too bad anyway. So of course, if it gets too warm that you can't write it, and that is a bit of annoying thing to do.

Autumn (4m 58s):
So. Yeah. Yeah. Well that, that's my excuse for the AC is my dog. So as we've talked about, and this is a fizzy gig, he looks like a fizzy gig. He is as free as a fizzy gig and he gets hot. So we have to have an AC on. And then from my poor computer's sake, I have to actually run an AC because that gets too hot and humid. And I can't run all my, I can't write where I can't draw all that's the end of the world for me, so that I have been working on some fun fantasy maps for other authors and some really cool book covers. And I don't want my computer to die on me, which means they probably shouldn't touch it.

Jesper (5m 33s):
So that famous question of what would you bring to a desert island? It's just like my computer so I can make the very least pen and paper, this giant sketchbook, because you can use that for writing or drawing.

Autumn (5m 45s):
Oh yeah. That's true. So how have things been for you?

Jesper (5m 52s):
Good. Yes. I got my first vaccine shot last Friday and I was sort of really crossing my fingers that I wouldn't get sick from it. Like some people have been, but I was actually okay. You know, Friday, Saturday, and I was fine when my arm was sore. Like it is for a lot of people, so that was fine. But then Sunday, Monday, and also part of today, I've just been so drained of energy and extremely tired. I have so much, it's been a, it's been a struggle for me as well. And so I haven't gotten any writing done yesterday, none done today either.

Jesper (6m 37s):
I just haven't had the energy. So I'm sort of fingers crossed that maybe I'll get some writing done tomorrow, but honestly, I feel like right now it's, it's sort of up in the air whether or not, I don't know. We, I think it depends on how I feel tomorrow.

Autumn (6m 52s):
I can understand you said that I went through the same thing. So it's something that goes quiet on the podcast and you only hear me talking, you've gone to sleep.

Jesper (7m 0s):
And so yeah, you can sort of that clap your hands on the podcast and then they might wake me up.

Autumn (7m 7s):
Oh, all right. Well, we'll have to keep that in mind. If I see the screen go dark and you're kind of off to the side,

Jesper (7m 16s):
or if you hear a bump in to the microphone, that was just my forehead.

Autumn (7m 20s):
So that we go, all right, that's fair enough.

Jesper (7m 24s):
Oh, but I did. I took me awhile to really put two and two together because we'd been traveling and a few other things, but I re I had that for like two weeks. So I hope it doesn't last that long for you, but I even started drinking iced coffees and stuff, and I'm not a coffee drinker. It's, I'm like T all the way, but I needed something because it felt like my whole life had gotten derailed. And I'm usually high energy. I mean, I'm actually low energy compared to my mom.

Autumn (7m 50s):
And you should meet her. She's like a tornado. I just, I was fading, but right after lunch and, and, and you're right, if it's a tiredness where your brain is just like, you want me to put two words together, know, knock it up. And so I, and it's just that size. Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, it's feeling slightly a better today compared to you yesterday evening, if even so I hope fingers crossed by tomorrow. That I'll be somewhat.

Jesper (8m 19s):
Okay. Again, I I'm not feeling bad or anything. I'm just so, oh, so, oh, well that was the big question you get sick.

Autumn (8m 25s):
That's good. That's good. But the big question is they are now saying mixing your vaccinations. Your types is a good thing. So are you going to get the same thing again? Are you going to go get something different for your second shot?

Jesper (8m 39s):
It's the same one that I'm going to go for a second shot. And I, and the nurse did say when I got this first shot, she said that mostly people have more after effects of the second one than the first one. So I'm expecting they might be worse, but let's see.

Autumn (8m 58s):
It only lasted. I didn't get, even, I felt a little run down from maybe 12 hours and then it was like, oh, I'm fine. I didn't have the same tiredness. So hopefully you will feel okay.

Jesper (9m 7s):
All right. Yeah.

Narrator (9m 11s):
Oh, a week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, the

Jesper (9m 17s):
Virtual reported on some interesting information that I thought it would be very good to share with people here on the podcast because it's highly relevant for us authors.

Autumn (9m 30s):
Yes. So I'm, we talked a bit about this as well before the recording.

Jesper (9m 34s):
So you're already in the loop here.

Autumn (9m 37s):
We have just, we've already strategized and discussed it because it does change how you run one of the most important things that you will have as an author. If you're running a business,

Jesper (9m 49s):
man, that was quite a and efficient Tuesday order. And once you think of it, that you had recorded over a hundred posts, podcast episodes by now,

Autumn (9m 59s):
and most of them by the seat of my pants. Thank you.

Jesper (10m 3s):
You don't say that. You just keep that to yourself.

Autumn (10m 5s):
Oh, okay. Sorry. My mistake I'm always prepared.

Jesper (10m 9s):
Yeah, exactly. I don't know if, if I said what you needed to lie, but you have just leave out information. That is not the same as lieing. And now you are an outright lying and such.

Autumn (10m 18s):
I feel like I'm always prepared because I know it's so well, I don't need to do my own work.

Jesper (10m 23s):
Yeah. Okay. Now we just paddling. Instead. I'm really glad that we get back to this anyway, where we wanted to talk about an article in the verge that they have. They reported from a one of apple, apple usually make announcements on its worldwide developer conference. And a, one of the announcement's that they made on the worldwide developer conference was concerning e-mail marketing. And obviously from us authors email lists and being in touch with readers through email and so on is really, really important. So that of course made me pay attention.

Jesper (11m 6s):
It's one of the cornerstones for us authors. And it's not only of course some email, this is not only for building an audience, but also maintaining it. So what apple announced was that what they call major privacy protection. Mmm. And what this means is that it's basically a way in which apple will limit the amount of data that people who send you emails can collect about you. So all in all, I'm very supportive of that. I, I liked the privacy protections in general, and I don't like when all the M big corporations.

Jesper (11m 47s):
And so what not collect information from what you're doing on the internet and so on, but that also to all of us author's of course, because when we are sending out emails, there is in the email and invisible pixel that basically tracks in the sense that if the pixel gets loaded, eh, which means that than the email was opened than the information is sent back to the email providers. So that, that could be whatever email provider you used like us, we use MailerLite, you could be a MailChimp ConvertKit whatever, when you use, right. But all of these vendors incorporate these invisible pixels to be able to tell you what your open rate is.

Jesper (12m 33s):
So, but when the fall comes, apple will roll out the Iowa iOS update version 15. And within that iOS update, the mail app will basically stop a, that invisible picture from loading. Yes. And this also means that whenever you are sending emails to readers who are using apple, then the tracking of the open rates will start become inaccurate, or basically they, it won't trigger the registration within the email provider. So this also means that when you're looking at the metric called open rates, that's basically what is tracked via this pixel.

Jesper (13m 21s):
Well, then you need to understand that a certain percentage of the reader's that actually opens the email's is telling you when you are looking at the open rates that they did not open it. So let me just do that again, in case that was a bit confusing. So when you send your emails, the open rates will get tracked, but 'cause this blocking is in place by apple is means to have some people will open the email, but you won't know that they open the emails. So maybe that was a better way of putting it all.

Autumn (13m 53s):
That makes sense.

Jesper (13m 54s):
So what that's, what this, all of this means to us, all authors, in my view, I think we need to, first of all, of course, don't be like overly concerned and worried. And now I think that the world is falling apart and now email marketing will be worth nothing and so on. And that is not the case, right? So lets first of all, take a deep breath. Don't worry too much. So it's not like nothing will work anymore. Email marketing is still the most important cornerstone of your author business in my view. But there is of course, a few things you need to be aware of. And one of the things that autumn and I discussed today prior to this recording was that a pretty common, best practice is too recent to on open.

Jesper (14m 40s):
So again, within your email provider being MailChimp ConvertKit MailerLite blah, blah, blah, whatever it's called, they have always like an automated function where you can set up the system either automatically reset to open one's. If I remember correctly in ConvertKit you have to do it manually, but they will track it. And you can go in and say, I want a recent, this email to unopens M which is a smart thing to do. And it's, it's like a best practice. And we have been doing it for a long time already. But what I would say is that since the tracking pixel doesn't register, whether they opened it or not, this means that it will automatically be displayed as unopened. So if you don't start recently emails, all the people on apple devices, or at least all the people who haven't actively opt into wanting to be tracked, which I will assume will be a very, very small group of people who will actually opt into being tracked.

Jesper (15m 37s):
So that means that let's just say all of it all like 99% of the people using apple devices, if you receive emails to unopens, you are going to send them the same email that maybe a lot of those people already read and then they're gonna get it again. What's this going to annoy them? Or a lot of it would annoy me.

Autumn (15m 56s):
Yeah. So, and then you are unsubscribe rate is going to go up unsubscribed

Jesper (16m 1s):
because why are these people always sending me the same email twice? That's really annoying. And I understand that. So the thing we discussed now was that come September, we will stop re sending to an open. And we'll just hope that people actually open the emails because we can't trust that metric anymore. Yeah. And that's that that's annoying of course, but so is life and life moves on?

Autumn (16m 26s):
Oh gosh. Well adapt. It's fine. Yeah. It's definitely something to keep in mind. If you clean out your email list based on, you know, people who don't ever open your emails, you might want to, you know, send them an email beforehand with like a link to click or something that gets them to a survey. That's why we liked MailerLite there are so many like active things that people can do to answer questions and click on things and stuff like that. So you might want to make sure you do something before you delete someone because they might of be reading every single one, but that might be reading it on an apple come September. At that point, you're not going to know if they're reading it or not. So keep that in mind.

Jesper (17m 6s):
Oh, that's a very right. That that's exactly the other part of it. And what of course, where we do is we try to run what we call re-engagement campaign. So that means that we are sending like three, four emails to see if we can get them to re-engage before we delete them. But even then you need to be careful because the way that we set up re-engagement campaigns normally is that if they didn't open the email or so of course, although if they click something inside the email, we will remove the tack against their name for them to be deleted.

Autumn (17m 38s):
Right.

Jesper (17m 38s):
But again, that won't work anymore. No. So you can't even trust that. So you have to be, I think very, very explicit in the emails that you send out, like telling that you cannot tell whether or not they're reading your emails and therefore you want to make sure. So if you are doing pruning of your lists, meaning deleting stuff, people that who are inactive, which I think is a good practice to do it. And I also know a lot of people also influencers in the author space who do not agree that it's a good idea to prove the list. So take that as you will. But if something you do, then don't base your decision on deleting people on the open rates know.

Jesper (18m 18s):
So that's also a problem. Yes.

Autumn (18m 21s):
Yeah. So we have changes, but will get well adapted. Its not that big of a deal. Well we'll survive unless you're really into metrics. If you're really in a metrics. I'm so sorry if it's going to be bad metrics.

Jesper (18m 32s):
Yeah, indeed. So we will place a link to the article in the show notes. So if you want to check it out and if you want to read what was more set in in more details, then you can. But honestly I just told you everything. So sounds good.

Autumn (18m 47s):
And I have one thing to share even though it's, it's not really to the author community, but I know they can celebrate with me.

Jesper (18m 53s):
Okay. Yeah.

Autumn (18m 54s):
I don't know if you notice, but over the weekend board of water hit its 400th review, so yay. Oh that's my debut novel. And so it is lovely to see it hit 400 when age.

Jesper (19m 6s):
Oh wow. That's so good. Very good. Congratulations. You 400 reviews. That's that's not a small,

Autumn (19m 16s):
oh that's a nice round number. It's a big one. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesper (19m 21s):
Oh so a very quick reminder, before we move on to the topic of the day here as mentioned last week, we've decided to offer everyone on our email list and massive discount for either of our flagship courses. And we will be mailing out a voucher code of 150 bucks to be used on any of our courses.

Autumn (19m 44s):
Oh I was gonna say, oh you said two flagships that we actually decided like what an hour ago, it's going to be for a choice of three courses.

Jesper (19m 52s):
So yeah.

Autumn (19m 53s):
Why not that big deal?

Jesper (19m 54s):
Well, yeah that's that's quite a discount. Yeah. So we have the ultimate fantasy, all writers guide course, which is the writing guide or the writing course. We have the well building course, which yeah, I guess you, maybe you can guess what that's about.

Autumn (20m 11s):
Yeah. Well it's officially called crafting incredible fantasy world. So we do you call it world-building that would of been too easy.

Jesper (20m 19s):
We also have, then that's the third one that we added into the pot, the email marketing course, which is very much on point of what we just talked about. Oh yeah. So you can get $150 off of any of these courses, any one of them of your choice.

Autumn (20m 37s):
Yup.

Jesper (20m 38s):
And we placed a link in the show notes from where you can get onto our email is so that you will also get this emailed once we send out the vouchers. But yeah, if that's something that you interest you, I will alert you to get on the email list right now as you're listening to this, because I'm not gonna say for sure when we're going to send out the voucher, but it's going to come in the next probably maybe three weeks or something like that. So if you forget about it and don't get signed up, then you're going to miss it. So yeah. You better get going. Sounds good.

Narrator (21m 13s):
And on to today's topic.

Jesper (21m 17s):
Perhaps I'll just give you the range here, autumn, and that we can explain what we were talking about.

Autumn (21m 21s):
You just doing that because I said I never did my homework and I do this by this either of my pants. And you're like, okay, go, go for how long

Jesper (21m 27s):
I'm going to test it.

Autumn (21m 30s):
So yeah. Well I've already hinted about this at the beginning. So this topic is maintaining your story flow into me. This means sort of what I said before that it makes this story. It's two parts won that when you have a reader reading it, it sounds like one cohesive story. It doesn't matter if it took you five years to write it a decade or if your one of those insane fast writers, it took you a week. It all should still sound like it was one author written in one setting in story. It doesn't sound like it's all over the place where all these big life events happened in between. And the other thing is, as a writer sitting down to write, it lets the reader's response. But as a writer, you know, you have life jobs, personal things, COVID, you know, all of these things that have been every single day, hopefully not that often, but things that interrupt her writing in, how do you maintain that story?

Autumn (22m 25s):
Almost enthusiasms. How do you keep that voice? That author's voice, the characters have voice going so that you don't feel like you're coming back and going, oh, I have no idea what I was writing and it doesn't make any sense. And where was I going with that? So its kind of have those two principles. I think we're really covering today. If you agree with that.

Jesper (22m 45s):
Oh yeah. I like the idea for this podcast episode, all that, but it's also a very broad one. We, we can sort of go anywhere where you almost absolutely. Oh yeah. I think that was kind of like the idea is to just help you keep that story vibe going, but, and there are so many different ways of doing that and was one thing that was going to work for somebody might not work for you. So, oh, we're going to cover a couple of different things I think. Alright. So where did we start?

Autumn (23m 11s):
Oh well to me and I think you'll agree with this is the best way to keep your story on track and flowing. And so that you don't feel like if like last is to have some sort of outline, doesn't have to be a whole plot, but outline, I thought you'd liked that one. I mean we have those old YouTube videos. Maybe we can find the link to them and like how to make a half an hour story outline. It doesn't have to be something you spend days or weeks plotting, but to have a roadmap so that you know where you're at and where you're going. And that way if you happen to be halfway or a quarter or three-quarters you can pick it up and go, oh yes, this is where I am.

Autumn (23m 52s):
And you can go back on your route again and not get lost. Yeah. I would say even better either go to a Am Writing Fantasy dot com or go to Amazon or wherever you buy books and then just search for my own name. And then you will find the book called plot development and their is a full step-by-step guide, their, that we actually wrote on how to do the outline and it will help you a lot. It will

Jesper (24m 19s):
And even if your pants or even if you don't blink outlining you just try it on once and then I will fully respect if you afterwards say, yeah, it's not from me. Fine. But I think it's important not to have an idea in your head, that loud lining is not for you, if you haven't tried it. And there's a lot of those people out there, I'm sorry. But there is, there's a lot of people that have prejudiced that outlining is not from me. It doesn't work. That's not how I right. But they've never actually tried it. So I'd say just try it before you judge. That's all I would say.

Autumn (24m 51s):
I agree. And it'd be having started as a pantser and we all know that I'm the Guinea pig of this spontaneous and hey. You go do this and I go in and do it without him thinking often, I don't know. I've got to work on that. You can't believe I've made it this long in my life. But I, I went from pantsing to at least mildly plotting. I mean, that's why I developed first that half an hour outline. And now when we're writing together, we plot and we plot pretty heavy. And the more I get into writing in the types of writing, I like, I like literary fantasy and I like very involved subplots and plot. So have you only get that if you are plotting because it's too hard and tangled to do as a solid pantser, if anyone could keep that going hats off to you, but I don't know how you can do that intense of a storyline without doing some plotting.

Autumn (25m 41s):
So give it a try. It's amazing what comes out the other end. And as I said, I tend to be very much so I live my life as a pantser and I'm a plotter when it comes to writing.

Jesper (25m 51s):
Yeah. And I would also go out on a limb and say that the people who say that they can do that, that's not, that's not right. I I'm sure that the pantsers can make a very, very elaborate plots and subplots and so on. But the thing is that the re the way that they do that is they, they, they have to go over it many, many, many times and see that in and edit it and edit more and more to see that in new things in and make things connected and so on. So that's of course also the way to do it. A but if we were talking about maintaining a flow, then it is easier when you have an outline and you notice that everything is already connecting, you know, all the foreshadowing it's there, you set it up.

Jesper (26m 32s):
So, you know, exactly what's beats to hit in which chapters and so on. And it just makes it easier.

Autumn (26m 39s):
It does that even with, even the outlining, and we look beyond the plotting, having a chapter outline and having a chapter flow, where you go, you have a hook at the intro and you have a developing problem and a climate, you know, a resolution. And that's usually tangles into the next chapter. If you're skipping point of view, you know, having those things figured out, what's the next point of view? What is the next thing? What is the next hook? What's the, how has this, chapter's going to end those that are having those aspects figured it out really helped you maintain this, just focusing on this story of focusing on the emotional plot or the character arc that helps you maintain your flow. I mean, I always liked the idea that Einstein had five different suits.

Autumn (27m 20s):
They were all exactly the same because it wasn't, you didn't want to have to stress his mind about what am I wearing. He had bigger things to think of. And when it comes to your story, it's the same thing. You have bigger things to think of than, oh, you know, how has this next chapter going to start off, get all that figured out so that you can just enjoy writing and the process of writing. And you don't have to spend half of you're writing time. And especially, I mean, like you said, when I have my full-time job, they would have time. You have 45 minutes, a night to write or an hour and a half. And I still finished four books in a year because I had it all figured out. I knew when I came home, I could open it up and see where I was read the last sentence and go, oh, this is where I've had.

Autumn (28m 0s):
And I could just get to writing. I didn't have to worry about all this other stuff. Cause it was set up ahead of time.

Jesper (28m 7s):
Mm. Yeah, indeed. And if, if, if, if you don't like outlining and that sort of thing works for the pantser, right. I mean, if, you know, if you think about the day before, where am I going to start the next chapter tomorrow, then that will help keeping the flow going. Even if you don't have an outline.

Autumn (28m 25s):
Absolutely. That was, that was so of my favorite tricks for myself as when I realized like your down until your last five minutes of writing time, you know, the family there in the background and food, food, food dinner, who are you ever coming out of there and get off the computer and you know, that that's coming and you're like, okay. Instead of writing and trying to finish up the scene, I would actually take a break and start making notes for myself. I would get hit space a couple of times, put it in bold or italics so that I knew this was, this is just notes for myself. And that say, this is where I'm going. This is where this scene is going. This is where the next chapter is. Just brain dump everything that's in your head because you know, you're almost out of writing time and the most efficient use for it.

Autumn (29m 7s):
So that you'll be able to pick it up again faster. Next time is to leave yourself some breadcrumbs, make sure you do that as a fantastic way of wrapping up you're writing. And then to tell them, look, I only need five more minutes, please just give me this.

Jesper (29m 25s):
No that that's true. And I was also thinking that M one of the things that I'm very much an advocate for in terms of keeping the flow in the writing going is to get the writing done before anything else, if it's first thing that you do when ever you have to time, whether it's in the mornings or the evenings. So that doesn't matter. But, but if you do the writing before you do any of the other stuff, like maybe managing some ads or replying to emails or whatever, it may be sort of admin stuff that you have. If you do the writing first, then you are taking care of the most important thing first.

Jesper (30m 5s):
And that, that helps a lot in terms of keeping the flow going and you don't get sucked into, oh my God, it's now a week since I wrote last time, because I've been doing all these other things and maybe you got a lot of fun, but it hurts you're writing. So I'm prioritizing of that sentence is important.

Autumn (30m 24s):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it helps before when I had the full-time job, I would often write when I got home, which was at my most creative time. It helps to know when you're most creative time it is. And for most people it tends to be morning. Some people it's after 11, 11:00 PM. And I know they're, they're vampires I have no idea how that is your creative time, but that they do exist. I've been told I've never met one because I'm asleep. I had 11:00 PM at that time, rarely, very rarely occasionally, but you know what I'm doing overnight drop drives to go see my parents. So that's about the only time you have killed me over night up at 1:00 AM.

Autumn (31m 6s):
All my goodness. But yeah, it's knowing when you are creative time, it is. And trying to set that as your writing time. But if you have nothing else that, you know, having either a set time, this is my writing time and making your family like understand that and not bother you. This is not when you're going to go Facebook and chat, you have to be good to turn off your wifi. So if you have to, I mean, I know we often use it to go do quick research, but you know, leave yourself a blank, you know, come back and do the research later. If you have to do it when you're editing, try to stay offline, truly focus on writing. But I agree now that I I'd rather get up earlier again, I'm in bed early.

Autumn (31m 46s):
So 5:00 AM to me is, is not that bad of a thing. And if I can get an hour of writing in my whole day is just like glowing and set. I just love that. And it's sort of like the idea of, I'm not a huge exercise fan, but if I can get a little bit of exercise in and then get to writing, oh my gosh. So that day is like a, so I already feel like I've won the championship and it's not even 7:00 AM yet.

Jesper (32m 11s):
Yeah. And I, I think as well, the, well, when you said you turn off the internet reminded me because that the fact that they're on know disturbances around really helps a lot. So if you are currently in an environment or a place where you find yourself getting distracted all the time, then maybe you need to find a different place to do you're writing. Mmm. And some people like it when they have very many people around, like in a cafe or something, and there was no summer. Some people liked that noise level. Other people preferred extremely quiet and isolated with a locked door, almost a, but it's up.

Jesper (32m 53s):
So it doesn't matter what it is. But I think it's important that you work out what works for you and try to make sure you create that sort of writing environment for yourself, because that will also again, keep the flow going.

Autumn (33m 6s):
Oh, I agree. I mean, keeping, and that can be a little things. I mean, where are you write the time of day, all the clutter, if, whether or not, you know, you can have a clean writing space often really works better for people, especially if you're still putting all your stuff into sticky notes instead of Scrivener files.

Jesper (33m 23s):
And you're doing that thing of that.

Autumn (33m 25s):
My sticky notes of talking about actual sticky note. So the one of my desktop's, I love my sticky as they work very well. Oh, I think that we've been working together.

Jesper (33m 42s):
So probably you only had to say one word, but where do you start laughing?

Autumn (33m 46s):
Or you're like, oh, this sticky is that he's. But you keeping the clutter, you want to be able to find your notes from your writing file, but I have two, or even if I'm hitting up really bad writing package, and I just need that little to know what you need to push yourself over the edge to get your self and that mind space. Umm, I used to have told you that and I have told the audience, sometimes they would be keeping that page like Jara Martin. There was just like some of this writing, they just go in and speak of wow. That I want to go write because then I wanna right. Like that sometimes. And recently like that chapter or that I just tried to finish. I just, I had a whole bunch of notes and they weren't flowing together. I sometimes do that.

Autumn (34m 26s):
I write backwards. I will just do like scenes and then I'll have little breaks in between them. And I'm like, okay, I've got to make this into a whole thing. And I finally just M sometimes it's putting on headphones. I just put on like a YouTube epic three hours, epic fantasy music. And it helps sometimes having that background and soaring music in battle scenes. And so it was just like, ow, my brain said, oh, okay. Yeah, yay. I know we're going to have right now. And so you need to figure out what your triggers are. You know, what kind of little routine, if you do sit down with a cup of tea and listened to that music or read a paragraph, what do you need to do to make your mind go? Yes, I am ready too. Right. And we're were gonna keep this going.

Jesper (35m 7s):
And sometimes you're just stuck and you don't quite know what is supposed to happen next in this story. And I can't quite work out the character or whatever it may be. And I think here it's very, very good to go outside, go for a walk and put it aside for a bit and get, go out. And don't think about what should happen. Just let the inspiration come to you because it will, your, your mind will be working on solving the, without you even thinking about it. That some that's exactly why sometimes you will experience that when you are in the shower or you all doing grocery shopping, then all of a sudden it pops into your, oh, I know what it is now.

Jesper (35m 48s):
And that's because your mind is working on it. So just sometimes accept the fact that your mind needs a bit of time to work on the problem and then go for the walk, go do something else, whatever it may be. I do feel like fresh air is very, very good thing. A but the main thing, whenever you do, don't stop jumping to the new shiny story idea that you got and leave this one behind because then the other one feels easier to go to because you're not stuck there yet. You have to finish the stuff you're working on. And I know, I know that some people like to have multiple projects that they juggle and fine if that's what you like then, but at least from my point of view, I will never give the advice that you should be jumping into a new projects all the time.

Jesper (36m 33s):
Because the fact that you can prove to yourself that you can finish something is massively important. And even if that, that means that today you are going to go for a walk and you're not going to do anymore writing until tomorrow and wants you slept on it and allowed your mind to work on solving the problem at hand, then that's fine, but don't just put it aside and start writing something new because chances are, you will also hit a roadblock in the new project and then on what you are going to do, are you going to jump to the new one again? And you see all of a sudden, you'd have 10 of unfinished manuscripts on your computer and 'cause every time you get stocked, you jumped you something new and set. You have to teach yourself how to overcome those obstacles and actually finish the work.

Autumn (37m 16s):
I agree. And I would say usually the best ideas come to me, not in the shower, but usually when I have like three things on the stove. And that's always, when you get a good idea and you're like, darn it. That's why I always keep note paper like stickies around so I can keep it quick and, and not forget because writing down those ideas will also help you keep going so you can add them. Like, that's why I do love Scrivener. I can just say, oh, I've got this idea for a seen, and I stick it, you know, in the chapter where I know that needs to be, I love being able to do that. So when I get to that chapter, it's already sitting there waiting for me, but I do.

Jesper (37m 54s):
Yeah. Or, and the court board and script. And that has what looks like sticky note. So that probably nicer as well.

Autumn (37m 58s):
You were thinking of me. But I also, I read, I definitely agree. I always had this rule that if I had only been sitting down for 15 minutes and I was stuck, I couldn't leave. I couldn't leave until I hit that 15 minute or 20 minute mark. I had to at least try to write and work on my story for those 15 to 20 minutes. Cause it is your brain is like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go to Facebook. I don't want to do this. I wanted to go do something else. But if you can get into it, you'll usually push past that and keep writing. And sometimes I would need to not be, we work with exactly what I thought I was going to write on the story, but I'd have to sink into the character

Jesper (38m 37s):
head saying, okay, what does the character seeing right now?

Autumn (38m 39s):
Was it raining? Is that what, you know, just kinda pull myself up into the story and it may end up cutting out of that stuff. Maybe they're all be bits. I keep because it's a really good description and really places, you know, the reader into the character's head. But I have to admit if I have been there for 15, 20 minutes and I have put in an honest effort and I haven't been jumping off to Facebook or something, I agree sometimes just saying, what else can I do? I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to let this sit because sometimes that's all you can do. However, I will admit there was a time I was working on two projects in tandem and I thought it was fantastic because I would write like, I'd have a goal of four chapters in one and just half a chapter and the other one.

Autumn (39m 20s):
And if I hit those glitches where it's like, oh my gosh, I can not think what happens next. This character is not flowing. Especially that story. You had a politician and I've talked about that before. I don't do politician. Well, it was so hard to write in his voice, but then I could, so I could switch to the other one saying, okay, I'm gonna do that half chapters and jumping between them. I worked very well, but I have written over a trilogy at this point. And it was not a fresh out of, you know, gay. I have earned my little Stripe's and I knew that I could do it. And I only stuck to both of those and I managed to continue and get it done.

Autumn (40m 0s):
So it works. So if you have a blog maybe or short stories or Vela is a good thing. And as long as they were in the same vain and you don't switch two new ideas where you actually can have two side-by-side like parallel projects and one's your main project, but maybe you're going to write a quick Vella story. You to go with it, to get some new reader interests that can work. Sometimes. I don't know. Maybe if you're brain is like mind on a squirrel in cocaine, that we will work really, really well for you.

Jesper (40m 30s):
You, if you work, so you speeding up and down to three trees of carrying sticky notes and putting sticky notes on today, my name and sign this tree it's all right.

Autumn (40m 42s):
Now, you know what my brain looks like.

Jesper (40m 46s):
And also you hit did too. What we were just talking about. I think pro athletes, for example, they, they often visualize the outcome that they want so that they visuali visualizing their case. For example, what does it feel like to cross the finish line as number one or whatever, if it's a running or if it's a soccer game, which I like a lot than visualizing, how does it feel? Or how does the whole curve in the air when I score the goal and stuff like that. Right? But if you are, if you haven't proved to yourself that you can finish work yet, and you were in that rod of things where you have a bit stuck and you can't quite figure out how to move ahead and you really wanted to jump to that new project, because it sounds so much exciting right now than this I'm grateful, middle of the novel you are stuck in, then that I think, try to copy a bit what this pro athletes do, try to visualize in your mind, what will it feel like once I have the novel done, how will I feel about it?

Jesper (41m 55s):
And then hang on to that feeling. All right. And try to channel that feeling into forcing yourself to actually write it, because you know that by the end of it, I'm going to get to this place where I know how good it feels. And that's another way that you can try to trick your mind to battle that challenge that you have facing. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think sometimes just give you the energy to push through some of those really tough chapters to say,

Autumn (42m 22s):
okay, you know, especially with like the seven steps of story structure, all can stuck in the reaction phase, but how cool is it going to be when I get to write that, that horrible scene of, of, you know, that dark moment that happens with flips the whole SI you know, a whole book and, you know, you, when you start thinking, okay, what's it gonna feel like we finally get to write the climax in this big, wonderful thing that happens then that can keep you going as well, especially when you realize what it's going to feel like they finish it in the, and when you speak a visualization, I made me think sometimes having a writing session, sometimes you get so stuck and bogged down in the intricacies of each chapter, that beginning and ending a writing session session with an eye, you know, a quick look over your synopsis or blurb, or your two sentences that kind of where your theme for the novel step back and make sure you're still on track and remember, oh, well, this is what this story is about and get yourself excited about the whole arc of it.

Autumn (43m 16s):
Again, sometimes that could help get you going as well.

Jesper (43m 21s):
Very true. And I have another one and it might sound a bit weird at first, but there is a logic to the madness here. The thing is that, that you might actually want, if you feel like keeping the flow is a challenge for you, you might want to try out dictation. Oh, and I know the default reaction have many people is like, know, thank you. I don't want to dictate anything. That's crazy and fine. Yes. You might say that. We act, we did actually, by the way, have a podcast episode in the past about dictation.

Jesper (44m 3s):
So you can go and search that one out. If, if, if you want to hear more about how to go about the dictation, but my point about it this morning, that dictating your story will increase. You're writing speed significantly. And sometimes when you have things to keep, you know, pulling you off, ah, and distracting you or interrupting your flow, if you can just churn out of the chapters quicker, you will also just get the riding out of their way. In the sense of that, then you are going to prevent those things from interrupting you because you already got the writing done 'cause you can dictate a ton more faster than you can ever write.

Jesper (44m 44s):
So that something you might wanna try out just to see if it worked for you, go I'll, I'll go back and listened to that. The passed episode that we have on dictation and get some good tips and guidelines from, from that episode and then go and test it out and see if that works for you. Yes. I know. Just like before we talked about all outlining, don't say no to something you haven't tried. I agree. It's like talking to kids, isn't it . And until you did that, you tasted it.

Autumn (45m 12s):
All right. I know. Fake spitting it out. It just because you have to think you're right. I know. I think you have to have a little bit of a logical brain for dictation, but again, I think anyone can learn to do it, and it really does help get ideas down very quickly. And so they have a spot. I think it's very useful. And I think just to wrap up, because I mentioned that story flow is also the reader's experience. So how to make a book that maybe took you a year, year and a half, even longer to write sound like a cohesive whole. I hate to say that the big tip is editing. Make sure you self edit. I would say, do I like content editing before you proofread, read the whole thing, get maybe an alpha reader to read the whole thing and point out of the places where things are out of line and out of junk, especially if you don't know how to do it, if you know, that's your first book and you've really, you can't see the forest for the trees, get an alpha, we have to get a mentor, find that content editor.

Autumn (46m 9s):
I have them look at it over and they will point out to places where things aren't kind of kicked off a little bit. That way the reader doesn't go. Okay, did we start a different story? You halfway through this, a different author picked up. Occasionally I do find books like that, but it's usually not as bad as the author things, but it definitely only comes about by editing because only if you were like one of those really crazy productive authors who can sit down and write 50,000 to 80,000 words in a single week. None of that, I mean, we were both professionals and the I've never had that kind of level of, they don't know if I know, I don't know if I didn't enjoy it. I think that's beyond my enjoyment of writing.

Autumn (46m 49s):
And I still wanna kind of have fun playing with words. So I'm never gonna write quite that fast 'cause I don't want too. So that's why you edit.

Jesper (46m 59s):
That's why.

Autumn (46m 60s):
Well, I love writing. I just don't want to write a hundred thousand words in a week. That's just know fun. You, you get to spend time with your characters that way two months that'd be good, but that's fine. Yeah.

Jesper (47m 10s):
Well, if I could, I probably would.

Autumn (47m 16s):
That's crazy.

Jesper (47m 17s):
But I think based on this conversation, at least what we can conclude is that there isn't one magic bullet to resolve this situation and be looking for a magic bullet that feels like something said before about being that there isn't one,

Autumn (47m 34s):
there doesn't know magic beans, but were still looking, but definitely know magic bullets know.

Jesper (47m 40s):
And I think we can also conclude is that we are all different and that's okay. And I think based on the things that we covered here, the main takeaway is probably that maybe we set something that inspired you, that you want to go and try it. If you feel like maintaining that story flow is a difficult thing than maybe try one of the things we said, and maybe something sort of clicked with you. And then there's some of the other one's we mentioned might not, and that's fine, then you leave those alone. But I, I think we all have different, so yeah, you would have to find your own way.

Autumn (48m 21s):
Exactly.

Jesper (48m 21s):
All right. So next Monday we'll be looking at pre-sales versus pre orders. What's the difference And is one better than the other.

Narrator (48m 32s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/AmWriting Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 136 – Top 10 Worst Characters EVER!

It's time for one of Autumn and Jesper's very entertaining episodes.

This time they have prepared competing lists of the WORST characters they've ever encountered in either works of fiction or movies and TV series.

Tune in to episode 136 of the Am Writing Fantasy and judge who you think have the best of the worst listed.

As mentioned during the episode a massive discount for the premium writing course and worldbuilding course will be offered to those on the email list. If you want to get your hands on the discount voucher, make sure to sign up right away. Here's the direct link: https://www.subscribepage.com/awfnewsletter

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than in 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (29s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (32s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This episode 136 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And you know, I always love these top 10 episodes.

Autumn (45s):
Oh, they are definitely some of the most fun ones that we recorded. I have to admit that I'm rather enjoyed them as well. And today we've created two competing lists, five entries, each of the Worst Characters EVER. And I just confessed to you before we started recording that if it wasn't for a sheer chance of luck, I mean, I meant to go into where we keep our podcast list and check it sooner, but kind of checked out this morning because we have another reason. And I made me realize that like, oh, I have to come up with five characters. So I kind of queried my parents.

Autumn (1m 26s):
So, oh my God, I cheated. None of them are actually helpful, but they helped get my mind going as well as the last minute panic, that always helps us procrastinators. So, so you don't probably relate to that, but yeah, I feel my list is pretty solid. I even put it in order, so I'm ready. I'm ready.

Jesper (1m 54s):
Okay. Okay. Well, I com very, very prepared. So I have some really annoyed characters that I can't wait to do.

Autumn (2m 3s):
I'm guessing here them, you knowing what you've come prepared with.

Jesper (2m 7s):
Yeah. So of course I had some sound clips because it makes it a little funnier to listen to all the podcasts listeners as well.

Autumn (2m 14s):
So one day I swear, I will come prepared enough to have emailed you some sound clips to play for me. What I ask you, that will be pretty cool, but that would be M I deserve a cooky if I do know, but I already feel bad about it because the last time we had the top 10 last month, yeah.

Jesper (2m 33s):
You came really prepared and you, and of course, I do like to know when the S lists and the last month you came so prepared that I was a bit nervous already from the start of that. I have a better list of you, but now that you are saying, you, you only realize that this morning, I feel much better already.

Autumn (2m 52s):
Hey, yeah. We'll have the sea I'm so curious have,

Jesper (2m 55s):
well, I actually, I have one on my list that I think he'll have as well, and he has a mention for me.

Autumn (3m 3s):
Okay. I'm curious to see if we end up with the same and I try to keep everything actually related to fantasy slash superhero. I tried to actually keep it all in general. So all that. So I didn't do that. I just thought of the most annoying characters I could think of. So I know almost dude, but I decide to go for the extra challenge of in John.

Jesper (3m 24s):
Okay. Okay. Well that is pretty cool. I will admit that, but it also means that all this stuff probably not overlap well, that's good, but ah, thank you for admitting.

Autumn (3m 33s):
I did extra late minute, last minute homework.

Jesper (3m 36s):
So, oh yeah. That, that, that's pretty cool. You are in a few points for that, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well that that's all right. So I already start the head. That's all that matters. So things over their, for you. Well, good. We have 30 degrees this weekend. We know that Celsius in 86, 90 Fahrenheit, something like that. Yeah. So we spent the entire Saturday at the beach and that was pretty varied because we do with the new apartment, we lived like a hundred meters from the beach. So it was that that's pretty lovely. But I also have to admit that we actually are starting to wish to move back into a house.

Autumn (4m 19s):
Well, I bet I've surely a small part, but as much as it's nice to have that closer to the ocean, there's nothing living in a small cabin as I do. I would give anything for like my own office space and to be able to close a door and stuff like that.

Jesper (4m 34s):
So yeah, I know. I'm sure you're feeling the pinch right now. I am the, that, there's just a, I mean the, the, the neighbor or the area here is really nice, but it's, there's just not enough space in here in this apartment. So, but, but we had a building plot in, in mind this well where we all want to build new housing, but actually some new challenges of surfaced because the city council start to make plans about putting a road right next to the place where we, we want to build a house. So that's not good. Know there is a town hall meeting this Thursday. So I'll attempt that and try to learn a bit more.

Jesper (5m 15s):
But if they do end up building the road where they talking about billing road at the end, that there's no decision made yet, but that's what they're talking about. But if they do do that, then, well, we need to find the alternatives. And honestly, I don't know where that should be. So that at the end of the day, the challenge here is that we want to build a house close enough for the kids to be able to go to school, you know, by themselves, are you using the bicycle or something like that? And if you get too far away, that's not no longer possible. Right? So that limits sort of our options, but it's just, it's just politicians being weird. 'cause this particular route where they apply that they're talking about building the road, what's actually looked at like three years back and it was discarded as a possible route road back then, because it goes straight through a forest where there's also an endangered species of bats living.

Jesper (6m 13s):
So write. And then all of the sudden the politician sorta put it back under the table and say, well, let's build a road there. And then of course, a lot of people started complaining because there's also people living in that area already on one thing is of course the endangered species. But the other thing is that it goes straight past the neighborhood where people live, right? So people started complaining and then the M the mayor of this town, she was like, wondering why, why is people complaining about this road? And the, I mean, nobody has ever, ever said that it was a problem before and so on and so on. And it's like, well, maybe that nobody's complaining 'cause this was this God of three years ago. So nobody thought it would ever happen, but I don't know.

Jesper (6m 55s):
This has just politicians being politicians. All right. Well, you make no sense or they're an alien species. That's why we never talked politics. That's true. We don't want to go there. I know. Right. How about you? How are things going on your side of the Atlantic?

Autumn (7m 16s):
Oh, it's been good. It was fun. My husband came home for like a week and a couple of days, and he's back off to a rafting guiding. And actually he even ref guided when he was here at a place, it was only 45 minutes south. So I got to see him before he ran off again, all of a sudden, but we've had some beautiful weather. It was like a perfect week where it was just in the seventies. Cool enough Knights that you actually need a blanket. And it was lovely. And then, you know, as soon as you left it, like hit the high eighties with super huge high humidity. It felt like, it felt like when I was in Mexico in the times, I've traveled to like Mexico in Acapulco, in Costa Rica where you wake up in the morning and the CSR has still.

Autumn (7m 59s):
And so that humidity off the ocean is just sitting on top of you. And you're like, oh my gosh, I can't imagine what it's going to be like at three in the afternoon. But by then the sea breeze kicks up and it's so much better. But those mornings where everything is still and damp, when you hold up a piece of paper and it kind of goes, whew, it's fin it's, it's just damp. I've always wanted to live on a sailboat. And I said, I won't ever get another sailboat. Cause I've had too in my life. And I went once a third, but I said, I wouldn't get one until I can live on it and travel on it. And so as much as I want to there's days make up that humid.

Jesper (8m 38s):
And you're like, oh, I don't know if I could do this 24 7.

Autumn (8m 44s):
No, we actually, we got that problem solved. After traveling for four years across the country, we have repeaters and cell phone towers. If you are sailing in the middle of the ocean, well, that's in the middle of the ocean. Most of the time you are around land though. That's only like a one to two week window. So that I'm not that worried about those times. You do too many crossings.

Jesper (9m 4s):
Oh my God. I would never want to live on a boat. I'm where two luxury minded to do this. One of my couch, all of those things.

Autumn (9m 12s):
And shower's, and you could have, you just have the download the Netflix before you go, and then he can just binge watch. So that as well, the other person's at the tiller. Yeah, but still there's no showers and this again, so it has a good, but how shower?

Jesper (9m 29s):
Yeah. If you have a luxury boats, maybe that most of the sail boats I have been on, I wouldn't go for it or anything that can cross the Atlantic has got to have a shower, even if your, on the back. So that's what it is that you want to have ahead and a bathroom.

Autumn (9m 45s):
So I, I think my adventure itch honestly, is acting up a little bit. I've been good ever since my husband got back from whitewater rafting and lost like 20 pounds, we've been getting up even earlier. I mean, he's getting up at like four 30 and I'm getting up about 5, 5, 15 in the morning. And every other day I get to go for a run. And the next day I usually do some yoga in some stretch exercises. And I am feeling so much better. Suddenly I'm feeling much better. And all my gosh, I just want to go hiking again. I want to a, I want to get all my motorcycle, which we don't have here. Cause we don't have enough room for it and I wanted to sell those.

Jesper (10m 22s):
So I think that if you have Kevin fever, all the, all the editing and you're just sitting around and, and Kevin editing books all the time, you are drawing.

Autumn (10m 31s):
I mean, I have gotten some wonderful and working on some wonderful M book covers and fantasy map. So that's lovely. But at, I love every day I wake up and think, oh, I'm so lucky I get to do this, but I have to admit, you know, they just opened up the Inca trail and as a new trail down in Peru, I want to do so. I don't like, we need to get those out of my system sometime soon. Or I'm going to just send you a note saying, run off to and talk me through and I'll see if they have a VPN down there, but the otherwise see you, you sounds good.

Narrator (11m 8s):
Oh, we go all the internet with the yam Writing Fantasy Podcast,

Jesper (11m 13s):
We have something quite exciting to mention. Mmm. And I don't know, perhaps it's the summer heat getting to us all the cabin fever or something like that, who knows, but at something, something is getting too. And if you work out what it is, let us know because we don't know how the sales, but you send me more. Yeah. What we decided to offer everyone on our email list, a massive discount to be used on either of our two flagship courses. Yeah. So within the next three to four weeks or thereabouts, we are going to email out a voucher code giving probably I think it's going to be 150 off the, off our two courses.

Jesper (11m 59s):
Yeah. Maybe you could just explain a bit about what are these two courses that you just don't know that I always like to drive, stuff like that all on you. And you're like how you build a website. So you talk about it.

Narrator (12m 10s):
These are our two premium courses. So we have the ultimate fantasy writer's guide, which is our first one. We put, well, actually M what's in the name of our first one we put out, but this is our first premium one we put out. And it is a 12 module, complete course of knowledge of how to develop an idea and right. Well, but then how to edit market, build a platform, how to format, how to upload to Amazon because, oh my gosh, have you have not done that yet?

Autumn (12m 38s):
There's times where it's not that hard, but the first time it's like, well, there was a lot of what, what is this? I got to Google what they're talking about. So it covers all of that and then how to keep growing your author platform. So that's a one-stop shop, everything that you need to know about developing an author business and becoming a writer, which I think that's a pretty good start for courses. But then we decided we wanted to do a world-building course. And this is a, this is the one that you've been following along. And the podcast that took us oh, two and a half years. Yeah. It was massive. Massive, which I don't want to say that because I don't want people to be like afraid of taking the course, of course, oh my God, this massive, it's massive.

Autumn (13m 21s):
It's actually wonderful. And incredibly well organized. And you don't have to do every video. There's like these optional places and extra information. And it's just wonderful. I mean, it takes you from again, the Colonel of you, how to start with the current, all of the story, you can develop one as you do it, but it helps you develop a world. Worldbuilding a story along with the world that the two are intertwined and inseparable and unique and just wonderful. And that it teaches you, you know, all the components you need to build that world to fit the story so that you don't get lost with worlds builders, disease, or just lost in your own world for six years, we, we try to not have to be too bad, actually.

Autumn (14m 3s):
That's well, I guess if it's a portal there and it's a world where you can at least be an avatar that could kick, but that would be a good option. Pretty good at that would to cure my itchy feet. And actually, so if anyone that has a little bit of sitting around letting me know, but otherwise you can take the course and learn to build a world and develop your story and all the components so that when you're done, you know, we have an amazing world. You have a story that you are ready to write, to go with it. And then the final modules actually go into how to weave the two together without info dumping, how to bring the story to life in different ways so that you can really engage the reader.

Autumn (14m 47s):
And I think that if you're a writer and you are worldbuilding and you just really want to bring out something amazing, I think it's a fantastic course. We have used it and test, we ran it ourself for our world have Alyssa, so we know how it works and it's pretty darn good. So those are two primary courses and it'll teach you everything like creating cultures, creating history, creating groups in Coles and gills and the magic systems and maps. Everything is so we did.

Jesper (15m 17s):
So. Yeah. So if any of that interests you and you would like a massive discount, then we will include a link in the show notes that from where you can just add in your email address, because then you're going to get on our email list.

Autumn (15m 33s):
And then you're also going to get that email. When we send out the voucher code, you can simply use that one and get the course at a very low price.

Jesper (15m 43s):
That's pretty cool.

Autumn (15m 45s):
I think that's fantastically cool. Yeah. We must be a little crazy this summer.

Jesper (15m 50s):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened, but the thing is that these courses are self-paced as well. So you can dip in and out as you please, and you can of course do it from the safety of your own home

Narrator (16m 4s):
Now onto today's topic.

Jesper (16m 8s):
So we agreed that this top 10 list of the worst case, the characters ever B from the books that we read, or it could also be from movies we've seen.

Autumn (16m 23s):
And that probably also means that since we're not going with some of the past top 10 list, we made, we create something completely made up. In this case, we are actually using characters that exist either in written works or in movie. So that means that may be some listeners. Will it disagree with us here? All them?

Jesper (16m 40s):
I think that they might.

Autumn (16m 42s):
I, yeah, I know it was funny cause I did Google some other list and there was a few characters. I was like, you know that character, I hate that. So I expect some disagreement. I expect someone to say, no, no, no, there are Worst Characters, but these are the ones that are near or not. So near and dear to my heart, I suppose I, I chose ones that were worse for a variety of reasons, maybe a little illustrative of some points. And so I went kind of along those lines. So their worst for not just their actions or just poor acting, I avoided poor acting just to give people a break.

Autumn (17m 22s):
And I have to admit, I didn't choose any book ones just because of the character. Was that bad. I most likely didn't finish the book unless they were just like a tertiary character in the background. And I promptly just erase them from my mind.

Jesper (17m 36s):
And that's when normally deal with these top 10 list. We are trying to come up with the best worst list. But in the end we also have to work out who actually won all them.

Autumn (17m 48s):
All right. Well have to see which one we came up with that I remember I got some bonus points for sticking to genre. So I'm already ahead.

Jesper (17m 55s):
As we get off the started off the gate, you said a small bonus point, but I can hear you all the way to make it like into boneless points.

Autumn (18m 6s):
I did. So we can hear that. So this is what happens in you gave Kyla Fe anything.

Jesper (18m 13s):
Yeah, that, that is true. But we also, I think you, even though I try to prepare, well for this episode, M I also have to say that that was actually quite hard because I wanted to try to find characters that were so bad that they basically made me want to stop watching the movie or the series.

Autumn (18m 36s):
So when it's that bad, you know, that you've got the worst of the worst, but on the other hand, it was also pretty difficult to find the ones that are truly that bad.

Jesper (18m 47s):
Yes. I agree. I've watched some really bad movies, as we've mentioned in previous podcasts on worst list where I, I binge watched all over the streets, signs theater 2000. You're like, why did you brought your brain with those? But they were fantastically horrible, but yeah, defying characters. And especially to you then to try to remember these characters that I absolutely let you know, spark some kind of level of hate where I didn't just forget them.

Autumn (19m 17s):
It actually wasn't that easy. But I think that there's a few worst characters I could have probably chosen if I thought longer, had more time, but I feel very satisfied with my list. It is the good illustrative example list.

Jesper (19m 36s):
OK. Well, I still feel like that because you weren't, that you have not as prepared as me. I, I have to say I have to win this one. Otherwise I'll feel disappointed, but we'll see how it goes. So, so who's starting out here with number five.

Autumn (19m 50s):
I think I started, or you started last time to be honest, which is unusual for , but I'm trying to be nice to you. So I guess that was my turn to go first, if you would like okay. T

Jesper (20m 3s):
han, than come with your number five.

Autumn (20m 5s):
All right. I'll have at it. So my least of the worst is actually Sabrina Spellman from the chilling adventures of Sabrina, which is a Netflix remake from the books of Sabrina, the teenage witch.

Jesper (20m 22s):
Ah, and I said, it's that new one? Is it is the new, I heard some very bad things about this series. Yeah, cool.

Autumn (20m 31s):
I chose her, but honestly the entire cast, again, not for the acting, but for the roles and the plot and just all there were just so pathetic except for two characters that were two, I actually liked, which was in bros and prudence. And there's a part in the second series, which I began watching and that it was just so bad. I turned it off saying, I never want to see this again. But there was a point where they were tagged teeing off to go and hunt down the former head teacher eval dude. And I'm like, Darren, that I could watch a spin off of the two of them as hunters.

Autumn (21m 12s):
You know, they were fantastic. But the rest of that, I was just rooting for more deaths. I think more of them needed to talk to me so badly. I can't even get into what was horrible. It's just, it was so, so tropish, they're just teenagers make me, I don't know, but I really afford them. So it was just like annoying in the way that you couldn't put your finger on. Yeah. Just bad. The characters themselves we're in very deep, the smells were pathetic. Ah, the Forsythe was horrible. They make stupid mistakes just to keep the plot running.

Autumn (21m 52s):
Things were inconsistent about them from one episode to the next. And it was just so again, a lot of it was bad writing, but just there was no substance and there was nothing in the character I really wanted to root for. I didn't care if devil sucked her down to how it would have been fine. It would have been more interested. Maybe she would know, learn the lesson. I was so pathetic. There was a boyfriend that bounced back and forth in a really stupid love triangle that I just wanted to lb my head against the wall. She cured her best. Friend's Brian blindness. After not being able to cure it after curing it, not carrying it. I was just know, I couldn't guess it was a mess.

Jesper (22m 34s):
It wasn't that, that sounds a bit like, it, it almost sounds like a bit of like, it's the series that is bad.

Autumn (22m 40s):
And I mean the characters as well, but it sounds like the series as a whole, this just as bad as the character. Let's just say when the wrote, the second part of the series starts out that they're trying to go to hell to rescue Sabrina's boyfriend. And not only is it super easy to get into hell after a whole first season where they could never find the way there and demons were trying to rise up to earth and ends up like a doorway, they can go, but it ended up mimicking the wizard of Oz and all the way down to the tin man and the Lyon. And that's where I have said, no, just done done. If you lack of imagination, just know. And if anyone out there that likes it, just tell me why, because I don't care how bad it was.

Autumn (23m 25s):
Horrible, horrible writing, but you know, the characters too, the characters were just, they lacked any depth and I just couldn't do it.

Jesper (23m 37s):
Okay. Well, I have not watched that series, but now I know what, I'm not gonna watch that either double dog area. No, thank you.

Autumn (23m 47s):
Good answer. I did that to my husband once and he still blames me for getting sick off of a piece of chocolate. I told him he doesn't have to take the double dog, the air cheese.

Jesper (24m 0s):
Okay. So I haven't learned to find that as well. Yeah. You hear it. I'm going to stop out strong here. This character is the most irritating and up noxious character that I've ever come across. Well, this is gonna be good. Bad, good. That she was actually the first one I thought of for my list here today. She truly made me want to stop watching. Wow. And you've probably watched friends all from have a you, I have, it's been years. I am not a friend's worshiper.

Jesper (24m 43s):
Unfortunately. Fortunately, if you, if you can remember, what is the worst character in the cast of friends that you can think of?

Autumn (24m 52s):
Maybe Phoebe, I know it's been so long. You listened to this sound clip. And then just telling me that this was not annoying. All right.

Character 1 (25m 2s):
The me Chandler bang. Oh no, I don't seek me out something deep in your so called out to me. Like, you want me, you hate me. You can't live without me. And you know, it, you just don't no, you know it so

Jesper (25m 34s):
Well, that is Janice. Littmann from my friend and from friends and my, that character is just so incredibly annoying. It's that meeting.

Autumn (25m 43s):
I can honestly say I do not remember watching an episode with her in it. So obviously I did not watch all the episodes, but that, that actually reminds me if I show that again, I'd probably could of used that character, but I can't remember the name of the show. It has been. So white-listed from my brain and despair, my S entity. Right?

Jesper (26m 6s):
So at what else? She, well, she was just so incredibly annoying, but it's like both the way she speaks and she is so stupid as well. She has. And does you don't understand that the, the people don't know sort of like what she does and, and her laugh is so annoying that it's incredible and it's just made like that on purpose obviously, but it, it really works in the sense that I have to come up with list of characters that actually make me want to stop watching. That was her CHITAS she's annoying. So I think that is a pretty good stat for number five, but that is a pretty good start for now have five, like you said, it does it remind me now we have some show. I did watch, he had the character, had that exact same accent.

Jesper (26m 47s):
And that was kind of like, I'm not watching this, I don't care. I'm not doing it, but yeah, I know. I can't remember what it was. Sorry.

Autumn (26m 55s):
So I can't even bring up her name, but yeah, that's the, that's a pretty bad one.

Jesper (27m 1s):
Yeah, pretty bad.

Autumn (27m 2s):
Okay. So your number for my number four is actually syndrome from the Incredibles. I don't know if you watch that. So that's the animated cartoon. I love animation because I actually studied it when I lived in Manchester, UK. And So I just, that was the whole time stuff with paper and pencils and all my gosh, but they can do that with computers was amazing, but syndrome annoys me because I like powerful villains with cold hearts and decisive actions. And he's just nothing. He is still, and he's got a good backstory, but even up until the present day, when he was trying to kill off superheroes, he's doing it because he is the whiny little kid who wants to be a superhero in just isn't good enough.

Autumn (27m 46s):
And he's still not good enough. And he dies stupidly and it's just blah, but it's just not so much. It's not what I want in the villain. And I think when you have a really bad villain that it ruins a lot of the story, a lot of that you could have a really fantastic character. And if they're up against a squishy Villa and you're like what, you're wasting them. So I just found syndrome just pathetic. Hmm. Okay. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know it, but, but it is important that we, we have talked about over and over again, the importance of having strong villains. So it definitely destroys the story of there's just this really both week.

Jesper (28m 30s):
So annoying the villain. And I could say something about a villain in the last star wars movies, but I'm probably not going to go there because then somebody will jump on the and kill me. So we do not touch start wars secret.

Autumn (28m 45s):
Okay. So let's go on to your number four of them.

Jesper (28m 49s):
Okay. Now, before I have another clip repaired here.

Autumn (28m 52s):
Oh, of course.

Jesper (28m 53s):
Yes, of course. I have a clip from all five. Of course its going to bring home victory bonus points. Yeah. The way that sort of a, I actually canceled out of your bone is pointing. Gives that to me. I think,

Autumn (29m 9s):
I don't think so. Lets hear.

Jesper (29m 11s):
Okay. So in this scene, one of my favorite characters of this show has just been picked up by the character that I really don't like. So are you going to hear of a male voice and a woman in this clip and the it's the woman that I don't like.

Autumn (29m 30s):
Okay.

Jesper (29m 30s):
But I'll explain it afterwards. So you have just listened to it. I don't think you can guess who this is to be honest, but just to have a list and I'll explain

Character 2 (29m 42s):
The walking for days, thank God you came alone, but are you going to America, New York? He's yours. This is the one of going family there. I know

Jesper (30m 1s):
We need to find this man Dr. Sue rest, or you know what series that is from know I do not that doesn't ring a bell at all now it's from heroes and how has it? Yeah. And so I don't know if I have watched that now, but you say that well, that's actually a pretty good series'. So in this scene and the male voice is Skylar, who is like a really like bad-ass character. And I really like him and he's just been picked up by this woman called Maya and M Maya is just like the opposite of skylight.

Jesper (30m 45s):
And that the problem I have with her is that she always comes across as so incredibly helpless and she's never able to sort of work out herself what's she supposed to do with it. So she always depends on the other characters to sort of take her hand and lead her down the path of wherever whatever's gonna happen. And of course at the same thing applies to in our writing a you don't want to see characters that doesn't know how to think for themselves because those characters just so annoying. And I really got quite worked up this my character and to be honest. And so you just ruined every single episode she was in than unfortunately, and the latest season she's in their quite a lot.

Autumn (31m 32s):
And that's funny you say that. Cause a lot of that, the list that I saw, they listed a different character. Jenny Wisley was actually listed quite a lot for the exact same reasons. It's like she never does anything. Her like biggest fame is that she marries Harry Potter for whatever reason. And no one's like she cast spells in the entire show. She breaks into the chamber of secrets and they find her sleeping on the floor. I mean, she's just the static. And so that was a huge reader, no know to have the character that is just never manages to stand up on her or his own two feet that we indeed, and that it's so annoying to watch or read for that matter.

Jesper (32m 18s):
It's just like that again. And I think Maya is that like this in my era character, who is the perfect example of what I don't want in characters. So let's say that the top hop number too. So that's pretty, or the number four I should say. All right. So I was only in number four. I still have the ones left. So the blowing you out all the water and only just started.

Autumn (32m 40s):
Wow. So think, all right, you ready from my number three then?

Jesper (32m 44s):
Yep.

Autumn (32m 44s):
So this one, I didn't even have any problem thinking of it's a character. I really don't like, and that is Bella's Swan from the Twilight series.

Jesper (32m 57s):
Oh my gosh.

Autumn (32m 58s):
So you agree then?

Jesper (32m 60s):
So I did not put her on my and this, but I could have yes,

Autumn (33m 4s):
I despised her and I mean, not just the movies, I read the books and I read the books purposely because they were so popular and I wanted them to know why, you know, what in the writing was so right. And I read the books despite Bella Swan, because I absolutely hated her. She was just, I don't even know where to start, but she needed a big dose of like growing up really fast, being a lot less, less self absorbed stuff. Wishy washy over Edward versus, oh the nine. You can't remember the name of that, Jacob. Yeah. Yeah. I know it just and what was worst for the books in the movie?

Autumn (33m 46s):
You could almost put up with it because the character's, you know, it's a movie you're watching things. That's a little less internal. The books is written in first-person and so you are literally in her head for three quarters of a novel and it's just the novels. I read the whole series. Oh, it's just, you feel icky. I'm sorry. I have felt icky after reading her chapters, I was just, you know, dunk me in an ocean so I can clean myself off. I did not like her at all. No one actually, you know, saying that it is slightly strange to think about 'cause we talk a lot about the importance of making good characters in, how, how do you make of characters and what makes them likable and how it's important and so on.

Autumn (34m 29s):
And then when you think of something like bill, this one and how massive the success that Ceres has been, the main character that is not likable at all. And that, that is a bit counter intuitive. I don't understand that to me. Well, I know obviously there's a lot of people who either relate to her or a, like the ropes of this series despite her, but oh, I don't know her. So we're going to get a lot of listeners on our back here for just like that. That was used to use characters ever. But if you think she is Y tell me what about her resonates with you? Because admittedly, I was a tomboy. I have motorcycles. I played with matchboxes.

Autumn (35m 9s):
I don't get the whole, I've never been romantic, like oohing over someone my entire life. That may be my husband, but I don't get it. I don't get her at all. She makes me want to smack her upside the head and tell her to grow up and you know, go and dig a ditch in Africa and we'll talk later.

Jesper (35m 29s):
Well, that is a good number three. All of them. I can agree with that one.

Autumn (35m 34s):
You put for me that that's the point.

Jesper (35m 36s):
That's okay. That's a good one.

Autumn (35m 39s):
Thank you.

Jesper (35m 39s):
Okay. Number three, here is email more annoying than Jen is Littmann. Oh, so this is a bit of a blast from the past and you can probably recognize it because I think there's a good chance that you also like me watched the series growing up. Okay. Well, I tried to watch it because back then we didn't have any streaming services. So you watched whatever was on TV. And yet, even though this was the only thing that was on this character annoyed me so much that I would rather do nothing than watching more of this series. So I'm just going to play this little sound clip here.

Jesper (36m 21s):
And I think you might be able to guess it is.

Character 3 (36m 31s):
Would you look at this? You know, I think Ms. Ellie had this wallpaper in south fork.

Jesper (36m 38s):
Okay, I'm going to stop it. There is, oh, I can't take how loud and annoying her voice is. I can you recognize that?

Autumn (36m 46s):
I recognize it and I cannot think of the show, but I do recognize it.

Jesper (36m 53s):
I have seen it in the cities as you tell me, like, oh yeah, it's the non-issue right. It's it's from,

Autumn (37m 1s):
oh, that's right. Oh, she is so annoying,

Jesper (37m 4s):
but it's not only her nasal voice that makes this character really annoying. It's also that constant relationship building between her character and Mr. Scheffel that just shot of it goes up and I know the down and blah, blah, blah. And the round and round, it's just getting on my nerves.

Autumn (37m 20s):
It's like, when it's like plotted off of a soap opera where it's like today, you don't take Tuesday and it's all just please make up your mind. Either love each other. We hate each other. We don't do both. It's so annoying, but that is really, really fight that character. And I'm also starting to think that you don't like that New York, New Jersey accent, but maybe I'm wrong.

Jesper (37m 41s):
Maybe. I don't know. I have never thought about that, but maybe, I don't know.

Autumn (37m 44s):
I, at least I say that because I know my husband a, that is an accent. He's got a Boston Kennedy accent and he says, cause and stuff like that. So it's about the opposite of New York. They have a good rivalry with New York. Boston does. So he's pointed out at quite a lot of like that. So that she's definitely annoying. Why are you ready for that? I don't know if you watched this series yet, but Sheldon Samson, AKA utopia in Jupiter's legacy, which is a new Netflix one. So you don't watch a lot of superheros ones. So I didn't think you would watch this one, but if you don't like superhero movies in this has a very good back story and I actually really enjoy the in series, but he, the archetypical character of he's just a bit too, God-fearing a bit too pro USA.

Autumn (38m 48s):
Democracy loves you, you know, just how he's too perfect. He's too rigid. He's just too, this is the way things have to be in. And this has democracy and we're going to protect it. And we're going to allow what people to make horrible choices and not take that away from them because they're allowed to make free choices. And it's just like gagged me so that I can not take, I would definitely, I've always joked. I would be a super villain, but I'd probably do something good. It ended up being one of the superheroes, but I just can't take that level of patriotic, red, white, and blue. And I'm American. I'm just know gray.

Autumn (39m 27s):
There is so pure. And I have like characters with flaws. I'd like characters with doubts. I like characters that question. I love this clever, clever character. And when you're that Ridgid, you're not clever. Or you just see with blinders on. And I just don't like them. And there's a couple of characters that I could of used for this one. Jean grey in X-Men it's very similar. She's like the way to goody two-shoes captain America. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it seems like it's a superhero trope where you have the perfect one. I mean his name utopia. It's just know, I, I just can't do that. I want flaws.

Autumn (40m 8s):
I want weaknesses, not weaknesses that you're just so perfect. And you're upset. The rest of the world can not match your perfection.

Jesper (40m 17s):
Yeah know, I agree. And it's, it's so tough because we were talking so much about the is a very important like characters or the, the importance of making a good characters in them. And then we come up with a ton of these are really annoying ones, but yes, there are out of the word though.

Autumn (40m 46s):
Okay. Your number too.

Jesper (40m 50s):
Yeah. So This is, well, this next one is one of those characters where I just couldn't wait for another character to kill him.

Autumn (41m 0s):
It sounds like my number one. And I wonder if we we'll have a match. He's a real little Pete that is exceedingly statistic.

Jesper (41m 11s):
Okay. This may be, imagine. So it sounds like my name is one of the worst and also most unlikeable characters that I can think of.

Autumn (41m 19s):
Okay. I can't wait to hear this.

Jesper (41m 22s):
And I also found on the internet that ranker, you know, that the internet service that sort of ranks different things, they actually did an online poll asking who the most hated character in T V history was at this character was by file on the top of that list. Oo. All right. So he is a spoiled Brett that makes my life miserable for everyone else. And why don't I just play the clip here? And then you can tell me who this is.

Autumn (41m 52s):
All right.

character 4 (41m 53s):
My mother wishes me. Join the Knights, watch stripped all the titles and polished. You would solve the room in Pomona in takes up on my lady, sons. I was begged mercy for her father, but that have a soft hots of woman. So long as I have your king tree's in shall never go on punished. So in and bring me in my head.

Jesper (42m 27s):
That is right. Yes I can. 'cause this one is my number one. So it said free marathon.

Autumn (42m 35s):
Yes. Oh yeah. That was when you said, you said oil brats make everyone's life. Hell yup. Rooting for him to di oh, we could not die painfully in fast enough.

Jesper (42m 48s):
Yeah. But actually very honest. And I'm very being very honest here. All right. It is very, very rarely wear. I have watched a series where I actually like, not like, oh, it would be nice if this character disappeared or you sort of, but actually rooting for somebody to kill him.

Autumn (43m 7s):
I can remember almost that ever happening until this character showed up and game of Thrones Christ he's in my husband said I almost the exact same thing. He's like, he loves game of Thrones, which is really cool because he doesn't watch a lot of fantasy with me. And except for that. So he's like, what's, that was over once Jeffrey was gone, he was good. And we almost started watching and again, and he's just like, as long as we skip those episodes with T take him knowing what was coming. And for me, I had to say that he's, he's definitely the worst, but this, this serious and Ramsay we're also too.

Autumn (43m 47s):
And the show where I was like, duh, duh, duh, duh. You know, you have to be horrible ends as fast or as slow as possible. You know?

Jesper (43m 57s):
I agree. But, but, but that was, I agree. Ramsey was also somebody you, you rooted for him to die, but yes, but Ramsey was not in annoying in the same way I used to me ruthless. Yeah. He was just ruthless and he was not a nice character at all. And you certainly did not root for him whatsoever, but still, he was just not annoying in that same way. Whereas this character of, so I still remember the episode when he finally died, he was just like, yes, yes, yes. It was like watching a football. And that says something like we do instead itself when you're rooting for him, I think it was the character. It wasn't a real person rooting for their death because I give George RR Martin credit for making it character that you are like, oh, so every one of the world can get behind wanting this character that I have amazingly powerful for a Villa, a young villain.

Autumn (44m 52s):
You just fantastically horrible. You wanted him to die.

Jesper (44m 55s):
Yeah. So it was in unlike some of the other examples. It's excellent writing. Cause you really hate him. It was my number one.

Autumn (45m 3s):
Your number two. I can't imagine what your number one is.

Jesper (45m 7s):
Well, my number one is so bad. Well, I'm going to let you, since I was my number one, we can skip to yours.

Autumn (45m 13s):
And then if it isn't your number one, I have, like I said, a dishonorable mention.

Jesper (45m 20s):
Okay. All right. So my number one, and honestly I knew right away when I made this list that this character have to be the number one and he is worth worst than any of the other ones that I've mentioned.

Autumn (45m 31s):
Oh gosh. I can't imagine anything worse than Jeffrey.

Jesper (45m 35s):
Oh, just wait here. And I have to say as well though, I love this universe. I love these movies as do millions and millions of other people. All right. However, I am the only one who find this character incredibly irritating. Oh, let's hear it. He was originally designed to give some funny laughs. But instead he is just so incredibly simple minded and stupid that he becomes intolerable. Let me play this a couple of four.

Autumn (46m 12s):
You sounds good.

Jesper (46m 12s):
I'll try again. Maybe it didn't say. Hmm. Okay. Interesting. Oh no. I don't know. Let me fix it. Yeah. I can tell you. So

Character 5 (46m 28s):
I think that, can you tell your mommy, I love you. You almost got killed. We have brainless eyes. So the ability to speak does not make them intelligent that out of him know Mrs. Mrs. In our humble seven. Oh my God. I love you so much.

Jesper (46m 45s):
I know. It's it just keeps playing how annoying it that you can't stop it and know.

Autumn (46m 54s):
Oh, you're right. So yes. I saw the judge of things on so many lists as just hated, hated, hated him for everything from his character, his idiocy too, the cultural appropriation of what they based it on.

Jesper (47m 11s):
And yeah, people hate our banks with that passion. I started checking in with a passion as well. I still think he is just so incredibly annoying that the all most destroys like, so I love this star wars movies, but at this character almost destroys those movies where he's in.

Autumn (47m 30s):
Oh my God. Yeah. He's he's incredibly painful. I think one person had one redeeming quality sing. At least your kids can probably laugh at him where there is other characters like Geoffrey and others that are just like, no one laughs at that. They're just so bad or horrible that your, your not giggling at all.

Jesper (47m 49s):
Oh yeah. But that is definitely up there.

Autumn (47m 51s):
Like I said, I still think Jeffery's worst, but me. All right. So you wanna hear my dishonorable mention and I'm actually surprised she didn't mention this one because you stopped watching the series because you couldn't take this character. Oh, which one have, I know I've thought about the Lucifer from the T V series.

Jesper (48m 13s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Autumn (48m 15s):
Yes. And he was really annoying, but I know he didn't annoy me as much of these five that, but, but he is the norm. He is annoyed and I have, so I did watch it, the whole series and I just, just, they just released the funnel part of it. And it was worth to me it was worth watching, but even his character arc is amazing. He goes like for our and M anagrams, he has at the bottom, bottom bottom. And he goes all the way up to the top, over the course of the series, which is amazing to watch a little ups where, you know, you have backslides a little bit fantastic writing that way. And that's why I enjoyed the series in what he becomes is amazing. But there were times that I was just going, oh my God, I can not take just level of arrogance.

Autumn (49m 4s):
Stupidity is in those first few episodes for painful, but once you've got more until the story, and once we got into the detective, Chloe and what is going on there, and then you and I will, I love the fact that Netflix did allow them to finish up the series and finish up the story arc because the writers did a fantastic job of doing that and tying up all these loose ends. So the series itself was definitely worth watching, but there were times that it was just like, holy rap. They had him start at such a low, low point that if I was writing a book, I don't know if I'd want to have you, you take a big risk to start with a main character that has that much of a oh yeah.

Autumn (49m 45s):
But they do such a good job pulling him all the way up to the character arc where he's at the absolute upper end. And it's amazing.

Jesper (49m 55s):
All right. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Oh, I think this is a tough one to conclude on Oren because there's a lot of really bad characters on these two lists. You are. I think we have very good points on both sides. You have had some really annoying characters.

Autumn (50m 12s):
And I think of my list with their very specifically purposely genre chosen niches are very, it was very well done. And I say so myself, yes, yes.

Jesper (50m 28s):
Yeah. At least argued as well. Good for you a you aren't who'd well from your list as well. And you know, of course in some of them I have not watched, so I don't know. And the same for me, of course, some of my list do you have not watched? So you also don't know, but I might have to leave. And then we have a couple where we just agree.

Autumn (50m 45s):
I think we can say Jeffrey is one of the worst characters out there forever, but yeah, he is. Yes. All right. Well maybe, I don't know. We have to have to have half that have the listeners way in which maybe we missed the one. Did we miss someone who's could be worse than these? I don't know. Right? Yeah.

Jesper (51m 6s):
I'm even though I started out by saying that I should win this one because we both had, I have audio clips prepared, which I do think I should have some point. You have time for all audio clips, you got a 0.4 being stronger, specific to fantasies. So, and so that's pretty cool. Ah, and then we have a couple where we either, I didn't know that it wasn't, you didn't know mind. And then we have a couple of, we agreed upon. So maybe actually from the beginning, I would of been a sad. So as I said it in the beginning for not winning, because I actually came more prepared than you did. But on the other hand you pulled some pretty good stuff out of your sleeves there.

Jesper (51m 48s):
So maybe, oh yeah, yeah.

Autumn (51m 50s):
So maybe, maybe we can, maybe we can make it a DRO. I actually know if you too bad about it all. That's pretty good for a last-minute homework thing that, you know, I agree to withdraw because that was a pretty much a whipped up this morning list.

Jesper (52m 7s):
Alright. But, but as you set, some of you listeners can think of some really annoying characters that we forgot about it. And please let us know. I would like to know what those are that we missed, or if you liked any of these characters, please tell us why please eat well. And we promise not to start arguing with you. So just say we accept your point of view and that's it.

Autumn (52m 27s):
Yes, absolutely. I'm just curious, especially Bella, why it's especially Bella.

Narrator (52m 35s):
All right. So next Monday we have back to the topic of writing craft. I always enjoy those too. And we're going to talk about how to maintain your story flowing despite all of lifestyle. So if you liked what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/Am Writing Fantasy For as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 135 – How Beta Readers Improve Your Writing—with Pam Burleson & Paul Kilpatrick

Sure, you've heard about beta readers, but why do they help improve your writing so much? And what's the best way to utilize (and organize!) their help?

Join Autumn and two special guests, Pam Burleson and Paul Kilpatrick from Betabooks, as they talk about how beta readers can be such an asset, how best to use and find them, and how they created Betabooks to help authors learn to ease into the intimidating realm of asking people to read your book.

PLUS, grab the 25% off coupon on Betabooks! Use AWF when you enroll in a paid plan on Betabooks at https://betabooks.co/.

Check out the articles Paul mentioned on ​How to Run a Beta Read and How to Find Readers who will Love your Book. And don't forget to check out Pam's Beta Jam (PBJ) and submit your book if you'd like to have it considered!

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (3s):
You're listening to The Am. Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Autumn (31s):
Hello, I'm Autumn. And this is episode 135 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And today Yesper is off on vacation in Denmark and having hopefully a lovely time. And instead I have with me two very special guests. We have Pam and Paul from beta books. Welcome to the podcast.

Pam (55s):
Thank you. It was great to be here.

Autumn (58s):
So I, I, I sent this in an email when I asked if you wanted to join me, that a, my niece actually is responsible for having found you and introduced me and I've set up an account and started playing around. But I have yet to understand the full breadth of beta books. So I'm looking forward to hopefully of crash course, but first, please, please introduce yourselves and a little bit about, you know, how you found or you writers. I didn't even find much information on beta books and your backgrounds other than a really cute blur up at the bottom of the website that made me want to desperately reach out to you.

Pam (1m 36s):
Yeah. So my husband, Andrew is the third, have our little triumvirate here. He's a programmer and Paul and Andrew and I are all friends and Raleigh, Andrew wrote a book and had trouble getting anybody to read it. And then when people did read it to beta or whatever, he had trouble finding all the feedback. He was tired of that. So we decided to build it all so that he wouldn't read Andrews' book until Andrew build the thing. And so he did all right. I know, but at work, I'm not sure of Paul wanted it to work, but it did. Yeah. We've been going since then.

Pam (2m 17s):
And the reason the books exist is to make it easy for writers to run their beta, to send their, their documents out securely, to, to readers because of the document doesn't even go out, its all on one side. So there's no PDFs or other documents floating around the feedback has all their in one place for it to be sorted and mark and yeah. So the idea of their just to make and easy way for, for all authors to do that. So I M right now I handle the customer support and we Paula and I have done or conferences together and not this last year, obviously, but no, we did.

Paul (2m 60s):
We did it. We did at digital conference together. We did an online conference. That's pretty much it. I mean, technically speaking, a, one of the big headaches for Andrew was that when you did find a group of people, he just emailed them a word doc. And then he heard back from a number of people saying, oh, I can't open this. And so we sent it in a different format and then he started getting feedback via a series of emails, each person sending their own kind of email thread. And then he began making corrections and he sent out a new drafts to some people. And he ended up in this situation where he couldn't figure, he couldn't Colgate all this feedback from all of this emails, figure out who had, which draft and figure out what feedback he'd already used in making revisions in his draft.

Paul (3m 45s):
And he said, well, this is a, this is a data flow issue. And that's kind of what software is ideally suited to solving. So I bet I could do this. And we were sitting around at dinner and he said, does that sound like a good idea of Paul? And I said, that sounds like a fantastic idea. In fact, I won't read your book until I can read it on the software. So I didn't just get asked to read a book and say, know, make me a better tool to do it.

Autumn (4m 10s):
I absolutely adore that, that your husband is like, I had a problem and solve that because as it is definitely a problem that author's have of, especially as Yesper And I, as you heard it from the intro, you know, as we've come out with more books last summer, we released three NonFiction's and we were doing them all at the same time with different teams of beta readers, you know, 40 here, 30 here, 70 they're. And to get the feedback and to do the, all my life, I thought I was just going to go insane. Cause I'm the format or of the two of those. I'm the software person and our side of the business. So yeah, I was just, I think it must have ooze out to my family that my niece was like, Hey, have you seen this platform?

Autumn (4m 59s):
And as soon as I saw that, yeah, it's like people come to you and you know where they are so that you don't do formats one day and then two days later, someone else, since you something else, and you've done so many edits, you can't leave. You're like, did I do this, this error they found? Or did I not? Oh my gosh.

Paul (5m 16s):
So it is. And so you just described exactly, essentially the S the, the, the work flow issue that Andrew had in that we set out initially to solve. And then over time, we were in basically in a, sort of a semi open beta for over a year, just inviting authors and telling authors they can invite their friends. And that's when we began to get more and more feedback about, oh, I have this problem and all have this problem at some, like, the formatting issue was a very interesting one for us. I know we've talked to a bunch of people, but we wanted to make reading books easy on a phone and on the computer. And so we basically said, this is pre formatic. This is a prepress tool. So we do dynamic formatting on pretty much everything.

Paul (5m 58s):
Cause we have so many people reading on phones. I think over it's over 90% of beta readers are doing at least some of their reading on phone. So that was really important for us.

Autumn (6m 9s):
Wow. That always impresses me partially because I have bad eyesight. I've had M PRK, which is like LASIK done, but, and I starting to see it starting to phase out just a little bit, but it's been a decade. So I mean, I can, I used to only be able to see literally three inches and then the world was blurry. So I'm happy to have 25 20 is fantastic, but I cannot read on a phone to save my life. I get an important email and I'm like, where's the computer. I just need computers. But it is amazing that people, you know, they're they got younger eyes, I suppose. I know, but so good. No, go ahead. And do you think a lot of things, well, I think a lot of people that are also

Paul (6m 50s):
Are busy, so their reading, while they're waiting to pick up their kids on there and you know, they're like, oh, we need something new and you finish the book you have in your car. You're like, oh, I'm a Bader waiting for so-and-so. I can just pick it up. I'm waiting in a waiting room somewhere. I'm in line at the grocery store. So we hear a lot of stories like that from people saying, oh, wait, this is so easy. I can read a little bit here. Like, like using any of your e-readers as well.

Autumn (7m 11s):
Oh yeah. He just stuck at little league practice for the next hour and a half or something. So you're kind of whipped out the book. If we just know I'm taking fixers, honey really is what I'm doing. We were all good. Parent's at heart. Oh. And this sneaky one, but that is fantastic. So you've mentioned that it, you know, you are in beta testing and everything for a while. So when did you, when did this happen? Where did it? And Andrew have this book in this idea and he started developing it. Oh, wow. So, yeah, but not that, no, that's fantastic.

Paul (7m 45s):
And when did you move? So we,

Pam (7m 49s):
We left and 2017 left Raleigh in 2017.

Paul (7m 52s):
So it was 2016 when we started.

Pam (7m 55s):
Right. And I think we, we launched

Paul (7m 58s):
Into like the public and then in 18.

Pam (8m 0s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

Autumn (8m 2s):
I see. I love stories like that because I think being on the computer and I have, my dad was into computers. My nephew is a coder and I dabble enough to break things and fix them on my own. And so I think it's important for people just like with writing a book. So many people don't realize, you know, some authors. Yeah. They seem to be able to whip them out. And like five days, I know that's probably an insane, but you know, you know, it seems to be a month or two, they released 12 books a year. And for others it's over a year. I mean, I know I've had people ask my first series, which literally they all talk all day. Every single book took me or it took me a year of those a year of my life. And they asked for free and you are like, Hey, it was a year of my life.

Autumn (8m 45s):
So I think that's fantastic to know, you know, how to code this website. And it looks, it is look very lovely on the surface, which is fantastic. That takes a lot of it's that takes design skill. It takes coding skill. You've got to be able to click a button and it actually does something without breaking. So a couple of years' seems so incredibly reasonable to me.

Paul (9m 8s):
And how much, like a lot of authors, I mean, we were both working our regular jobs and this was something we did on the side and this is still a fairly small kind of operation. It's something we do because we're passionate about the community and the role that we think finding beta readers and connecting with readers plays and kind of an author's journey. Yeah.

Autumn (9m 28s):
Do you want to get into the beta readers and you can finish what you're about to say, Pam, but I also want to talk about is so used to, or not authors. I have to know how you met. There is a story. They're how you got sucked into the reader universe, which is a wonderful place to be. Yes.

Pam (9m 44s):
So goodness. So we, we met because we lived next door to each other. I mean, I have missed calls my mom from him. I met his mom, Melissa, and we became friends and then I was hanging out at her house and this is how I remember it. Well, and then I met you and then we were going to the same church. So Andrew met Paul and I was over at Melissa's house a lot with my kids and Paul, you, you have a history in the publishing business. So,

Paul (10m 18s):
Okay. So I worked in publishing right into college and I did a co-write some stuff. And so I work in film production and then all sorts of theater a lot. So I've actually written plays and produced plays. So writing is been a big part of stuff that I've done. I'm not like a spot, an aspiring author. Let's just not really one of the things that is a passion of mine. I have I'm in the fourth book of a non fourth draft of a nonfiction book. And I mean, it's really more kind of, of venting exercise for me, I've realized over time and then probably ever gonna be for people. Pam is leaving out of that. I think eventually we found out that we both like similar books, then we started lending each of their books.

Paul (11m 0s):
And then someone gave Andrew I think, risk legacy, which is one of these board games that you play for eight months. Yes. And, and then we all started playing that Andrew and I and a couple of other friends and, you know, as risk is, it was one of those rage inducing either you love each other or hate each other by the end of the things. And most of us love, hated each other. And then we ended up and then we started playing D D and we just kinda kept doing stuff. And I'm, and then I think maybe a couple of years later, Andrew did NaNoWriMo, which his, where he wrote the book that he ended up wanting to beta through beta books.

Paul (11m 43s):
Well, that's fantastic. Him and Andrew are married. So that helps. So that's how they know each other.

Pam (11m 48s):
Well, why not say that? Yes, yes. Yeah. And know I am a professional musician. So I come at the creative business from a slightly different angle, but I have learned is you can't make it unless you really put yourself out there and we just need to try it. And you're going to face rejection and you're going to face what feels like failure, but artists who want to make it camp. And it really just matters that you continue honing your craft in, reaching out to find your audience. And that's what I think beta reading really is at its heart. It's finding your audience, reaching out to readers, finding the readers who love your book and will tell other people about your book.

Pam (12m 32s):
So we really see beta reading, not as a transaction, necessarily the way you would with an editor or other like professionals, because beta readers, aren't professionals. They are people who love books. And I think it's something really special to, for a reader to be part of an author's process. And we've found that those readers who are involved in the process become really attached to the writers and promote their work and just, it's a very special thing. And so we encourage authors not to just say thank you for the feedback, but so can you continue to develop relationships? And for those beta readers, you know, maybe offer a free copy of the book.

Pam (13m 13s):
You mentioned the mat in your acknowledgements at the very least, but treat it like, like relationship with each leader. And you'll get their reputation as a writer who is really in it for the craft, but also for the people that you're writing for. And I think that's important. And we've seen that in beta books, at least authors and readers can interact in the books themselves. So a reader can leave a comment and a writer can respond directly to the comment in that book. And so there is some back and forth their, that can lead to have some really neat interactions. Oh,

Autumn (13m 46s):
That must be really cool to see on the backend to be able to see like that relationship develop, which you can have over an email, but it's, you know, like you said, is all on one platform. It makes it kind of easy and you can literally just respond as their reading instead of, you know, oh, I've got an email and into my spam folder.

Paul (14m 4s):
Right. Well, we don't watch, we don't watch too much of what happens. One of the things is, is it's big for us as it is kind of people having a private workspace. So most of the workspace is very private and we only really look at something if we're asked by an author for a technical reason. Yeah. So it would be awesome to like Snoop on people, but we don't do that. We generally hear about it when an author or a reader decides to tell us that.

Autumn (14m 29s):
Yeah. Just, just

Pam (14m 34s):
It's very behind the scenes is sneek reading anybody's books. So

Autumn (14m 37s):
I know that's probably a very ethical choice. Have you as, as a very good, what are you, what you think? I mean, I love your description of the process, especially coming from a musician because I agree it's, it is hard work. You S I see so many authors who, I mean, they say, you know, so many people will start at writing a book and if they finish their first one, that's already a huge chunk of people who don't make it to the finish at the first one. And I do see a lot of first-time authors make the mistake of just launching without beta reading or getting feedback or a content editor, which is expensive. I mean, that's where be at a reader is make a good cheap version of a content editor, but it's something to get feedback and they just put it out there and then they get disappointed and they never keep working on something new.

Autumn (15m 23s):
So that is definitely, I think, where I see beta reader coming in. But what do you think has been some of the strengths that, you know, you've then you're even your husband's books. There are things you've heard from authors that why beta readers can be so important, especially for new authors, trying to learn the craft and how to write something that readers will love.

Paul (15m 44s):
So I'll tell you all started kind of with the technical side and Pam, we can try him and kind of with what we're all in thoughts, but kinda from a business perspective, you know, authors should know if they wanna sell books, you need to treat it like a business. And if we were talking about software or any other thing that we would all be talking about, finding your customers or, or product fit. And so one of the things that, especially in the process of finding beta readers, a lot of authors or forced to discover his, so who is my books for, and what is it about my book that certain readers we'll like? So we were talking about fantasy, you know, there's a, there's a wealth of sub-genres, right? And you're not just going to say, Hey, this is a fantasy book for fantasy readers.

Paul (16m 26s):
You're going to say, well, this is his, this urban fantasy, or is this high fantasy? Has this grim dark light, and then narrowing it down and figuring out, oh, like, do I have a reader profile or do I have multiple reader profiles? Do I have a book description from myself kind of from marketing and for understanding who I'm writing to and why I'm writing to these people. And so that's one of the things that we see authors, we see them, we encourage authors to do. And the beta reading process forces, forces you to figure out who your readers are and then to go out and look for them and find out, oh, where, where do these people congregate? How can I find them? How can I reach them? And if you don't know that before you launch a book, you're not going to be effective at say, targeting ads, even writing, press copy or blurbs or back cover matter, because you're not thinking about who the person is, that's reading it and why they're going to resonate with it.

Pam (17m 24s):
It's true. And I think artistically, it's important to get over the hurdle of sharing something that's so precious to you. You know, as you've mentioned, you might have spent 12 months reading this thing, and it's not a thing, right. It's, it's just the baby. Right. And you know, it's a scary thing to send your baby out into the world. And so you should be at your right. So it makes sense to look for those people that you think will be good for your book. And to really treat it as this is something precious that I love. And I think it can be a gift to the world and to a certain community of people.

Pam (18m 9s):
And it's, if it's so hard, we need to make just a little bit of detachment from your work. And I think people are scared to, to share, to share their work because they're afraid of mean people. Yeah. I will say, I think, I think most people are not mean people, you know, you can say to someone, I wrote this thing, I love it. I'd love your feedback. Please be nice. And they will, you know, so I

Paul (18m 39s):
Think that this, which is it's own feedback,

Pam (18m 44s):
But then most people will not read it and say, this is terrible. What are you doing? And so you have, have faced in your own work and in the people that you are initially reaching out to. And when you're doing that first foray into finding readers, it's okay to use the people in your social circle. And I think Paul and I really love the same kinds of books. So if I were writing a fantasy novel, I would ask him to be one of my first readers, because he has so much familiarity with the genre. And I have other friends who we share the same interests. So just start with people who have, you know, but how do you also share that passion with us is a good place to start. And they might know other people that you don't know who would also be interested.

Pam (19m 27s):
So I think to be, to be open-minded as you, as you send your book out into the world, but it's okay to start with those people that you already trust to be sure that when you talk to you, but also you don't want to just ask if the book is good and if they liked it, because if they love you, they'll say, yeah, it was good. I liked it.

Autumn (19m 55s):
And you and your readers. Yeah. That is the problem. But having family Reed at your mom's always going to love it. It doesn't matter. Okay. So I do, I, do you remember seeing with beta Ray with the beta books, you know, you could set up actually questions as you are going through like, Hey, does this scene make sense? Is this character ring true? I like being able to ask those questions because you're right. I mean, a good beta reader who maybe has, does this for a couple of different authors because with indie publishing, oh my goodness. There are some very savvy beta readers who could basically do this as a profession. That's how they get maybe three books and they are so darn good. But otherwise you have to, you, right.

Autumn (20m 36s):
You have to coax them kinda of like, did this character sound right? Did I screw them up somewhere? Cause you let me know. And then you start getting the full story.

Paul (20m 46s):
Yeah. That was something that we were very mindful of when we were making the software is finding there's an, there's not, there's not an overwhelming amount of customization on beta books, but there is a fair amount specifically with asking questions as one of the things we were, we were very mindful of. So you can give full book guidance in your table of contents. You can give individual specific guidance at the beginning or the end of each chapter where you ask, you know, this is the climax of the romance. Can you tell me this, this and this. And then we also kind of offer guides about asking questions. We tend to encourage people not to ask yes or no questions, ask things that are more about opinion or have an open and open answer ability.

Paul (21m 30s):
I personally say it's better to ask a question at the end of the chapter. So they're not thinking about it as their going through, but some people like to have their readers focusing on something per chapter. And then we also let authors insert kind of broader questionnaires kind of as a, like an act break or at a book break as they're going through, which some people like, because they're like, Hey, we've just finished the first act. Which of these characters, or do you like the most? Why you, why do you think they're the KIRO you no. And then sometimes you run into authors. We were like, oh no, they all thought so-and-so was the main character. And I'm about to kill them or something of that nature. It's not a problem with their grr Martin.

Autumn (22m 9s):
So that's, that's just part of the plot, but Dick and put it in their readers and twist it a little bit. so that's fantastic. I'd like to that you, you know, you talked about, you know, coaxing and I think that was part of the platform. You, if I remember correctly, you could see where people were. So if you suddenly saw that like 15 of the 20 people, you asked, it only made it to chapter 10, you would know, even if they weren't giving you feedback, you're like, okay, everyone stopped at 10 once, you know, my passive feedback.

Autumn (22m 54s):
And hopefully someone will have at least tell you what's wrong with chapter 10, but that is, yeah, you did something is wrong. There's a usefulness then that kind of, of statistics instead of sending out those emails, like you said, and never hearing back or just getting the, oh yeah, I read that month ago. It was great. We were kidding. Anything else? Go ahead. Oh, and one

Paul (23m 24s):
Of the things we found is we've helped authors when a ton of betas is yeah. That, that very thing that you just said, oh, I read it a month ago. What we've discovered is if you treat it like an important part of your process, you actually get better response and a more engaged readership because they perceive that, oh, this beta is a part of this author's business and I have a responsibility to them. So it's saying, Hey, you know, can you read this book in the next two weeks? Or the deadline for being finished is this day. And then the book is closed, which is a future we have where essentially we just shut the book and you can work with your feedback. We found that that's actually very effective. It's also one of those things, but a lot of authors are really resistant to because they feel like they're placing some strange and position on people.

Paul (24m 5s):
But it's one of those ironies where when you give people a higher expectation of their importance and their responsibility, they often respond positively because they are affirmed in how important they are and how valued they are by an author. Yeah.

Autumn (24m 21s):
And that probably helped weed out some of the chafe, the chaff two, you know, the people who just want the free book versus the people who are, feel like part of the team and want to help. Yeah. Yeah.

Pam (24m 33s):
And I think it's important to treat your beta. It's important not to treat it as if you're asking a favor from the readers. I mean, on one hand you are, but on the other hand, you really need their health, I think, and you should want to develop those relationships. So I'm just saying in a different way of what Paul said, that you don't need to be hesitant and, you know, and as people that try it, you know, you, you can approach with some confidence because this is something that you have worked on, you see value in it and you trust that other people will see value in it as well, and that they will drive value from it.

Pam (25m 12s):
And now they may say see different things and your work than you see this, as we all have their relationship with the thing that we create and then we output. But that's one of the beautiful things about, especially casting your net wider with beta readers. It's great to have M 10 20, if you can find it. So you got a nice sample size and you might see, see trends that you weren't even aware of in your own work and the things that you can capitalize or lean into in the next books and the series. If your, if your writing series M which is good, my business, if that's where your, but yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of value to be shared.

Pam (25m 53s):
And it's really good to approach it with, with the idea that you are bringing something valuable into their lives. Not only asking for their help, with their little project,

Autumn (26m 4s):
I like that. I think we all do better when we realize that we are taking this seriously. I mean, we have it as a hobby and something we're passionate about, but giving it that dedication, that time on our own part and the people who love reading, giving their expertise as readers is very valuable because yeah, there's a lot of things that they can catch that a careful reader that knows that they're really doing it to help the author and not just their going to, you know, our creator as being an example. I mean, their getting an advanced reader copy just to leave a review. That's great. But their not often being very cautious readers, they might be looking, they might notice a typo, but their not going to sit there and go, why did you the character do that?

Autumn (26m 44s):
I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense. And who's, or that's what the beta readers are for.

Pam (26m 50s):
Yeah, exactly.

Autumn (26m 52s):
And I do think it was so interesting threw me off at first, but you know, you, from when I saw you, you have to bring in your own manuscript. Like you have basically almost copy and paste might be the fastest way to get a book up there. But I do see the value. I mean, I still remember I read the Twilight series. It's definitely not one of my favorite, but the, what Stephanie went through when someone took the books that she finally is taken, what five, almost a decade for her to finally release Edward's point of view from the first book, because someone took her file and started sharing it. And I mean, not all of us are going to be Stephenie Meyer and be these famous authors, but that is the problem that is this fear that when you're sending this out to the world, whether you're sending an EPUB file or just like book, book, funnel has a place where you can send out reader copies to then PDFs, how someone can take that N share it.

Autumn (27m 46s):
So where were you? Don't need it to be, so this one, you, you make, it all stays right there, which has kind of have I, do you see the point to that?

Paul (27m 55s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's, I mean, even I go back and forth on manuscript theft because when it happens, it's very publicized and people have a lot of fear about it. But generally when you're an aspiring author at the risk is very low, especially if you're trying to start a business because as you know, like writing a book and selling a book is, is not the, the goal it's, it's creating a platform and having books. You exactly know, but, but there's also, there's, there's increased vulnerability that an author is kind of sharing with the readers, especially depending on where they are in the process, because some authors will beta unedited chapters. If they have a group of people that are really hungry, like for instance, there's an author.

Paul (28m 38s):
We use this site early on when we were in beta to would dictate a chapter and immediately share it to a small section, like the elite tier of his mailing list to get feedback before it even went through edits or, or copy of it because they were so hungry and such big fans, but also because they would give him good feedback. And that sounds terrible, like a terrifying thing for their ability to me. And that's one of the reasons we want to make sure that people feel that they have the control of our access.

Autumn (29m 7s):
So that's really cool. So is it possible to do that, to set up different tiers like this, as I'm sharing this with just this subset group that our, my special fantastic fans, and when you're ready to get more beta, as you can have open it up to other people as well.

Pam (29m 22s):
So yeah. So the way the process works as you upload you manuscript, and when you send out invitations to readers to their email addresses, and if you want them to run 20 rounds of betas with 20 different groups, readers', you could, and so you just, you invite the readers that you want and that first time, and then they're done, you can just remove them from the book and then do whatever you want. If you want to make any edits, you can, and then just invite another group and they can go through the book. And as the author, you can decide whether readers are seeing each other's feedback or not. So you can decide whether they're experiencing a clean read every time.

Pam (30m 7s):
And I really think you ought to do that, but there are authors who like to build reader community by letting readers see each other's comments, sort of appreciate the books together in that sense. Well, almost like a

Paul (30m 20s):
Bit is like a beta book club.

Autumn (30m 23s):
Okay. Now I want to be an, a book club is going to really, and I did C so you can send out emails. I just like that. Cause, so if you already have, like, you've been doing this and you have, you know, 40 emails, you can send out an email list, but you, there are actually beta readers who are on the site. And you can like, as an author, I think for what is all you could basically go and like, look at their profile and say, Hey, would you like to try out this book? Is that right?

Pam (30m 53s):
Yeah, that's right. I mean, all leaders joined at the invitation of an author at one point or another. So you don't just have people showing up. You have people invited who likely are trusted by another author. So we ask readers to fill out a reader profile if their interested, if they're looking to be contacted by new authors and we call that the reader directory and they involve, include as much information as they want their areas of expertise, genre, preferences, genre of this preferences, anything that they think uniquely identifies them as a reader home. And the database is searchable both by you.

Pam (31m 36s):
You can just start at simply genres. Yeah. Anything you want. There is an advanced search you could search for roller skates and see if you come up with, as a reader and then it's searchable on our free trial. But querying readers is available only on our subscription because we wanna protect our leaders. We don't want them to get spammed. Oh, thanks. So yeah, you send out a query and the reader can decide whether or not to read. And it's just a real click, but quick button in their e-mail just accept or reject. It's also on the, on their dashboard, on the home screen. And we find that a number of our others have, I dunno at Paul, I think most authors find a few readers on the reader directory, but a lot of, a lot of people really do their own work to find their own.

Pam (32m 21s):
Readers' we also have so many, sorry, go ahead, Paul.

Paul (32m 25s):
Well, I mean, the director is a bit of a, kind of, it was a sneaky way that we thought that we could help authors get used to the idea of asking people to read their book. So I like that. So there's no expectation from us that you'll be able to find a group of beta readers through the directory. You might find one or two people. We encourage, we encourage the readers when they get queried. If they don't like the query to say, Hey, the reason I didn't like this query is because I list this in my preferences. And you said this, or, you know, I don't want to read my book, your book. It sounds amazing, but I'm busy, but it's really kind of a, a backdoor way to get authors used to the idea of maybe having a much softer approach where people they know we were already interested in.

Paul (33m 16s):
So they can say, oh, here's my 160 word pitch to you. I know you liked this and this, let me practice how to approach someone. So that's kind of why it's there. Also a lot of people who came to this site for one author started emailing us and saying, Hey, I really enjoyed doing this. Can I feed them more bucks? And so that was when we created. And then we tried to find ways to make it a useful part of the author process. We so strongly encouraged people to go out and find their own group of readers out in the world, because that's going to be your business.

Autumn (33m 48s):
Yeah. I mean, especially if you said you're sending out an email to invite them, so you have their emails. So you're creating you're newsletter list and there's a lot of people you're gonna like say, Hey, it's all out and stores. And I think that you are in it. And if we want to buy it, that'd be great. But you don't have to just tell your friends and family or anyone you think, yeah, that is how you want that author platform. Because without that, if Amazon decides that you aren't good enough and kicks you out, which is rare, but occasionally things do happen with people's authors profiles that get accused of something are break some rule and then toss out of Amazon. And that's a big deal. That's it? No matter how I'm of an wide author, I'm across everywhere, because I just think the world should have competition and should be available and open.

Autumn (34m 33s):
But yeah, you know, Amazon's still is mostly the most of the eggs in the basket.

Paul (34m 40s):
Well, I mean, I'm sure you've done 135 episodes. I'm sure the importance of mailing lists is something you have talked about extensively. And then that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons we tell people to find their readers, start, start building that list. Now start building that list. When you're halfway through your first draft, start thinking about who you're going to want to find. If you're going to start marketing an online community in your book, isn't Dunn, you should join the community and become a member so that when you are ready, people will know, oh, this isn't some stranger. And this is a Panda friend, 64 is asking me to read their new books. And now, you know, I've had 15 interactions with Panda friend, like let's read their book.

Autumn (35m 22s):
That's true. That's where I was like pay into front. And you, you just came up with that one or is it secretly? You're all going somewhere.

Paul (35m 29s):
I'm never gonna tell, Hey, everyone on a Panda buddies.com

Autumn (35m 37s):
Sounds great. But then I did see how it is. It is true. So it's nice to know though, if you were an author and you are truly new, you, you, you should at least learn how to work on your marketing and like, say, how do you ask people to do this? But then you might actually get a couple of people. So if you're brand brand spanking new and you have no one to outreach for you, you might get one or two, you might get your first start. And that's always important. But I do. I love the fact that free trials, I've tried out a whole bunch of different editing software recently and stuff like that. And there was one or two that didn't have free trials. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me even a 14 day, but you have a free level of free tier. And I'm like, there's like, you've got

Pam (36m 25s):
My gosh. So it really is meant to give writers an idea of what it's like to use to use this software. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of writers are contentious. They have the one book and they have a few friends. They want to read it. But then if you do have more aspirations and a larger readership than you already know whether the software works for you. So that really was, was the goal there.

Autumn (36m 51s):
We give it a whirl with book one and a couple of readers just to see how you like it. That's an example. And if you like it, you're going to come back for this, if you're really into writing.

Pam (37m 0s):
Yeah. And we, we find that most, most writers will use the use data books for about a month to run their beta. And you can turn off your subscription after that. And all that means is that the readers no longer have access, but of course is retained access to your work indefinitely, whether your paid are not at that point. And yeah, I think a lot of people come to our site looking for readers and they see beta books and say, oh, these people will find me beta readers. And that is one of the reasons of among many that Paul's already mentioned that we instituted the reader directory, but we also have, I've got a book club called Pam S Beta Jam, and anybody can submit a novel of anyone who's looking to find readers can submit and I'll review.

Pam (37m 48s):
And I choose pretty much any fiction genre. And I'm also looking for memoirs cause we got a lot of interest in that among our leadership. Oh, but it's, I make it available to our about, gosh, I think there are about a thousand readers that have come through PBJ at one time. And so most writers find they have two or three really dedicated readers who make it all the way through to really enjoy their books at the end of the process. So we try to make that available. That's available, whether you are on the free trial or subscribed or whatever. So that's, if you're looking for a way to find readers for free, that's a good way too.

Pam (38m 28s):
So yeah. All it just requires that you upload your book and do a query at the group's homepage. And we're just getting started this summer after, after a hiatus, because a lot of people just were not, we're not writing, but I'd love to be able to send out a bunch. So anyone listening who is interested, it has a book that you need to get some eyes on it and don't know how to do it. So you submit

Autumn (38m 52s):
I'm and check this out. That is an opportunity because I think that is definitely, it's not maybe the number one question I get asked by new writers, but it's probably in the top five. So that's yeah. So cool.

Paul (39m 4s):
But the question being, how do we find readers or

Autumn (39m 8s):
Just, you have the question being, what was, how do I find beta readers specifically? Like where do I go find them? It seems to stump a lot of people. I honestly think a lot of new authors especially get stumped by the difference between author groups, which authors are readers, but often we're so busy writing. We don't read as much as we want to. Or I know with me, I'm like currently on just like, if it hasn't won a Hugo or a Nebula award, I'm not reading it because I just want to, I want to see the top tier fiction. That just makes me go, holy crap. This is amazing. And that's just kind of like my goal for the year. So I know I've read a lot of other peoples books, so unless I'm doing edits and yeah. And then the authors to new authors, do you know?

Autumn (39m 50s):
So their go to the, this author group, their asking them, Hey, you want to be a beta reader and their not going into like the reader groups and asking them if they want to be a Bader, you, it takes a little while to figure that out. I think.

Pam (40m 1s):
Yeah. If, oh, sorry. Well, I'll just, if, if another writer is reading your book, but they're going to critique your craft and that's not what you need from a, a beta reader. That's very true.

Paul (40m 13s):
The version of the book that they would.

Autumn (40m 16s):
Yes. Oh yes. So my favorite reviews have been, well, that's not what I would have done it, so that's great. Then you write it. You are away.

Paul (40m 28s):
Yeah. And one of the things that's, I mean, it's, it's frustrating for all authors, especially new authors. And it's also frustrating for us trying to help people. Is that a T two things I wrote into a lot of times is very naturally, you're used to asking authors for advice on how to be an author, because you've gotten great advice on how to write your book. But a lot of times what happens is they either instinctively their successful found readers kind of through luck or doing something that they were doing already kind of naturally, or they use a process maybe eight years ago. One thing I hear a lot of writers conferences is authors going, oh, well, you know, I started writing a blog and all you have to do is write everyday and then you'll get readers. And I'm like, well, I mean, when was the last time you actually read a blog?

Paul (41m 12s):
I mean, it's not the same as it was and say, oh two, when people had a list of blogs, they would visit every day. Now you might be relying on your Instagram feed or a sub stack or Pinterest. So you have to find new things and, and it's always changing the best way to reach readers. And then the second thing is your early readers, that's almost like a fingerprint finding them and forming that relationship is, is going to be an incredibly unique to you, your book and who they are. And so I think you have to do some fairly systematic and deep thinking about who you are, who the book is and who you want to be reading it.

Autumn (41m 50s):
Well, that's, that's a very good advice and so true. And I do think, I remember when you are right. I started on Twitter back before the second resurgence of Twitter being popular. And I loved it. And I remember someone saying is like, your first hundred followers are going to be the ones who remember and interact with the most. And I think that's true, even with beta readers, it's going to be those first ones that you, even, if they fade off, for some reason, they're going to be the ones you remember, and you are so appreciated. I have. So building that first a hundred list and just fantastic to do.

Paul (42m 24s):
And you, you learn as they enjoy your book, you learn what you're doing because I mean, there's, there's so much focus on writing and craft, which I think is very important. And I feel like at, in some ways it's a dirty trick because write this book with a group of authors, you work really hard on a, you edit and then you decide, okay, I'm going to publish. And then it's a completely new skill set. It's a completely new set of expectations. And, and that's one of the reasons that we're like, okay, well you want to build a tool to make this less of a logistical headache. And that was something that as we were developing better books for their, we really found to be encouraging to all of us, which is, this is a hard process asking people to read your book.

Paul (43m 5s):
When you don't have a name, you have never written a thing, involves a tremendous amount of rejection and it's awkward and uncomfortable, no matter how confident you are, no matter how strong your ego is. So just taking away the headache of you finally got someone to say yes, and then you send them a file and they say they can't open it. You feel embarrassed and you doubt yourself. And you're like, well, if I reform at this and send it, well, they even open it. Have I already blown that chance? And it going, going through that over and over just is demoralizing. So we really worked to make a tool that could remove as many opportunities for you to feel worse about yourself as we could.

Autumn (43m 47s):
Well, it could almost be like your tagline, beta books will teach you marketing and this soft software. So that's so lovely. So we have to wrap up, I mean, is there any final advice or like your favorite thing or a favorite moment that has come out of working with authors? Because I know that my husband is a photographer and I was just shocked at how cruel other photographers could be on technique and composition. And, oh my goodness. So it's not like that with authors. I think there's some of the sweetest people on the planet. So any last notes that you would like to end on collecting my thoughts?

Autumn (44m 28s):
That's fair enough. I'll

Paul (44m 30s):
Go first. I mean, you're right. And the author community is amazingly open and they share and support each other. And an incredible way. I think one of the reasons is because it's so hard and because the information is out there and a lot of people just don't do it when they get to the hard parts and the hard part. And the hard part is first finishing your book. I mean, the stats, what's something like one in 10 people finished their book or a 10 out of 100 and something like that. But then the marketing part is, is just as challenging. People will keep writing books and won't put in the hard work of saying, okay, I'm gonna have to go out and find people that I think will like this book. And I'm gonna have to ask you a hundred to get 10, and I'm gonna have to do that over and over.

Paul (45m 11s):
And authors will tell you that because it's not a secret and they're not worried about an author's just, aren't worried about people competing with them because they can't write books fast enough for all of the readers. And then, because it doesn't get talked about as much as an author. Well, I always encourage people to do something like go on YouTube and watch the Y Combinator startup school videos. You were talking about tech companies, but really the rules apply when you're talking about a customer fit. It's the same as a reader fit. And you are talking about finding your early customers is the same as finding you early readers. When you talk about honing your vision and your mission statement, like create a mission statement or a vision for your book and for your author career, and use that to guide how you look for readers.

Paul (45m 53s):
The, the practice is very similar between say tech, startups and your creative startup. So if you're not finding things that are helping you in the author world, look for their field because there's a lot of entrepreneurs and that's what you are. If you're an author, and if you're serious, you're building a business as an entrepreneur. And you want to look for people. If someone so launched and a hundred million dollar tech company, maybe they have something to, we can help you find, find a hundred readers or a thousand readers.

Autumn (46m 23s):
That's a good idea.

Pam (46m 25s):
Yeah. And I think I would just circle back to the belief in your work as maybe not perfect yet, but there are so many readers outdoors and know reader goes, I like this other, and I don't have room for any other authors. None of us, we love reading are like that. We're all like I've finished all these books, but this one person who else can I read all of their books of. And so there are readers out there who will love your book. All you have to do is find them, all right, let's say are find-able. They are find-able and not everybody is your reader and that's normal and good and fine.

Pam (47m 5s):
And when you find someone who's not your reader, that is one more step toward finding someone who is, because you've learned something maybe about your book, all about the people or person that you reached out to. So I would say just, just persist, just stay out there, keep going, because what you've done is significant, and we'll be really valuable, not only to you, but to other people who will enjoy and appreciate your work and enjoy getting to know you. And the process

Autumn (47m 39s):
Is very cool. And Hey, you might get to join your book club and get to talk to you as well. And that's really

Pam (47m 46s):
Trying to do it a little bit of a coaching also for people from whom is their first beta. We choose to book. So we've got resources on our website for how to find readers and sort of best practices for How to Run a Beta. And we really want to help writers be successful in this, this segment of talking about rejection a lot. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a part of growth you can't grow unless we put through uncomfortable situations. Yes.

Autumn (48m 15s):
And you can't grow unless you actually start producing something in trying. So God is fantastic. I love the resources. And of course, we're going to link to beta books in the show notes. Otherwise it's pretty easy to find it's just beta books.com. So go and find it that way as well. So thank you so much, Pam and Paul for being here. Thank you so much for making beta books and actually having some resources on there that are free, which of their fantastic. And then you make it so good that you just have to buy in and join in as well.

Paul (48m 48s):
Well, thank you for having us. This has been fun. This, this, this is our first one in a, in a year. I mean, I was like, oh no, I haven't. Podcasted in forever. Is this going to be okay? And it was okay. It was actually better than it was just fantastic.

Autumn (49m 3s):
Good. Thank you for letting me a break you back into podcasting.

Pam (49m 8s):
Yeah. So this has been really fun. I think we've got a coupon code Am Writing Fantasy. So H AWF, anyone who finds us through this podcast Use AWF for twenty-five percent off any subscription M four line.

Autumn (49m 26s):
Oh, we go use that phrase of my accounts and has been fantastic. I will put that in the show notes as well. So thank you so much where you appreciate it. Have a fabulous day. And if there's anything that we can do to help you out again, let us know. It was fantastic having you here. Thanks so much. Okay. And so next week, so yes, we're at, I will be back and it will be one of our top 10 lists this time, the today 10 worst ever characters.

Narrator (50m 4s):
If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You could also Join Autumn in Yesper on patrion.com/ Am. Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 134 – A Bit About Our Writing—Listener Q&A!

We've had listeners ask SEVERAL times for us to talk about our books and writing... haven't we done that yet?! 😱🤣

So, in the spirit of sharing, we are answering listener questions about us and our writing! Because who doesn't want to squirm with the question, "Have you ever written a book/series that didn't sell well and what did you do?" Join us for some insight, fun, and maybe a few secrets...

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
I'm Jesper.

Autumn (31s):
And I'm autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 134 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And by the time You will be listening to, this is going to be the middle of July, But we are actually prerecording to enable us to take a summer break. And yeah, this way you shoot, you were still get new podcast episode and in the spirit have some of the cases and we decided to do something different today because we've collected questions from your listeners. And in today's episode, we are planning to answer all of those and all the things that are you guys want to know. So I'm looking forward to this one, all of them.

Autumn (1m 13s):
Yes. I love. And then listeners actually, where the ones that you pointed out that we've done now 134 podcasts, and we've hinted about our books and we've mentioned we have books in the theme, you know, they'll well, we come on in and says we've had more than 20 books, but we never actually talk much about our own writing in our own books.

Jesper (1m 35s):
So thank you for pointing that out. Then we make up for it and this episode. So yeah, I mean, we are not going to talk about our books in the sense that they're trying to get you interested in reading them at all, but more like your, your, your reader listener questions in terms of what you wanted to know about our own writing journey and those sorts of things. So, absolutely. So that'll be fun.

Autumn (2m 3s):
It should be very fun. Now I'm just dropping things here. Oops. I've already said I'm having a Monday. You can't have a Monday too, because that'll be a disaster and you already jinxed in fact that maybe, maybe it, the recording will screw it up and all of that kind of stuff.

Jesper (2m 20s):
So, and, and usually when you, when you say something like that, all of them, you make me nervous because you have a very big influence on the electronics.

Autumn (2m 28s):
I do. I've trying not to touch on my computer or my microphone or the light I've got going on as we're recording, because I've definitely had a total Monday worth. It's been exciting. I mean, I usually, you know, things in life I've mentioned, I felt like I was cursed. You know, I think January in February, but suddenly it's like something broke and I'm getting like five emails about this and six emails about that. And it's exciting, but there's a point where it was like, oh, this is fun. This is so I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm a little nervous, but it's good.

Jesper (3m 3s):
It's a good thing. That is a good thing, but I don't need to break anything. Yeah. I, well, I was joking with you last week. I can't remember if we were recording or if it was off air, but I was joking with you last week that while your husband was away too, how, where you were going to eat because the fridge was probably break once you touched it.

Autumn (3m 24s):
So it hasn't yet, but I haven't been able to fix it's so broken slightly. So it has its moments and I knew it. I knew it. You just, you know, every, and plus I've got the weather going on today. We it's lovely. We were having a very wet spring and yesterday was gorgeous. We went for a hike up Mount, oh, I can never pronounce at one task to cook. Oh my task to quit. I should say, which is this lovely mountain. That's M overlooking the Connecticut river and this hotel. And we live in. And so we did a lovely hike and all of the mountain, Laurel and Blum, and it was sunny, you know, is warm. And today we woke up to thunderstorms and I know there's been pouring all day and you can see, I have this lovely, like white selfie light.

Autumn (4m 7s):
That's just gorgeous. So I'm sitting in the dark waiting for more thunderstorms to roll through, but you know, so far so good that hopefully things are better for you. All right. It's pretty dark. He as well, you could see this is quite well.

Jesper (4m 25s):
The people watching on YouTube at least can see it's quite dark. I mean, it's just getting late evening on my end or as well. So, well, I don't have that excuse.

Autumn (4m 34s):
It's like, yeah, that's just bad with it then.

Jesper (4m 39s):
But yeah, but you do. How did you have a good week? Yes. Otherwise good work has gotten busy.

Autumn (4m 46s):
Drawing's getting busy. I'd love the Hike. My husband came back. So that was kinda nice at some time together. So that is all good. And I love the hike, feeling it a little bit in my legs. Should I? Yeah. But that's all right. So is he is so that's good. Yeah. And now the light went out.

Jesper (5m 1s):
Yeah. You touched the light. I knew it.

Autumn (5m 2s):
I did. I should never touch these things. So we'll see. All right. Well, my husband's looking for,

Jesper (5m 12s):
and then podcast listeners can't see this, but her light keeps going out.

Autumn (5m 15s):
Yeah, exactly. Like I predicted, I know it went out, but that's the worst thing that happens. We'll be fine. I'm getting technical assistance because you know, I needed to lets just talk about U for the moment. I always thinks of Denmark.

Jesper (5m 34s):
I will. Yeah. It's it's not been good to be very honest. It was, it was a terrible weekend. But yeah. As I mentioned in last week, last week's episode and Denmark was going to play Findon for all our first match in the European soccer championship. And it was also for the first time ever that Denmark is one of the host nations. So it was like on our home field and, and I, you know, with COVID going on for so long and everything we've been waiting for like one and a half year for this match and everybody was looking so much forward to it. And I'm, and also because the tournament structures in such a way that know two matches are you ever played at at the same time?

Jesper (6m 21s):
So basically everybody in the entire world who likes soccer was able to tune in and then something really terrible happened in that match. And to be honest at the effected me quite a lot over the weekend, and I'll try to do my best to talk a bit about what happened to you for also for those people who, who maybe don't watch soccer and Noah or, but of course by the time you listened to this, this, this slightly in the past. So it'll probably be a bit easier to listen to, but I'll try not to get emotional talking about this, but I have to admit that over the weekend I was quite emotional because I know it was really tough.

Jesper (7m 3s):
So normally I try to keep upbeat and the nicer, you know, tone in these podcasts, but I'm not sure I can manage this second section here, but I'll try. Okay. So as I feel like it is important to sort of talk about stuff like this when it happens. So I'm about 40 minutes into this match. One of the dangers players called Christian and Ericsson, he suddenly just collapsed in on the field of play. And at first when I, so what I was sort of wondering what happened because there was no other players near him, you know, there was nobody tackling him or anything like that.

Jesper (7m 50s):
So I was so sort of like that was, that looks a bit weird why he just fell to the ground. And then very soon when the, the cameras sort of found his face, if I can put it like that. So, you know, they filmed him his face and he at this very lifeless stair in his eyes and I, I just could install this. You, something is very, very wrong here. And M okay. So his teammates came running. Those nearest to him of course knew much more than we could from watching on TV, obviously.

Jesper (8m 36s):
But he was in the beginning, he was just, you were just lying. Then he was shaking and then he just stopped shaking and didn't move. And then it become quite apparent that he had a cardiac arrest in the middle of the field. So the paramedics came onto the field and they spent like 20, 30 minutes giving him, you know, what is it called? An English heart-to-heart and then massage, what are you? I don't know.

Autumn (9m 5s):
All right. I think I, because I did see, I read the BBC and I did see a little bit about this, but then they gave him a defibrillator and some CPR.

Jesper (9m 13s):
Yeah. CPR. Yeah, exactly. And they probably spent like 20, 30 minutes doing that and all of the Danish players, his teammates that you sort of formed the circle around him. Yeah. And see this, this, this way. It gets a bit tough for me because it was so powerful images. You know, these people just try to shield him from the camera's all of the people watching M while he was just basically fighting for his life.

Autumn (9m 53s):
Oh my gosh. It was, it was tough. I'm surprised. I didn't, I mean, I understand it is, I'm sure there's a live event, but I'm almost surprised that they didn't pan back or give a little more privacy to him at that point.

Jesper (10m 13s):
Yeah. I mean the network I watched it on. They, they, as soon as they noticed what was really happening, they switched to a camera is from a helicopter outside. So just looking overlooking the city of Copenhagen, but there were other TV stations, who filmed the whole thing, which was not on the channel I watched, which I'm pretty preppy, pretty happy about that. I didn't know. I really feel that it's really terrible, but I know those images of his teammates has just made it around the world since, and on one hand it makes me really proud or the way that it is behaved.

Jesper (10m 58s):
But then on the other hand, it was also really tough. And I think the worst part, when was that I need to breed a bit. So I'll take care of time. At some point they brought his wife onto the field.

Autumn (11m 18s):
Oh, geez. Oh, that's hard. It was too much. Oh, she must of been broken down.

Jesper (11m 34s):
Yeah. And then do you have the TV station up? They filmed this and we did. So I was really upset about learning afterwards that they filmed his wife standing there obviously completely devastated and thinking that he was dead because I thought he was that too. At that point then, and our team captain, an AR goalkeeper, we went to his wife and try to console her, which is also really tough. So yeah, this is not good podcast material and no, but I think is important.

Jesper (12m 17s):
And I think it was like an hour later, it was then an announced that he was alive and he had been taken to the hospital too. So that was all good. Yeah. And so I think as well in that, in good sportsmanship, all of finished neighbors did a really wonderful job. So they were like chanting his name and the stadium as well.

Jesper (12m 57s):
Oh, that is really good. And I know I had read that they had M halted play even after he'd gone off the field until they heard from the hospital that he was gonna be, he was at at least alive. So I thought that was really, I thought that was decent. Have, you know, all of the sides of the players were obviously, and I think I remember reading that some of the Denmark players were not able to continue to play. Some of them could, but that there is a player is just so effective that they're like, I can't do this today. So it was a huge, you know, and that's from anywhere. I want to maybe go a bit into what happened there, because that's not so emotional because I'm upset about that.

Jesper (13m 39s):
Part of it was just an easier for me to talk about, because honestly, like I want to move a bit away from all of this because it's too emotional is still alive. I'm even struggling with T S right now is I speak because there's just too much. But let me move in to a bit of a ramp because I can barely handle that right now. Lets get that out. But you have, because we're face is the body of authority, bodies who sort of governance do you European soccer championship. And of course they stop the play as you sit. And when this happened and everybody just went to the dressing rooms after a while, they stood on the pitch for a long while, while the treatment was still going on.

Jesper (14m 24s):
And then they, when he was taken to the hospital too, then they left the pitch and then it proved afterwards that, well, if I had given them a choice and we've had said, either you can play the rest of them match today. All you can meet again tomorrow at 12 o'clock noon and you can play them. Okay. And this has to me, it just so freaking unacceptable. Number one, you, you cannot ask people who've just stood around, watching their teammate almost die to make a decision about what do you want to play now? Or do you want to play tomorrow morning when you haven't slept all night? Probably because you're, you're so worried about at everything that's happened in you assault out of yourself and even asking the people to make a decision on what your preference is completely unacceptable.

Jesper (15m 15s):
But then because they had no other choice did then is play players. Well, the finished players were very, again, they wonderful people, very sportsmanship. And so they said, well, they were, the day in is players. We will do, we will, we will do. They decide. That's a very nice, and then 'cause, today's play. We knew that if we go home and don't even sleep and have to get up tomorrow morning early, get back in here, chains again, warm up again where we have not going to be able to play. So they decided if that's our choice, then let's, let's play it, get it all over with. Right. So they came onto the pitch again and the plate, the sec, this is the last five minutes of the first half and then the second half.

Jesper (15m 56s):
And of course, hats off to those guys for doing that. That's incredible. But it's also shitty because they were not in the game at all, not at all. And it doesn't matter right now at the sports part of it. And the results doesn't matter. We did lose one nil, but again, the, the, the header that was headed, it was like straight out our gold key and our goal keep is one of the best. And he fumbled it into the net, clearly not concentrating at all. And then a bit later on in an immense. So we got a penalty kick, which I Stryker also wasn't you could see it in his face, you know, just waiting to standing there, waiting for the referee to blew the whistle.

Jesper (16m 37s):
So he could kick, he was standing there looking into the ground, like he's somebody who had lost everything almost like, and that's not how you stand. When you are about to take a pedal and you kick, you are your ready, you are ready to fight because you are going to score are now and you are or their right in. And he was not at all. And you made the weakest Kik ever, you know, like a 10 year old kind of kicked that all better. So I, and I'm, I'm just so upset about the fact that the way if I gave them such a shitty, first of all, the choices like between two bats, so it's not really a choice. And then secondly, sort of forcing them to play when they're not there at all. And the, and this is like the European championship, it's you, you have to be at your best. Yeah. And then we of course, to play and fuck, I don't know.

Jesper (17m 20s):
It is. I'm just so upset about it. No, that is. I wonder if you say, well, rethink any of their rules after this, because I mean, I've been paying attention to the French open were, you know, a major player withdrew because she meant set in her mental health. They weren't supporting her. So I may be so maybe something different will come out of this as well, because you know, those are, I mean, they should been given like a week, which I understand their playoffs and things are happening and there's a timeline, but, but they need timelines can never be more important than human life. So I think the only decent thing you ever could have done would of been as an authority.

Jesper (18m 2s):
They make a decision right down in this spot to say, everybody go home, don't worry about it. Just go home and then send everybody back home. And then the day after waiver could contact the team's and then say, okay, let's figure out when can we play a match in the coming days? That would of been the only humane thing way of doing that. It is not okay to ask people who are in a crisis and in shock to make a decision about two shitty options. I know somebody who was not men emotionally and mentally involved in that should have been the one to be the adult and say, Hey, this is what we're going to do to help people out.

Autumn (18m 38s):
Yeah. Just say, go home, then go home. Right. We will talk about it tomorrow. Let's do this one, a real parent would of done. Would have you been in like, Hey, you know what, don't worry about the game. Everyone go home and take care of yourself and hugged your wife.

Jesper (18m 51s):
Yeah. So, well, this was so much tougher to get through than I even thought. So. Sorry about that listeners. I don't know. I, I just failed. It was so important to talk about something when it really moves. You impacted me quite well over the last couple of days. So can you tell, maybe we should just move on to something else now. All right. If you're ready, if you only, if you're ready, we will continue on

Narrator (19m 17s):
Oh, a week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (19m 23s):
Okay. Let's get back to some businesses and I can start all of my astronomy, My crying. And so I'm just Writing a post for yeah. So I do, I was writing a post for our patron supporters about the issue of discoverability on online platforms like Amazon, because that is really our greatest challenge in today's publishing landscape.

Autumn (19m 46s):
As I see it, I agree. And I wrote something very, very similar for us a day is a release, which of course today being a month ago, and this is released, but yes, I'm also in discoverability, but talking a little bit about Villa and some pros and cons to that as well. And maybe some tips on how to use it for discoverability. So that's definitely something we seem to be doing on Patreon recently.

Jesper (20m 12s):
Yeah, absolutely. Then we also talk more about discoverability in our free self publishing success course. So if you want, you can go to www Am Writing Fantasy dot com and you can get the hands on the free course there. But I did learn a few things while writing this patron post in there. I thought maybe I could just share. That'd be fantastic. Yeah. Well technically, okay. This first one I was aware of already, but I still think it was quite important, at least as a reminder, maybe if other people that were aware as well, but at the price at which you sell your books actually plays a huge role in the book and in the, how the book will show up in searches on Amazon, for example.

Jesper (20m 53s):
So for example, I was linking to some material in the post that shows sort of the behind the scenes of how I'm reaching this conclusion, but I'm not going to go there, but as the patron in supporters can read that stuff. But yeah, just ask the conclusion is that, for example, if you take a book selling 10 copies a day at 6 99 in a search that will rank significantly higher than the books selling 10 copies at 1 99. So the same amount of copies sold, but the one with the higher price will rank significantly higher.

Autumn (21m 29s):
I didn't know that already, but I think it's a good reminder of that.

Jesper (21m 35s):
It doesn't matter what you're selling the price at, what price, your setting. Okay. So it does. So I, for one that's, that's quite important that it is important that it is a good, yeah. And then the other part, which was also very interesting was that it showed that the percentage of people who buy the book after seeing it in a search for that keyword, the keyword is just so let's say this so much for epic fantasy and the books showed up, they clicked and then boarded. Okay. So the people who actually do that matters a lot more than you might think, because the more people that buy the book after finding it through a specific search will make Amazon positioned to book much, much higher in the search results, which is of course, then we will make your sale a lot more books.

Autumn (22m 26s):
Yeah. That will really help selling books. So that's an interesting, so that means that there is no way of faking that one either. So it's not something you have to, but it helps to have good keywords then so that people will link and it fits your book until when they find it, they by it. And then we will elevate the book yet.

Jesper (22m 47s):
But yeah, but we really find this one interesting is, is about shovel things. It's about the key words you say that, that the key words you use are related to what the book is about, but it's also about the book cover and the book description, because when they searched, let's say epic fantasy. You let's say you showed you, you, your books shows up in that because you have some good keywords and so on. But if you have book cover is not signaling signaling to the reader that is epic fantasy. And if the book description, don't clearly show that this epic fantasy, and this is what this book is about, the things that you normally associate with epic fantasy, then they won't buy it. And the more times people will ignore it, then the more Amazon will move it down the list.

Jesper (23m 29s):
Right? Yeah. So I think it speaks a lot about a lot of the things we've talked about over and over again, but how all the different elements like covers book, title, keywords, book, description, it all links together and everything has to work towards the same. And if it does, then it will help you significantly in the ranking.

Autumn (23m 50s):
And I think that's, that's, that's very good to always keep in mind. So that was very good. And it really is a combination of everything. So it's like, you really need to be strong, at least moderately strong in everything. They all have to tie together to a whole that we'll be stronger than all of the individual parts. And hopefully you'll rank better that way. Yeah. I mean that there are more details in that post for our patron supporters.

Jesper (24m 17s):
But I think honestly the more time I spend looking into book marketing Anne and all of those topics, the more convinced I become that ranking is the single most important element when it comes to this success of a book, because you can put Facebook ads, Amazon ads, all of that behind it. But if you can make the ranking work for you it's hundred million times easier and trying to come up with new Facebook ads to push some sales.

Autumn (24m 46s):
It's very sure. Remember you go, you know, tweak your AMS ads or find new targeting books and word's so yeah, that's a very good point and a good reminder to look over your blurbs, look over your book, cover and look over your keywords, get everything going together and move your book up a little bit organically.

Jesper (25m 6s):
Yeah. In indeed. Yes, exactly. So at any rate, if you, dear listener also want access to these kinds of posts and much more than you could consider supporting The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, we try to give you a lot of things in return and you will, of course also help to keep the lights on here. So this, this podcast for example, is completely free. So it is entirely funded by our wonderful patron supporters'.

Autumn (25m 31s):
So there's a link in the show notes, and I think that's not very fair that you mentioned keeping the lights on since mine went off like three times before I got my gurus technical assistance to fix it. So that's why we need some supporters because the light keeps going off.

Jesper (25m 54s):
So yeah. So I have collected all the questions. So I was so glad you did because it's a Monday. I know I showed up and my life like know that that's actually a success in itself. So Monday as it is. And I think listeners will agree with me. There are some Monday's that's just showing up, she'd get you a reward for the day. Indeed. So maybe the simplest thing would be that I just sort of read them out. Ah, and then we answer them one by one. Maybe that's the easiest way to do this.

Autumn (26m 26s):
I think that sounds well. Okay.

Jesper (26m 30s):
And a, and there is no, you know, significant order on this. It's it's just questions and the question is, are the way we got them. So we just gonna answer whatever the listeners wanna know. That sounds good. It sounds lovely. So the first question is, have you tried other genres than fantasy? Oh, I don't. We just start with this one.

Autumn (26m 51s):
Yeah, sure, sure. So yes, definitely. I have, I have written a post-apocalyptic I've written epic fantasy, urban fantasy, dark fantasy. And I know, but it's so different veins of it. So I kind of sometimes thinking about, well, not real mans, but maybe at cozy mystery or something, because I did grow up with Nancy drew and my best friend loved Nancy drew. So I've definitely had that kind of, I love that. Like you're Sherlock Holmes. I love that kind of slew thing and clues, especially the writing applause like that, I think would be a fun challenge, but I haven't written one yet. So mostly POS post-apocalyptic slash dystopian.

Autumn (27m 33s):
And of course non-fiction with both you and with my husband. So those count too, in some real life travel writing sagas as well.

Jesper (27m 46s):
Yeah. Well, for me if, I guess non-fiction is just younger, but that's, that's the only other thing I've written I've written. Yeah. So some with autumn, some of my own nonfiction, I did the fantasy mapmaking book. I did one on how to run right. Fans, as you booked descriptions I'm in the past, I did one on Twitter marketing as well. I synced unpublished that one because it's yeah, but we have a chance to of rules and the entire book sort of became obsolete. So thank you very much Twitter, or maybe stupid me for writing a book where the algorithms might change. So two months later, are you living in there?

Autumn (28m 27s):
And he, I mean, I know you, and I know you had this huge file on world-building notes. I know you must have other notes, like just stacks of ideas of things. So if they were physical, they would be stacks, but yes. Ah, I bet you have some folders of other ideas you've got in there.

Jesper (28m 51s):
Probably plans and write more non-fiction books at any foreseeable future, to be honest with you,

Autumn (28m 56s):
But that's not true. We're actually slowly cause it's on my phone on me to do it. I've been trying to consolidate all of our blog posts and things. Then some Paul, you don't see, we were working on one to how we just,

Jesper (29m 10s):
but, but yeah, that's true. But I guess I don't think about it as writing one because it's more consolidating stuff we already have and putting in one place, but yeah, technically all righty. Yeah. Okay. So next question is, have you both ever met in real life?

Autumn (29m 28s):
No, not yet. That's what's so COVID, COVID that's all I'm saying is COVID and that timing on trips, I haven't made it to, since we've started working together, I've made it to London and we were so close, but I was with in-laws and it was calm. It was complicated. It was a very complicated to sneak away. So it didn't happen.

Jesper (29m 49s):
That's a good ProMedica.

Autumn (29m 52s):
Yeah, I know. I know my mother-in-law all doesn't listen to this, so I'm not too worried, but we will still be diplomatic. And then my parents were actually going to go and do a Norwegian cruise and I was like, Copenhagen, we're going to swing through and I'm going to stay or I'm going to come early and COVID so not yet so soon. Not yet soon yet.

Jesper (30m 12s):
Well, we do have, When I, I can't remember now we talked about it last week on last week's episode on not, but we do have some plans on trying to, if COVID will allow, we have some plans and trying to put like an Am Writing Fantasy getaway together in 2022 S so the way of thing would be that that's probably going to first time we meet in person as well, I guess it could be.

Autumn (30m 36s):
And unless something else happened, but at least we have actually zoom meats, the extended families so that we have done that. So that was really helpful. And I got to see your kids. It's so cute.

Jesper (30m 52s):
Yeah. So yeah. So, but yeah, meaning in real life.

Autumn (30m 57s):
Yeah. It's incredible to think about, because we've done so many podcasts episodes, we've done courses together. We've written nonfiction, book, fiction books, all of that. All of us several years. And we haven't even met in person is that it is, it is insane. And we've got to fix that hopefully soon. And you and my husband already pick on me, like, totally like you're on the same page, which is, I just can't wait for real life.

Jesper (31m 22s):
Yeah. It's only going to get better off so I will touch on things and break them. And that's all that. So, you know, yeah. Yeah. I need to put a stove store things away before you come at you.

Autumn (31m 34s):
Okay. Well, let me hold your phone.

Jesper (31m 38s):
I know technical stuff goes in to the closet with a padlock on it.

Autumn (31m 41s):
I have to see your terabyte computer. And I really know, I know.

Jesper (31m 48s):
All right. Okay. Next question. Which comes first story idea or new world concepts.

Autumn (31m 57s):
Oh, oh, I think for me story idea. But every once in a while you do two, but everyone's in a while you come up with a story or something, part of a world to me, and I'm like, I got to include that. I got to find a world for it. But I think to me, character is almost before story idea. Like I'll come up with a scene and I don't know much else, but I, or I feel this is a draw to a character. And then the story starts developing. So characters story world for me.

Jesper (32m 26s):
Yeah. Same from me. A story idea is definitely before world, but I, I would have responded Xactly like you did all of them. So lets just move on to the next one. So this is probably where you were working together. So you figure, okay, next one. Have you read all of each others books?

Autumn (32m 45s):
Oh that's a mean question for you.

Jesper (32m 51s):
That's too many books know she writes too much.

Autumn (32m 56s):
Oh no, we actually have, I have all your book's because I format all of your books and actually you have to put the cover's now, but I, I, and so I've read bits and pieces because I've been formatting them. But except for what we've written together, I haven't finished your Keystone bone trilogy, which I should. One of these days.

Jesper (33m 17s):
I read Borb of Water.

Autumn (33m 19s):
Yeah. Well just like my worst one.

Jesper (33m 23s):
Yeah. Well, yeah that, but that's exactly how I feel about it that are as well. So if you don't have to read it, then yes. I just do stuff. All right. Well yeah, like we, we read this stuff we write when you write it together anyway. So I guess that counts, I think that counts. So answer is no we have not.

Autumn (33m 47s):
No, because I write too much for you. Y

Jesper (33m 50s):
eah, you do. I, I'm not going to read 20 books,

Autumn (33m 53s):
so you're a slow reader or you have to admit, so if you read like a book a day, you'd probably be all set, but you could just say you take a little bit longer, so that's fair.

Jesper (34m 1s):
Yeah. I'm very slow reader. Yeah. So, okay. What got your started with writing?

Autumn (34m 8s):
Oh, well that's a good one. So yeah, I, you know this story obviously I guess, and we've mentioned at, on podcasts, but I always liked writing. I always was drawn to reading and I did actually win a contest in my high school and my senior year on writing, which I just kind of always forget about it, but I didn't take it seriously. I was big into art of studying studio art actually ending English and college, but it was outside of that when I was working on my master's that I started writing, I would get bored in class at its looked at the back of the notebook and I would start writing stories down instead of taking notes.

Autumn (34m 49s):
And eventually my husband actually found one of those in, he read it and he's like, you've wrote this, this, this is good. You should keep writing. And so I kept writing and I did some adult ed classes thinking I would do the querier letters and a publisher. I did try all of that. But then my husband gave me an article on a government employee who is in a similar vein that I did and she did self-publishing and he's like, you should try this. And I think he gave that to me in early December in, in, in February of 2012, I published Born of Water.

Jesper (35m 26s):
Yeah. And I don't want to cheat in answering this one, but so maybe I'll do the short version because actually if you go back to episode 128, when you list the number of we just did and on all of those interviews, we were asked this question. So I felt like we answered it, like at least five different places. Yeah. But maybe at the very short version was that I had an idea that maybe one time, one day when I would retire, then I would write something. I don't know why I had that idea, but that's sort of always all for very long time set with me that thought, but then doing some other occasions where you always go to Finland, we go to the dishonor and this just peace and quiet in this there and you know, stressful day to day activities or anything like that.

Jesper (36m 16s):
So, and then I just started thinking, why, why is it that I have an idea in my head that I should sort of postpone things until I get retired and why, why couldn't I just start writing? Even if it's just a little everyday, just, you know, I could just start. And then I sorta thought, yeah, why not? So next day I started and I haven't stopped since it was some God awful, awful. What I wrote about the, and it got deleted and I don't even have it anymore, but, but I started all right.

Autumn (36m 45s):
Cause I think I wrote a trilogy before I released my epic fantasy trilogy and my mom of course loves it, but is not published. So I think I broke every single writing roll. You should, the ones that you should follow him in the first like five pages is I've tried to edit it and I'm like, it's just, but I do think I still have the digital files somewhere, somewhere storytelling.

Jesper (37m 12s):
Unless you, you have broken them all out with your fae influence how you know they're probably corrupted.

Autumn (37m 18s):
Yeah. Corrupt. The file is what is going to say. I'll try to, okay.

Jesper (37m 23s):
What made you decide to co-write a fictional book? Why did you decide to go?

Autumn (37m 31s):
All right. I can answer it if you don't know how to say, well, we create a world together and we had to do something with it. I think.

Jesper (37m 40s):
Yeah. Maybe it, maybe it was my fault actually, but I think it was mostly from a pure like business point of view, meaning that co-writing fictional books would of course allow us to write more books and faster. And I think it was purely from a financial and efficiency point of view that we decided, why don't we try to start doing this? Because at the point in time, when we decided to stop co-writing fictional books, we had already done so many other things together. So we knew that we were able to work together. And a, we knew that we could that all ways of thinking if you wanna call it that Align's.

Jesper (38m 25s):
So it wasn't really that big of a leap at that point to say, well, why don't we just start writing some fiction stuff as well? We did test the waters a bit with, with a short story for us just to see like, well this work on it and in what fine. So we could just continue. Yeah. But I think that is basically what it is. Mostly like business decision or more than anything else.

Autumn (38m 47s):
Yes. I know it helps that we are friends so that we would, if we haven't met this person. Yes. I think it's worked out very well though. I seem to, well, I'm finishing up my last independently written books. So once that's done and off my plate, then it will just be ours. And who knows? Maybe a little Vela story here or there, if I feel like I need to dabble, but yeah. It's is really exciting. I can not wait to at least this trilogy.

Jesper (39m 13s):
No, indeed. Yeah. Okay. The next question is what tropes where you determined to avoid?

Autumn (39m 18s):
Oh, I forgot. I know of you started this one. Let me think so.

Jesper (39m 23s):
Okay. You can think while I can at least give you two tropes that we definitely wanted to avoid. One was having way too powerful of a character because that happens not all the time, but it happens fairly frequent in some epic fantasy stories. And when the character is just too powerful, their story also looses a lot of its attention. So we definitely wanted to not do that trope. And the other trope that we really wanted to avoid was also, we, we did want to include some of the more traditional fantasy races, like Ember dwarfs, but we wanted to avoid your typical version of those races.

Jesper (40m 7s):
So we, we have elves and we have dwarves, but I was ah, should we just say significantly different? Yeah. So I think that's the way of putting it there.

Autumn (40m 20s):
Yeah. I love our differences. They're incredibly interesting. So yeah, I definitely think those were the main tropes. I mean, we also knew we wanted to stay at all like fantasy romance. So I stopped really in support of a subplot then a trope.

Jesper (40m 35s):
Yeah. I would say there's a bit of a romance in this story as well, because then I think that all these should be, but that's my personal point of view, but a lot of readers, like at least a subplot, but some wrote romance. So we do have that in our stores as well. But yeah, but I th can you think have something else that, should we move to the next question?

Autumn (40m 55s):
Well, I'm trying to think there's so many, there's nothing because of the world is so big and we wanna write so many different stories, I would say, except for like not having this overwhelming power, but we might end up with some powerful characters, but then there's always good to points and tension. I think almost everything is on the table except for bad writing. So I think we're all. So have you work for the next series of, we want to work on we're exploring something that we're even having a hard time finding examples of of, so I think we're just going to do so tell people we're just going to be so cool, but yeah, so I would say there's not much that we could not find some way of going, oh, that's a horrible idea.

Autumn (41m 47s):
But if we did this, we can turn it on it's head. So I think anything's going. Sure.

Jesper (41m 54s):
Okay. Next question. How long did it take to, oh, sorry. How long did it take you to fully complete your first story?

Autumn (42m 2s):
Oh, that's mean I just take it. They want the first one that we actually published is correct. Probably, probably. I like to say that born of water, I think took me three to five here. I do. I, well, I, I started at then I ended up writing handwriting, a story that became the whole series of Friends of my Enemy. And then I went back to Born of Water and worked on it again. I ended up rewriting it three times. Cause the first time was just typical fantasy tropes. It was boring and I knew it could be so much better. And then so I rewrote it and then the second time after that, so the final time I rewrote it, the third time was M I just thought of the characters were jiving in fitting.

Autumn (42m 51s):
I had so much to learn even with an English degree and writing classes in creative writing classes, in adult ed classes, it just had so much learning to do. And I still look back at it and go, oh God is so much learning to do. But yeah, it took a long time. But then Rule of Fire was a year of Spiri of Life was like nine months. And when I did Friends and my Enemy, I did four and a half books in a year. So we got faster and better. Definitely better. Definitely very luckily enough, but how is how it goes very much so.

Jesper (43m 32s):
Yeah, I think my, my first book was one and a half year, I think.

Autumn (43m 38s):
Oh, that's not bad.

Jesper (43m 40s):
No, but it's not quick. I mean, I know that, well, all of these is relative one person, so quick is another person's slow. So, but one and a half year, I think for the first book and then book number two took me maybe half a year, a bit more than half a year. Same for books three.

Autumn (44m 1s):
So, and nowadays I think, well we were down to like four months, three, four, and then combine any when I each have my books in the tainted face areas, which is the last one I'm releasing on my own. I was writing a book and two and a half months. And those were 80 to 90,000 words a little bit. I think the last one is a little bit longer in that took, that took a little bit longer, but yeah. And then editing of course. So another, it usually takes me a month to edit so three and a half months for a complete book.

Jesper (44m 35s):
I think I've gotten. Yeah. Okay. This one is interesting. What are your ambitions?

Autumn (44m 44s):
Is that on writing or is it personal? It just says, what are you ambitions?

Jesper (44m 51s):
Oh, I'm of course reading is as part of the, you know, the author career. That's at least how I read it.

Autumn (44m 56s):
All right. I was gonna say, I know my ambition as a young young girl and still, I would love to be the first ecologist is on another planet. Cause that would be fricking cool. So barring that because I'd probably not gonna be the first button is on another planet unless like trip into a worm hole and end up there on my own writing wise. I definitely, I don't. And that's weird because I can actually say I, of course I wanna sell more books. So I want more readers. I would love to be as big as maybe, you know, commander George R. Martin, but I'm also, I do it because I love it as well.

Autumn (45m 39s):
So I'm really happy. I've got over 20 books. I have to think about this one. What's your ambitions at this point, we besides maybe from selling more and writing more.

Jesper (45m 54s):
Yeah. But that's why I think is a good question because of the more you think about it, the more layers there is to it definitely. I mean, I would like to, I would like to earn like a very healthy living from, from writing. That would be an awesome, I think, and I would really love to see our own fans as you will come to life on, on a TV series, like on Amazon or Netflix or something like that would just be awesome. I would just love that. So I guess that's an ambition. How does an ambition I have to say, I, I, I think it would be really cool to be well known enough that like the release of maybe the last book of a series was almost like an event.

Autumn (46m 41s):
And if that was ever the case, I would love to have on like other indie authors, like have them do readings of their stories while we're waiting for my books is released because I would just be such a cool way to support the indie community to introduce them. Yeah. Introducing them to other new writers and even to have other writers I've in, we want other writers to hopefully Wright in our world. And I thought about the tainted phase kind of set up the same way where it could go into ways, places where I can't write it. So if someone else wanted to pick it up, that would be, we were really, really swell to half kind of a world where people like, I want to write with you. That would be fantastic.

Autumn (47m 22s):
Yeah. That be cool.

Jesper (47m 23s):
Yeah. Okay. What are your favorite authors fantasy or otherwise to particularly resonate with your style or have influenced you? You don't wanna start with this one. So that's a tough one. Tough one.

Autumn (47m 38s):
Well, I can say obviously, you know, this, that Anne McCaffrey is the author. Who'd introduced me to fantasy writing. So I I've recently gone back and re-read the first full book of her is Dragon Flight. So that's the one that I read first and I look read it and it's not that the writing isn't good. The writing is good, but the theme's, you know, what's aloud the, one of the main hero, literally a the hero. And she is afraid of him at times he shakes her and it's supposed to be love. And I'm thinking, yeah, that's all I had the 13 year old. Yeah. So it's like if I had a 13 year-old girl, we would be sitting down in and talking about why this isn't appropriate, how it's changed.

Autumn (48m 18s):
This has never, in a way you should be treated by someone who loves you. So I was really shocked, but I want to go back Mercedes Lackey. I know, changed my views on a lot of things. She's a very liberal writer. She is a very good writer. I wanna go back and reread it like her M Waldemar series of Harold majors and stuff in it. Whenever we were just a couple of those to see if there is good, as I remember as well. And of course, maker Margaret Rice and Tracy Hickman we're in there. And then a few in there. And my favorite book is actually called the wood wife by Terry Wendling, which is odd because it is more, is not even urban fantasy.

Autumn (48m 58s):
It takes part in the desert. But the secret of this book is that it was inspired by my favorite artist who is Brian Froud. So if no one has watched, you know, like labyrinth and all of there, crystal, all of those things are puppets here in his wife created the frauds. He is absolutely. I got to see his work in person. When I was sent my year in England, I went to one of his viewings. Then I got to see Brian Froud original paintings. It was fantastic. And there was a series of four books written based on his paintings. And I have all four of them and yeah, T a the wood wife, which is the third one based on his paintings is one of my favorite ever.

Jesper (49m 44s):
Oh, nice. That's a much better answer. And I can come up with that. But I, it was like, well, I'm with you on migrant rights. And Tracy Hickman, of course the dragon, all lands stories were the ones that introduced me to fenders you. When I was a kid,

Autumn (50m 1s):
did you read Star of the Guardians? That was also by then, that's more of a space opera. I highly recommend that. Not to interrupt, but you should read it too.

Jesper (50m 12s):
Okay, cool. Yeah. Well actually bought a, just like a month ago, I bought a whole, the dragon lands books, all survey on my Kindle and I will read them all again. That's awesome. So, yeah. Other than that, I would say probably Anne Rice. Oh yeah. And because I have tried to read some of, of, of an rise books that are not the vampire critical Chronicals, but those are not really not my favorite. Umm, some of them, it feels, I don't know if it's just coincidence, but then I think there's a lot of like religion stuff in all the books, not nothing against religion.

Jesper (50m 55s):
People can do write and read what they want, but it's just not quite kind of my cup of tea. But the vampire story is like interview with the vampire in all those books, with all this stuff and all that stuff. It is just, I still have this vivid memory of reading through these books in and just the whole mythology she created about how the first vampires came to be and how we know everything involved and all, all of that origin story is, is just like, oh my God, I loved it. It was just like, it was so well done and it makes perfect sense as well. There was, there was logic to it, so oh my God. I just loved that.

Jesper (51m 36s):
She was yeah, really good at foreshadowing in not having major plot holes and CAC characters that are just gripping and storylines that are gripping and not being afraid of killing things off. So it was, yeah, I do love her books as well. So yeah, that's probably what has had the most influence on me I think. And it plays into my love for world building. Of course that's very much to do with world-building. Yes. Okay. Next question. Have you ever started a book that just died in the draft? How did you know it was dead?

Autumn (52m 12s):
I will actually, I can say yes because I started writing books to two black throne black blood, which is the first park is out as a novella. And so I started writing the second book, which is to be a titled Ebonrue and I was probably three or four chapters. And maybe even as far as five chapters, which I know we were talking about an novella, so that's, you know, it's, it's good chunk out of 14 chapters. And I just said, no, I was struggling with it. I was in hating the process and I absolutely love writing. And the funny thing is I was playing with two series at the same time and I kept thinking about the tainted Fae I'd released in first novella, both of them to see which one I wanted to right in.

Autumn (52m 54s):
And I finally just said, you know what? I really want to write the tainted Faye. And I switched to it. And I think I like busted out the entire book one then, like I said, in like two and a half months. So it's not, I don't consider it fully abandoned because you and I are either talking about picking up that series or that theme or if we don't eventually I will finish it because I don't think I've ever, I even know that series is that my abandon trilogy that I'll never publish I finished at. So I always kind of finish what I start.

Jesper (53m 31s):
Yeah. And again, the same for me when I start something, I will usually finish it. So, but technically, I mean, I have had the first book in my Keystone bone truly do you, for example, and what is Papa is, is not the same as the well I started, so I've definitely, definitely died in the draft and I actually deleted 50,000 words and started over and I'd heard a bid at that point in time, but I knew it was stepped because it was just organically evolving into a story that was not what I wanted to tell at all.

Jesper (54m 10s):
And hence I sort of learned maybe it's all good, good idea to plot. That's very true. Yeah. Okay. Have you ever released a book that flopped and what did you learn?

Autumn (54m 26s):
I would say Friends of my Enemy has all been, had a hard life the entire time. Those who have found it have loved it and like given it five stars and they adore it, but they're definitely lower and it is AMS ads. I, you cannot touch the word like this dystopian post-apocalyptic it costs more to get clicks on those words because of novels like the hunger games you just can't afford. It is more than the book it's worse, so I don't even market it. But when I read it is some of my favorite writing up to the Tainted Fae. I actually DOR the tainted face is more than friends of my enemy, but I think it's better writing and better characters in my epic fantasy series.

Autumn (55m 14s):
So I feel bad for it that the people that it's like my unnoticed story that no one really knows about. And a lot of the fantasy readers are like, oh, I don't read post-apocalyptic because it's like, it's near future it's real world. But it taught me so much. I wouldn't have been able to write the Tainted Fae, which is also in urban fantasy it's real world it's now. So I wouldn't of been able to do and it was a great learning experience. I still absolutely adore it. If anything was ever turned into a movie, I think that one would fit very well because the characters are just rock solid. Awesome. And they still talk to me a lot. So I don't care. I feel I would love it to do better. The people who have read it, we love it to do better.

Autumn (55m 57s):
The narrator would like it to do better, but I am, I am a hundred percent is still in love with it. I don't care.

Jesper (56m 9s):
Yeah. And I would say the first book in my Keystone bone turn of the desolation as definitely not done very well. And I mean, it gets downloaded quite well, but that's because its Permafree so, so, but before then it was very hard to any, any copies of it. And I, and I think because the question also asks what I learned and I definitely learned three different things, but of course I can mention here so that the listeners can take that away in hopefully avoid the mistakes I've made. But number one is that the world building is actually very rich in this book and in the series and is very well developed.

Jesper (56m 50s):
But then like, like you see often in new fantasy authors, I'm in debut novels and I was like everybody else. So then there's way too much in for dumping in this book in a way too much nun, engaging ways of telling sum, you know, a history of the world of why things all the way, day on, so on. And then that's not very good I'm so there is debt. Secondly, I used this book actually as an example in our self publishing success course to show people what not to do because the, the cover on this book is not signaling that this is fantasy and is not doing a very good job.

Jesper (57m 30s):
And as I said, so, you know, of course I, you know, I used it as an example of show you is not what, not what not to do. And I, as I also said, and the costs, I should really change it, but I never get around to it because there's so many things I need to change this so many places. And 'cause this book is, has been out for so many years. It's not as simple as just updating the cover on Amazon. I need to, I probably have like 200 different tweets schedule that goes out and then I need to change the Amazon, all of those and on websites. And so on is, I don't know, it's just too much worse. And I, I really don't feel like in, and the other hand and allows me to is show in this so puppet, so cost, what you have to do. So, so it actually serves a purpose nowadays.

Jesper (58m 17s):
And number three, last thing I would say as a top three things I learned was that you are a character and your main character really needs to have some sort of personality or something that stands out. Whereas the main character and this book, well, she definitely has hardship in her life because I'm always mean to characters or if there is that. So she does not have an easy time at all, but she's not distinct enough that there is there's something missing in terms of making her more special. So that's also something I learned. I learned a lot more about character development since I wrote that first book, but that's how it goes, like all of them, so that before the more we ride the mobile and we all have to start somewhere.

Jesper (58m 59s):
And so usually when we look back at, at, at our own first books, years later, we always crunch all of them. Doesn't like her first book. I don't like my first book. And I think most authors feel the same. Yes. But there are, it doesn't mean that it is a bad story at all. It's a good story, but it's, it's just, I could have written it a lot better nowadays if, if I did it now, but so is life that's very, yeah.

Autumn (59m 23s):
Born of water would be so different. So I wrote it now, but I'm not going to go back and rewrite it because that's like 20 some books ago.

Jesper (59m 31s):
So yeah. So we have two questions left, Autumn, and we're coming up on an hour. So let's do it in last two. And then I think that's enough.

Autumn (59m 40s):
Okay. All right. That sounds good.

Jesper (59m 42s):
So this one goes in style story description, et cetera. What a piece of work chains, if you switched roles in your co-writing. Oh yes. Oh yes. But I'm not sure I could pinpoint how, but definitely. Well, you have, I mean, I'm a more of, I, you do the first draft and I do sort of like my overlayer and then I do the editing and we're still kind of working out the process. I still haven't there's some days I got it all was perfect. And then there's some days I fumble with in a bit, so I am still working in and out, but I think it's, it would be so different if we did it in reverse.

Jesper (1h 0m 23s):
I don't think it would work quite the same way.

Autumn (1h 0m 28s):
No, me neither. I would definitely be different for sure.

Jesper (1h 0m 33s):
I think the other thing is that keep in mind that Autumn is a native English speaker. I'm not right. So switching, it just makes no sense because having, having all of them doing the, the last touches on it is just much smarter rather than somebody who is not a native English speaker, trying to edit something, an English speaker has written in it it's sort of does not make much sense to me.

Autumn (1h 0m 58s):
Yeah. I think it would be pretty inefficient. Yeah. I, I don't think we could do anything other than maybe me making a more in depth plot and you writing it and then me doing what I'm still doing. And that's just seems silly because we already, we beat and we talk about the plot and we come up with together. So why would they do it first?

Jesper (1h 1m 16s):
All my, yeah, I think of it. Yeah. And then the other part is, and the other part is that you quite like editing and I hate everything. So there's that as well.

Autumn (1h 1m 26s):
Yeah, that's true. So if we ever want to torture, you all know, please don't make me edit anything.

Jesper (1h 1m 36s):
Well, so, okay. Last question. How do you know when to finish editing and put the book out?

Autumn (1h 1m 42s):
So this is when you give it to me, right?

Jesper (1h 1m 46s):
Well, yes, you send it to all of them and it's done.

Autumn (1h 1m 52s):
So for me, the answer, this question, and I know it's done what, I always start with a content, but I do a read through as fast as I can as many chapters as I can end of day. And I have a spreadsheet, which is a very organized and just Jesper should be very proud of it because this is a gorgeous spreadsheet. And I usually avoid spreadsheet. If you have to say, well, I avoid them like the plague. So I have to have one good one and it's a very in depth. And once I have, I go back and I fix the chapters that I have highlighted as these are the ones that need the most work. And then I go back and fix all the other ones. And then I go back and I run it through like pro writing aid and do all those changes in.

Autumn (1h 2m 34s):
Sometimes if I of chance, if I feel like there's still something missing, I'll do one more, you know, gentle, fluff through. But then we send it to the editor and then we send it to the other editor and then they send it back to me. And I do the corrections and changes from both editors. And if I have a time, I'll read through it one more time. I do a lots of, lots of lots of pieces. So basically I know is ready to be published when I'm dreaming it, eating and sleeping it, I can recite passages from it by heart and have a whole book of quotes to the side that I know that I've pulled out. I all, I have often left and readers. Like how can do you remember about a book you've written? And I'm like, do you know, I've probably read this story 50 times is probably not that bad, but I've read the book that we're publishing at least 20 times before it is actually published.

Autumn (1h 3m 23s):
And that's what I know it's done as, and the biggest joke, this is a joke. I've read it in her scene. And other people's of mentioned that when you're editing and you change something and then the next editing passed, you change it back to how it was, you know, you're done.

Jesper (1h 3m 40s):
Yeah. That was just from what I was about to say, because I fully agree that obviously you need to be thorough. And that's also why we use two different editors to edit every book. So then it goes through more people than, than just the single editor. Ah, and then we usually have some typos layers as well on the backend, maybe 20, 30, 50 people on the backend who also goes through. So it's been a through a lot of people before we publish it. But all of that said, I still wanna sort of post S S like warning out there that there is a time where you need to say, okay, this is as good as I can make it. And let's move on to the next book, because keep polishing and polishing to get it like zero dot 5% better.

Jesper (1h 4m 21s):
That's just not worth your time. So all of this comes with a warning.

Autumn (1h 4m 26s):
Yes. There's a point of diminishing returns, which I just was something I was trying to email you the other day. I actually finally remembered the word I was trying to say, but there's a point of diminishing returns on that little curve where, you know, it's taking more work than it's worth. And that's when you know, or the other way, you know, is when your writing partner says, here's the next book for you to work. And you're like, okay, so the next one is going off to the editor.

Jesper (1h 4m 56s):
Good point. Yeah. So I think above all, thank you so much all through all of your listeners for sending you these questions.

Autumn (1h 5m 4s):
I think actually, yes, very much. So we might have to do this once a year or something.

Jesper (1h 5m 10s):
Yeah. Maybe, maybe. So, thank you so much for your questions. And next Monday, if everything goes well, all of them will have a great and interesting interview lined up for you.

Narrator (1h 5m 25s):
Do you like what you just heard? There's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/ Am Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 133 – Tips on How to Write Fiction Well

The more you write, the better you’ll get at it. Some think that you’re naturally born as a good writer, but that’s not the case. Practice is the only thing that’ll make you better.

In this episode of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper aim to make your journey a bit easier with some advice on fiction writing which you can go and implement right away.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello. I'm Jesper.

Autumn (31s):
And I'm on,

Jesper (33s):
This is episode 133 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And then we are talking about how it well today, Right? And the, I suppose this could be both a very broad topic as well as very narrow one. All of them.

Autumn (49s):
Yes. When I saw the topic for this one this morning, I was like, oh, this was the one we were like, oh, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll come up with some tips. It'll be fine. I'm thinking, I wish we had done some more specifics of it. I sat down and I wrote out some tips. I did my homework for this one. I Ramez.

Jesper (1m 7s):
Wow. That's that's good. So you're probably gonna have some very, very good tips today.

Autumn (1m 12s):
Yeah. You sure this is a couple of them. I think you probably already have on your list and I know you already have a list, so I'm not that worried.

Jesper (1m 19s):
Yes, I do have the list yet.

Autumn (1m 20s):
So I just knew that this sort of melting away or we're there in the U S at the moment. So yeah, I don't like warm weather. I always laugh when I was in a science class and found it out there. There's a fly that you think that it gets below 85 degrees Fahrenheit. There is some protein in it's brain that unwinds, it, it kind of like fall's over and ex dead and you cool it down and be like, oh yeah, there really is it all. I heard that I'm like, its true. I always send my brain kinda just like go and it gets too warm and I get too warm and I've just not myself. And I'm like, is this true? It's about 85 degree is definitely my, my threshold.

Autumn (2m 3s):
And it's, it's not, it's probably, it's supposed to be cooler today as it goes to the upper eighties, it's been in the nineties, but it's high humidity.

Jesper (2m 11s):
Like literally there's tender storms around. So we're at ed, the 90% humidity. You walk out, say side and it's like breathing water and it's just, oh I can't do that. Just know.

Autumn (2m 24s):
So you're gonna fall over at any minute now. And the act it until somebody comes in, cools you down. Good.

Jesper (2m 30s):
Yeah. So if you are suddenly left in charge of the podcast on your own, if people are listening and you're like, where's all that up. Well, that's how I passed out. It's fine please. Don't I got a cool drink and to turn off my AC for the recording. So, you know, listeners I'm care about you, but the sound quality I turned off my AC, which means we are going to wrap this one up quick. In about 10 minutes. We are going to be done on out of here. Oh, but that's okay.

Autumn (3m 2s):
It'll be a, yeah. You don't know if you saw the Instagram picture, but I, I took my dog and Dalton very well. It took my dog to the vet and he did very well. And he was so excited to get out of the cabin because of the, you know, Adam has been away north. So it just makes me and him and it's been too warm to go for a walk. You, it looks like he looks like a fizzy gig with legs. Okay. If anyone needs to picture my dog and he's a Fizzigig with legs, small legs, you are a small X. And so I hadn't been walking him is way too hot for him. He's he was bred for the Northern Scotland. He does not like the heat either, but we knew he was so excited to go somewhere to the vet. He was like whining and the car. He never whined, but the whole time.

Autumn (3m 43s):
So you would just chattering away. Then finally we got back from the, but we got out of the vet and I looked at him and he looked at me and like, you wanna go walk you so it, you know, and so even though it was so hot, I drove him to a nice, there's only so many places around here that there is forested and water for. It does not have a ton of water compared to me and where it used to live. And so we did the hike around this lake and I throw him in, had him go chiefs, frogs. He is a M predator dogs. So he loves choosing small creatures like frogs, the defenseless creatures. He likes feeling things. He is a home murderer. I sleep the next door every night.

Autumn (4m 23s):
I mean the dragon he is. So that's where it he's been. He has been the inspiration for, to have of my small sidekick characters. And by the time we got to the top part of the hike, I just looked at him and then bring it swimsuit. But screw it. I jumped in with them and we had a little bit of a swim. It was good. So how are things on your side? Yeah, well, yeah, I think for the most part is just a lot of sports on TV these days to be all right. It's an exciting though. So we have sports again, right?

Jesper (5m 0s):
Yeah. It's pretty cool. You know, and we, of course, so we're recording a bit ahead of time here. 'cause we are trying to bang some episodes to cover for some of the occasion we're of course we're still going to release episodes even though we're going to be on vacation. So we're trying to prerecord. So that's just to say that what I'm about to mention now already took place some time ago, by the time you listened to this. So that's why it might seem off a bit time wise. But anyway, we watched the world cup final in ice hockey this past weekend and it was between Canada and Finland. Oh, those are two good teams. So that's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a nerve wrecking experience.

Autumn (5m 41s):
You know, as the listeners might

Jesper (5m 43s):
Know my wife, his finished and my son's AR also finished citizens, ah, as well as Danish. So, you know, you, you can work out who we were rooting for it Canada. Not really, but honestly I feel so bad for my youngest son because during the, over it, it went to the overtime. And then I dunno if it was a couple of minutes of something into, I don't know, I don't remember it, but into the over-time one of the Finnish players makes like this slightest mistake. Oh, you know, and on this level and the world cup final, just the slightest mistake. It does not go on punished at the squat at the winning goal as sort of some of my youngest son, he was so sad that he started crying.

Jesper (6m 34s):
He was so, so sad. And even in the next day he woke up a and I ask it, I always asks him in the morning, went when the boys we go have all their way is to ask them how the slept not really good was so, so sad. I'm so sorry for this little guy you just met so much to him. Two when that final and that's he is going to need therapy is gonna remember this 20 years from now. He'll remember it. I'm sure it was like, I I'm pretty sure he was in there. It was, it was good. But we had a new channel now though, because of the European championship in sucker kicking off this week.

Jesper (7m 16s):
So nice. Actually on Saturday then Marc will play against Finland. Ow. Oh, that's cool. So who do you route for in the family? Just like, it's so much of a dilemma, but I actually, to be honest, I think its worst for my son. Then it is for me, 'cause, you know, I I'm born and raised and Denmark show. Yeah, of course I route for Denmark. Right. But that's, that's the tough one because they're both. So who do you roofer? I don't know. We can draw straws and the thing of switch halfway through this, just let the family too and to, and that's fair. No, that's just the way it is going to be.

Jesper (7m 58s):
My, my son, my son is a soccer coach. I actually asked him. So how are you gonna handle the fact that the Finland plays against them mark? And he, he is, he was sort of, you know, looking at, into the sky for the moment thinking, and then he said, well, I think I'm going to sort of paint down the middle and then I'll have Finland and then Denmark one on each side,

Autumn (8m 22s):
They're adorable.

Narrator (8m 26s):
Oh, weak on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (8m 30s):
Okay. So I notice that the Am Writing Fantasy Facebook group has passed 5,000 members. Now I think we have 5,200 or something when I checked this morning and goodness knows. But at the time this has released, it's probably gonna be 6,000. Its crazy. There is so exciting. It's a lot of fantasy authors in one place really is. We are a very powerful and well I'd say the group, we're not even that quiet.

Autumn (8m 58s):
We're quite feisty. Like it it's fun and chatty and supportive and talk fitness, the art and characters and life and promotions. It's it's there there's always something going on in there, right?

Jesper (9m 12s):
Yeah, for sure. I, when I, I posted about the podcast episode where we talked about a worst things you can do to a character. And that was an episode 1 28 and I laughed so much. So Terri and the response, did you see that right?

Autumn (9m 27s):
No, no. I have to go in and see it. I haven't been in there. I had a small computer swapping issue that we'll discuss later, but I was kind of absorbed into fixing a problem. So no, I didn't go see it, but no, with Terry an say she is pretty funny. Yeah. And remember, we're talking about bad things to do against characters here. So, so disrespected from Terry on is of course in that nature and therefore also pretty nasty.

Jesper (9m 54s):
So can you just didn't wanna hear it?

Autumn (9m 56s):
So yes is definitely.

Jesper (9m 58s):
OK. So she said, quote, I have one that I didn't realize until after the fact that I killed every once you loves her parents, her had adoptive mother, one of her children. I'm pretty sure if she ever met me, she would slap me. And of course, oh yeah. I always, I could see that. I think in that episode I said, I always feel bad for my favorite characters because I'm so mean to them, but I know that it can take it out, but I'm so mean to them. And as you said, when I was going through my cursed phase this year and you're like, well, you're just the, you're the hero in some story. And the author thinks that you're going to, you need to be tortured a little bit for some character development.

Autumn (10m 39s):
Yeah. That's great. I love it. Yeah. I imagine, imagine you could talk to them in real life. They're like, why are you doing all this to me? Well, on the other side you will come out a better person. Just trust me. It was just like, no, I didn't want to try it. Just stopped doing it. I want an easy day, Darren. It. So whenever your yelling into the universe and this is so unfair and unjust, think about your characters talking to you. That's how they feel. Yeah. Could I just fall ones have one single chapter where nothing bad happens, please. It's a long healing because your unconscious no, no.

Jesper (11m 20s):
The, the group is definitely been so much fun recently. So I do love it over there. Yeah. So if you are a deal list, now haven't joined us yet. The just search for Am Writing Fantasy in the group section of Facebook and you will find us. Yes and no. Actually I noticed that Ernest Hemingway had the following tips when it comes to writing well, so I thought that was probably an interesting place to start. So he said sounds good, shoot.

Autumn (11m 54s):
Yeah. You said you should stop all. You should use short sentences and also right. Short, first paragraphs.

Jesper (12m 2s):
What do you think of those two tips to start off all of them?

Autumn (12m 6s):
I would say you use varied sentences, but I definitely think a short lead in sentence, especially with like your first, not how people worked so hard with that first line of their novel, but I sometimes think just a short kind of punchy one that makes you go ha is a fantastic way of opening a story and keeping that first paragraph kind of short. But I would definitely say I noticed this and I've talked with other authors about this currently because of the size of reading screens, like Kindle screens are kind of small and people need on their phones, shorter paragraphs and shorter sentences are definitely becoming the norm because you don't want to read something that is literally a wall of text on your phone screen.

Autumn (12m 50s):
So some paragraphs have gotten down to like two sentences, which sometimes I think that's crazy, but I also have to admit whenever I see something that's longer than like three sentences, I'm like, oh for goodness sakes. So in some way, or you could say it, Ernest Hemingway was way ahead of his time.

Jesper (13m 8s):
He was thinking about the Kindle before it even existed.

Autumn (13m 10s):
Exactly. And he just, he was a head of the curve.

Jesper (13m 14s):
He nailed it.

Autumn (13m 15s):
But I do you like some Hemingway quotes because he was the one who said write drunk, edit sober. I'm like, yeah, that is, that's the wonderful writing advice. So yeah. I'm not sure you're convinced About that one, but one at least, but then Right tipsy, then don't be drunk on writing. I did.

Jesper (13m 33s):
Right.

Autumn (13m 33s):
Actually just see that as a famous quote by somebody else to always be drunk on your writing because it'll keep you inspired. Okay. Yeah. That's one of those fancy quote things that sounds really good, but in reality it's right. You really like that, but probably not. But I mean, yeah. I don't know. I, I sort of have some things that sort of, it's both here and there and whatever. So I mean there was no particular order to do it.

Jesper (14m 5s):
Right. Tough. To be honest. Yeah. I did the same thing. It just, yeah. It's just some thoughts about this and that. He and they're right. Well, how come we both shared you share thought and I'll share a thought and I'm sure we have some thoughts in common because I know one of mine is, is totally already on your list. I already know it. Okay. Yeah. We can do that. So do you want me to start?

Autumn (14m 25s):
Sure. Since you've volunteered, go ahead of you or you can stop it. That's okay. If you want, you want to, if you feel like that's so important then right. If you're intimidated and want me to go first, I can do that just to make all of your mind, then you want to go, go, go, go. I'm going to melt here. Come on. Quick, quick, quick.

Jesper (14m 48s):
Yeah. Well I think for stop, there is something to be said about using like simple and direct language. I think clarity brings a lot in order to improve one's writing. So, but I think as well, I want to say that there are no like real fixed rules that you need to follow. And there's nothing like once you've learned these rules, then your writing will be the best it can ever be that this doesn't exist. And so I feel like that's probably the, one of the best things to get out there before we even get any further into this topic.

Autumn (15m 25s):
No, I totally agree. And actually that was one of the, it's not on my list, but it, it was one of my thoughts is there, there are a few rules for writing, but at the same time, there really aren't. Like I said, one of my favorite poems as the Jabber walkie, which is a hundred percent nonsensical words, but I love it cause its so much fun to say, so you don't have to even use real language. You can completely make it up and be famous for centuries. 'cause it is such a fun poem. So there really aren't any rules, but you need to take everything we say and everything that editors other authors, other readers say and figure out what fits your style and what you want to create with your writing.

Autumn (16m 8s):
But you should also, you know, if you're just learning, following some of the top guidelines will help you maybe figure out where your going with your own author, voice and style.

Jesper (16m 24s):
Yeah. I agree in that. I think as well that, I mean, of course we're going to, we're going to share some tips here and of course is not that wants you just ignore tips and I, it, it's a good take on board, the good advice and so on and, and, and figure out what works for you. But at the same time, I think the point is just don't follow it blindly, you know?

Autumn (16m 49s):
Oh, he's be purposeful. Yes. But do you think that makes sense, but for your first one where you talked about brevity, I mean, I agree that's such a, I mean there's so many, there are so many quotes about you. No kill your darlings, cut out the flour and the language. You know, if it, the fewer words that you can use to say something really helps you don't need to be over prosaic. There are some genres, maybe the literary genres and stuff where you, where those flowery prosaic languages are fun and they're more accepted, but mostly, I mean, fantasy has some beautiful descriptions, but then it has a lot of, you know, action and things happening and punchy language.

Autumn (17m 30s):
I especially love short, punchy sentences. It helps me to know some really long ones. Yeah. So figure out you'd do some varied, but I definitely, I recently had an editor say that they had never read a story. I think how did she say it that, you know, use their was so well-described and so vivid and real, but you such minimal amount of words. Very I'm very minimalistic, I guess in my word choice, I don't repeat myself, but I don't have tons of weird new words. I just, I want the story to shine. Not how I say the story, right? No. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Alright. So are you ready for my first tip?

Jesper (18m 12s):
Yep. For sure.

Autumn (18m 13s):
Some how this became a competition again.

Jesper (18m 14s):
I think so. Well, yeah, that's it. I was just thinking about it before and then I thought, well, I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to draw attention because the point of this episode is really not to make one of our top 10 coroner, the source of competition listed at all. So I'm going to stay away from that. And I'm just going to listen to your advice now.

Autumn (18m 32s):
All right. Well, mine is, is a typical one that you'll hear everywhere, but I have a specific purpose for it, but I would say if you want to learn to write, well, you do need to read and read in your genre. But I would say don't just read. My advice is actually to take your favorite book and rip it apart and find out why does your favorite book? What makes it tick? What is the plot? How are characters introduced? What are the sentence likes? What is your favorite scene? Don't just read it, but actually pull it apart and look under the hood and see what's there. It's like your own little study. You know, if you're in high school is your, your private study tasks or whatever when you're going to work on your own.

Autumn (19m 14s):
So do that. It really helps. I think to look at something you absolutely adore and not just say I love it. That's my favorite book with is find out why one in it. Do you really love? And you will learn probably more from that than I think I did in my college classes on the writing. So go and go and tear it apart.

Jesper (19m 36s):
Look it adverb reuse. That'll really tell you and your genre, how may or how often you should be using adverbs, how often you, you should be using SED versus growled or whispered, looked at your favorite story and don't mimic it, but pull it apart. C why you like it? I put it back together in your own style and see what you create. Yeah, I think I remember you said at some point as well, that when you need it to get your head into the right sort of writing mentality or writing space, then you read, or you read a bit of George RR Martin, I think you set at some point and then your right back into where you want to be.

Autumn (20m 10s):
Yeah. He, there is something about his writing that is so fluid and concrete in this deep point of view that I can re I have a few favorite paragraphs and some pages that I can read one of his, and it's just, it instantly resets my mind at this is the level of writing I want to do and I can get back into my own voice, but it reminds me of the voice that I'm trying to find.

Jesper (20m 34s):
Yeah. I'm still struggling with that. To be honest, I fully agree with, with your response or you advise in terms of reading aloud in this genre. And I do that as well. I, I always, I'm always reading a book, one book on the other, but I think, I don't know why, but I'm really struggling with finding something that I really like. Mmm. Most of it, I try to even pick up the stories that are hugely popular and stuff like that. And I just don't, I don't, I don't, they don't engage me very well. I don't know what's going on. Maybe I'm just weird. I don't know. I don't disagree. The last three or four books I've picked up.

Jesper (21m 16s):
I've been frustrated and the little disappointed and yeah, its I'm in a definitely, I'm trying really hard to find something I'm enjoying. I'm actually thinking, I want to go read some open sticking to it like an epic fantasy and regular fantasy, you know, heroic fantasy.

Autumn (21m 34s):
I actually think I want to go read some literary fantasy, which has a stronger emphasis on foreshadowing and really deep plots as well as really strong characters. So you sometimes don't do as well in the characters, but I think I just want to cut my teeth on something with some really strong plot lines. Cause if I read something else that is nonsensical, I'm going to bash my head against the wall or my kid at all or something.

Jesper (21m 58s):
Yeah. I'm not going to mention the name of either of the book or the author here, but I am reading the one that is insanely popular right now at the moment. I, I, I'm only okay. To be honest, I'm an only like 15% into it. It it's a very, very long book, like fantasy books sometimes. Huh. But if it's just not engaging at all, I mean the writing is okay, but it it's in the past episode we talked about writing and the point of view and with just the way we ride and that is so much more engaging and this is not really. And the point of view is so it's a bit like, yeah, I dunno. It's a bit boring, but that's off topic now, but I just want to, yeah, it was just your tip there made me think about how even sometimes if you pick up some very, very popular books and you start reading them, they might not really do much for you.

Autumn (22m 49s):
So yeah. But again, that only just support the fact that you should read a lot because your, you know, keep reading different books and so on. Yeah. And that's why I said, yeah, don't just read. Don't just pull apart any books or whatever it is. Your favorite book, you read that one, figure it out. Why it's your favorite? That's the worst.

Jesper (23m 9s):
Yeah. That's a good advice. All right. Okay. Then the next one here is it might be the one that I feel is the most important one, to be honest, maybe because this is very simple, in some extent, in some sense, but also very complicated, but it is really figuring out what you want to say.

Autumn (23m 31s):
Oh, I like that because anyone can string sentences together, but you need to have a story to tell. Yes. And outlining really helps here. To be honest, I was going to ask you you're into that. You should learn the plot and we'll all right.

Jesper (23m 48s):
Yeah. We, of course, do we have a full step-by-step hook on how to plot a novel, but if you're interested, you, you can search for plot development on Amazon and you'll find it, but we should really not why it was mentioning it. The reason I'm mentioning it is that going through the motions of trying to understand your story before you just start writing, even if you, even if you're not applaud and you don't wanna do like a full of plot or whatever, but trying to get your mind around, what is this story really all about? And what is it that I really want to say that will help your writing tremendously and make this story so, so much better then when you just sort of doing a brain dump on the page.

Jesper (24m 29s):
Right?

Autumn (24m 29s):
I agree. Yeah. I mean, whether you outline or like I said, I, I, we have YouTube videos on just a 15 minute, half an hour outline, which can do so much for guiding you in a direction, even if you're a pantser. But yeah, I think knowing the purpose of the story and maybe the theme of the story, all of those things can really want, it will help you right. Faster. 'cause you'll know you're going and the right direction. Your not just wondering leaf through the maze lost, but it'll really help you make a better story. And you'll write better. Because I mean, the point is, is to write a story and to tell tales, there's times that I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I want to go into that, but I don't have to be a short story of somewhere else.

Autumn (25m 12s):
It, it doesn't really involve what is important for the story. And this plot are the subplot. It, it doesn't really need to be in there. So that'll help you with your writing. And so that you're not having readers, I work coaching with other authors and you don't want your, we are going, why didn't you mention this name? Why did you bring this up? And then you never mentioned it again. Oh my gosh. I hate it. When I read that as a reader, that your, like, why didn't you tell me this? If you never do anything with it, and that's a good point about the YouTube videos. So then we have like, I dunno, I will guess like modern 150 video is probably on the Am Writing as a YouTube channel.

Jesper (25m 48s):
So if you need to find some inspiration about how to do a plot four series or a shorter plot overview or what, probably whatever you can think of almost go to the Am, Writing Fantasy as a YouTube channel, because they're actually YouTube videos on their that is not on this podcast feed. Right. It's all right. That's the first one is before we switched to you.

Autumn (26m 10s):
Yeah. Yeah. Before we switched to podcasting, we did YouTube videos. So there's probably like a hundred videos, I would guess that it's not on the podcast feet. So yeah. Go, go and explore a bit then if you, if you need some help, so you'll definitely find videos. That'll help you. You taught me what B rolls, where we had those or some really good videos.

Jesper (26m 29s):
So I think we still get comments on them. So I know people are still watching though. So yeah. Only wanting is to some of those videos are very old. So the first video is on the channel. They with those, well, not professionally reduced in this political like that, the advice are good, but the production value is not right. I mean, we all improve in time.

Autumn (26m 50s):
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. You ready for my second tip?

Jesper (26m 56s):
Yup. Go ahead.

Autumn (26m 57s):
All right. Mine is learn the craft, very vivid characters. And I was going to say realistic, but I don't actually mean realistic because I hate to say it real people, real people could be a little boring. It. So you want someone who is personality, who a friend once said, this, describe this other person to me that they were like a motorboat when everyone else was at the canoe. And like their weight just kinda topples you right over. That's kind of what you want your characters to be that whole idea of larger than life. But you also want them to feel like they really could exist. So there are three dimensional. They have likes and dislikes.

Autumn (27m 39s):
Those are really important to you by creating a character that is just beautiful overpowers, maybe, and so many ways, but it also feels like someone, you really want them to be your friend or you desperately do not want them to be your enemy. Create those types of characters and people are gonna be like, whoa. Wow. That is amazing. Right?

Jesper (28m 1s):
No agree. And characters with the characters. Those are why people come back to the stories. It, it is not the old wall plopped on the day. What really engaged as the reader is to character. So fully agreed at, at this insane, the important it, it might not be directly.

Autumn (28m 20s):
Well. Yeah, just some, it depends on how we interpret improving the writing. It, it, it's not specific writing.

Jesper (28m 29s):
So, but, but again, my, my, my point about figuring out what you want to say, it's not Pacific Pacific to the sentences either.

Autumn (28m 36s):
Right. So, but it's yeah. It's about storytelling, I guess. Yes. How do we know how to tell your story better? How's that? Yeah. Yeah, indeed. So when you have two ones that I'm like short and quick, one of them we already touched upon too. I'll just get those out of the way. And then I'll move on to the T two to another one. Okay. So the first one you talked upon that don't use the complicated words. So I had that one as well. And then another variation of that is use different metaphors. That what you used, you used to see, you know, find new ways of saying something that, that will improve the writing quite a lot as well. And so that, that was to small, easy ones, but that's a good one.

Jesper (29m 17s):
We get out the way. And then the next one I have here is any words that can be stripped out without losing the meaning. Cut it out every time as the more, once you remove the bed and the story we'll get.

Autumn (29m 34s):
All right. I agree. I was just probably a point where you have removed too many, but occasionally losing meaning that's true. It without losing, meaning it, occasionally I do it because I'm, you know, the, the editor hat usually on, in the two of us and I'm often taking it out words, but then all of a sometimes stop and be like, I needed that, right. I'll be like this, I'm adding something massively something, or being a massively booming. You, you know, something I'm adding in there because those words are fun. It's good to remember to put in some of those fun adverbs, the occasionally, but it is. And there's times where I'm editing and I'm like, okay, there's four words that I can turn into one.

Autumn (30m 18s):
And I will always switch to something that is, or miss Ernest Hemingway must be, you know, I'm channeling him at times. I just really likes, just shortened up the sentences to drop all of the does. They call it sticky sentences, which is what I learned through pro writing aid. I didn't know they had a term, but when you have something that has all those filler words, like in the, a, all of those little ones that we really don't have, meaning there, the, just the little bit's there, that kinda connect everything with two, the more of this stuff, you can remove the sh punchier in more concrete, your sentences, our, and the more you get out of them, you don't get lost. And all of those little words that your, like, why are we, are we going with the sentence?

Autumn (31m 1s):
You don't want it to have those sticky ones. They make people just stop and go, wait, I have to start over again. I don't know what you were saying.

Jesper (31m 9s):
No, I agree. Absolutely.

Autumn (31m 11s):
All right. Yeah. So I actually went to the ones on my list was learned, apply it, but I think we kinda, we kinda covered that one is important, but I would say for fantasy again, this is not a sentence structure, one, which is funny. I'm employed, I'm the editor and I'm avoiding all the sentence structure ones, but I would say, learn to world, build something unique and then learn how to share it with readers without info dumping or confusing the crap out of them. What are the stories I just recently read, which is interesting, because I actually meant to mention this one with the characters as well. But again, I won't mention any names, but it was an impressive world and this was not Brandon Sanderson.

Autumn (31m 55s):
I would say that it, it was someone else and very impressive world. And really in depth, all this history, I was so freaking confused, you know, horrible job explaining any of how it related to the world and how old, who these people and God's in all of these things. We're I literally had two, I finish the book and I kinda had an idea of it. And then I read through the glossary and then I'm like, oh, they'll still don't get it. It's sad. I had to literally just suspend my own questioning or I would never have gotten past probably the third chapter, because I'm like, this doesn't make sense where you please explain what the frig you were talking about.

Autumn (32m 40s):
He just horrible. And he was the same way with some character. Is he literally didn't describe the character, a sidekick. It's all three quarters of the worst of the novel. Up until that point. I knew one thing about the sidekick. Okay. Well, how it looked at three quarters of the ways through the novel, I've finally got a description. It was like, thank you read. I've got an hour to revise everything, but I just thought of till now, but he also did the same thing with it. It was one of the first times I've read a book where I can, honestly, I see a lot of authors saying, you know, I don't know how to right. Men, if they're all women or a woman saying, I don't know how to write.

Autumn (33m 22s):
So men take it. I don't know how to right women. So all of the few times I can say you have two types of women in your novel assassin coldhearted or mousy and an insane. And was it, so then I say it, right? Vivid characters, right? Vivid characters of every genre at color race, no one should be one of two characteristics because I finished it going. I don't care who is buying this book. They're not women. I read it. And I'm kind of like this almost insulting I'm either. So these are my two types of characters. So learn the moral build and learn how to describe things.

Autumn (34m 3s):
It makes sure you described things appropriately, but tone info dump it. So that's, that's, that's circled back to what my point was is you should create something amazing in this world that I just read was really, truly unique and amazing. I think for what the hits I caught out of it. I, I assume it, it seemed it under the hood from what I was gathering. I just don't know how it works.

Jesper (34m 30s):
It reminds me of the advice to give when you are to Reed, the Silmarillion, have you ever read that one?

Autumn (34m 37s):
No, I haven't. I will. I swear.

Jesper (34m 40s):
Yeah, I have it all my Kindle. And I'm going to read it for the second time, but it, it is, it's a very nerdy book to read, of course, because it's not really a story as such. It's more like a wool compendium, but their advice when reading the Silmarillion. So I can give this to you now. That is, since you haven't read it, but the device is just read it. You know, you're going to get like 250 names of this, on this father to that blah, and do not try to understand who is, who just read and ignore it because you're gonna get so lost and you have no idea, five pay it later. What the heck is actually who, here we go, it's impossible to follow full glossary's and all that, but I just forget it.

Jesper (35m 22s):
I just read it for, you know, the history of the world and just ignore.

Autumn (35m 27s):
All right. Okay. All right. It that's the only way to read the Silmarillion the, without going insane, right.

Jesper (35m 34s):
That's right.

Autumn (35m 35s):
I will keep that in mind this speaking of that, and don't know if you're, so I just saw and share it on Patriot and Patriot how to create your own magic book. I'm just going to stick with my own philosophy of how to do that. And I'll ignore the similarity. I can't even pronounce it today. And I told you what my brain is slowly, this proteins, all we need to speed it up. All right. But yeah, so I'm going to, I will save that for later in cooler weather.

Jesper (36m 5s):
Okay. I found a piece of advice from George Orwell. Now this is not something new to most of us, I think, but at the same time, it's, it's a good reminder. That is not to use passive voice when you can use active voice.

Autumn (36m 26s):
That's a good reminder.

Jesper (36m 28s):
Yeah. So the example all with all wheel uses was the Mann was spitting by the dock that is very passive at this very passive and not very engaging. And it is better to say the DOK with the man is active and it's much more engaging. And again, we talked about the point of view we early on, and if you right, and the point of view, you usually do not have the passive voice problem as much at least.

Autumn (36m 52s):
Yes. And I, I, it's funny. I have seen that with editing a lot of books. I do it too, that I often see something in passive voice that you don't need to have to switch to the now. And they have, like, she was sitting down. You can just change that to, as she sat down. Yeah. I've noticed that if you see a was, and then a verb adding an ending and an I a T G I can guarantee you that is the verb. That should be where the was was, or was it is most, what is it just became a talk to her Susan episode. And I I've just seen it so many times. I maybe, because I'm like editing like crazy since like may or April or something, but I just I've seen that so often.

Autumn (37m 38s):
And so many different authors that I'm like, this is really, it could just be, I don't see any one else having this roll, but if you have a was, and some of the verb finding and ending an ING, it is just getting rid of the, was it turned the verb into the act of choice. That's all you need is perfect. It'll be like, you're writing that much stronger because you'll be an active voice and it will not be this kind of passive. Oh, is that she was sitting down? No, she sat, she just sat down. So it's fine. Yeah, no, and dude.

Jesper (38m 8s):
Yeah. And it was funny. My next one was M to right. Informative and punchy dialogue. So I think we covered that. All right.

Autumn (38m 16s):
Yeah, I did. Yeah. I like punchy dialogue. My editor sometimes does it like my punchy dialogue, but I like my punchy dial. OK. But so my, as one is actually my last one on my list is to add humor to your writing. So yeah, a lot of is a tough one for a of people. I mean, a lot of authors use romance or friendship as a good subplot as a way of binding characters is getting an emotional event investment from the reader. But there's that old saying that if you can laugh together, you can stay together. When they talk about marriages, it's also true with your characters and with your readers.

Autumn (38m 57s):
If you can make them laugh out loud, they will kind of love your book just the little bit more of than even a romance scene. So keep that in mind. I liked snarkey characters and I loved sarcasm. So I, you know, you're gonna definitely find that on my books. But then at times it's, I've had a few Maverick meanie at kind of characters. And even in the book, I just read that I couldn't understand the world. And I didn't really like some of the female characters because there were like one of two types, except for the main, the hero's wife who ended up in prison for three quarters of the novel doing absolutely nothing. But anyway, there were parts the parts of the book.

Autumn (39m 38s):
I absolutely adored because some of the banter between characters and this kind of devil may care, sarcastic attitude. I'm like, dude, I like you. So that overcomes quite a lot of sins.

Jesper (39m 53s):
No, I agree. I agree. Fully a M adding human makes a huge difference, but I personally find it very, very difficult also to come up with something that feels like smart enough, if you know what I mean, my name of humor is it's difficult. I think so. And so I do think it's funny cause I know when the best scenes I come up with our, one of those, one's like, you know, your in the middle of the cooking dinner or something, you're like, oh, this was the perfect dialogue. And you have to basically burn everything is shut everything off and do you run it right? It down. There's something about humor where I think it just is something that comes, you can create it at another thing.

Autumn (40m 34s):
It comes from inspiration. But when it comes, you're like, oh, this is the perfect. So I do think, but it, if you could develop that, learn it. I don't know. Do it learn the improv? That would be a good class to learn, to do some fun humor and you just come up with some stuff. Yeah. But I think it will really, it would add a lot to a lot of stories that I read and they seem good, but man, if you can make me laugh and especially if you start T my goal and every, every interaction with people is to make them snort the hot or very cold liquid. That is perfect. Oh yeah.

Jesper (41m 14s):
That's good advice. I have two more and then I think that's it they're short. So the first one is just very simple, but make sure to hook the reader.

Autumn (41m 24s):
Oh yes. That's simple, but very effective. It is. And I think M not to make you take longer, but we say hook and people understand concept, but I think sometimes they don't realize what that actually means and concrete advice. And its, it can be anything that you just want to make them read the next sentence, whether its curiosity, whether it's and emotional outcome, you just wanna make some, keep reading and all hooking. It is it's, there's a lot of different ways of doing it from emotions to curiosity to, I don't know.

Jesper (41m 58s):
So shadowing excitement. Yeah. That's all you do. It's finding that reason that the, you hit the paragraph or the period and you go, no, I got to know what comes next. Yeah. I mean, especially with the first chapter,

Autumn (42m 11s):
Of course that's important

Jesper (42m 15s):
And the next one is also a very short, but I just sort of general good advice. Just not really about the writing itself, but it's more taking a break from it and you know, walk away from your writing, leave it alone for a bit and then come back and have a look at it with a fresh pair of eyes. That's usually going to help a lot to improve the text. I think so too, especially if you're editing or you're writing and you do hit that wall, especially to me editing, if you, if the words are starting to run together and you were just kind of fed up or you're, if you find yourself trying to finish on an artificial deadline, that you were completely a hundred percent in control of walk away from it don't force yourself.

Autumn (43m 0s):
I admit, I just kind of took a weekend break. I meant to like edit a zillion chapters and instead I finished reading a book and then I did a really good drawing. Sorry, Jesper. I didn't get my editing done, but I've felt so much better when I opened it up on Monday, I was like, oh, you know, boom, boom, boom. Just got stuff done. It floats so nicely. So yeah. Everyone needs a break every once in a while, once and awhile for sure of it. Yeah. And I think sort of maybe to round things off, I think it's worth saying that the more you're right, the better you'll get at it and why I'm saying that it is because some, some people think that you were like natural born as a good writer, but that's not the case.

Jesper (43m 49s):
You know, practice is the only thing that'll make you better. Yeah. And of course it is challenging, especially because writing is very objective. Then that only makes it even more challenging, but you get better as you go along and it also gets easier as you go along.

Autumn (44m 5s):
So it looked at me. I sometimes we could do things in reverse, but in general it gets easier, but you have to. So I live in reverse sometimes too, but I agree. I mean, when I look back at my debut novel versus what I'm writing, now you get a better, you get better. Your next book. There's a certain point where you have done the best you can for your skill level right now. Just go to your next story. It's okay. And just keep writing.

Jesper (44m 40s):
So amen. So next Monday we are doing something slightly different because we have collected a bunch of questions from our listeners and we are going to answer as many as we

Narrator (44m 54s):
Can. If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/AmwritingFantasy For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 132 – Top 10 WORST People to Ever Teach Magic

Some people don't make great teachers... so imagine what would happen if they were teaching magic!

Join us as we try to out-do one another with the worst person we can imagine having as instructor for magic. Expect to laugh, and to be suddenly grateful that any bad classes didn't include having to learn hexes...

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast and today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (29s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (32s):
and I'm Autumn

Jesper (34s):
This episode 132 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And I'm looking forward to this one because You going to do one of our competitive top 10 list today. And a perhaps you want to say what the topic of today's lists are and what we are trying to beat each other at all of them. Oh, so today is topic. I've noticed that I think you even came up with the idea of this competitive list. I think this was just, this might be unhealthy for you. You want to compete so much today's topic. So we are going to talk about the 10 worst people to teach magic.

Jesper (1m 14s):
And this is definitely going to be fun. I was having giggle fits, trying to come up with M characters. I would never want teaching me magic.

Autumn (1m 24s):
So this will be interesting. Just see who comes up with the worst. Like yeah. That's, that's it. We have to include body. And then she was like, well, it's more like the combined five worst ones. Right? So it's more like who made the best or the worst list, the best worst lists. That's a, not the best, worst at it. Yes. I'm not confusing it all.

Jesper (1m 52s):
No, not at all.

Autumn (1m 53s):
And that's a bit, I had tons of time to work on this because it rained all weekend here. So I had some good thinking time. How about you? We were probably on a refereeing again.

Jesper (2m 10s):
Yeah. And indeed. Yeah. So I was just coming up with my list is wanting, so I have not thought about it as much as you have a apparently. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. I I'm confident in my list.

Autumn (2m 24s):
Of course. Well, you usually AR, but we usually give you a reason for your money. You, so we'll see. How are you saying I'm too confident possibly. You need to be a little more humble and admit that I have some pretty good lists.

Jesper (2m 42s):
Yeah, well, yeah. I do admit that. Do you have a top-notch like this, but mine are just like a, a bit above, so we will see, I don't think that all the listeners agree with you.

Autumn (2m 55s):
Thank you, Dominic.

Jesper (2m 56s):
Oh, no, we don't bring that up again.

Autumn (2m 60s):
So how are things over in Denmark?

Jesper (3m 3s):
A it's as good as good as a you and I, we actually interviewed on a field as a storyteller, a podcast yesterday a, which was quite fun by the way. I'm but I'm mentioning that because during that product cost, I set how I finished watching American gods on Amazon prime and a I've mentioned how much I love this show on a few of our past episodes here. So, and I also mentioned that I feared that this show was canceled by the end of season three soda, there was no satisfying ending. And that was exactly what I found out. It happened because I finished up watching the American gods over the last week.

Jesper (3m 44s):
So that's really annoying a, I still think it's a great show and I still would recommend people watching it. But then yesterday, or because I was preparing for this podcast episode, I did actually did a bit of digging and a bit of research. And it seems like that American gods might get a proper ending made either as a minister series of perhaps a movie. So, oh, but I don't know if that's just rumors or true, but that's what I could sort of find, but I really hope that that'll happen because I don't know why do the network's do that? I mean, I hate when they create a series and then just suddenly decide just to stop it in the middle of things.

Jesper (4m 26s):
I mean, couldn't, they at least let the writer's room note at, we are going to end up at the end of this season. So we come up with some sort of it. I don't, I don't get it. Why is that? They're so difficult. I agree. I think it would be nice to not have it open-ended contract and be like, this was going to be a four seasons. And you know, if you do well, we'll come up with like another one or two. But I mean, I've definitely heard Netflix prefers shows is that only like two season. So that's why I thought it made it a three is a pretty good, but I mean that it's like you to look at supernatural if it was 16, 17 season's I mean, I, and I watched them all at the mall, but then we see others that are a perfectly good shows on what you can at least let them, let the people wrap it up.

Autumn (5m 8s):
And that happened with Lucifer, which I saw the final episodes of that just came out and I want to watch it, but Adam's is not back yet. And we've watched the whole thing together. So I'm waiting till he was returned so we can finish out the series, but that was nearly there nearly stopped it. And they did give the writer's a chance to write the one last series. Thank goodness, because I hate stories that are left hanging. Yeah, man, I just find it weird because I mean, surely I mean, no problem that a network decides to locate, we don't think that there is no enough views on the series and therefore we wanna end it. No problem. I fully get that.

Jesper (5m 48s):
That's fine. But what, I don't understand this, that they would know that ahead of time is not something that they all of a sudden realize that there is no sails this stuff, right? They will. No. So why can't you just tell the writer's room? Okay. We're going to do six S episodes more and then you need to wrap it up by the end of that, because there's probably not going to be anything else. You don't know how, how can that B oh, you know, it planning is okay. So maybe then all the producers are a pants or is, and then just kinda like a wake up one morning and going, no we're done. And then just keep going. We cut the strings, right. They're yeah. But, but, but the thing is it still, it's still a product that they are selling to the a consumer's here, right?

Jesper (6m 32s):
I mean, as a user of Netflix or Amazon prime or whatever, a, if I constantly get series on a streaming service that is ended abruptly with no prep, I mean, I'm probably start going to dislike. It's a streaming service. 'cause every time I watch this show on it, it doesn't end properly. Whereas if, if they plan for it and always close to a series, well a or as well as they can, at least then they should also be getting more happy customers and thereby more people watching a streaming service. So I, it feels like this shooting themselves in the foot. I don't quite understand why. Yeah. I agree. And then you have some of the writer's, you know, something is popular and enough fans asked for it, then other ate, you know, a star as someone else might pick it up.

Jesper (7m 20s):
And I've seen that happen where like the first three series are in Netflix and the next six are in stars or HBO max. And it's just like, okay. It just, it just gets confusing. But I don't know. I guess the world makes even less sense. Then we realized, yeah. And you have a show like a, well, it's old now, but as you all like Firefly, which it's just like really, really liked that it was so good. And the was so much demand in the fan community that they wanted more of it, but nobody made it known. So they did come up with that movie. And honestly, I, I thought the movie, it was horrible and I did a huge disservice to the actual series.

Jesper (8m 4s):
So that's the other problem. Yeah. So anyway, that was sort of my week.

Autumn (8m 11s):
What about you all as well, as you know, I mean, I'm currently so alone as my husband's off a whitewater raft, guiding and learning to that kind of stuff. So I get to hear every night about his M events of falling into hydraulics and holes and having the raft go over is just absolutely it stuff I would of totally loved in my twenties, but I have to admit, there's a part of me looking at him now, going, you're giving up at like five year and a bus to go rafting, buy five 30, your off the bus. It at like five 30, you have less than an hour to eat something. Before you go back for some evening classes on a raft guiding, like can say you can't up with you.

Autumn (8m 57s):
So usually he and I was like, we telegram each other and were telegram. You, you know, when he was away visiting us as parents or I'm away, we were like telling screaming at each other, like every hour and sending each other a stickers and things. And I hear from him for like about 15 minutes now, I was like, this was a really weird to not even hear from him more than that. So that's definitely been an adaption. And plus it rained, like I mentioned all weekend and I'm in a tiny cabin in the woods and its pouring down bucket's so I can't even go for a walk and I've all alone out here. And I'm like, OK, I'm a little bit of cabin fever. Like he do leave. So I do go there and walk at least yesterday, I'm thinking of some of the dog and they keep me entertained.

Autumn (9m 40s):
But yet there's definitely a time. And you're like, I'm not used to being this alone. There was a time I used to be this alone, but this was a really a loan. Yeah. I can see it. And you want some locks on your doors is, well, the worst thing out here is the 300 pound black bear when he was a shy little thing. And then we have a raccoon that is figured out how to open a cooler outside of the little bugger, a eye. But besides that, the scariest thing in the woods or people, and no one else really knows where this cabin is. So I'm not that worried about people, but yeah, people are scary. I started watching a Netflix show on true horror stories. Don't do that.

Autumn (10m 25s):
So people are mean to you just don't wanna do with ghosts. And so then they get a deal with other people. Yeah, that's a recommendation passed on then. Absolutely.

Narrator (10m 40s):
Oh a week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (10m 46s):
So I've started working on something new, what's a autumn and I will make available to all our listeners and the author community. It is still in the very early conceptual stage, but we are planning to put out a few master classes and I don't think it will be ready until the fall a but the idea of is that these will be some meetings so that everybody can join from the safety of their home and there will be a, a recording and all of that good stuff for those who can't join live. And then there should, that's gonna, it's gonna be so that it, by the end of it, we're going to hook up some sort of a mastermind, two, it, but a lot more on that later, once it becomes relevant, I am excited about it.

Autumn (11m 36s):
It, yeah, yeah. Go ahead and say, oh, I just think it was going to be, it would just be such a great opportunity to reaching out with other authors. And I actually am, might've picked up a life coaching course. That'll kind of go hand in hand with helping learning some more new, fresh coaching techniques. So I think this will be really kind of fit well in it. It will definitely.

Jesper (11m 60s):
Yeah. But we'll see you. But I would really also like to put together some sort of a, you know, the first ever Am Writing Fantasy in-person event in 2022, I don't know. Do you think that will be possible with COVID-19 and all of that? As long as what of these new new, new variants are going to rule the world?

Autumn (12m 19s):
There has been a wonderful research coming out of Brazil. That seventy-five percent is the threshold. If you get a vaccinated above 75%, it is pretty much contained the virus. And if he hit 95%, its like, basically you're fine. The everything is fine. And there was like, no COVID death's so I'm really hopeful a 20, 22, because I would love, I love and person conferences and working with students and more than a zoo actually like spending time. So that would be fantastic. Yeah. I would really like to put some in-person event together for next year and I think that would be really nice. I did hear though it as well, that that was some people in, I think it was Norway that they were vaccinated and then they got COVID-19 anyway and they went to the hospital and they actually died.

Jesper (13m 15s):
So I, yeah, the, so I'm not trying to be a downer, but I ju I'm just not so a, a a hundred percent convinced that those vaccines are actually the wonder sort of how it will fix everything in medicine that may be some people think it is.

Autumn (13m 31s):
Yeah. There's always a chance of a mutation. That'll be different and go around that. So that's what makes me nervous. So we'll have to see. Yeah. And the vaccine is not a a a hundred percent either. It doesn't give a a hundred percent protections. So you, you cannot be sure, but ah, but lets say we'll keep on a, an eye on things. However it evolves and a, if it goes well and maybe next year will put some sort of all of these trials.

Jesper (13m 56s):
So she, if there's enough interest four and an event for my next year in-person but let's see, we'll come back from that. Okay. Anything else to mentioned before we go into our lists? Autumn?

Autumn (14m 8s):
Oh, you know what? I had something I thought of and it's a completely out of my head. I'm blaming the pollen. It's a, I think the locus tree is decided to bloom now the sun's out and yeah, my brain has a little, so we do it for next time. It, when I remember it. Okay.

Narrator (14m 28s):
And onto today's topic. So

Jesper (14m 31s):
Let's start out by reminding listeners of the ground rules here. Just in case we have some new listeners joining us today. I didn't know if there was this a rules that is good, but there is a, a, a reminder here. Oh, all right. What are the roles? The idea with the alternating lists is that we try to come up with the best suggestions and by the end we should conclude, ah, we have the best five suggestions. And so that was pretty simple. And straight-forward five, a C I thought that was always just like the best, worst one.

Autumn (15m 9s):
I think you were changing the rules. I mean, I have to go back and watch one of the other lists.

Jesper (15m 14s):
Yeah. You do do that. And then come back and tell me I'm right. Because it's about having the best list. So a of course, if you have the best entry on the list and there is a good chance to lift as a whole as also the best, but if you need to have the best list, right.

Autumn (15m 28s):
I disagree is in my mind, is it always been like that? And it, then it, it is like that because that's how I remember it. I will find proof if I probably can find some time to go find some proof. I think you're and I think it was just like to do that.

Jesper (15m 45s):
Yeah. Probably. It's probably a pretty good bat. Wow. So as you mentioned that at the top of the episode today is list will be to chop 10 WORST People to Ever Teach Magic. We decided that this can be completely made of people, although they don't have to be. So that's up to each of us, whatever you want to include on to this. So I think that's just set us off well enough or then I think so. I, I think I already know you have me wondering what's going on. You're changing the ground rules. I'm not sure I liked this and not at all at all. And just reminding you of what the rules were just, they've always been like that.

Jesper (16m 28s):
You would just agree. Alright. So how are you flipping a coin to C who goes first? Or did you want me to ease us into this? I actually think that last time I got to decide who went first, if I remember correctly.

Autumn (16m 43s):
So you should decide this time. All right. I'm going to have you go first then. Yeah. Last time I, I ask you to go from us as well though. It seems like there is a pattern here maybe as best not to go first, baby. I always like to go second and speeches like glasses. So that way you weren't the first one, you got an out of the way it really quickly. And then you could just get back and enjoy it. So I'll go number two.

Jesper (17m 10s):
Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, so my number five, which is like the least of the bath, what do you do? Something like that. At least a worst of the bad ones. So it sounded very complicated. So a number five and this one I call misses, what did I tell you? A oh, and now this is not meant in a scolding kind of way, right? It is. In fact men meant in a, I don't remember what I just told you.

Jesper (17m 50s):
Wait, so this is a teacher who has absolutely zero short-term memory. So imagine how terrible that would be. You know, like every single lesson you start over, we were like 25 times because she can't remember what you just told you, what was she taught you? And then yeah. Yeah. And then you might try to get clever. And then you think that you're going to invent some sort of system. So, you know, it will keep her on track, but the problem, as you can remember that a system either. So it, it doesn't matter what you're do. She's just laughing all the time, this chart. And like I was at the spells, we were working and they'll spend a half your time doing a whiteboard chart structure of this is where we are.

Jesper (18m 35s):
And this is where we were going. This is what you said, do you, at least he has a good longterm memory. Is she still remembers her smells. But yeah, because we imagine you were going halfway through something and then she thinks she was actually doing a different spell and he'll turn it into like a mushroom Tony and that's that you put it on the board. And then all of a sudden she was stop and say, why is that a bot? They're like, what is this a,

Autumn (19m 1s):
I think I'll be looking for it. Another teacher, she, you don't have to be the only person in the universe who could teach magic for me to put up with that. I'd be getting her lots of just like pretty annoying. But yeah, it's just, it helps memory and I'm sure there's got to be a spell it for that. So she could only remember is, well,

Jesper (19m 23s):
yeah, but yeah, memory is spelled up. Might help. So she can find one a, hopefully she has some book's sitting around that. It might be a better, a better bet is to just go with whatever books she's gotten a house.

Autumn (19m 40s):
Yeah. Okay. All right. So do you want to know my number five?

Jesper (19m 45s):
Yes, please.

Autumn (19m 46s):
All right. So this is my easing into your worst potential teachers is that you actually find a magical dragon who is willing to teach you. So you're going to have a dragon as you're instructor. However, the deal, I know it sounds perfect, right? Just the deal is if you get the spell wrong, he gets to eat you. Why did you take yeah. And considering, I mean, do you have to decide if you trust the dragon enough to like set you up, like a smell that is not going to work?

Jesper (20m 28s):
I don't think that many students will survive that for very long.

Autumn (20m 32s):
I don't know if the dragon care.

Jesper (20m 35s):
No, probably not, but a, I don't think it will. It'll get too sort of a graduate very many people.

Autumn (20m 42s):
Well, if you do, you're going to be an awesome wizard.

Jesper (20m 46s):
Oh yeah, for sure. And you're going to a drag and as your friend afterwards.

Autumn (20m 51s):
Yeah, exactly. So I thought it would be a good start, something massive and very powerful. That gets a little snacky. Occasionally. Yeah. Snuggie on students.

Jesper (21m 5s):
Yeah. I don't know that this isn't your toes.

Autumn (21m 10s):
Imagine not turning it in your homework assignment. Just go.

Jesper (21m 16s):
I think at least what will happen is the students will try really hard not to make mistakes, but a vision you bunk to make a mistake. It you're learning. Right. So you are bound to make a mistake sooner or later. Yeah. That's a good nuts. So that is a pretty horrible teacher, for sure. Yes. Alright. Well at least you, you can appreciate that. Won a little bit. You get to see a dragon. So it's like, Hey, you are not that impressed. I can tell you all, we always love dragon. So you just put a dragon and then everybody will always like that. So I didn't think that I should have how I'm doing.

Jesper (21m 56s):
Good for a number one. All right, lets go for four. Okay. So number for this teacher, a teacher, yeah. Is a heavy, heavy smoker. She's a gambler cheese and C and she probably has the worst quality and teacher can have a gun. You get to what that is. All of them was just like the worst quality of a teacher. Well being always right. I'm not sure. I'm not a, I'm not a, a, well, okay.

Autumn (22m 32s):
I teach writing, but I don't know what trying to think of how all the teachers of my life, who of annoyed me and most of them are the ones that never listened to their students. Yeah. That's not bad is. Yeah. Basically its like she doesn't care one bit about teaching. So that's pretty on top of that. I would do it. OK. Yeah.

Jesper (22m 53s):
She doesn't care it all about teaching it. In fact she disliked her students. I have actually prepared, but this teacher a bad, oh no. You of an audio clip. Oh fantastic. All right. Let's hear this worst teacher. So see if you can a hear who this is. OK. Here it goes.

Character Voice (23m 18s):
So I don't want you to worry class. These tests will have no effect on your grades. They merely determine your future social status and financial success. If any, do you know who that is?

Autumn (23m 33s):
I was at the tip of my tongue, but I cannot say I can't think of the name.

Character Voice (23m 39s):
Do you want to hint that?

Autumn (23m 40s):
I do remember it. Yeah. I want a hit.

Character Voice (23m 44s):
It's a character from the Simpsons. It's a Simpsons.

Autumn (23m 49s):
O is it the, yeah, she is a brunette. I can't even think of her name though. It really can't.

Character Voice (23m 56s):
And I'll try and just see if I can pronounce it correctly. Misses crap up a crop, apple or something like that was a crab apple.

Autumn (24m 6s):
Yeah. I'll yeah, something like that. I can't even pronounce it, but yes I do remember her.

Jesper (24m 16s):
Oh, magic teacher. That would mean that was pretty me. I think it was. So she would be one of the worst teacher's you could have, especially around fireballs a, you know, I think that the school will be on fire rod. It quickly when she was taking like a break and smoking and she doesn't really care what the kids are doing with the spells.

Autumn (24m 35s):
Yeah. That would be bad. So it would be bad. But I have to admit as a student and her class, you could probably get away with pretty close to murders so that it might actually probably it probably yes. See the, is the magic toads, a neutral running around the room and the Al coming and eating someone's frog and it was just chaos.

Jesper (25m 3s):
One of my class I might actually do well. Okay. So you don't think she stepped out of a teacher then?

Autumn (25m 10s):
There is. And I was just a horrible teacher, but I'm just thinking of a classroom chaos as a student would be a blast, but it wouldn't be like, you don't have a fear of getting Eaton.

Jesper (25m 19s):
So it's kind of a nice yeah, but you would, unless you are like at the top of the pyramid, you, you would need to be worried about getting bullied because she don't give a crap care.

Autumn (25m 32s):
You would have to be, you would have to either have you're a little posse that you are teamed up and no one's going to pick on you or B be her meiny and to be like this zap, zap, zap to be done with it is shoot.

Jesper (25m 46s):
All right. But it wasn't bad. Okay. But it wasn't a dry and then okay. I can agree that dragon is a bit more terrifying. Yeah. Alright.

Autumn (25m 59s):
So you're ready from my number four, then this one's pretty simple. A is just, you're going to have a teacher, your teacher today for magic one-to-one is a super intelligent AI that has absolutely no magic abilities, but understands the theory very well. Okay. Good luck.

Jesper (26m 22s):
Is it able to explain how to actually do this building?

Autumn (26m 26s):
Is it understands? The theory can tell you the ingredients, you know, wave your hands, the pronunciation. But if there's something, some other essence that you have to draw, especially like a emotions, are it doesn't understand emotions at all. So if there is some other layer like, like in our spells, like you have to be happy or you're pooling on something internal where you believe in yourself, it doesn't get that. Just try. Yeah. Here's a book. Good luck. And I'll see you.

Jesper (26m 58s):
It would be difficult, but it might not be the worst teacher because I think it can teach people some, some of it, at least I think you, you might not be as you might not be the best spill cost off the word, but I think it can teach you some spills or at least probably you could get something out of it.

Autumn (27m 18s):
And I think if you could figure out whatever that ingredient is that it probably doesn't know since it doesn't have magic, maybe you could actually do it very well. If you could kind of figure out what's missing, but until you hit that point, it would probably be the most frustrating experience of having no, you are trying it wrong. Please attempt to spell number three again, just so we found it in my head against a wall O actually that reminds me a, of what was called a, I think it was just, oh my God, I'm sorry. Now I forgot the name of it. But we watched a friends' a, I think it was a friend's movie.

Jesper (27m 59s):
You, you have the week a where it is also a scifi movie. Its like somebody wakes up in a, like a cryo chamber and they can't get out and there is something wrong and a cryo chamber. So it, so it's running out of air and there is an AI managing it so she can talk to the AI and all that. And it's, it's actually done really well because Dai just follows commands. Right. So she has to think about how can I get out of this and find the right, because the AI knows it at all all the time, but it doesn't think about suggesting anything to her and that's not what he does. Is it just, if you ask it something, it will reply like, yes I can do this or no cannot be done a or something.

Jesper (28m 44s):
So, and is quite interesting. And at the end as well, it doesn't mean I don't even know it kind of where the name of it. I can't go look it up. Yeah, no, but, but at, at any rate she comes up with a solution in Indiana that you could probably have done in within the last two first two seconds if she had just thought of it. And that, that was actually quite neat. That is quite kind of good.

Autumn (29m 5s):
Oh, I like that. So it's a fair you again, you admit having an AI as a teacher could be a very interesting, horrible teacher. You just you'd have to be best for.

Jesper (29m 18s):
Yeah. Well I did that. No, because I, I guess what I'm saying is that it's actually not that bad as if a teacher, so you just have to be able to out-think your teacher, which could be difficult.

Autumn (29m 34s):
Yeah. That is difficult. Yes. All right. Well, we'll see. I'm glad you agreed with me. So we will go to your number three.

Jesper (29m 42s):
You're putting worded in my mouth then. Okay. So I don't know if I took the easy way out here with my number three, but I really think this is going to be a very poor teacher. Well, I, you better come up with a very good poor teacher. You're gonna lose some points on and taking it easy way out. Oh shoot. Okay. So my name number three is the wizard who were once very competent, perhaps one of the most skilled wizards in the whelm. However he has since turned into a complete drunk. So I'm not, I'm just talking about someone who's like fond of a bit of alcohol and may be a glass of wine in the evening and stuff I'm talking about.

Jesper (30m 28s):
Like somebody who's so drunk that he keeps falling on his ass all the time. You mean all the time?

Autumn (30m 37s):
Oh no. So good luck learning any magic from that guy.

Jesper (30m 40s):
Yeah. It would be like slurring his words. You said it. Yeah. You pronounce it. Like what do you correct? That would be, and what he's on about and know that I have to admit. That would be pretty. I just, yeah, I think I would be walking away going. You just know, give me, just give me your spell book and you don't deserve this. It would be horrible.

Autumn (31m 7s):
Yeah. And I've got to, you know, kind of learn anything at all from that guy. No, that, that would be a pretty bad teacher. I could see like your T your parent's like, would they set you up with this? So I was like, is this an internship or something? So we got you to the best mentor and is the famous all day long. And you find out he was like this smelly drunk idiot. He's like, oh my God. And tell your parents no, just Dell. So that'd be kind of, it'd be an interesting story you to write it. But I think I'd get tired if you watch, you didn't watch any of the cursed, which I've talked about things I didn't like about it. But they do have, when the show starts, Merlin is completely drunk himself into having no magic.

Autumn (31m 50s):
Basically actually sort of lost his magic. It's complicated, but he is, Merlin starts out is a completely drunk wizard. And I'm like, oh, that is different. Take it.

Jesper (32m 0s):
Yeah. That is different for sure. Yeah.

Autumn (32m 3s):
So very drunk wizard, but that's not what do you want to have a round? Not as a teacher, but not in general. And I get, especially if I think we talked about this before, like a, a, I think you had come up with a wizard who only can really perform magic. Like we loosened up and it was drunk. But so this is like the opposite. Can you imagine if you're at this teacher incredibly powerful magic, I'm probably drunk so much just hallucinating and still have a magical ability. So it just be just driving through a fireball. You are going to be in the middle, middle of the Tavern and he's gonna be like, oh, this was a dragon. Then shoot a fireball across the room. And there's nothing like a place.

Autumn (32m 47s):
Okay. Yeah. That is nuts. But that would be fantastic. Ways of learning. Magik you learned a run and jump really? Well. It would be in shape.

Jesper (32m 57s):
All right. Yeah. You'll you learn how to avoid magic? Not to use it very much, so.

Autumn (33m 2s):
All right. You want to hear my number three?

Jesper (33m 7s):
Okay. I'm ready. Alright.

Autumn (33m 8s):
So I think a horrible magic teacher would be a Fae any Fae because they always require bribes. They always require some kind of payment. They speak in riddles. They, as we both know, they break electronics. If you just touch it. So don't ever handle it at your cell phone. So there's a temperamental. They're impatient. I mean, you just, they're a bit elitist. You just don't want to learn from a Fae because I mean, I could see it. You'd wake up in the morning and they have grown a hedge maze that you've got a travel through to learn something that they wanna teach you. And you bought a time, you arrive in to the middle, they've heard a groan bored and went to a party.

Autumn (33m 48s):
So she, I just wouldn't want to learn from a face. And that's just a normal thing. I mean, if you think you could have a banshee as a teacher, and if they are a temperamental and angry and she's shrieks, and then you blow your air drums possibly dropped dead from a banshee and we will have those little brownie is like my Bramble. You, you know, we just covered in spine, but it really likes hugs. It's just, you just don't want to deal with Fae. You just don't go there.

Jesper (34m 19s):
No. All right. I can see that a yeah.

Autumn (34m 27s):
Hm. Oh, you're not depressed. You just don't realize, smell like loses interest.

Jesper (34m 36s):
So yeah. Yeah. But do the Fe even know how to cast mat? Do they have magic?

Autumn (34m 40s):
Yes. Most do. I think they do is sell it to fail. I know. Okay. It's more like math nature of man and nature. Magic. I am not as temperamental eye must only be partially Fey, I think. No. No. Okay. All right. So I'm gonna have a sit down and have some soul searching. Am I, what do you say?

Jesper (35m 7s):
20% off. 30% off.

Autumn (35m 10s):
Let's move on. Then I'm feeling, I'm feeling self-conscious now. Okay. All right.

Jesper (35m 19s):
So you want my number two, then you are number two.

Autumn (35m 21s):
Let's move on. I changed my mind and I, my, my number three.

Jesper (35m 28s):
Yes. Okay. My and number two is quite a character. Oh, all right. Now I have a sound clip of this guy in a second. A really, but a, let me first explain why he's such a terrible teacher. Okay. Okay. Well, first this M first traits I'm going to mention doesn't actually have anything to do with teaching a church, but it just shows why he is a really bad person. So number one, he is a horrible racist. Ooh. Number two, he is home. We phobic and three, he was extremely arrogant.

Jesper (36m 13s):
So that was, or not the best at qualities. I think we can agree. Yeah. No, I don't think I want to hangout with this person. Nope. And what makes him at a very poor teacher though, is that he is rude and he was cruel is a vindictive O and he actually enjoys humiliating, humiliating his students O that does not sound okay. Like a very healthy teacher. No. And if that's not bad enough, this will give you a hint as to which character I'm talking about. So how are you ready for us? A short, some clip here, listening.

Jesper (36m 54s):
Okay. At first he might be in St as well. So we might be insane as well, because he has an alter ego in the form of a hand puppet. So maybe now you can S sort of guess who that might be, but okay. I'm going to play the clip, but I do. So just a warning here. This guy is not appropriate for some listeners. Okay. So if you have sensitive as you want. Yeah. If you have sensitive ears and if you want too, then please just skip 30 seconds a head on your podcast app now, and then for the rest of us, a buckle in 'cause a, here we go.

Character Voice (37m 40s):
All right, kids. It is now my job to teach you the theory of evolution. Now, I, for one thing, that evolution is a bunch of bull crap, but I've been told after, teach it anyway, was thought of a by Charles Darwin. It, it goes something like this. In the beginning, we were all fish, okay. Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different. So we got to laugh. So retard, fish, it goes on to make more retard babies. And then one day a retard, baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its mutant fish hands. And it had, but sex with a squirrel or something and made this retard, frogs squirrel.

Character Voice (38m 24s):
And then that has a retard baby, which was monkey fish frog. And then this monkey fish frog had, but sex with that and monkey, and that monkey add a mutant retard, baby. It screwed another. And that made you, so there you go. All right. A part of an offspring, a five monkeys having a butt sex with a fish squirrel, congratulate who does this

Autumn (38m 55s):
Actually totally lost it at first. I thought I knew, but now I'm just completely confusing. It just too shocked, I think is just my brain would into a meltdown, a lockdown mode going just, no. So please, Melissa.

Character Voice (39m 12s):
It's Mr. Garrison from south puck.

Autumn (39m 15s):
Oh, geez. Okay. So that's going way back. I have not watched Southpark for a very long time, but now that you said that it's there on my memory is extremely shitty teaching. You really don't want this lunatic teaching any magic.

Jesper (39m 34s):
No, I also would hate to imagine you would learn any thing other than just a sheer lawsuit, a bill.

Autumn (39m 47s):
So yeah, no, he wouldn't last long at the magical academy. I would hope.

Jesper (39m 55s):
Oh no. Can you imagine him? He has a teacher. If it were magic, that was to be a nightmare. So that's my number two. All right.

Autumn (40m 3s):
Well that's that is legitimately have a pretty horrible teacher. All right. I will. Now my number too is slightly complicated. So you are going to have to stick with me on this one.

Jesper (40m 15s):
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Autumn (40m 16s):
So it's sort of a simple concept, but a, so you're a teacher is actually going to be a wizard that is traveling it through time, in the reverse direction you are to him, it's forward. But to also, it would be a backward. So the last time you meet him, which is the first time he'll meet you is you are gonna be at your most powerful. And he's going to be like, I'm doing what I have to teach you. What I tomorrow, you're going to know Les. So I have to teach you this spell you're doing now tomorrow. Right? So, but the first time you meet him, he's going to have been teaching you a for 20 or 30 years and being like, don't worry, you don't understand it. Now you'll get it. And like five days, it don't worry about it.

Autumn (40m 58s):
So it's just going to be complicated. Or you can make it really complicated that you actually teach him magic until you switch. And then he is teaching you the magic. You taught him later. So it becomes this infinity loop. That's just going to blow your mind.

Jesper (41m 16s):
My brain is on fire.

Autumn (41m 20s):
Glad I could help you out.

Jesper (41m 21s):
How is that? Even gonna work?

Autumn (41m 25s):
Its magic. Why not?

Jesper (41m 28s):
But the first time, the first time did you meet him? He will think that you already know everything. There is no reason to teach you. How so? How do you even get to the end where you actually learned anything? Because you will never teach it to you.

Autumn (41m 40s):
Well, he will have it to you for 20 years. So he'll know to you. It will be the first day. It would be like, oh my God, I don't know who you are. What are you talking about? Magic. And he's going to be like, look, I'm going to be your teacher for the next 30 years. Just get ready. You're going to tell you, you got to figure this out. I'll be back tomorrow. So you're gonna be like twice as a annoyed because just like, oh, I don't understand this. So I think he's gotta be all sappy because it's gonna be the last day he's ever gonna see you. So in to you, it's just the first day. You're all going to see. And it's just going to be really crazy. It'll be fairly fine in the middle. Maybe we not.

Jesper (42m 19s):
So he is, he is aware that he is traveling in the opposite direction in time.

Autumn (42m 24s):
He knows that. Yes, he knows it. So it, you just got to him its forward. But tell us is backward is timeline just goes into reverse compared to the way we see time.

Jesper (42m 35s):
So he's also getting younger.

Autumn (42m 37s):
I don't know. I didn't figure that one out. I guess. No, he'd be aging because he, to him, it says forward time. So guess it's backwards at him. It's forward.

Jesper (42m 48s):
Oh my God, my brain can't even comprehend. How does that work? Is this too complicated?

Autumn (42m 54s):
All of them. I thought it wasn't. I had to days of 12 hours of nothing but rain.

Jesper (43m 3s):
Okay. But you mentioned a cabin fever before a, now I start seeing the symptoms.

Autumn (43m 8s):
Yes. Coming up with teachers who are traveling backwards in time. And especially when I thought of the loop where actually your teaching him magic. When you, when you, when he first meets U and then eventually you switched and he was actually teaching you the magic. You taught him. And it's just this lovely, infinite loop of who actually knew magic first because yeah, go figure that one out.

Jesper (43m 34s):
No, I can't. I still can't figure out how are you going to learn anything, but okay. Well, it, exactly, this was supposed to be worst possible to a person to teach you a magic. Yeah, you, yeah, you mind. But it's like when I was the Terminator movies, that was the same thing all day.

Autumn (43m 57s):
I can get into a rabbit hole of trying to figure out, but how is this even working? So if they destroyed a microchip in moving up a two, how did it move it? Number one ever happened so I could get completely sucked in to it. So you're overthinking it. That's all right. Let's just agree. It is a hole Teeter and we will move on it.

Jesper (44m 19s):
It, it is a bad teacher for sure.

Autumn (44m 22s):
Yes. Okay, great. Excellent. I can agree to that. All right.

Jesper (44m 27s):
Okay, good. So you ready to go on to my top one? So our number one, so yes, I'm ready. And this one is sort of in the same vein as your dragon. It is not a dragon, but it, it, is it the same wane in this sense that this team is also incredibly cool and would probably honestly be a very awesome teacher in some regard, but also incredibly dangerous.

Autumn (45m 4s):
Hmm. Okay. So like a dragon, but not a dragon. Okay. Not a dragon.

Jesper (45m 8s):
No. And I have a recording of his voice here. All right. So I'm going to play in and then see if you can guess who this is. Okay. All right. So far I haven't gotten any of the gasses, so we have to say no. And that's why I like to keep putting a questions for you. You can't get it. So, I mean, okay, here we go.

Character Voice (45m 56s):

Jesper (45m 57s):
That was not his voice. Then that is yours.

Autumn (46m 6s):
It might have been a bit weird. There's this voice it at the dog. Is it like, what is it the, you said is the voice of it and set off my dog. We are going to go with that. He was like, what the heck? I must protect you from this thing and need indeed.

Jesper (46m 20s):
Yeah. So it took a few hints. You feel lost?

Autumn (46m 23s):
I had a few hints. Oh. It's like, I wouldn't normally have thought is a dragon. That was actually the immediately as a small gun like that. It's not a dragon or is it Soren? Is the, okay. So not as a dragon though. All right.

Jesper (46m 35s):
Okay. A hint, number one, he's also known as the necromancer. Is that help? No. What I mean, is it narrows down the potential list?

Autumn (46m 48s):
Okay. And this, but obviously I have a one more week. All right.

Jesper (46m 51s):
Yes. Yes. It has been a movie. That's correct. All right. What's the next 10 is the next time. It is. What do you just heard was the blacks speech of model. So that is like sarin or S M if not, so you can't think as a whole,

Autumn (47m 9s):
but yeah, I knew it was a Lord of the rings or at least.

Jesper (47m 13s):
Okay. Okay. All right. You didn't get that. All right. So which, which one is it from Laura of the rings? How you gonna make me go back and watch the installer? Or is it,

Autumn (47m 20s):
I said it was Saren you didn't say yes. A

Jesper (47m 27s):
ll right. So we, yeah. OK. In a roundabout way, I guess, but a, I will replay the clip. I said what?

Autumn (47m 35s):
I said, I thought it was small. And then I thought, okay, it's not a dragon. It's Saren so I will reply. I got it. And then just say it. Okay.

Jesper (47m 43s):
So maybe I talked over you then. Okay, fine. Okay. Then you're guested, but this guy is definitely can teach you a lot. It will also end in your own doom. Yeah. He will suck out your soul. Yeah. Yeah. Toll can actually set that absolute evil couldn't exist, but he then stated that sovereign came S Neah to a wholly evil we'll ask what's possible.

Autumn (48m 11s):
Wow. Talk and set that. So do you want that guy to teach you not without a lot of magical protection and even then it'd be pretty desperate that it would be a really, yeah. I like my soul too much to want to have Saraj. And it was my, my, my instructor, but talk about learning. Darke magical. Art's you would be like a rockstar this, but that's what I mean. Right. In terms of how he probably could teach you a lot.

Jesper (48m 38s):
And that sense, he was probably an awesome teacher, but yeah. You're gonna get sucked into darkness. Buy doing it. Yeah, probably. Yeah, you do. If you wanted it to be eval, it, it would probably be a good fit. But since he's a mortal, you're never going to take his place and it's just not going to end well at all.

Autumn (49m 2s):
No, not really.

Jesper (49m 2s):
And in that sense, it's it's, I would say maybe it was, is, it is a bit worst than the dragon, because it's a dragon you just get killed. How do you have to shuffle for eternity the way through all of this stuff? Yeah. Yeah. That would be a pretty bad. So that is a very good number one. I will admit it's hard and soft and I was pretty much a Trump card for that was like saying Darth Vader was going to teach you the Force. So you're like, well, is there you go? Yeah. He tells you a kill all this pupils, but you, if you survive, you will be great.

Autumn (49m 36s):
Yeah, exactly. Alright. Well, I don't know what is a pretty good it is. I still have the dragon though. So I think we're pretty even. So you wanna hear my number one?

Jesper (49m 45s):
OK.

Autumn (49m 46s):
All right. Here it, so this is a sort of actually along the lines of one of yours, but it's a sorceress that isn't good at explaining things, but is it a really good at demonstrating? She just loves to demonstrate. So you could imagine her coming in, in and going, okay. Class' today. We are going to learn to turn that attacker into a slime mold volunteers, and someone would always have to be the victim to get turned into whatever warts POCs, but you know, curses, exes that are being demonstrated that day. And I mean, if I was at a class, I would just live in fear of the day. You actually get to the ones that could possibly kill you.

Autumn (50m 27s):
And her were like, I would like to volunteer for the death spell and the reincarnation when right after slate of next semester, we learned, we will keep you a card technically frozen until then would be like, oh, I know you could imagine when your parents permission slip for her.

Jesper (50m 57s):
Oh yeah. And then if there is no volunteers, she will pick somebody at random.

Autumn (51m 1s):
So that's what a good teacher always does. It just goes in the one who is sliding in the back. The closest thing. No, I don't look at me and Lisa, not me, not me, but again, so that it is my number one. I just think she would then be bad, a horrible teacher to learn from it. It would, I would the anxiety of going to a class with that kind of a teacher and with magic, we would just be a teacher. I think I'd crack. Definitely I'd run away.

Jesper (51m 39s):
Yeah, pretty much. So I think just like a, it, it looks like both our lists, most of it will just get you killed basically.

Autumn (51m 47s):
So you had soul sucking for your number one, but yeah, you have pretty much any of this as this either. You're not going to learn magic or you're going to die learning magic.

Jesper (51m 59s):
Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I struggle to see which lists is the worse, to be honest.

Autumn (52m 5s):
And I kind of agree. These are a pro thought is, is a pretty bad top 10 list. I have to do it. I would not want to learn from Sorin, but there is pretty much any of this. Like I said, like this a sorceress you likes to demonstrate. I mean, I could just imagine going to class everyday was a teacher you hated that would potentially turn you into something nasty and hopefully turn you back.

Jesper (52m 27s):
I mean, can you imagine acting out in her class, what she would do to you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Even a, a hundred, like Mr. Garrison, what did you, you, if you didn't listen to what he said.

Autumn (52m 45s):
Yeah. And especially is lack of passion for teaching this subject. Well, would just kind of end in frustration. I think.

Jesper (52m 58s):
Yeah. I don't believe in magic at all, but they tell me I have to teach it to you. Is that so I will so open your books. We're going to then, oh, shoot it. Just get rid of the books. I hit his books. You just keep going. Yeah. And then, oh, well, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So I don't know who won this one.

Autumn (53m 17s):
No, this was actually a pretty good, I think again, we'll have to leave it up to the listeners and they will have to let us know who had the best list since you want it to be the whole list. I still think dragon, but then sarin, they're pretty evil in this time.

Jesper (53m 34s):
A siren and beets a dragon. But then, but yes, he does. He, he can, he could kill a dragon by snapping is finger.

Autumn (53m 44s):
Hmm. I don't know. Maybe.

Jesper (53m 47s):
Yeah, for sure. But the, the V but the problem is the rest of the list there. I'm not quite sure which one is the best. So we just go by your rules. So that is only about the best in the list then I one, but you, you, you said that a, you trusted me in the fact that I was remembering correctly. That is about the entire list. That's what you said it, and therefore I'm not too sure who won, but do you want to contradict that you, that I was wrong and it was not about the entire list and it was only about the best one on it. A, I want to contradict that. I will say we agreed to the ground rules for this one was only about the whole list.

Autumn (54m 29s):
I have to go back and check on the earlier a podcast on the worst list. But so this one, we set it up. That is the whole list. And I don't think we can change it at this point, unfortunately. So, and they're both pretty even lists. I'm not sure who's going to be the winter. We'll have to flip a coin and hope it's not a magic coin. That's been hexed so that the winner gets the worst. I'm not sure.

Jesper (54m 57s):
No. Okay. So next Monday we are going back into writing and we'll, she has some great tips

Narrator (55m 2s):
On how you all right. Well, simple as that. And then looking forward to it. If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/and Writing fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast, going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 131 – Jeff Wheeler on Amazon as a Publisher and Writing Fantasy

Jeff Wheeler is a highly successful fantasy author.

His books have been on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list 5 times and have sold more than 4 million copies. His novels have also been translated into many languages.

Jeff Wheeler joins the Am Writing Fantasy podcast to talk about his road to becoming a full time author, having Amazon as a publisher and his love for fantasy.

 

Jeff can be found here: https://jeff-wheeler.com/ 

 

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am writing Fantasy Podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need in literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than in 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello I'm Jesper and this is episode 130 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, and Autumn is busy editing our novel today, so I brought on an awesome guest instead, and that is Jeff Wheeler. So welcome to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. Jeff,

Jeff (47s):
Thank you so good to be here.

Jesper (50s):
Yeah, I've prepared a, just a bit of information about your Jeff. So I can just go through that and then see if I'm missing something. And then, then you can add to it, but basically if anybody listening should not be aware who Jeff is already, then Jeff is a, an author of multiple fantasy series. He has sold over 4 million books and he has also been on the wall street journal bestseller list five times and a year. Novels have been translated into multiple languages as well. And I was on your website earlier today. Jeff and I counted 33 books. So you're quite prolific.

Jeff (1m 24s):
Hmm. Thank you. So it's my, my dream job was to be writing book, so I love it. I do every day. So

Jesper (1m 33s):
Yeah, that's, that's so wonderful. It, especially if you can, a once a week, once you can make a living from it, then that's, that's really nice. But a, but I think I also read on your website that you started out self publishing and then God, a traditional publishing contract a bit later on. So w is that right?

Jeff (1m 51s):
Ah, it is the, of my publishers, not exactly traditional it's Amazon publishing. So after creating the platforms like KDP and things like that, they created their own publishing companies. And I was one of the first authors. They picked up for their fantasy, a line in 47 north.

Jesper (2m 9s):
All right. All right. Cool. Why did you decide that you wanted it to self publishing in the first place, Jeff?

Jeff (2m 18s):
For me, it, it, I'm sure my story's very similar to too many of your listeners and others that I tried, the traditional routes. I tried like getting an agent. I tried doing those things and I even created my own magazine to get a readership going through that, so that when I started a self publishing novels that they would take off and none of that worked. And, and so I kind of put it aside. And then I, I wrote as another series of novels, my mirror would novels and again, tried the route of getting an agent was turned down over 40 times. And I finally said, well, either I either going to try this by myself, because the other way isn't working.

Jeff (3m 1s):
And so I decided to self publish all three of those books simultaneously. So that way readers wouldn't have to wait a everything in between. So I invested the money in there, put it out there, and it happened to come right around the time that Katie P was launching and things like that. So before, when you could only order a print book, a ha having a digital version made things a lot easier. And then suddenly fans started to come in and as my sales increased, that kind of put me on the radar for Amazon publishing. And they reached out to me and asked to acquire that series. So I didn't even, I didn't even get sent a query letter. They, they, they, they sent me a query letter.

Jesper (3m 41s):
That's a position you want to be in, but that, I guess that's a couple of years down the road that it isn't it a, that Amazon reached out about that, or

Jeff (3m 51s):
That's true. I had, I had been trying, it's a break into the market for over a decade. So I I'm an overnight success story that took over 20 years to happen. But again, that story is not unique to me. I know a lot of other authors that tried that route and many of them, ah, even who've self-published, you then got a, a contract with some of the big publishing company. So it's not a unique story, but I love working with Amazon because at their heart, there are a tech company in having grown up in Silicon valley, having worked for Intel, a myself, a I understand in their DNA, I understand how they work in their, their constant search for innovation and creating new ways of, of looking and breaking into markets.

Jeff (4m 34s):
And I thought that they were absolutely my, the kind of model that I was looking for a publisher that was going to be innovative and try to reinvent how publishing works. And boy, have they done that?

Jesper (4m 47s):
Oh yeah, you could definitely say so, but I guess some people might be curious about what, what is Amazon like as a publisher? How is it to work with them?

Jeff (4m 58s):
For me, it's, it's been a delightful experience. And I, again, I know many other authors that have a publishing contracts with the major publishers. So there was a lot of core differences, but to me, those differences or advantages that Amazon has, like, for example, I have a dashboard, I can see my book sales every single day. And I know we get that through KTP as well, but I think we get it in and Amazon publishing as a, as a little bit more robust in terms of the market demographics and things that we have access to. I, I get my royalty statements every month, so I know what I'm going to be making in advance. I get to see those royalty statements. I get to see a brake, you know, broken down a, through all the different markets in the world that, that do that.

Jeff (5m 40s):
A, I earn, you know, a competitive royalties that you would get it, any of the major publishers as well. So I get paid more frequently and, and just as much in the fact that I don't have an agent also helps cause I don't have to pay an agent fee as well. So that's, that's a bonus, a working with them also really nice because certain publishers have cadences. So you have to be like, I'm very prolific. And most publishers wouldn't be able to keep up with a indie schedule that I have, but Amazon can. So I published three to four books with them every year. And then I still publish indie titles occasionally as well. Cause I want to keep that side a open as well. So I'm kind of a hybrid author, but most of my work comes out through Amazon.

Jeff (6m 23s):
And I can really understand that the decisions that they make are based on data, they're based on a lot of research, they test a lot of things. And so they're able to see what efforts yield to book sales. And so that is amazing. A lot of publishers don't have that visibility to see what they're, what, what effort and what strategy actually increases the number of sales. So all of those things said, I think it's really a wonderful publisher to have

Jesper (6m 52s):
Do it. Do you also have like a dedicated team of, you know, and as a dedicated editor and dedicated, covered of signs or, or are they more like menacing their pool of authors with a pool of resources? If you know what I mean?

Jeff (7m 5s):
They definitely use a pool of resources, independent contractors. So I have a editor, you know, assigned to me at Amazon, but then I have a team of, at a development editor for a copy editor for a proofreader that I work with the same people every time. And I do that by request because they know my body of work and they're able to help me see when I've made mistakes, which is frequently. Right. So that's helpful, but they also, you, you contact people to do cover design. So, I mean, I've worked with several different cover designers. I don't really have ultimate say in that, but I, you know, they often say, Hey, these are the three or two that we're looking at. Do you have a preference between them? So I do get to speak up at the beginning a, but we don't use the, this the same ones.

Jeff (7m 49s):
They, these are a variety of them to work with all of the different authors that they publish.

Jesper (7m 55s):
Right, right. You okay. And if a, some of our listeners, which I'm sure some will be interested in a way, how do people normally get picked up nowadays by Amazon publishing? Is it, it just based on when they see somebody has enough sales, they are reaching out or, or how, how does that work? Normally

Jeff (8m 15s):
Today, the way I was picked up was more how it was done in the past. That was over 10 years ago, it's much more traditional now. So they mostly work through agents who then will submit at all, not only to the big five, but also to Amazon publishing as well. So to get in there really having an agent is almost the only way. I mean, I'm sure there's other ways too, that they reach out to other authors that are established and invite them to come in as well. But a there, there definitely, as they were growing a w they were, they were at the one searching for authors and now authors are coming to them through agents for the most part.

Jesper (8m 51s):
Yeah. It's a wonderful, a first mover advantage. You can get some times

Jeff (8m 56s):
So, absolutely. And I feel very lucky that I was, I happened to be catching the wave when it happened and have had works already in, and I was writing a whole new series. So when they purchased my mirror with a series, they said, well, what else are you writing? And I told him about my next one, my mirror wind series. And they, they grabbed those to, so I'd signed a six books deal just right off the bat, which is kind of unusual that doesn't happen to everybody.

Jesper (9m 20s):
No, I can imagine. Yeah, that's a pretty good. So, but are you then also doing some of your own advertising or is Amazon taking care of all of the Amazon ads for you? And so on

Jeff (9m 31s):
A Amazon covers the advertising and the marketing for sure. And so all the resources that people can pay for today through KDP and things like that, we've been using it within a pub for years, and they even have more things that they can do than our, what we're available. So they can send targeted emails and things to past readers to make them aware of my books coming out. That's not something that's available through KDP. So they definitely have all of their tools plus all the tools that they are now a allowing indie authors too use. And so it, it, it's just neat to see how they've invented this ecosystem to make it possible for writers all over from, from all over the world, a to be able to make careers out of this.

Jeff (10m 13s):
And so it's just, it's, it's amazing. And I have a lot of friends in the, in the space as well and get it here, but what they're doing and what they're spending their money on in terms of marketing that I don't have to do, because Amazon's giving that to me is just part of being one of their authors. Right.

Jesper (10m 29s):
Are you running any sort of advertising besides what Amazon does? So you, are you completely leaving it? Everything to them? I doing like I'm thinking like BookBub ads or Facebook ads. So anything like that, or do you do any of

Jeff (10m 40s):
That? I, I don't, I've, I've tried different ones for my self published title's as well, but I found that just the machine than Amazon is that by the virtue of them selling my books, my indie titles get sucked into that machine. And so it, it makes it available for readers. Anyways, I've tried those different approaches. I know different people have. It's just not something I personally spend my own money on because I already have the benefits of being able to utilize it through Amazon.

Jesper (11m 13s):
Yeah. And I think over the years, I've also come to the realization more and more that a, if you can find a way to, well, some people call it a tickle the algorithm in Amazon. But if you could, if you couldn't find a way to get Amazon to just push you a book that is a million times easier than anything, you can do yourself basically

Jeff (11m 34s):
True. But I don't want to underestimate the importance of having a social media presence, having a newsletter list, being engaged with your fans, because that's something they appreciate. And a little bit of effort like creating a newsletter or responding to a message on Facebook or Twitter, or I'm on Instagram as well, and creates that relationship between the author and the reader much more so than when I was a kid growing up, or you'd have to write a letter and mail it to the publisher. And you would eventually maybe if you get to author who may eventually ride back or you'd might see them that a convention are, you might see in them in a book signing, the relationship is much more dynamic now. And I think that having a social media is, has a great enabler of that because it allows us as authors to be able to connect with those fans.

Jeff (12m 22s):
And the more, a connected they are to you, the more they like you as a person, the more they're going to stay on top of your re re release schedule. And they're going to be wanting to pre-order in and by things coming off so that that's outside the algorithm's, you cannot overstate the importance of word of mouth and how your loyal fans are your most likely source of a future leaders more than an algorithm, I think.

Jesper (12m 47s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. No doubt about that icon. I also saw that you are also running a, a, like a newsletter and you have a mini mail list and I sought out on your website as well. How, how, how effective do you find your email list in terms of, you know, generating sales and so on? I, are you using that whenever you have a new book, you're sending out an email and do you then see that convert to sales or, or do you have more Relias as you said before on Amazon pushing things?

Jeff (13m 12s):
Well, I, I know Amazon con their email list is a lot bigger than mine, so I don't know how much, I don't know how much my newsletter does, but I know that I know, for example, when I send out a newsletter about a pre-order available for a new book that I do, I immediately see a pre preorders going in. So it, it absolutely helps, but I'm not going to a kid myself so that the 800 pound gorilla is not me. And, and in terms of, of, of, of moving the needle. But again, I know my fans like hearing from me, they, they respond back to those e-mails, we, we, I, I respond back to them. I try to be very open and available to my, to my readers and let them know that I'm not, I'm not afraid to talk to them, not afraid to interact with them.

Jesper (13m 57s):
I think that's a good point. We had actually a podcast episode probably by the time this goes out, it's probably like a month, two months ago or something like that. But autumn and I was discussing the effectiveness of social media in today's landscape in that episode. And I, I do think it's a bit of a difficult one because I fully agree with what you're saying in a sense of interacting with readers and people and responding to them if they tweet at you and you're you send it back a, a, a reply on. So I think that is really important, like you were saying as well. A, but the thing that I am wondering about when, what we discussed quite lengthy in that episode was that it really worth one thing is like somebody tweets out at you all are sense of Facebook messages and you apply it to that sort of one thing.

Jesper (14m 43s):
And another thing is being actively engaging and trying to build up some sort of a, let's say using as a marketing tool to try to get sales on so on. Whereas I'm not so sure that that part is very efficient anymore. I I'm really not. So convinced that because social media is also a time suck, right? You can spend so much time and generating new posts or a new content to post there and whatnot. And I'm not really sure that it helps so much when it comes to sale. I think you are you're time is probably better spent writing and releasing a new book, to be

Jeff (15m 16s):
Honest. No, I, I would agree with you. And, and if you've been on social media at all, you've seen, especially brand new authors, you using that too, to market a book in, and people don't pay attention to that, what they pay attention to a friend who's recommending you're book. So yeah, I, I use social media and let my fans know when my books are on sale. That's another awesome thing Amazon does for me. They put my books on sale regularly, even after the initial launch, it could be years later, there's still a marketing. My releases, my fans would want to know that they're on sale for 99 cents or a, a, you know, a, a British pound, right. They want to know that. So I want to make sure that they're aware of it.

Jeff (15m 57s):
And then I find my fans will often forward and boosts that signal to saying, oh, this is on sale. And they share that with their friend. So that's, that's effective much more effective than, than me doing it because I don't, I mean, I, I've never bought, brought in a book because of the author reached out to me. I've, I've, I've, I've, I've bought a book because my friends and my author friends are recommending books to read. So that's, that's the power of it. I think people can definitely try to beat that too much. And what's more important is just being genuine and real in your social media and not just posting about your books, but posting about other things. I, all my Instagram account, I do, I do photos. I D that's a different thing than what I do on my Twitter.

Jeff (16m 39s):
And so it, I just try to use the different social media is depending on the purpose of it, but it's not just for promoting a, a new release.

Jesper (16m 51s):
Hmm... No, I get you a and I was also thinking a, just shifting gears slightly here, because I noticed that as well on your website, that you have a book called your first million words, a where you are describing your journey to publication. And, and as far as I could tell, at least I think that's the only a non-fiction book. If you had, at least this was the only one I found on your website, but why did you decide to write that one? I was a bit curious about that.

Jeff (17m 14s):
It's a, it's a great question. I get asked so often, you know, I get, I get email request from authors that are starting out students in college, high school students. I'm part of teen author bootcamp as a player, I get asked for advice a lot. And so over the years I had written articles T which I put it on my blog, but I kept getting asked, like in, in speaking appearances, tell us your author journey, tell us how you got where you are. And I, my story's kind of a different and unique and a lot of twists and turns. And it that I think, I thought it would be helpful to other who are beginning their own journey. And so, I mean like many I've read Stephen King's on writing.

Jeff (17m 56s):
I've, I've read a lot of different things all on the craft, but over the years, like looking at Intel and then in doing this, you know, dealing with the discouragement of getting rejected so many times, there's a lot of aspects to it that I think weren't being covered. And so I just, I, you know, I've, after having shared in speeches and talks my story so many times, I said, you know what I mean, just going to start writing these things down in a book, it's probably only gonna be like 70 pages. And it ended up being almost, you know, a lot more than that. And I just, I wanted it. I wanted it to inspire. I wanted it to inspire future authors. I wanted them to see the good, the bad and the cringe-worthy right.

Jeff (18m 37s):
There's things that, of the mistakes I've made along the, the, the, the, the road that it's like, look, you know, I didn't get this right on the first try. I, I mean, I, here's what I did. Here's how I plotted my own course when, when nobody was telling me yes, and everyone was telling me know, and I just want it to give it, give some of the hope that if they tried not necessarily what I did, but just see that they're going to have their own journey. And I just felt like sharing that experience. In fact, I got a text from a, a, a high school buddy of mine just last night who finished your first million words, and he's a high school teacher down in LA. And he was like, wow. It's like, I knew you were in high school. I had no idea of these things that you went through.

Jeff (19m 18s):
Thank you for being candid with us on your failures, as well as your successes, because you learn so much that, those things. And that's, that's what I wanted it to do with that book.

Jesper (19m 31s):
Yeah. And I also really appreciate it because you, you, you are very much giving back. And I really like that a lot. Also, when, when I reached out a, regarding this podcast episode, you replied quite quickly that you were very happy to come on for it and for a chat here. So, and so I think it's a wonderful once people get some, some success and they sell a lot of books that they don't sort of forget to give back to everybody else. Who's not at that level yet. So I do it really appreciate it. I think it's a very good thing.

Jeff (19m 58s):
You know, what it feels like when I created, started creating my own magazine deep magic, I would reach out to authors that I admired and, and, and hearing back, just hearing back anything meant so much to me. So I still remember what that was like, and you were a very courteous, yes, we are with your request. So I do this, this, this kind of a thing frequently, so, and I'm happy to do it.

Jesper (20m 18s):
No, that, that's, that's a wonderful, but we also need to talk a bit of a fantasy here. Of course, 'cause a, this is The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. And I saw that you initially inspiration as well was from this Shinara, a Chronicles by Terry Brooks'. So T tell me a bit about that.

Jeff (20m 38s):
Absolutely. I was not an avid reader until probably high school, but for me it began that kind of a desire to become a writer began. I was in middle school and it started with Terry Brooks' book a from his Shannara a universe. And it w you know, for me, I would pick up a book and I would immediately start to try to predict the endings. And most of the time I was right. And so it, it was, it just, it, to me, it, it was hard to find a book that challenged my imagination. And, and again, I, I wasn't reading Tolkien back then. I was just trying a lot of different things. And it was that Terry books, books that really kind of kickstarted to me in, in me the desire to be able to do that.

Jeff (21m 20s):
He happened to come to Silicon valley multiple times for a book signings at the local as some of the local bookstores. So I had the opportunity to meet him. And so he really played a role in, in, in, in, in terms of my creativity of, of having unpredictable plots, having strong characters, having a lot of action. That's a kind of thing that I like to write good versus evil. Those themes and stories have always appealed to me. And so he became somebody that I looked up to well, as an adult, I found that he was doing a writing seminar in north of San Francisco, and I had the opportunity to spend an entire day with him.

Jeff (21m 60s):
And you can just imagine how that affected me the chance to, he's going to read my writing. I'm going to be able to learn from him for a whole day. That was really a turning point moment for me. So yes, it began when I was in middle school, but he's influenced me even until today. In fact, I was so happy when my publisher approached him to do a little blurb for my newest series, the first Sergeant times. And he agreed to read the first book and do a blurb for it. I mean, I was over the moon, as you can imagine that somebody that I looked up too, I'd studied under a, was, I was now supporting it. I've been to a comic con event with him and up onstage with them. So it's been a fantastic thing.

Jeff (22m 41s):
The influence that he's been in my life from the earliest of times, sparking that creativity within me, and then being able to watch his career and see how he's handled it and, and, and to learn from him in person was just amazing.

Jesper (22m 55s):
Yeah. How did it feel getting critique on your work far from him? How did that feel at that point in time?

Jeff (23m 1s):
Well, it was terrible. All right, because we all had to submit a story to him in advance. And I wasn't the first one that he began the critique with. And, and he was very, very candid and very pointed with his critique. You, it, it wasn't like a, I'm just going to try and make you feel good. He was challenging what people were saying. He was showing gaps in logic. He was showing where things weren't working. And I was starting to just sweat, like, oh my goodness, this is going to be horrible. And when he got to mine, he asked some questions, he challenged me, but I was able to answer it. And he didn't rip my, my things apart at all. And I was like, well, that's interesting. And then when we, we had it a little lunch break, we're in this cafe, buy this book at this bookstore.

Jeff (23m 46s):
And I was sitting there and I was watching him get his sandwich. And I was in my mind, I'm a come sit by me, come sit by me. And he did, he came and sat by me. So I was just the two of us. And he told me during that lunch, he was like, Jeff was like, you're the best writer in this class. He was like, I could really see that U you have, you can have a future with us and talk about validation. I, I was like, wow. It was like to hear that from you're, you're a superstar. It meant the world to me. And it, it, it, but it, what that did is that it actually motivated me to throw away all the fantasy books that I had written prior to that. And to say, you know what, I've learned a lot from him. I've learned a lot through my magazine. I'm going to start fresh with something brand new.

Jeff (24m 27s):
And that was my mirror wood series. And that's the one coincidentally, after having written and thrown away a million words, that was the book that a launched my success.

Jesper (24m 40s):
So, yeah, it must've been extremely transformative as far as I can also hear from what you're saying, having a chat with him there, and my God, how lucky that he just sat down at your table.

Jeff (24m 50s):
I know, I know it just was one of those things. Like, it was just meant to be a again, if I had the pleasure of meeting him since then, and it's just been a wonderful thing to, to know him.

Jesper (25m 2s):
So did you fall in love with a fantasy genre from reading those specific books? A, was that sort of the trigger?

Jeff (25m 10s):
Well, the vet, we all did help, but to be honest, the first books that I wrote while I was in high school, we're more thrillers, a more, a political thrillers. And, but I, when I came to realize is how much research you had to do to make something accurate in today's world. It took a raw, less research to make a fantasy world, because you could create the, the landscape, the geography, you weren't constrained by historical things. And so for me, a lot of my inspirations for my fantasy novels have come from periods of history in our own planet. Sometimes medieval Europe, I've written a series on ancient China. I've done lots of different kinds of series that I can kind of dive into.

Jeff (25m 53s):
It kind of take something that interested me from history, and then it kind of repackage it and make it my own. And that's what I really loved about fantasy as it's not that it, the lack of research it's just allowed me to combine different elements that I didn't have to worry about somebody coming back and saying, no, this isn't the way it really works. Like you can't say that to a fantasy author. Cause you know, in my world, apple trees produce in what's in what, twice a year. And no one can tell me I'm wrong because I invented apple trees that way. So

Jesper (26m 26s):
Yeah, no, I fully agree. I sometimes a hear on other podcasts as well when some of those may be a thriller auteurs and authors and so on. Talk about how, you know, Rita's come back to them and say, well, this gun, actually, it doesn't work that way and so on. And I, every time I'm just like, I'm so happy. I don't have that problem. Exactly, exactly. Well, of course we, we do still need to think a bit about the weapon's we use and the Armas, we used a a, unless you sort of create something that nobody has ever heard about. We, we still need to think a bit about that and not make it a unrealistic in that sense, but, we do have an easier life.

Jeff (27m 2s):
It's it's true. And, and to me there's a lot of fun in researching things. I saw some great, a German videos of medieval Knights for my first Argentine series. Like how sturdy the Armour wise, how would they get it? How would they stand up against arrows and swords and things and watching a film footage of Armour taking a beating, or weapons' taking a beating, see, and that to me, and it's not even research, that's just fun. And so I like doing that stuff to make my stories as realistic as possible, but then you got to create your magic system and that's, that's part of the fun too.

Jesper (27m 39s):
That's the best part. Yeah. Yeah. I also was, I can't remember anymore because there's many, many years ago, so I cannot remember if it was on one of the network shows or if it was just YouTube videos of whatever I can't remember anymore, but I was one time where they were this discussing whether or not like medieval Knight, you could resist a shut from like a musket and, and the, the, almost that they created now, the musculature right through them. Ah, but then during this show, they talk to like a, a, a blacksmith who we specialized in creating medieval llamas. Like they were created back then, and then they got him in the show to Smith, such an AMA, and then they shot at it and the bullet did not go

Jeff (28m 27s):
Through it. Yeah. So there's all sorts of things. That was pretty interesting. I found was one of the tickets and I actually used to it in my new series that they would have these trials between nights and they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't even wear armor that just sword against the board. And, and so you imagine getting cut up by a sword? Well, they would use moldy bread to put on the wound and I'm like moldy bread. It's kind of like penicillin, you know, I, my, they figured that stuff out, they figured out that moldy bread helped keep preventive women from getting infected. I'm like, that's cool. I've got to use that if my series, which I did it.

Jesper (29m 1s):
Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. And, and I'm also, I love listening to, I don't know if you ever listen to Dan Carlin, so a hardcore history podcast, a but that is such, such a good podcast. And I remember some point when he was talking about medieval Knight's as well as, and he was saying something like, they were like tanks, you know, it, when you meet a, a medieval Knight on a battlefield, you just can't, you can't do anything. So you saw it, it will not penetrate. If you could just hit him and it hit him and hit him and it doesn't help

Jeff (29m 28s):
You and hope he falls down because other than that you're toast. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesper (29m 35s):
So that was pretty cool. Well-

Jeff (29m 37s):
It, it was exactly what was that. It was that kind of a theme that kinda of medieval night that inspired by new series. Cause I really wanted to write a story about Knights, but from their point of view and the training they'd have to go through the armor, they'd have to wear how hard it was. And some of the books I read from, you know, accounts written from the, you know, 12 hundreds, 11 hundreds, and it just fascinating. You send me those little details that we as authors weave into our stories, that when it is often, when people read my books, they don't realize this is real. This is a scene that actually happened in history. I'm not just making it up.

Jesper (30m 12s):
Do you always go with some, something from real history that inspires you or do you all, so something sometimes just make something completely random up.

Jeff (30m 21s):
Most, most of the books that I've written have come from something that inspired me from history or from Dungeons and dragons, a, a big role playing a fanatic, especially when I was in high school and in college. And so those story elements are, those are my two biggest sources of inspiration. And mostly because history is so unpredictable and D and D is so unpredictable. Like when I would play with my friends, they would come up with things that I did not anticipate or expect, which is a great thing to learn is a writer because it's the unanticipated that really delight's a reader. It, if they've like, just like I had a problem with always predicting what was going to happen next, one of the great things as finding ways to be unpredictable and to make your plot twist such that people don't see it coming, then it just deletes a certain part of our brains when something like that happens.

Jeff (31m 14s):
And that's one of our, and you go to our core competencies as a writer.

Jesper (31m 21s):
Yeah. It it's, it's like a double-edged sword, that stuff. Because a, I also feel like after, after becoming an author and writing books and stories, you know, when I watch like a murder mystery show or whatever, I like it. Not every time of course, but a lot of the times I'm able to foresee who to murder is Willow ahead of time when I'm watching like a TV show on Netflix or something. And it's sort of, I wouldn't say it destroys those shows, but, but it's a different experience watching that kind of thing nowadays, when you a story-telling you yourself compared to when you worked, but I don't know if you have that experience.

Jeff (31m 56s):
I can completely relate too. You Yesper because I I've had that too. Book reading for me has not been as enjoyable in recent years as it was in the past because my author brain can't help, but want to make it better, or I predict what's happening because I see the clues and I piece it together. And so I tend to read more biographies or other things that are outside of my genre, just because I need something to trick my brain, to stop me from trying to predict everything that's happening. And I just find, find more history or biographies gives me that then sitting down with a novel, when I can find an author that's new, like one of my new favorite as Anthony, Ryan in the UK, a when I do find some, somebody who's so good at his craft and can create a world and do things and I can't see what's coming, I can't see where he's doing it.

Jeff (32m 48s):
I just get transported. It brings me back to those days with Terry books again. And unfortunately its more rare than come in now. And it's just part of the process of being an author of your, you, you, you just start figuring stuff out easier.

Jesper (33m 2s):
It, it is. Yes, absolutely. And I also feel like a, one of the things Autumn and I are doing with our books that we really tried and purposely to craft it so that you won't see what is it coming at the end. So we try to with all the books. So we were trying to see if we can sort of make twists always in the end so that you didn't see it because I really feel like personally, at least that's the kind of fantasy books that I like. I like when something happens at the end that I, I couldn't work it out a but at the same time. And maybe that was what you were trying to say a bit there as well, is that if I look across like fantasy books in general, many of them feel to me, at least in not that I've read all of them, of course, but, but the ones I've read a lot of the time, they feel like very, very straight forward.

Jesper (33m 48s):
Like it's just like you go on this quest thing and at the end you fight the dragon or whatever and then yay. You, you won. And then, I mean, not that its not, it can be a good story. Of course it could be incredibly well-written. But I just feel like if we can work in some stuff that may be normally belongs a bit more over in another like thrillers and we can, if we can work that a bit into the fantasy, I personally at least feel that it becomes more interesting.

Jeff (34m 17s):
A and I agree and that's the kind of books that I like to ride, but even within fantasy you can have things that are more action, adventure, Ew, there's a romance fantasy. And those readers expect a certain kind of trope that, that goes with it. So you, you have to understand kind of what your, what your market is, but I'm always looking for that a different angle of how can I like in my book, the Queen's poisoner, I made my protagonist eight years old and that puts all a whole series of constraints. Right? Cause he's not going to pick up a sword in and defeat the bad guy. He's got a defeat him with his head, but an eight year old can't outsmart as an adult, unless there's another adult helping the eight-year-old.

Jeff (35m 1s):
So I like putting together these ideas that kind of create a totally different kind of a story than what people are expecting again. But those with those twists and turns put in there that make you want to keep turning the pages and say, what, how was this kid going to get out of these Kings? This King's clutches, you know, but the cards or so stacked against them. So I like looking for those different angles and not just having the, the stamp using the standard tropes, but often flipping them. No, no, I agree.

Jesper (35m 30s):
And is that a book then written for a mature audience? I mean for adults or is it more like a YA?

Jeff (35m 37s):
It's kind of both by audience range and I, I know this from my, my Amazon re results. I have readers who are in eight years old and I of readers that are over 80 years old. So I I've got, that's a good way. That's a great problem to have. And so it, you can't really classify it as why, because there is a very adult characters and there as well, but I don't, I don't ride with a lot of adult themes. There's no sex or swearing in, in my books, but, but that's just the kind of things that I like to enjoy myself, but yeah, people of all ages can, can get sucked into it and including my own kids and including my own inlaws. So I've got a range on both sides. So my, my father-in-law's begging for my new book, which comes out next week. So like I can't wait till this book comes out.

Jeff (36m 17s):
So it's good to see that, that enthusiasm.

Jesper (36m 21s):
Yeah, absolutely. But do you find a, the more books that you write at it becomes more and more difficult to come up with new, let's say interesting takes on things or, or, or, or does just the fact that you go into a different historical, a like theme, does that automatically bring some new twists and turns so to speak into your books? Or how do you feel about that?

Jeff (36m 45s):
So, well, I kinda of two different processes. So like when I'm writing a book, my focus is on that one. And, and if a new idea comes to me for another series, while I'm working on that book, I'll send myself an e-mail a kind of capture some of the idea and I'll just file it away and I'll just let it kind of incubate in the back of my head. But I don't spend a lot in my conscious time processing that new idea. I want to stay focused on the idea that I have. So that as I'm thinking about the next few chapters, I always kind of plot off a story arc of where is this series going, but I don't plot all the twists and turns in advance. So I spent my time thinking about is I'm maybe I might need a, a N in, in, or a CASEL or a certain place in as I go in.

Jeff (37m 30s):
And as I research that, that would give me a new ideas that I can weave into that story, add some twists to it. But meanwhile, in the background, I've got these other ideas that are cooking and I worried that am I going to run out of ideas? And I can tell you after all these years, my, my, my idea folder and my inbox is getting longer, not shorter. And so a new ideas come to me all the time, often multiple ideas while I'm working on a series. So if I get three new ideas for every series exponentially, that's a problem. Like I'm gonna die before I'm gonna write all of the story ideas that I have. So then I have to really be thoughtful about what am I going to work on next?

Jeff (38m 12s):
What's that next adventure going to be? What do I feel the most passionate about? Cause I've got all of these ideas to choose from what are the ones that are the most exciting to me.

Jesper (38m 21s):
Yeah. And I think that's actually a good point. A it's one that I've also started thinking more and more about in terms of, because my idea for all of those also a very, very long, and it does not get shorter. Like you S but I, I think it's a, it's a good point. The fact that once you start working on a series, you, you will probably, well, some are some for some people take longer, obviously, but your probably locked in four a year, at least a day. Some people might working on it even longer than that. But I think there is a good point in this choice that you're making, which one do we actually want to ride? And what, and, and what do you then choose out of that list?

Jesper (39m 3s):
Write a book. I think, I mean, it does not, I don't think it's easy.

Jeff (39m 7s):
No, no, no. It's not a bit. It, for me, it is the key decision maker is, do I have a fire in the belly four? It am I excited? So, right. So I'm working on a series. That's going to be coming out next year. And before I started working on it, I shared three ideas with my wife. And I just talked to her about all three of them, just independently. Here's the three ideas for three different series that I can do. And she said judging by the, by the look on your face, you're the most excited about this one? And I'm like your right. Like, there is a very practical and pragmatic reasons why I could have worked on the other to, but she could tell the, and excitement enthusiasm was there.

Jeff (39m 51s):
And that's gotta be a key ingredient. Cause I, I have readers that say, Hey, go back to your, you know, an early, early, early series you self-publish before a mirror would, I said, I have zero interest in going back to that series. I have no fire in the belly, four. It, it would be painful for me to try to go back and try to write more in that world because I had originally designed like maybe a 12 book series. And I have since come to learn that most publishers don't like 12 books series because your readership keeps getting smaller and smaller. The further out you go. And so it's not, they're, they're, they're, they're good for like Robert Jordan's and others, but, but most of us can't a command the attention in that long and they'd preferred trilogies, or maybe for maybe I've done five a month and her advice was spot on and that's the one I'm writing right now.

Jeff (40m 40s):
And she was right. I am still excited and passionate about writing this book. And then I'll make the decision as I get near the end of the final book. What am I going to go back to either of those two other ideas or did something else come along that I'm now passionate and excited about it? That's it gotta be a key ingredient for it?

Jesper (40m 60s):
Yeah, absolutely. And maybe a way of had to watch the end. Jeff, I'm thinking if I, if we could like invent a time machine here and a, you could go into a time machine and you can travel back to the earlier version of yourself when you were just starting out on your publishing journey. If you had to, you only have time in the, in the past year for, for saying like one advice to yourself, and then you're going to sit back right here and depressant. So what would be the one thing that you will tell you a past selves as a piece of advice?

Jeff (41m 34s):
You know, I've, I've, I've wondered that at times, you know, it because, you know, if I look at my journey, what would I have wanted to know the most that would have kept me motivated? Because my skills of changed my interests have changed. I've grown as a writer since becoming a full-time author a lot has changed. And you can't really summarize that in a, in a sentence or two, but the advice, if I could like flip out of a, at a time machine in and talk to myself while I was it Intel, or if I was in high school, I would, I would, I would have just told myself it's gonna happen. Like you're gonna get there. You're gonna become a full-time author some day. But I wouldn't tell me how, because would be no way to summarize that the up and down experience and talk about in my memoir it to the point where that, that self could understand what I was talking about.

Jeff (42m 21s):
But, but, but I think it would be motivating to me to know that, you know, that I made it, that I made that happen. And that's the, that's the advice I'd like to give writers today. It's like, like, if you could imagine that you would succeed in anything that you did, what would you dare to do? Like if you knew that there was no chance you could fail, that you would eventually succeed, what would you dare to do? And I, I just knowing that by daring to be an author that I would achieve it someday. And that, if that, if I, if I don't know, if I'd tell myself that I would be more popular than I could have even imagined back then, like I I've exceeded way more than I ever thought I would of never thought I would of deserved.

Jeff (43m 4s):
But if I could just tell myself you're going to make it, that would have a, that would've been very inspiring to me. And I hope it's inspiring to your listeners to, to put in the time it takes to write those books in a lonely room without anybody else there, unless you've got a co-writer it's up to you by yourself to pull it off. Well, but to know that you're going to make it, you'd make it worth it.

Jesper (43m 28s):
You just don't give up. I think that's a, that's a very good a point to the conversation on M, but Jeff also wanted to ask you if, if a, if people want to check out more about you, where, where do they go?

Jeff (43m 44s):
My website is Jeff Wheeler dot com. I have all of my different worlds there. I have a different page from the different worlds that talks about the settings and the magic and the kind of thing. So that way, if people want to explore like, oh, I may be more interested in this one. This one's got a more, a medieval feeling. This ones got it. More of a steam punk feeling. This ones got you. You can kind of look at it that way. I always get asked, like, where do I start? You've got over 30 books. Where do I start? The page that gets viewed the most on my website is one call it the one called a reading order where I suggest if, if I had a pick, this is the order. I would read my books. And cause a lot of my stories are tied together.

Jeff (44m 24s):
There's a little hints from one that leak into another. And so if you want to capture all those nuggets and little Easter eggs, you would, if you read it, it in the order, I suggest you, you probably maximize that the most, but that's, that's what I would suggest.

Jesper (44m 42s):
That's so cool. And I did, I can confirm the, those well page's you have on your website. It's really cool. There's a nice images and everything as well. So it looks really good. And a, of course, a reading about some, a fantasy setting who doesn't want to do that. It's a, it's a wonderful, thank you. So thank you so much for coming on a Geoff. I really appreciate it.

Jeff (45m 8s):
It's my pleasure to be here.

Jesper (45m 9s):
Okay. And next week, Autumn will be back and I'm prerecording this, so I'm not quite sure what we're going to talk about, but the tune-in.

Narrator (45m 20s):
If you like what are you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 130 – What is the Emotional Plot?

There are a LOT of parts involved in writing a story. Even if you are a panster, you should be thinking about the story's plot, characters arcs, how the two inter-link, sub-plots and how they affect the main plot, and then there is the story's emotional plot.

Wait. Emotional plot?

The emotional plot of a story isn't something we talk about much. In fact, there isn't a ton of information out there on it, but it is an important part of plotting as well. 

Tune into episode 130 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast as Autumn and Jesper (well, mostly Autumn) share insights on the emotional plot.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!
Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, this is episode 130 of the am writing fantasy podcast. And in today's episode, we're going to talk about the emotional plot and how to use it. Or perhaps I should say that you Autumn will be talking about...

Autumn (49s):
I guess that's fair. This is one of my ideas because when I, I guess I knew about the emotional plot, but when I started playing with it recently and did a recent post in our Patrion feed, I just got so excited. Like, yes, we need to talk about this. And I somehow strong arms you into it.

Jesper (1m 12s):
No, no, that's, that's good. Then I can take a bit of a backseat and enjoy all the preparation work you of course have done for this episode, Autumn, like you do for every single episode.

Autumn (1m 24s):
Usually. Occasionally.

Jesper (1m 26s):
No, you don't.

Autumn (1m 28s):
I'll be fine. I have every faith. We'll figure it out besides not doing my homework. How, how have you been?

Jesper (1m 42s):
Well, good. I did start writing book two in our series and I really wanted to get a writing sprint done this morning as well, but I failed. I was, I was actually up at five 15 this morning, but yeah, I prioritized exercising thinking that I could get a writing sprint done afterward, but then other tasks sort of got in the way and I hate mornings that just spiral, it feels like it just spirals out of control that way. Yeah. And I always advocate that people should prioritize writing and do it as the first thing, because then you don't get sucked into other things and you see, it happens to me like fingers, but I don't know my excuses that the being a soccer referee as well, it's important that I have a good fitness level.

Jesper (2m 37s):
So that's my shoes. But writing is important too. So it's one of those choices. We'll all have to make at some point, but yeah, I will. I'll I'll get some more chapters to be too hard on yourself because you have started writing it. You've done two chapters. We did all the plotting. You finished the previous book, which I'm still editing. So I think you're fine just because you're like a half a book of me, your foe. Yeah. Well, it's not necessarily that I want to be far ahead of you, but it's more like, I like to be productive and I love when I can see progress. So when nothing happens because I get sucked into a million other things, well, I do make progress on other things, but I want to see the book advancing all the time.

Jesper (3m 25s):
So since that's a bit annoying, oh, and by the way, my apologize in advance, if somebody can hear shouting in the background while we are recording, because my wife is watching the world championship, ice hockey in the other room and she can get quite an Tuesday astic about that.

Autumn (3m 42s):
So if somebody shout to me, that's exciting. That's pretty fun. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? Could we have like a number 10 day? I, since I should've played hooky because I, you know, had to do my homework anyway, but it was one of those days where it's started off cool in the morning and got warm in the afternoon and we just got clouds, but it was like brilliantly, sunny, but not too hot. And it was just if every day was like that, but since it's not, it was definitely one of those. I want to go sit in the hammock and have a cider and just kick up my feet for a little bit.

Autumn (4m 24s):
But I was, I adulting and I came prepared as much as you say, I didn't for today's podcast, so I I'm ready, but it's been good. Hey, and I got my second vaccination over the weekend. I am now. Well, once it's all the humanities kick in, I am now vaccinated fully. So that's, that was exciting. It wasn't horrible. I totally prepared. I was planning. I was going to be horribly sick coming in. My husband was horribly sick with his and I thought, okay, I'm just going to, I'm going to sleep on my bean bag chair. And he came back early from his training and was with me for the weekends. I'm like, I am totally, totally fine. And really, I just, I felt a little slow on my head was just, I've had worse, cold.

Autumn (5m 7s):
I mean, it really wasn't bad, but I wasn't quite myself. So we didn't, we binged on Netflix and took it pretty easy over the weekend. I didn't force myself strong on myself to do much work. That's always woke up Monday, felt like I had started a bunch of caffeine and ready to go. So that's pretty good. Oh, what do you watch? Everything a program called sexify actually. And it was the characterization and the story were fantastic. I think it's a Polish. And so it was, I do tend to like foreign series and it was just outstanding, the characterization and what they were going through.

Autumn (5m 54s):
And there were basically three women, three young college students who decided to develop an app. And the one was, she was head programmer and she was going to do something on sleep. And it was basically told it wasn't sexy. So she came up with something else and we won't go into it on this podcast, but it was a, if it, the name sexify and the stigma around it, you know, here I am skipping the topic, this typic stigma around what they decided to do was so interesting to see all their different roles and how they dealt with parents and try to figure out themselves in the world. And I just, we ended up watching, I think it was seven or nine episodes. And in two days we watched them all admit, which is totally unusual, uses one episode a day for me.

Jesper (6m 38s):
But yes, it was fine. Got some tea, got some chips, some veggie chips and just sat down and watched shows. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And you still need to, if you love the foreign shows, you still need to watch those. I know you need to find them. Right. We have like the bridge, I guess it's the English translation. And then what is it called? What is it called? Killing, I guess it's called, but it's not good in the unit because the English wasn't when you're got a headache, the last thing you want to do is have to read subtitles, but I've looked for that.

Autumn (7m 22s):
And I thought, for sure, we had a workaround because we use a VPN and I figured what I could just put the VPN in Denmark. And then I could go ahead and watch the shows that I can't get in the U S it doesn't work that way. Netflix won't let me log in unless I'm under the U S VPN. So I can't get to your shows. Maybe I come over there and watch with you. Yeah. Yeah. And you can learn it's cold foods. Okay. To work on this.

Autumn (8m 3s):
That's a good try.

Narrator (8m 5s):
A week on the internet with the am writing fantasy podcast.

Jesper (8m 9s):
So I'd like to thank Jen for joining us on patron. So thank you so much. It was so great to see you join us there. And we can't wait to hear more about what you're writing. Absolutely. Your support is of course, what enables us to keep the lights on here at the app, riding fences, you podcast. So we really appreciate that. And Jen has also become eligible for our monthly live Q and a sessions, and they are so fun. I love getting the question. See, that's why I'm always fine for the podcast. We never know what the readers or listeners are going to ask when they join us, our students and our Patrion people, when they join us for the monthly Q and a, you got to just be ready to go with the flow.

Autumn (8m 55s):
But there it to me, especially when people come back in and they give us the progress, updates are just so fantastic to hear how people are doing. So it's good to answer the questions and share and offer support, and then celebrate when things are going well. Absolutely. Yeah, it it's really, it's really nice. I love those sessions as well. So dear listener, if you feel like you're getting something from these podcast episodes, then why not check out the patron page associated to the am writing fantasy podcast, we offer a number of rewards to supporters. And of course there is a link in the show notes, if you want to, or if you're interested in checking that out.

Autumn (9m 37s):
So I don't know, is that it autumn, or do we have anything else that you see that the M writing fantasy Facebook group is almost at 5,000 members? It like exploded last month. I think we jumped a thousand and just a couple of weeks. So that's been exciting, but I was going to tease you and say, well, even if maybe I'm teasing the listeners, but even if you don't enjoy the podcast, if you have questions on your writing, you can join one of the question and answer sessions, answer sessions for like $5 a month. That's a pretty good deal for customized help on your questions on your world, building in your marketing. And I don't know how we came up with that plan, but darn it, that's pretty cheap.

Jesper (10m 23s):
That's the, like the cheapest consultancy support you'll ever get in your life. That's for sure. But yeah, that's true. But I guess the irony is if they don't enjoy listening to the podcast, they will never say that

Narrator (10m 48s):
And on to today's topic.

Jesper (10m 50s):
So we should perhaps mention that the idea for today's episode came from a patron post that you wrote in the . Exactly. We always, I always try to give my best posts away there, and eventually they might find their way onto the podcast then the, maybe even the blog down the road, but this was one that I really enjoyed discussing Patriot. Like I said, once I, once I stumbled on the topic and that the emotional plot is totally separate from character arts and it's totally separate from the actual story plot, the story structure I'm like, it was like, I was finding one of those words that you've always something to define something you did anyway.

Autumn (11m 33s):
And you're like, oh, that's what it's called. I was so excited. So I'm like, yeah, we got, we've got to talk about this one because there is not much out there on the emotional plot, but I think it's, I think I stumbled on like one of the things I could finally say, this is one of my favorite parts of writing. So I'm excited. Yeah. It's cool. And I feel like the topic of the emotional plot, isn't that clear really? And as you say, there's probably not that much about it out there. So perhaps it would be a good place to start if you just sort of explain why no one ever understands what I'm talking about. And you want me to explain?

Autumn (12m 15s):
No, that's fair enough. The emotional, explain your mind, my story organization. And I've terrified you, I think have scarred you forever, that I was trying to, to, to just make any sense and make sense out of it. It's just the goal with go with my mind map. It's chaos, you know, that little meme that's, you know, Hey, what's that thing coming out of your head. And then someone's like, is mine, it's the plot to my next novel? And it looks like this giant worm cloud. Yeah, that's me all for time. But emotional plot, like I said, for it is not your story plot.

Autumn (12m 57s):
It's not the story structure and it's not character arcs, but it kind of overlaps like if those are two spheres, it kind of overlaps with them. It's so if you have a Venn diagram out, it's one of those, the third sphere of it, it is you could define it two ways. And the first way is that it is the character's emotional journey through the story. And that's a good place to start. If you never considered emotional plot before and applying it to the story, you're writing start there, that's one you can do easily. But to me, I think what I like is sort of like the pro level, and that is the readers emotional journey through the story. So it is literally plotting out what you hope.

Autumn (13m 40s):
You know, you never a hundred percent, you can't target another person a hundred percent, but what you really kind of want the reader to be feeling when they reach certain parts of your story. And that's what I think is so much fun. And that's interesting because I feel like normally when we are talking about plot, you automatically thinks about actions and you know, what is happening and stuff like that. And this is sort of more the yeah. Right. But, but you also mentioned the, but you also mentioned the character emotional journey and also the reader emotional journey.

Autumn (14m 25s):
But do, are they not linked like that? They're not two separate things there they be linked, but they can be the reader's emotional journey can be different from the characters, especially if you have several characters, but if you are, if you play with foreshadowing, if you have different characters, like you have the villain's perspective. And so the reader might have information that character doesn't have. So the character might be feeling dread and intention and a whole bunch of other emotions that the character doesn't feel because the character doesn't know. And that's the advanced level of emotional plot that I like when you, when you start layering in those bits of foreshadowing and those little elements, so that you're going to ratchet up the tension on the reader in a way that is actually not part of the story structure per se.

Jesper (15m 14s):
I mean, you might have those elements there to make it all tie together. But what you're really doing is you're putting in those elements to up the emotional impact of the story. And that's, that's the emotional plot. So you mean like for example, that the reader knows what is coming around the corner, but the character doesn't. So is that sort of what you mean? So hence it's, it's stressful or well exciting depending on what word you want to use for the reader, but the character is just sort of trotting along because they don't know what they are going to walk into. In two seconds, the character could be racing to meet her lover or wondering where he is, why he's late in the reader might already know the answer he's been captured or is dead or whatever has happened.

Autumn (16m 5s):
So the reader is going to have a much deeper, mixed feelings going on where the character is not quite there yet doesn't realize what happened. And so that's, like I said, that's more of the advanced level at the very surface. Especially if you write with mostly just one, one point of view character, then the emotional plot can be very similar to what the readers plot would be. And it's much more, much easier. You may have a little bit of foreshadowing that the reader might or might not pick up on and that's going to change the emotional plot. But of course, I think it could also be the other way around, you know, if you have an unreliable narrator, then it could be the other way around that the character actually knows what's going to happen, but the reader is not knowing.

Autumn (16m 58s):
So the reader feels all the emotions when it happens, whereas the character maybe don't because they already knew what or something, I guess, I guess it could go both ways. I guess that's what I'm saying specifically, you know, choosing to have that unreliable narrator, you can do that as a plotting element to help, you know, increase tension, but you can also do it, you know, add that other layer of that emotional plot. You're doing it because you're basically manipulating the character or the reader's emotions and you're doing it purposefully. And I think by saying, Hey, this is a different plotting element. This is a whole different layer and mapping it and keeping an idea of like, what am I'm doing this plot action to do this, to make this happen in the plot.

Autumn (17m 39s):
And I'm doing it also has this reaction emotionally, and that's going to be that and making sure it all lines up. So that way I know I just read a story recently where something big happened and blew up something that a character was waiting for and the character didn't react. And so basically the emotional plot element was completely missing. And by recognizing that there is an emotional plot element, you don't do that. You don't have a big event happen and then completely ignore the characters reaction when something totally changes.

Autumn (18m 20s):
But I'm wondering as well.

Jesper (18m 22s):
So of course, if you know how you want your reader to feel at a certain moment, you know, in the book, that's very powerful tool if you do it deliberately, but I'm also wondering is that like something you would go through as you edit the novel, so you feel like, okay here, probably they need to feel like this and that, and then always, or do you more see it, like something you do while you're plotting your actual chapters or scenes like you added in there? Or, or what if you're pantsing then do what, how do you think?

Autumn (19m 1s):
I would say if you're always, I think we both, I don't think there's any wrong way to do it. If you're a pantser it probably is something that you're going to add in later, unless you're just, especially if you're adding in the reader's reactions, if you're talking about the characters, reactions, if you're a, pantser, who's very attuned with emotions and the emotions of your character, you're going to put that in almost naturally. And then when you edit, you'll just have to make sure it's, you know, it's all there. You're clear on it. If you're looking at how to manipulate the reader, I think it comes out much better if you're a plotter or at least if you're more of a hybrid and you just simply plot out your chapters and if you have all your chapter, like, you know, your hook and your disaster and everything that happens in your chapter, if you also make sure when you do those, you say these are the emotional reactions, or this is the emotional note that this chapter is going to end on.

Autumn (19m 53s):
And it's almost, you know, you can have the emotional reaction as your hook to the next chapter. And the nice thing about the emotional reaction, you talk about hurdles and you talk about laws while the emotions are often, sometimes highest in the laws, because things are happening in the hurdles and you don't really have a chance to react. So those ones where those chapters, where the pace is slower are usually saturated with emotion. So therefore your emotional plot is actually almost counter your regular story plot. And so that makes it gripping. It keeps the pace gripping on some level, no matter what, and you can't ever drop that, you know, you always have them oscillating around each other, which is a really fun way of writing.

Jesper (20m 43s):
Hmm. Yeah. And also I really, I've grown over the years to love the lulls more and more and more because those scenes where there's no fighting going on there, they're sitting around the campfire and they're enjoying their bread and smoking a pipe and, and talking to each other. Right. Yeah. I mean, I, I've really grown to love those scenes because it's, it's usually where you can have the characters reflect on what happened. I mean, of course they will react in the moment when the dragon attacks and whatnot, of course, they will react to that and they will have emotions related to that. But the deeper understanding about the character's personality and their desires and their view of the world and all that stuff really comes to the forefront in those levels.

Jesper (21m 27s):
And, and I really, I have really grown to like those, I previously, I think years back, I always felt that they were, you know, we just need some action, but, but in reality, it's in the slow scenes that, that you can really also build that relationship between the reader and the character. Because once you start understanding what the character is about and how they view the world, how they think, what they decide and what they want, that's also where as the reader, you start building connections with that coach and you start understanding them, even if you don't, you don't have to agree with them and their desires and their wants. But, but if you understand where they're coming from, you will start building a connection to that character.

Autumn (22m 10s):
And I really feel that that's something action scenes can totally agree. Those are, I've always think I've always liked the lulls. And I, like, I think that's where, you know, that's where the, like I said, the emotions happen. That's where a character is fall in love. That's where they might have an argument that they couldn't have when they're helping their best friend. It's like, you know, you're, they're going to be there for their best friend to fight the dragon. But if there's anything like you won't, why did you do that? Why did you bring us here? That's what happened? You know, your risk, my friend's life. Those are the things that come out on the laws. And I like that kind of emotional spewing, I think. And that's why I liked this idea of the emotional plot is that you make sure you include that because you know, thrillers and action, adventure books, the ones that are always like the Hollywood cinemas that are boom, boom, boom, boom, you don't have an emotional plot.

Autumn (23m 1s):
And that's why they feel superficial. And also why some of the characters feel so thrown away, you don't make that connection. You never see the characters reaction. You know, they're always this stoic. I am doing this because I am saving and rescuing my daughter. And you're like, okay, do you ever show that you love her? Other than you save her life, that's going to help me Chris, back to you? No. Well, saving somebody's life is a problem. The coloration, I think I know what you mean because I know, I know what you mean.

Jesper (23m 43s):
And also when, when, for example, when I wrote the first draft of our book one, I tried really to, because something you said just reminded me that oftentimes also in the past, my LOLs would often be discussions between characters. You know, they would be disagreeing about something, maybe even arguing, I don't know, but big, because that would keep the tension high. So I thought like, oh, well that keeps it interesting. Even the laws. And it does. So it there's nothing wrong with it. But in the book, one draft that I just wrote that the one you were editing at the moment, I really try to make sure that some of the laws are not just arguments, but also just have like more deep and thoughtful conversations between characters and how they're growing to like each other and stuff like that.

Autumn (24m 39s):
And focus more on that as well. Other than it's just being somebody arguing all the time. So because otherwise you have like a full novel with either there's somebody fighting or somebody's arguing. And that gets tiring walls are where the humor comes in. And so it's, you know, like I said, you can find in book one and I'm bringing it out a little bit more, but those where you can tease each other where you show characters are, are truly friends or, you know, things like that. Or like I said, like if you had that romance supply, they fall in love during, you know, during those laws. And that's where, like I said, where's your plot action drops your emotions, emotional plot goes up.

Autumn (25m 23s):
And so then they both head into the climax and it's that much more explosive because the reader is tied with a character, is bonded with a character over those emotions. And the character has that the stakes are that much higher, you know, that they're emotionally invested in the outcome and maybe they're afraid and they know how much they're risking, where if you're just running Pell, Mell straight into the climax from one hurdle to the next, to the next to the next it's exciting. But I mean, you can only do an adrenaline rush for so long before you just need to catch your breath. And maybe you really won't remember, you know, remember the characters, remember the story as much.

Autumn (26m 4s):
You'll be like, oh yeah, that was a fun read, but it doesn't resonate with you for a very long time. I think it's really the emotional plot that makes the story resonate and brings the characters to life. And especially if you are a cruel, cruel author and you manipulate the rate reader with an emotional plot that is specifically designed to, to bring out certain emotions at certain points where, you know, you have two characters falling in love, but you know, maybe the reader knows that it's not possible or, you know, something else is going on that they know one of them is, is not going to be true. And that can really start twisting some gears that the reader knows things that the characters don't.

Jesper (26m 45s):
And they're like, no, I want to tell you don't do it. Don't do it. And when you have a reader shaking the book, wanting to tell characters, don't do something. You got them in your story. You've got a locked. Good. Yeah. And there was, I can't remember if it was one of our Q and a sessions or when, but there was somebody asking me at some point why I hated, or maybe it was one of our interviews, which we mentioned in last week's episode that somebody asked me, why do I, why do you hate the superhero so much?

Jesper (27m 24s):
I, and all the Marvel stuff. But I think listening to what you just said, that's exactly why I don't like those superheroes stuff, because they feel so superficial that they don't have, at least to me. I mean, I understand some people would disagree and that's okay. Don't, don't, you know, send me 500 emails telling me how, how wrong I am. This is just my opinion. But, but this is just my opinion, but I feel often like the older Marvel superheroes that they don't have that same depth to them.

Jesper (28m 7s):
You don't get those well laws, I guess, you know, a lot, a lot of the time in those movies where you really get to understand their emotional journey, that they are very caught, bought kind of characters often. I feel, well, I say that. And then of course, when I don't know if I can make it, it's under, it's behind a pay wall. And I didn't feel like spending like 9 99 to watch one movie. I thought it was just like, no. Oh, okay. Okay. Because that's like the perfect example of what I'm not talking about here, because the joker is built on emotional plot.

Jesper (28m 52s):
It is built on characterization. That is really what it's about. It's not so much about the joker or Superman Batman. I meant it's not so much about that as much more about the couch and what happens to him and his personality and stuff and the eighties.

Autumn (29m 10s):
It's so good, but that, I guess that's, to some extent, proof of my point, right. That that's what I feel like that's when it gets good. Whereas the other opposite where Superman is just fighting bad guys, or Batman is fighting the Joe Crane, you know, the older movies and stuff like that. It's it's, I don't know to me, it's this way. I think I agree. So it was like Superman loves Lois lane because he does. And it's just, it's like having someone who's evil. Yeah. It's like having a character who's evil for the sake of being evil. It's just, you need to see why, I mean, what does that mean to love somebody? What will he do for her allied or about who he really is?

Autumn (29m 50s):
Does he ever feel conflicted about that? I mean, those are the questions that I really love. I love stories with a little bit of PTSD. These heroes faced massive battles. They see friends die. I want to see the reaction to that, those emotional fallouts of maybe somebody, you know, getting angry over this or not wanting, not treating themselves well, because they're so upset. That's the reality. I, I see in the world around me and that's what I want to see in the stories. And you don't just do that by like writing and you just throw in a random emotion, you know, readers will call that out. You want to have that layered in lace through the whole story, which means stepping back and looking at your plot, looking at your characters and the character arcs and saying, what is the emotional reaction?

Autumn (30m 40s):
How is this character progressing on this character arc? What does that look like emotionally at this point in this chapter and making sure that it really is added in there. It's another plot thread to make sure is clear. And I think one of the few posts I've that are out there on this had a good suggestion saying if you're writing a chapter and it feels flat, or you feel like you don't know where it's going step back and look at the emotional plot. Because if you're not, if you're not connecting with your character, it's probably because you don't know where their emotions are and their emotional plot is. And once you figure that out, you will actually get the writing that much faster. It will help you write to figure this out.

Jesper (31m 27s):
No, that might be true. Yeah. If you want to see something where it is more or less only, yeah. I would say so or driven by the emotional plot or more or less only. Yeah. You can hear that this is English. That's how you say it. Don't, you know, you should go to your native speaker, even you should know that that's how you say it more or less only driven by the emotional flood. But if you ever watched the mythic quest show it's, it's on apple TV, plus I think it's called mythic quest, but that is really like, it is just characters and their emotions basically.

Jesper (32m 12s):
I mean, of course there is some sort of applauded it's it's about like a gaming company who makes an online game. And then it's basically about the people who work in that company. And it is a, it's a comedy show and it is quite funny, but it's funny because of the characters and their emotions. It's funny. And it is, it is actually really well done. I was very hesitant to what did I, I saw the trailers in the beginning, like many, many, many months ago when I was like, yeah, don't want to, but this is typically me when I see someone that's like, no. And then later on, I give it a try and, well, this is really good. Did the same thing with American gods. I also watched the trailer for it.

Jesper (32m 53s):
Hadn't felt no. And then I watched it and I loved it, or I, I say, I'm still watching it. I love it. But, so I think if you want to see like a show where it's done really well, and it's easy to consume, it's like 20 minutes episodes or something like that. Yeah. So it's something you can easily consume. It's just a human there's. No, you don't need to think watching it at all. That there's no plot to follow as such. But I would say try to watch that show because it, it really shows you couch your feelings and emotions and how it makes you connect to those characters. I've been watching the good place, which is also very similar where it's, you know, looking at the enterprise.

Autumn (33m 37s):
It's funny, it's cute. But it's the characters you fall in love with the characters I need. Even with sexify these three young hero wins that you know, how they meet, you know, there's, there's not a ton of action there. There's, it's, she's a game and app developer. Who's just trying to get her degree, despite not knowing things about her life. I mean, yeah, it's a coming of age story, but you get so sucked in because the emotional plot is so well done. They relate these characters. And this is, again, I think it's important in this day and age because we like good characters that have flaws. And we like villains that have good qualities and all of those layers, you can try to force them into a character profile, but by showing them actually manifest through the sh the plot and through the emotional plot, seeing the characters act certain ways, not just be told that it's a good show.

Autumn (34m 31s):
It's a, not a towel. You develop that that much more and the reader experiences it. And they're going to get that little bit of connection, have those feelings. You're gonna like them when they think, oh, you know, this is a good character, a good person, but they did something wrong and there's going to be fallout from it. No, my gosh, what's that going to be? Or the villain is not a hundred percent evil and there's this other side to him. And do you just wish you'd wake up and see the smell of coffee and see his be a good person and save the world. Because as he's already got the power or the position to do it, he just needs to stop being evil. So those are the stories you really can tell really well with an emotional plot, I'll call back, call back, call back.

Jesper (35m 17s):
What did we talk about? Just a few episodes. A good look at that again. We've talked about so much. Can we just go one of the worst, top 10 lists? It's just because I want to put you on the spot. W w no, but what was the topic of the episode evil things to do? Your character is one that comes to mind, the worst things to do to characters. We talked about a point of view, and yes, this goes along. And I think there is a very, very strong correlation here, because if you're writing in deep point of view, you are going to get exactly. They go hand in hand, it's taking the deep point of view.

Autumn (35m 58s):
And if you're struggling with it, this is maybe what you're struggling with is looking at the emotional plot, getting into that character's head, because the deep point of view is also word choice. Like, you know, a sailor using, you know, as Todd, as a rigging line, you know, things like that. They're going to always use words that fit their perspective. They're not going to talk about, you know, garden hose and things like that. If they're a sailor, they don't know anything about garden hose, but they also, this is taking just the emotional side of it. So not worrying so much about the word choice that you would in the deep point of view, but talking about, you know, how are they experiencing this moment? And like I said, and then if you really want to get too technical, figuring out what you want the reader to be thinking, feeling at that moment.

Autumn (36m 44s):
And that way you can make sure that even though it's a law, you know, there's something in there, the reader is going to be gasping over or so excited. Their heart's going to be fluttering. You know, those are the kind of emotions knowing you want to do that to your reader. You can be a little bit more strategic in making sure the chapter and everything that comes before builds that kind of emotion in your reader. And I really feel like if you get used to writing and deep point of view, a lot of this will come out automatically the emotional plot and the emotional reactions and the local scenes where you get to know, I mean, a lot of that will just come out naturally as you write your first draft.

Jesper (37m 33s):
And then I think it's to a last degree, I would almost say it's a lot about being very vigilant when you do your editing passes, to make sure that you are not only looking for, you know, of course, the good grammar and all those sorts of things. And then, but, and also finding the right words, but also bringing out those emotional elements and sort of keep asking yourself, am I, am I hitting the emotional, Akio the emotional plot? Am I showing what the character feels about? What happened here? Not, not like, I think I'm not saying overdo it like all the time, but, but at least making sure that maybe, you know, every other chapter so that there is some emotional stuff.

Autumn (38m 19s):
Well, yeah, I mean, you can almost guarantee that if it's a very action packed chapter, you probably don't need to worry about the emotions. That, that is an action chapter. That's a horrible leave it. The inciting incident. You don't, you have the reaction phase after the inciting incident because you are basically dealing with emotions. But yeah, I think it's, it's something just like when you're looking, if you're doing, especially if you do edit like me and you have those layer edits and you know, you're looking for your senses, you're making sure that the opening and closing hooks are good, look at the emotions. And if it's a chapter that isn't very exciting with action, make sure that there's emotional residence and depth there and, you know, decide how you want your reader to go through the novel, how they want, how you want them to feel.

Autumn (39m 5s):
And maybe there's a way you can tweak that. I think by taking control of it and looking at it, you will have a much smoother transition and flow through the novel, and you'll make sure that those emotions resonate and you won't forget about them. Like I said, I've reading, I've been reading a couple of working with a couple of really new first time novice authors the last month. And in both of the stories, I had to point out parts where it's like this big thing happened and it undermines everything they expected. And then they just keep going. What happens next? You look at that emotional arc and make sure the character at the very least reacts. And then, you know, once you get a series under your belt, make sure you're trying to figure out how you want the reader to react and see how that goes.

Jesper (39m 49s):
See if you can work on that a little bit more, often impressed by the fact that you can, you can do several editing passes and you can be so structured and make notes and everything. When I've looked at your script, the file, it's just that it's like night and day. I don't understand how you that's. It that's all you have is a very, I have this idea. I did a medullary right in Nevada, and it really developed the series yet. You should see my tainted Fe it is much more organized and much more clear and clean and clear crisp so I can organize it.

Jesper (40m 31s):
If you think I'm mad, you should see my husband seriously. He can't find a socks. Okay. Okay. But I think, unless we have more to say on this, I think I can, I can conclude by reading out aloud how you actually ended that excellent patron article, because I think it sums everything up. Nice. Lovely. So yes, let's do that. Yeah. So these are your words being quoted to you. Okay. Yeah, it is. If your story feels, something is missing and doesn't align, look at the emotional plot.

Jesper (41m 14s):
What is the character feeling? Does it make sense? What emotion are you trying to create in the reader? Are you succeeding? Nope. Somebody has been a genius who wrote that? I don't know who that was, but the author of that article, wasn't you. Okay. So next Monday I have an interview with the extremely successful Jeff Wheeler lined up for you. So you don't want to miss that one.

Narrator (41m 54s):
If you like what you just heard. There's a few things you can do to support the am writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, yYou'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 129 – Our Favorite Book Sales Tracker and Why You Need One

Do you know how well your books are selling? We mean really know?

Without accurate sales and royalty data, you can't make accurate assessments on advertising, read-through rate, or how well that last giveaway did. Join us as we discuss some of our favorite book sales trackers and how exactly to use them.

Check out the book sales trackers we mention in the episode!

• Book Report: https://www.getbookreport.com/
• Smashwords: https://www.smashwords.com/
• KDP Reports Beta: https://kdpreports.amazon.com/
• BookTrakr: https://www.booktrakr.com/
• Bundlerabbit: https://bundlerabbit.com/home/worlds
• Draft2Digital: https://www.draft2digital.com/
• Abacus: https://publishdrive.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360026379074-Abacus-for-Co-Authors

Drop us a suggestion for our question and answer show at https://www.amwritingfantasy.com/contact/

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.  

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST! Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.  

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the am. Writing fantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt, and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper

Autumn (31s):
And I'm Autumn

Jesper (33s):
Is episode 129 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And I think This should be an interesting episode because it's a topic which we haven't touched upon previously, as in ever,

Autumn (49s):
that's pretty good at 120 some episodes, and we have a topic that we've never even touched on. And that's that's I can't complain about that. Yeah. That's pretty good to talk about book sales, trackers and why it is helpful to be organized.

Jesper (1m 8s):
Autumn organized my own methodology with how you track your sales and also which tools are available to do so. So yes. Yeah. Maybe you will actually pick up some good points from this episode. Autumn.

Autumn (1m 23s):
I have, I have I'll have, you know, I use three different sales tractor trackers, and because of the limitation, it was more the organization stuff.

Jesper (1m 34s):
I just looked at your script file before this recording. So I know, I know what you mean. What do you mean when you say organized and what I mean when I say, well, you have a very high standard in the organization. I don't think I do too badly. I know where everything is in my household. I am the organized one. So let that terrify you. Oh my God. But how are things on your end? Oh, it's good. We finally are hitting look short sleeve. We're hitting warm weather. Wow. And we're going to be, it's actually dry. We need some rain. I already see like the stream is starting to dry up and that's so sad, but it is nice to have some like shorts, weather and t-shirt weather, no coats.

Autumn (2m 19s):
So that is nice. But yeah, we need some rain and we were in a drought last year and I think this year we we're already in a drought again. It's just kind of sad to see everything drying up. Well, it's supposed to be green. Yeah.

Jesper (2m 34s):
That's not good. That's not what you want.

Autumn (2m 36s):
No, no, but yeah, it was cause I was good at some things like, we're not, I'm not going to computers, but I have not figured out how to call rain yet, but I'll work on that. But maybe that's sort of one of the advanced level, phase skills that you haven't acquired yet. I think I just need to concentrate on it more and put out some more honey dishes or something. I'll figure it out. I'll keep working on it. Okay. Other things for you and your side of the Atlantic?

Jesper (3m 7s):
Well, this is one of those very, very busy weeks, but at least I did manage to finish up the plotting for book two in our new series. So that's pretty good. It's really exciting. Yes. I got to look over it and gave some feedback and we figured some most stuff out and yeah. Now you're ready to start writing. That is so exciting. Yeah. And you caught some good stuff in it as well. That needed to be beefed up and corrected a bit. So that was great. Yeah. That's why it's so awesome to work with someone else. You get to have someone looking over your shoulder going really, instead of hitting a plot hole, they pointed out before you yeah, right. Yeah. Indeed. Or just in some of the cases, it wasn't necessarily a pothole. Some of it was also just more just strengthening the logic behind things, you know, that it makes a bit more logical sense and so on.

Jesper (3m 55s):
So at least I might not be organized, but I'm very logical. That is a plus that you are absolutely, you're very good at that kind of thing. But I was also out refereeing this past weekend. Why experience really? So you hear that even though, you know, COVID well, in some places it's easing up in some places it's getting worse, but I mean, people are actually getting together and they can play sports now in Denmark and happy there should be happy behave, right? Yes. Well actually sort of by the final whistle we had the two teams almost fighting each other, so yeah, I was not too good.

Jesper (4m 41s):
So do you want a short story about what happened? Let's go since I don't see anything interesting going on in my life at the moment, that's your about yours? Well, because the weird thing is that I still don't quite understand it. Right. So yeah, so we were, we were three referees because this is, I can't translate it into an anti-American terms, but it's sort of like, it's not the pro levels, but it's sort of just below, slightly, not just below, but slightly below pro level. So they're, they're, they're not amateurs as such, but so they're pretty good, but they're not pros either. So it's somewhere in the middle. Right? So because of that level, then you are three referees.

Jesper (5m 22s):
You don't have like the main head referee and then you have two running the line. And in this match, I was, I was on the line, which means that you will, well, in my case, I was next to the, one of the benches and one of the coaches and the other linesman was on the other side with the other bends and the other coach and substitutes. And then all of a sudden, like there was probably like 10 minutes left. And then all of a sudden the coach on my side, he starts yelling and screaming and like five or six players sort of go Spisak as well, jumps up and screams. And I'm still, I don't what happened. And, and he's, he's yelling at me because I'm on his side, right on his side of the pitch show.

Jesper (6m 5s):
I'm, I'm sort of the one he, he needs to approach if he needs to say anything or if also just in general, w w if he wants to substitute, somebody has to get my permission to do it. And so on. So he, he, he addresses me and he starts shouting like, eh, we are not gonna, you know, accept this kind of behavior and screaming and shouting. And I, I still don't know what's happening. So I'm like, what? What's wrong? And he's scraped, well, the other bench over there, they, they calling, you know, calling racist names to our players and stuff like that. And that was like, really, what did he say? And I'm not going to say it here, but he's had some, he said that the other coach over there said some really nasty word that you just don't use.

Jesper (6m 51s):
I'm not going to repeat it here, but you can imagine. So I, and there is a linesman over there, another referee, right. So, but he's sort of going berserk. So I shout to him that he needs to sit down right now and then I'll take care of it. So, so he's, he does, he sits down and then I flag the main head coach or the main referee over. And I asked him, so what is going on? Because if it's true, what he's saying, you need to stop just showing some yellow and red cards now, because this it's not acceptable. If it's correct what he's saying, but I haven't heard anything because I'm on the other side of the pitch. So I don't know what they freaking out about. So he goes over and talks to the other linesmen, and then he comes back and save.

Jesper (7m 34s):
The other linesman, says that he's standing right next to the, to the coach over there. And he didn't say anything. And then I'm like, okay, then I don't understand. So why, why is six people freaking out at the same time? Nothing was said, I, I just can't make up the logic. And still, I can't make up the logic. So we never figured out what happened, but, but then 10 minutes later, we, the final whistle blows. And then they storm over to the other events and they almost have a fight over there. And, and, and so something must have happened. I mean, I, I just don't understand, but so why did the other linesmen not hear it? The other linesman was then he was a quite young guy. He was like 17 or something.

Jesper (8m 14s):
It was probably his third match or something. So he was when they stormed over there, very courageous, I guess, from him, he was, he started to try to put himself in the middle and push them apart. And I just went over there and winged him a wasted, come over here, just leave them alone. And we take our notebook and we make notes of who does what? So we can report it to the union. If somebody hits somebody, we know who hit who, so just don't get involved. Don't stand in the middle of it. Let them fight if they want to fight, but we just take notes of who does what, nobody hit anybody. They were yelling and shouting and pushing each other. But it's just like, yeah, it's weird. Right? When you, you don't even know what happened. I still don't understand.

Jesper (8m 56s):
Maybe people have been cooped up too long, but yeah, that just seems weird that something obviously sparked off some kind of anger and no one else heard it. Something came out of the void and only these six people, apparently there was a Fe coming or something. It wasn't me. I was, if I was in Denmark, I would have done something else that day, not riled up soccer players.

Narrator (9m 24s):
Oh, a week on the internet with the yam writing fantasy podcast.

Jesper (9m 29s):
I don't know if you noticed all of them, but the was a very, very funny post by Jason in the am, writing fantasy Facebook group that you notice that how she's had a few this last week. So no, which one was this one? He had, there was like an image. I I'm sure he got it from somewhere else. I at least I assume, but it was a comparison of Lord of the rings with the Teletubbies. So there was like, that was the images next to each other, like, like the Hobbit hole. And then the whole top piece with also has this grass await and then the characters, the hobbits, and then the four Teletubbies. And then there was the eye of Sauron and then the sun from Teletubbies where there's a face in the sun as well.

Jesper (10m 13s):
Right. Oh, that's fantastic. No, I totally missed that line. That, that doesn't surprise me about the group or Jason, who is one of our moderators. And he's obviously a very fun sort of moderator. Oh, I'm going to go find that one. Now that'll give me something to do when I get off. Yeah. It's very good. It's very good. I, yeah, it's just a lot of fun stuff going on in the Facebook group. So if, if you deal, isn't not having joined yet then just so it's 4:00 AM writing fantasy in the group section of Facebook, and then you will find us, but something else I wanted to mention as well, autumn, because we've been asking, we've been asked, I should say Radha.

Jesper (10m 53s):
We've been asked by some of our listeners to record an episode where we talk about our own group to publishing.

Autumn (10m 60s):
Yes. For summary. A lot of our fans, I think it was actually, one of them was on Facebook and the other one was a request like the same week on Patreon and saying, Hey, you've interviewed all these other people. You talk about, you know, how to write and this and that. You never talk about your own writing and like what books you have out and all of those things. And we're like, oh really? We haven't mentioned that good point a hundred and something episodes in and yeah, 129, this one is okay.

Jesper (11m 35s):
Yeah. Yeah, indeed. So I wanted to make a request to your listener because I don't really feel like making a podcast episode where I'm asking all them questions that I already know the answer to. And then I guess vice versa as well. I, it's probably not very exciting for autumn either. And I hope as you've probably pick up from these podcast episodes that we try to have fun with it. We enjoy doing it, but I don't want to record something about a topic that I don't enjoy. So what I want to do is that I want us to be answering your questions. Yes. So please, if there is anything you want us to, or you want to ask us about why we started writing, I don't know.

Jesper (12m 21s):
Some of the obstacles we've come found along the way or our collaboration, whatever, you know, then please send us your question. We've placed a link to the contact form on am, writing fantasy.com in the show notes. So you can just click there and just use the contact form to post your question. And then we will add them all together. And if we get enough of them, then we will record a podcast episodes asking or answering questions.

Autumn (12m 52s):
Sounds like, but we've done sort of something similar once, but we were, it was different questions. So this will be really fun. We already have a few coming in, so it'll be exciting to see what else we get.

Jesper (13m 3s):
Someone really gets something juicy. I never would have thought of asking you. That'd be really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Well maybe funny if it goes to you, that kind of question. I feel like I can ask the question, but, huh. Okay. Well, I'll start here. We should probably point out that what we're going to share is not an exhaustive list. There are definitely more options available out there to us north compared to the ones that we're going to mention here today. So if you think we have missed some important ones, then just leave us a comment. So everyone else also becomes aware of your suggestion.

Autumn (13m 46s):
Absolutely. And this is such a handy tool because if you are selling books on like Amazon and you go into just the regular dashboard where you're your KDP dashboard and you try to follow along with your books. I mean, I remember when you have one or two books, that's okay. But once you get a series, once you get a couple series, once I think I'm up to 20 something books, oh, freak. That it's just too hard. You need to use one of these ways of really tracking things and drilling down. Especially if you're going to run AMS ads, Facebook ads, you need to know how books are selling. You need to have a baseline. You need to know how things are going. You have to keep track.

Autumn (14m 26s):
See, I do know what I'm doing with these reports. Yeah. And I think it's also worth mentioning upfront here that if you're just starting out, this is probably not worth your time and effort to worry about right now. But I do still think it's probably good to listen in because then you are, you are aware of what you need to think about down the line. And I think that'll be helpful as well, even, even if you're just starting out. Yes. And if you are just starting out, there is actually a new feature on Amazon for KDP sales that we can mention that I think works just perfectly specific spiffy. If you're just starting out and want to have something better than the KDP dashboard report, which that little bar chart that's just blocked.

Autumn (15m 13s):
Just totally blessed. Yeah. I dunno. I don't have so much trouble with it, but I'll explain why once we get to the end of the episode, but I mean, why do we want to keep, or why do we want to track and keep some sort of organization around book sales will? Well, of course we all want to know how many books we're selling. That's sort of a no-brainer right. But I think what it also comes down to this stuff is really the time that it takes to collect the data, like you just touched upon and there are actually some services out there that will do this thing for you and then save you the time and effort, which you can then spend on writing and stuff.

Jesper (15m 55s):
So that's, that's pretty nice, right? Yeah. Yes. And I think it's so important. I know, even when I first started doing ads and stuff, you really need to take a baseline. You need to see how your ads are being successful. You're going to spend money on marketing, even if you're going to do like whether it's Amazon or an AMS ad through Facebook, or even just do a newsletter swap or, or sales swap where you're pointing them to a newer release or even doing something like a one-shot deal, like a free Booksy or bargain books. So you something like that or how heck BookBub, if you get one of those, you need to be able to track what before and after to see how effective it was because you're spending money and he told these things get expensive and you don't want to just be throwing money and actually find out you would have been doing better.

Jesper (16m 40s):
If you hadn't spent that money on ads, that would be really bad. Yeah. The other thing as well that you want, or the reason why you want to track it as well is so that you can start calculating read-through. Yes. We're not going to go into read through here and what it is and how to calculate it and all that. But if you're interested in that go all the way back to episode 53, I interviewed Adam Croft because he actually explained everything in episode 53 of the am writing fantasy podcast. So just go back there, listen to that one. If you want to know more about read-through but excellent keeping track of your sales will allow you to calculate your read-through, which is important. That's explained in episode 53.

Autumn (17m 23s):
Gosh, I don't even remember that one. That's really sad. I might have to go back and listen to it myself. That's a long time back. Yeah, it is. I do know Rhea throw though.

Jesper (17m 33s):
Yeah. Okay. So let's go through these and share our thoughts on them on, on what we have here. And we haven't necessarily used all of them ourselves. At least I haven't found the ones that I picked. All of them. We, well, I have better things to do than testing out tracking software, but I'm still gonna share some reflection on them though. So I don't know if I do want to start out daughter.

Autumn (17m 55s):
Sure. Do you want me to start? I have two that I'm not sure if they're on your list that are the two. Well, actually, like I said, I have three that I use and one of them is kind of cheating, but if I do what I like to cheat, I have to, we haven't even started the list yet.

Jesper (18m 10s):
And you already say you're cheating.

Autumn (18m 11s):
I am. I think it's fair because some people don't realize the features that are already available. And I think one of them is the new, there's a KDP report. That's in beta testing. I'm not well, you and I have discussed it. And I'm not sure if it's outside of the U S or it's just inside the us. No, I don't think I see it on my end. I don't think I see it. No. If, if you have access to it, when you go to your KDP dashboard and you go to the reports section, right at the top, it'll say, Hey, try out the new KDP dashboard or the KTP reports beta, and you can click on that. And it takes you to a much swankier KTP site that has like a nice side call 'em and actually showed you book pictures of like those sales and for that day and all these stats.

Autumn (18m 57s):
And yes. And so it's visually, it's so much better. It's much easier to see what's selling. It does when you go into your there's a royalty estimator there, which is fantastic. So you can really drill down and see how your books are selling by, you know, separating out your author names. If you have a pen name or other author names, uploaded the book, the format, a lot of the same stuff you see in a regular KDP dashboard. So that's fantastic. I think my only complaint and one of the big limitations I see with it is your choice for time periods to look at, or this month and last month, that's it? That might be just because it's in, it might be B beta.

Autumn (19m 38s):
I think they like that.

Jesper (19m 40s):
Yeah. I'm hoping it's just because it's in beta, but at the moment, it's like, no,

Autumn (19m 44s):
it looks so cool. It has this great information, great much nicer charts and graphs charts, and a lot more information than your regular dashboard or at least the same information. But normally you have to do the drop down menus and it's so time consuming, this is all click and visual. It's very nice. But yeah, that's the worst thing I could say about it is that it's just like, I look at it. I'm like this month, last month, that's it. And today, and that is it. So you're supposed to live in the present. Isn't that what you said? Yes. So I have to get my Zen going. Yes.

Jesper (20m 19s):
Don't worry about the past. Who cares?

Autumn (20m 22s):
Right. So if you want me to keep going my favorite one and the one I do use a lot and have for years, at least 2018, I don't know, maybe 2017, I've been using a book report. And so that is a fantastic one. It pulls the information from your KDP. So you actually have to give it permission to go into your Amazon files. And that one literally goes back to the day, uploaded your first book. So you can get your royalty is from forever. Even if you like just got it today, it'll pull the history. So you can see what you sold last year. You can narrow it down by book. It has reviews. Some of the features are it admits it's not a hundred percent up to date, but hopefully they'll maybe sync it a little bit better and it'll pull in reviews and your current book, ratings and rankings, all of those things are accessible through one dashboard.

Autumn (21m 15s):
The worst thing I can say is that it is only for Amazon books. And I think that's unfortunate. It is also kind of cool because it's alive click. So you see, so you see someone got a book and it says it was given away as a freebie because it lists freebies and sales and it gives you your royalty amount right there without you having to deduct or try to figure out what your royalties are. So you can click on that and it'll take you right to Amazon. So that's kind of cool. So you can go check on books really quickly. I sometimes forget that if you buy my paperback, you can get what my ebook for free. And I'm like, how'd they get that book for free? And you click on it. No, everything looks fine. Oh right. I have that set up. So you can get that for free. If you buy the paperback because seriously, I don't buy the paperback. You should get something besides obviously an awesome book that you can put on your shelf.

Autumn (22m 0s):
So I do love that. And I think book report is just a simple Chrome plugin, right?

Jesper (22m 7s):
It is, it is a Chrome plugin. I think there's an app for your phone as well. I can't remember now, but it is nice. And it's one of the cool things is it's a very informative, very, I think it tells you a lot, especially we're selling mostly on Amazon or you gotta run AMS ads.

Autumn (22m 22s):
It has a ton of information. And if you are selling less than a thousand dollars a month, it's free. And I think if you're over a thousand dollars, it's only like $10. It's, it's not 19. I couldn't remember what it, if it had gone up, but it's just not, if you're selling more than a thousand dollars 19, it's not that it's not a lot. I just, it's still, I just appreciate so much that it is really a very informative plugin, even if it is only KTP. I mean, that is usually even if you're wide, that is normally where most of your sales are coming from. And if you're running AMS ads, you need those specifically. So that it's free for under a thousand.

Autumn (23m 1s):
That's amazing.

Jesper (23m 4s):
Yeah. No, I quite like it as well. I've not used it myself, but I've seen it in use many times. The only thing I think is the downside. If you can call it that, it's the fact, like you mentioned that you have to lock into your KDP account. Otherwise it cannot collect the data, which I think is it's a bit, it usually you usually have to do it only once I've had problems. I have my Amazon on second level of validation. Of course, it's my books. Of course I have that like locked down tighter than anything. But so every once in a while they get out of sync and you have to click a button and then refresh it and it takes all of five seconds. It really isn't too bad, but yeah, it is giving a secondary app up, you know, they can go and read the, so you have to make sure you've got to trust this feature.

Autumn (23m 48s):
I agree with you there.

Jesper (23m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have a couple of will to go through. I wouldn't say that I'm cheating, but it goes into a bit of different territory as well, because I think there's more to this topic than, than just tracking sales. It is also about saving the time, which means that the, some other tools can actually do that for you as well. So I'm going to go through some of those as well. But the first one I wanted to mention is actually called book tracker, but it's T R a K book tracker. I'm like, yeah, that's a bit different way of spelling.

Jesper (24m 31s):
So this one will actually log into all of your accounts every day. So it doesn't matter if you are publishing via Amazon, Google, Kobo, drafted, digital, whatever. But book tracker will log into all the accounts and check your sales numbers every day. And then it compiles all the data and presents it to you in some pretty looking charts. And it also sends you like a daily email summary. So that's quite nice. There is some things that I don't like though. Really? Yeah, because when you go to book trackers website, if you want to start using it, they don't show what the cost is anywhere.

Autumn (25m 13s):
Oh. And that just feels wrong to me. I don't like it. You know what I mean? It's like, they're trying to hide something. Yeah. It's that, there's an old joke that says, well, if you have to ask what the price is, you can't afford it.

Jesper (25m 27s):
So well. Yeah. So I searched around quite a bit and I was unable to locate the pricing information from the website. Maybe it's somewhere hidden, but I, at least I could not find it, but I got through some other sources that mentioned that book tracker costs $5 per month. If you want to receive the daily emails and then $10 a month, if you want to also use it to track new reviews and it track your rankings and so on. So if it's $5 a dose of that. Yeah. I mean, if those prices are correct, which I'm not a hundred percent sure about, but if they are then the pricing is not too bad, but it just rubs me the wrong way that they don't show it on the website.

Autumn (26m 7s):
It should be clear. What, what does it cost? How could you have a 14 day free trial? Isn't that, that's sort of the thing, isn't it?

Jesper (26m 16s):
Yeah. Yeah. Correct. And then the other thing is cost that I don't like about this is the fact that, of course, for it, to be able to log into all your accounts every day to collect the data, it has to know all your passwords, which also I don't like, so there is that. Yeah, that is always an easy and I would say, oh, that was, that actually reminds me.

Autumn (26m 37s):
I did have a third one. So if you use a distributor, you're probably going to mention one, I use Smashwords and they have two different features in there. They have a daily sales that gives you your sales by all of the platforms they distribute, as well as books. You can also break that down really well. And they also have a, more of a historical, that's a much more cumbersome spreadsheet that you have to really like spreadsheets. And I don't like spreadsheets, that's your job. I don't go into that one much, but it actually tells you, you know, if you had sales, how much you had sales and if like Barnes and noble has gone ahead and paid Smashwords yet, or if they have not sent the money yet. So you can really get some nitty gritty, fine tune details with that.

Autumn (27m 19s):
So I have obviously been in there and looked at it and said, oh my God, this is scary. I ran away. But the daily sales chart, which again, you can back that up. I think 60 90 you can put in a day amount. So you can back it up really far and see like your spikes, where you were, things were happening. So that was one of the advantages of using a distributor. Obviously that doesn't give me my Amazon stuff, but it gives me everything else. And I will say that it is a very good and very up-to-date and from what I've seen, very accurate way of seeing where all my other sales. So I literally, if I wanted to, I go to two places, I can go to book report slash Amazon KDP and Smashwords, and I see those two and I know what I'm selling.

Jesper (28m 3s):
Right. Okay. So the next couple of ones that I have is a software that will get the job done, but it's not in its origin, really designed for book tracking in the sense that it's not as neat as book report, you know, book report is designed for that purpose alone. Whereas the stuff that I'm going to mention now will get the job done, but it's not what it was intended for in, in that sense. And the first one using software,

Autumn (28m 32s):
how dare you?

Jesper (28m 34s):
Yeah. I don't know.

Autumn (28m 35s):
I'm a rebel at heart. I knew I would rub off on you.

Jesper (28m 43s):
Yes. Well, at least I haven't started breaking things yet. So as long as I don't break software, then it's okay. We'll see. We'll talk about the first one I want to mention is BundleRabbit. And this is actually one of the tools that we were looking into as well considering using, but we steered away from it because to use Butler rabbit, you have to publish through Ponta rapid, and then it's basically sort of like draft to digital. So you, you use them as an aggregator and then they, they keep 10% of the royalties as part of the service fee for what they're doing.

Jesper (29m 23s):
Of course you don't have the concern about sharing your passport passwords anymore because you only access panto rabbit. And then they distribute to everybody else, including Amazon. So that's good. And the good news is as well that if you sell new books, it doesn't cost you anything because they only take 10% off the royalties. Right? So if you don't get paid royalties, there's nothing to take anything off. So you can actually sign up for it and start using it. And it's not an, unless you earn money, they don't earn any money. So that's quite nice. And you can definitely use punter rabbit to track all of your sales in one dashboard across all the retailers.

Autumn (30m 2s):
Wow. So that is a real advantage.

Jesper (30m 4s):
And it's probably how you can also use it to split payments between several different authors. That's also a very nice feature. And that was actually originally why we looked at it because, well, we have royalties to split, so we were looking at it. But then when it became apparent that then we have to publish through butter rabbit, then that's where I saw it said, no, I don't want to do that. But it's possible if you want to, if you don't mind that, then you can do that. And you can get all the tracking in that one dashboard, which is very nice.

Autumn (30m 35s):
That is, I'm curious though, since they distribute to Amazon, can you be choose KDP select and do like your, your free days? Or is it like just, just generic, Amazon KDP?

Jesper (30m 49s):
You can, it's a good question. I would think not, but that's a good question, actually. I don't know. No, because I was thinking, that's why, that's why, like, it's very similar to Smashwords. I think Smashwords can sell, send to Amazon if you want it. I believe. Or at least they were working on that at one time, but I never used that because not that I'm doing KDP select, but you don't have that option if you go through a distributor.

Autumn (31m 17s):
So no, you probably can't know because it is exclusive with Amazon and then you go through the KDP dashboard, at least that's my assumption, but maybe somebody will know and they can let us know in the comments, I guess, logically, if you're just doing KDP select, you don't need the rest of the link. So you would just go to KDP select.

Jesper (31m 37s):
Yeah, correct. Correct. I think that one through, but the, the nice thing with BundleRabbit as well and where it is different from draft to digital with system X, one, I'm going to touch upon the difference here is that you can also tell Bundlerabbit that this author here I have co-written with, and this author needs to get 50% of royalties and I need to get 50% and then Butler rabbit will split that automatically. Cool. So, so, so you don't have to do anything yourself in terms of splitting royalties with somebody else. So that is very nice, but of course they are going to eat those 20 10% off the top every time. So that's the, that's the payment. You have to give them to afford the service.

Jesper (32m 19s):
So, yeah, but then let's, let's move on to draft digital because this is basically exactly the same as bottler rabbit. I probably most listeners already know draft to digital and they also know that they also take 10% off the top as a part of the service draft to digital, as far as

Autumn (32m 37s):
I know, I think they have quite come out with a royalty share option as well. Just like bam, Butler rabbit. I think that they can do this nowadays as well.

Jesper (32m 46s):
I think they call it drafted digital worlds or something like that. Not a rip off of Kindle worlds at all. So I'm using Draft2Digital myself and not bundle rabbit. So yeah, I'll go out on a limb here and say they're probably extremely similar. Yeah. Those two services and drafted a digital, of course, if you don't, if you're not using it, they can get to Amazon as well. So again, you can get all your sales in one dashboard.

Autumn (33m 17s):
That's pretty cool. So, yeah. So I guess those are sort of like the three big distributors that kind of do it. Smashwords drafted digital and bundle rabbit. Yeah. And then the next one here is quite different, but again, it'll get the job done.

Jesper (33m 36s):
And this is one we actually used for a little while only. So this is Abacus and we only used it for a little while and I explain why in a moment, but it basically Abbott cost costs you 2, 2 99 a month per book with the first title is free forever. Okay. And what really drew us into using Abacus in the first place was because you, you're not only tracking your sales in that because, but also your costs. So for instance, let's say that you you're running BookBub ads or Facebook ads or something like that.

Jesper (34m 16s):
And especially when you're collaborating with somebody else and you need to pay royalties and split the royalties. Abacus is basic. Let's say, for example, let's say that I have paid for a cover design, for example, or something. And then the, I would have to deduct that cost from Autumn's royalty share because she needs to pay part of it. But I was the one who shelled out the money in the first place. So in Abacus, I would just add in the cost for the cover design. And I will just mark that this one was paid by me and then Abacus will automatically take out Autumn's part of the cost and subtract that from her royalties and even it out so that everybody gets to share out the royalties, but also pay their part of the cost.

Jesper (35m 2s):
So it is basically like more like an accountant system, to be honest than it is a pro book tracker service. But you can use it for book tracking because you have all your royalties for all of your books in there, and you have all your costs in one place as well. And it will tell you by the end, I would like it to be better in terms of actually generating a full like royalty report. I would like it to do that. It doesn't do that very well, but it will tell you, this author should get this amount of dollars and this author should get that amount of dollars. It will tell you that, but it's not a blank. It doesn't show you a pretty report about it though, which I think is a bit of a shame because thinking about the fact that you will probably most use Abacus, if you co author stuff, right.

Jesper (35m 46s):
And hence you would normally also need to send some sort of summary or something to the other author to show them, this is the royalties. These are the cost and this is the distribution of it. Right. So I would think if advocacy could generate a report like that, that would be incredibly useful, but they don't.

Autumn (36m 5s):
Yeah, I agree. That's sort of like the whole point is like you get all this data and you can sell someone like you only get this or you get this much royalties and they're like, I want to see the accounting. I mean, you kind of want to be able to show that to them indeed.

Jesper (36m 19s):
So there's no real good way of doing that in Abacus. So, but let me just get, get back to the point from before. Why did we then use Abacus for a short while and then stopped using it? Because again, and basically it is very neat in the sense that you download your KDP royalty report and then you upload it to Abacus just as it is from the download from Amazon, you don't do anything with it. You just automatically upload it to Abacus and Abacus automatically extract the data and automatically identifies the books and put the royalties into the different buckets. Okay. You had this book had this many ebook sales, this book had this many paperback sales and so on. So all of that happens automatically, which is very, very nice.

Jesper (37m 2s):
Yeah. But, and here's the big, but the huge spot independence, the downside is that all the non-Amazon platforms, let's say that you have a book where you show the copy on Kobo, for example, right. But you did not sale sale, a copy of the same book on Amazon in that particular month. I know in like Fata majority of the cases, that will never be the case because most of your sales will be on Amazon. But we have, we had an example where we did sell some books on Kobo that didn't sell in that month on Amazon. And the problem is that Abacus forces you to upload your KDP role, to report a step one in the process.

Jesper (37m 47s):
And that means that it populates the books that sold on Amazon. And then you can go into those books and you can add, okay, then I also sold for $400 on Kobo, or I had $50 of cost on Amazon ads on that book. And you can go in and add all that in. And then everything works fine. But if the book wasn't indicated KDP royalty report, it does not get populated in Abacus for that month. And there's no way of manually adding a book in Abacus for that month. So you start trouble. Yeah. And that's really annoying. And that's why I, in the end, I sort of said to autumn, I'm done with this stuff because it's basically not working.

Jesper (38m 31s):
Right. Because especially when you're co-authoring and you need to share royalty reports, you can't have, like, you told you sold for a hundred dollars on cobalt, but you have no where to show it. Right. That doesn't work. Right.

Autumn (38m 42s):
And you're like you said, it's probably unusual, but it does happen. It's possible for things to happen like that. And the fact that you can't manually add it, or I know you'd have to trick the spreadsheet and like use some last months data and it just would be messy. And that's really frustrating. And the last thing you want to do to me, the spreadsheets are frustrating enough. I just want it to be simple and it gets to dose in a second. Excellent. And I would say at first the price of 2 99, a book I'm like, oh, wow. But I guess if you're selling enough books, if that has less than 10% of the royalties for that book, that could be a good price. It could be high. It could be a little for you, but that's something to keep in mind is like all the other ones seem to be 10% of your sales.

Autumn (39m 27s):
So if you're selling more than what would be 2 99 a month, advocates might be cheaper or it might be three times as much.

Jesper (39m 39s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. For me, I think the other solutions are better if you, unless you really need a detailed accounting system where you can put in cost as well. Then I would say draft two digital or bundle rabbit is probably better if you're trying to split royalties with somebody else. But if you need the accounting system, advocacy is definitely usable, but just be mindful that you have this problem about the fact that if the book didn't sell on KDP and you're stuck for that month, which is stupid to me, but that's the way it's designed. At least maybe they changed the someday. I don't know. But I made sure to let them know when I canceled our accounts, that this was the reason. So whether they do something about it, I don't know, maybe it'll benefit some of the listeners one day when, when they change it.

Jesper (40m 23s):
I don't know. Okay. So two final other options. The first one very short here, you could, of course, if you can afford it to, I know this is probably for those who are quite further along, but if you can afford it, there's always the option of having a virtual assistant taking care of this stuff for you and just keeping track of the book sales and going into the dashboards, collect the data and summarize it for you. That's perfectly fine.

Autumn (40m 52s):
And definitely something you can get somebody to do, but yeah, let's leave that alone for now. Collaborate with someone like Jesper, who does it for you and it's fantastic.

Jesper (41m 2s):
Well, yeah, because that's the last, that's the last option? Well, that's called writing with me 200 people starting to wanting to call them. No, no, no. But what I wanted to say is the way that I do it now, which to me honestly, is the easiest and the best way of doing it. And I know miles will wear it here and not everybody will agree and that's okay. But just to share how I do it, because I've been through several of these different solutions, I've looked multiple different passports and try to figure out how to do it best because the thing is, I want to spend as little time as possible every month, collecting royalty reports and figuring out how much money I own to auto autumn and transfer the money to her.

Jesper (41m 51s):
Right. I, I don't want to spend too much time on it because that's time away from writing. And at the same time, I also need to produce a royalty report to autumn so that she can actually see that I'm not cheating her or something like that, that she could follow. But it's only fair, right? I mean, when you have money between people, you should also account for w how does that money go in and out of the accounts? So I need to do all of that every month and I need to do it as easy as possible. So what I ended up doing was that I set aside two full working days because that's how long it took me. But to, to basically build an Excel template, which has automated formulas to handle everything like currency conversions, revenue, cost, and cost management.

Jesper (42m 42s):
So basically it takes automatically. I just put in what the exchange rates are in the Excel sheet now. And it automatically starts calculating for each of the currency, how much that is in dollars. Nice, because I always paid autumn in dollars. So it automatically starts calculating that. And then what it does it then is as well that I plug in how much sales we have from each of the dashboards. So that's the, that's the, the time-consuming pot that I go into each of the online distributors, I download the roll to reports and I manually type it into the Excel sheet, like, okay, for this platform, we had this many sales and this amount of royalties, but then Excel automatically starts calculating converting it to dollars.

Jesper (43m 29s):
And when I then type in the cost, I have automated formulas that takes all the royalties and subtract all the costs and do the 50% royalty split between myself and autumn. So at the bottom of the sell sheet, it just tells me this year, this is the amount I need to transfer to autumn. And that's it. So it's actually pretty easy. And of course, I've made a show that I can just copy out all those calculations and put them into a document and send it to autumn. So the Roger report is actually the easiest part nowadays that takes like five minutes. So I would say all in all to do this once a month, I probably spent like 90 minutes, I would say to do the whole thing once a month. And that's not too bad.

Jesper (44m 13s):
It took some time in west investment upfront to spend two days playing around with, I mean, if you were like the world champion with Excel, you can probably do it much quicker, but I was playing around with it quite a lot to get the, all the formulas to work just like a one or two. So it took me two days, but that was a one time and time investment. Right. I don't have to do that again because now I have to template and I just plug into data every month and that's it. So to me, that is the best way of doing it. I don't have to spend, you know, some part of a revenue to some other tracking service, or I don't have to pay somebody some software somewhere transform nothing.

Jesper (44m 56s):
Yeah. I just collect the data, put them into my Excel sheet and boom, I'm done. So, yeah, it's 90 minutes a month. But on the other hand, there are limitations on these other software that we have mentioned anyway. So they don't do the full job. Most of them, anyway, a book report for example is wonderful, but it's only Amazon. Some of the other ones will tell you the royalties, but then you have to give them your past codes and they will take, take a fee or 10% and so on. So on. So yeah, that's my thoughts on that. I think that sounds fair. And especially like, if you, even if you want to use like bundle rabbit or something, but then you want to have like maybe the first book in a different series in KDP select, you now got to account, and it's also confusing.

Autumn (45m 43s):
And I definitely the, your self-made spreadsheet, which I noticed you haven't let me touch, which is probably not going to get anywhere near that accidentally erase. It always keep backups. That's the rule, but I think your spreadsheet works marvelously and it does what we need. And yeah, 90 minutes is a crunch, but at the same time, once a month for stuff, I mean, you run the AMS ads, you run a lot of the Facebook ads. So, you know, you're spending time doing that. It's part of the LA life of being an author is also the marketing part. So 90 months over an entire month, it's not so bad.

Jesper (46m 25s):
No, I don't think so. And we've of cost made sure to add links to everything we talked about in the show notes so that you can easily check out any of those solutions that you might be interested in, but I think that's it. And next Monday

Autumn (46m 41s):
We will be back to talk about actual writing. And this time we explore the emotional plus, what is it how to use

Narrator (46m 51s):
If you like, what you just heard. There's a few things you can do to support the, an writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreonn.com/amwriting fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the M writing fantasy podcast going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 128 – Top 10 Reasons Why Your Character Will HATE You

In this episode of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper compete to come up with the best (or worst rather) list of things you could ever do to your characters.

 

Here's a list of the worldbuilding and RPG podcasts where Autumn and Jesper were interviewed recently. 

Worldbuilders Weekly: https://youtu.be/I_yLroTjxVc 

TableTopTotality: https://youtu.be/YbikMcycuig 

Game Mastery: https://anchor.fm/game-mastery/episodes/Episode-23-World-Building-and-Storytelling---Interview-e1068tb  

 

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday. 

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. 

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. 

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need an literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper.

Autumn (32s):
And I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 128 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And we are going to have some fun today, as we share the top 10 worst things you could ever do to a character. And as usual, we'll have to vote on one by creating the best or the worst list, so to speak. So I think it's the worst list we should call it. Isn't it?

Autumn (58s):
I think it has become the worst list, like put on the worst thing that we can do to characters. That makes sense in a way.

Jesper (1m 7s):
Yeah, I think this should be interesting.

Autumn (1m 11s):
It should. And I have a total confession to make is that I I've had a very busy week and my husband had recently gotten a second vaccination and he had a bit of a reaction and was not doing so well. And it was this morning. I opened up, I think, goodness, I was doing my homework. I opened up a sauna or a little checklist to look, to see what the topic was. And I said, oh crap, I've got to come up with a list. So I feel like I did, like, I did my homework right before class, but that doesn't mean it is not awesome. I put in a lot of mind power to make this list very quickly.

Jesper (1m 48s):
I'm pretty sure my list is better than you, Autumn.

Autumn (1m 51s):
You always have that confidence. So we will see.

Jesper (1m 57s):
It's like fake it till you make it, right?

Autumn (1m 60s):
That's all right. But let's just do it. You can't rattle my cage. I am completely confident in what my abilities here. So I have done some horrible things to characters. I am calm. I'm good with this.

Jesper (2m 13s):
Okay. Well, I might have a few surprises, but I am looking forward to see what you came up with on the fly, which of course cannot be as good as the, but on the other hand, yo, I have to say if what you came up with on the flies better than the stuff that I really thought about, then it's not good for me.

Autumn (2m 30s):
It's true. I might have to give me this one. We'll have to see how it goes. I'm sure yours are very good.

Jesper (2m 37s):
Of course, of course, of course.

Autumn (2m 40s):
And so how have things been over in Denmark?

Jesper (2m 46s):
Well, something crazy happened this last weekend.

Autumn (2m 50s):
Really? Just over the weekend?

Jesper (2m 52s):
Just over the weekend. We went to a restaurant really, who would know something as ordinary, as visiting a restaurant would suddenly feel you saw other people eating. Yeah. It wasn't incredible. Well, the service was not good, right. Or to have for a go to a restaurant. Yeah. It was like the, the waitress. She was really nice and smiling and helpful and all that. So nothing wrong with that. But I think it was in the kitchen, but every single order got messed up. So we had to keep sending stuff back.

Jesper (3m 32s):
It was a sushi restaurant, so we have to keep, and they may get on order. So we kept sending stuff back and then we had to wait another 20 minutes until the meat, what they were supposed to make in the first place. So at the end we could have eaten a bit more, but we just got to like, ah, I'm fed up now. I don't want to wait another 20 minutes on another wrong. Right in the end we just left. But that's, it was still good. We still went to the restaurant. So that's pretty cool.

Autumn (3m 59s):
And I'm jealous. I love sushi. I actually planning on my husband's going away soon for a training. It might be gone as much as three weeks. I'm going to miss him like crazy. But I'm thinking he's not as big of a sushi fan as I am. So I'm thinking of maybe learning to make some sushi while he's gone, because it's like in Vermont, for some reason, it's not a good sushi selection. It's like California roll in that sense. Okay. Okay. I absolutely love sushi. It's one of my favorites, to be honest, I come over where you're going to a sushi restaurant then, because I can't wait. That'd be so awesome.

Jesper (4m 36s):
Yes. This a local restaurant here. It's all you can eat sushi. Oh, just keep watering. That is fantastic. Okay. I'm going to fly to Denmark to get sushi that can't be sure it's a funny world. Yeah. But I think other than that in writing news, I'm just putting the finishing touches on the outline for book two and our new series. So I'm hoping to send you that final final.

Autumn (5m 3s):
I cannot wait to see that. That'd be fantastic. Yeah. Then we can get into that. But what about you? Oh, well I can at least say the leaves have finally popped here and it looks like spring, even though the weather's, you know, actually kind of like light jacket weather, but it's sunny and the Birch or the beach trees are pollinating and they have these little Tufts of, of just like poof that are part of their pollen. So it kind of looks like all these little floating feathers through the forest. It's very magical and beautiful. Nice. It sounds like a faith place. It's me. Of course it is a very paved place. I know they live all the Jack in the pulpits are up in the Trillium or blooming.

Autumn (5m 43s):
So it's beautiful. Little ferns are popping though. I have to say my editing. I cause you know, I'm editing our first book one and I'm trying to edit the last book of my face series and there's a lot of editing and I have to do it. It's not going as spectacular. I'd like, I need more hours during the day, but I'm still pushing through. I might end up pushing back. This is, I guess my first official worry announcement that I might end up pushing back the publication of my final book. Cause it's just, I actually need another chapter and it's just not where I want it to be. So I have to do-

Jesper (6m 20s):
That's understandable. You're editing two books at once, right? I mean, it's understandable. It's a bit much.

Autumn (6m 26s):
Yeah. Some other jobs on the side and yeah. Other things going on and I get my second vaccination and couple of weeks in a week or two. So once that happens, I I'm totally, after watching Adam go through his I'm expecting to be down for a day and I, my backup person, I was here for him, but he's going to be away from me. So it's just going to be me and the dog taking care of me. Yeah. The doc can bring you some, some rodents that he killed outside or something. Yeah. He won't be making me tea and bring me a hot water bottle at 2:00 AM. Like I did for my husband's. So I'm expecting, I might be down for a day or two. That's kind of slow me down more.

Autumn (7m 6s):
Darn it. And I've been going to, I remember I'm partially deaf. I've been getting that diagnosed a little bit more and dial it in to see if there's something that could be done. But the point mints take time too. So it's been a week of a month of lots of things going on. Yeah. Too busy, too busy.

Narrator (7m 26s):
A week on the internet with the Am Writing Fantasy podcast.

Jesper (7m 31s):
Speaking of being too busy over the past few weeks, we've also been on a number of podcasts talking about world-building haven't we, Autumn?

Autumn (7m 39s):
We have. It's been so much fun. It's world building and we've mostly been talking to a role-player games and games. Oh. So it's brought back some memories. I have not thought of in probably two decades. It's been wonderful.

Jesper (7m 54s):
Yeah. We've been on the world builders, weekly podcast, the tabletop totality and the game mastery podcast. So it's been really fun and I think also very different conversations compared to what we normally do on this podcast. So if you're interested, dear listener, we have added links to each of these interviews in the show notes. And well, then I would encourage you to go and check that out. If you interest us loads of world-building tips in those interviews.

Autumn (8m 25s):
It was, yes. World-building tips and some character tips and some writing tips and just a shout out to all three of them because awesome podcasts, awesome hosts. And it was so much fun to be on there and getting to talk to them. It was, it was as close as we can get to socialization in the last year. That's true. Yes. And, and also, I mean, just the whole role-playing community there and, and, and how, and to see astic, they are about world building and it makes it so much fun. Oh, that, yeah, I totally will. It's like if it was not, if it was more than my husband and I there's gotta be like groups that do this via zoom, it was, it would just be so much fun to do it again.

Jesper (9m 5s):
Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Okay. But before we close out this section here, I also wanted to use the opportunity to thank everyone who left a rating and review over the last month of the am, riding fences, you podcast, because we did have quite an uptake and that is highly, highly appreciated. Yes. Thank you so much. We, it helps the podcast helps people find us and it makes us feel loved. So we appreciate that. Absolutely. Yeah, because it's like helping other listeners. So when you leave a rating or a review, because then when people start typing in writing or something in their podcast app, then the podcast platform will actually show our show if it has some good ratings and enough reviews and so on.

Jesper (9m 52s):
So yeah. In other words, you were helping fellow podcast listeners. So if you haven't done so already, please don't stop now, go on and the, to your podcast app and leave a rating on review. It, it only takes like a second, but it really helps a lot. So if you already did it, thank you so much. And if you didn't just post a podcast here for 10 seconds and then leave the rating and review and then press play again. Sounds good. Thank you. And onto today's topic, I must admit that at first this sounded really easy, but then when I got into it, I did start wondering what you would come up with and then I just kept looking for something better.

Jesper (10m 42s):
But then when you then said in the beginning that you hadn't really prepared that much, then I feel a bit better.

Autumn (10m 48s):
Oh, glad that helped you. I'm sorry that I was competing with me. It was intimidating to you apparently. So, you know, I, I wanted to make this one easy for you.

Jesper (10m 58s):
Yeah bBecause people have been mean to me on YouTube comments and stuff like that, saying that the Autumn always wins and stuff. And so yeah, I have to, I guess up my game a bit, I see really trying to prepare and if I lose now, then I'm going to go and dig myself a hole outside or something.

Autumn (11m 18s):
That'd be horrible. Well, hopefully you were prepared. I'm sure you're going to totally blow me out of the water and you have to think of it. I it's sad. I'm coming from the state. So whenever someone says, oh, you're going to win. I hope they're not saying that just because I'm the girl. So, you know, I want to win honestly. And I did not work for this one, but it's funny. I started out by looking at this when I saw the topic like, oh, I have no idea what to do. And I started coming up with some and I did a little bit of reading and thinking and thinking about it. And I'm like, oh, got this one down. So, oh no, that's what I want you to say.

Autumn (12m 3s):
I felt intuitively this was my topic. Sorry.

Jesper (12m 7s):
So this will be fun. Yeah. Now I'm already feeling like maybe my list is not strong enough. I don't like that. You, you make me doubt myself.

Autumn (12m 16s):
I'm just helping you become a better, better at torturing your characters. I don't know. Is that though? Is that the outcome we're hoping for?

Jesper (12m 28s):
Yeah. At least I have five prepared and I have ranked them as well. So number five is the least bad. And then number one is the winner. That's going to take the take all. All right. You may be well, we'll have to see, I have mine ranked and they're ready to go. So I, who do you want to go first?

Autumn (12m 44s):
Do you want, do you want me to go first? Will that make you feel better? Do you want to go first and just totally amaze me? I think, I think I might.

Jesper (12m 57s):
Hm. Well, the thing is that because it's, it's a hard question because with number five, it feels like it's probably good to go first with number five, because then you're putting a bit of pressure on the other one. But then at number one, I feel like it's better to be last because then you can sort of finish it off on a big bang right there. Like this one is the best and you've finished off with that. So I have to flip a coin. What did we do last time? I think you started last time you started last time. Yeah, damn. Then I have to go first.

Autumn (13m 32s):
Okay. Your turn. Okay.

Jesper (13m 34s):
All right. Number five. And of course, keep in mind that this is the least worst of the worst. So it's only going to get better. All right. So if you feel like this is not that bad, then it's going to get a little, okay. All right. That's the way it's supposed to be. Yeah. So number five, let's call this character, Mr. B. All right. And you'll understand why in a moment. So Mr. B, he is very, very chatty. He is very outgoing and in general people really like him.

Jesper (14m 18s):
However, and here comes, he has like an involuntary habit. No, it's more than a habit. It's more like a compulsion that every time he greet somebody, he has to burp the person in the face. It's just me. Oh, I would. So back home. I wouldn't be friends with them. That's for sure. I can imagine. No, not every single, so he's very likable, but then he's, he stops off really bad every single time.

Autumn (14m 49s):
Yes. I feel like that that would be pretty bad thing to do to a character that would be mean to do to a character I have to. And you had to be actually worried because I'm funny, true story is my husband likes to whistle and it was probably five years into our marriage. When I realized what he likes to whistle is who's afraid of the big, bad Wolf. I think I finally stopped. I'm like, I am putting that into a story someday, because that is like the perfect serial killer. You have this nice guy. He's a good guy about town, but he whistles. Who's afraid of the big, bad Wolf and somebody finally put together. So, you know, I was a little scared there that you secretly knew that I like that one.

Autumn (15m 31s):
There was also, what was it? Was it in kill bill or which one was it? Where there was also somebody who walked around whistling all the time. He was actually pretty cool. He was like, I can't, I think, I think it might've been, but it's been awhile, but yeah, that is definitely a very annoying and trait. Yes. It's not like the worst of the worst, but it was also number five. So it's going to be a lot worse for the characters here, but, but it's sort of a, it's not throwing you a softball, but it's more like a curve ball. Right. So it's, it's a bit difficult, but not too hard. Yes. Let's see. I, and I think it's interesting because you did this by literally creating a character perspective.

Autumn (16m 14s):
And I did it more top level of as a writer, the worst things you can do to your characters, because I just love doing things to my character as I've just, I mean, that way. So you want to hear my number five? Okay. All right. I am. And this is, again, it gets worse from here, but I'm starting off pretty heavy hitting. And I'm just going to say killing off friends and family, especially in the first chapter of a book like that, it's all his friends and all his family doesn't have to be all about. I, it could just be just the parents or just the siblings or just the friends, but just that trope. And I put that as my number five, because that does like every Disney story ever.

Autumn (16m 57s):
And to me, it is so over done. And that's why I put it at the first spot, but it is also so hugely impactful to lose a family member or to lose a good friend. So that's why we put it there because it is just like gifting out your heart strings and you can relate to that. And it's horrible, but oh, we need to find something else to do that with. So that's my, that's my number five. Okay. Well it's, it's a good start. It's a good start. The, you have to remember, I just kind of spontaneously spontaneously made this list and like the process of an hour. Why cooking breakfast? Well, that, that can't be as an excuse either your list is good or it's bad and no excuses about that.

Jesper (17m 41s):
I was cooking breakfast while I was thinking about this. And while I was scrambling eggs, I was kicking, killing a family members. What a horrible breakfast. All right. All right. All right, well, let's hear your number for them. Okay. So number four, I was actually thinking for a while, if I should put some sort of torture on this list, but while that is a pretty terrible thing to do to a character, if you imagined that you would like in a dungeon and you're being tortured, it's probably, I mean, of course, unless you die, but then it's not mean to you anymore because then you're not alive.

Jesper (18m 22s):
So if you do live, then you are going to escape at some point, or maybe you're going to get the, let free at some point. And then the torture stops. So it's like, I started thinking, can I make something that is worth something you cannot escape? Okay. Something you cannot could you, can you guess what? That could be? Autumn? What can you never, ever escape death? Well, yeah, but if you die, if you're dead, then it's not mean to the character, but because then he's dead death. Other than death, can't escape, a physical harming someone physically like losing it all. Can you not escape that?

Jesper (19m 4s):
What kind of life are you living? I cut on how bad? Sorry I hit you. I cannot help it. Jeez. Okay. So let's hear it. What is yours? Well, you cannot escape sleep. Oh, okay. So every single time this character goes to sleep, he or she will have nightmares about that. Darkest fears. Very nice. I think that's good. Nice, nice. In the, in the horrifying sense, I guess if that makes sense. I think that that's pretty damn mean.

Autumn (19m 43s):
That is very mean it's actually kind of related to my number four. Imagine that us thinking along the same lines. Yeah. That never happened before. We've never come up with something similar. So you want to hear what my slightly related number four is. Okay. All right. So mine was instead of not just sleep, but being stalked by a monster or a curse or a raving hoard of insects or some such thing that hounds you. So you can't sleep for fear of it catching you can't sleep, you can't sleep. So cause if you sleep, it's going to catch you or that even when you're awake, maybe it's whispering dark visions or ideas to you. So you just, every time you want to sit down and relax or have a meal, it's just spurring you to always constantly feel like you have to run and be an emotion.

Autumn (20m 35s):
And then not saying a nervous wreck. Totally. And I'm not saying that this might kind of have stemmed from maybe a trip. My husband and I took to Labrador where the black flies were just torturous that I was constantly wearing this netting veil. So that even when I was eating or cooking, I was like, literally eating underneath this veil. I walking and pacing and basically it nearly broke me. I'm pretty tolerable, but I was ready to get on a plane and go home. So insects are some of the worst torture you could ever do. And, but not letting someone sleep and having that constant, like the buzz, the buzz buzz, buzz, you know, they're there and they're trying to bite you.

Autumn (21m 16s):
And it's just, you just don't even, you don't even need to have someone whispering to you. Just a hoard of massive insects is enough to kill, to drive your character insane. So yeah, that's my number. Yeah. Well, true story as well related to that, you know, with a bit already ordered, but the list of the stuff don't know it, but true story as well. We were in a, in a, is in, in Finland, in the middle of the forest and there was this pond that was supposed to fill with water, but this particular summer, it was so dry that it was just very, very shallow water in the pond.

Jesper (21m 54s):
And it has been like sitting there for months, I guess, you know, just shallow water, no flow through. No, it was just like an isolated pond, right? So there was no current or anything changing the water. So we was like the best mosquito nest you can imagine in the world. And it was like at this particular summer as well, just to make it worse was like the warmest that has ever been. We had like in Celsius a, I don't know what this is in fair Fahrenheit, but we had more than 30 degrees Celsius. So, and you're in the middle of a forest. There's no wind because you in the forest. And then you're sitting inside this cabin and it's incredibly hot.

Jesper (22m 36s):
And as soon as we step outside the door and I mean, as soon as within one second, you were completely covered in mosquitoes. They came from everywhere, like right at you. And it was, it was the worst, two weeks ever of a summer vacation. We sat inside this freaking cabin for two weeks and just, it was like sitting inside an oven. We were just sitting in there cooking and we couldn't go up because it was terrible. And then in the nighttime, when you could go out a bit, you were still going to get bitten like 20 times, but at least you could go out. So we did go out a bit when it was night, but this was also the year why I got so annoyed with mosquito repellent creams and stuff like that.

Jesper (23m 19s):
I was like, how to freaking, how, how are they allowed to sell this stuff when it doesn't work? You know, I just covered myself in it and it does getting bitten. So what's the point. I don't understand. But anyway, that was a complete side note, but that's okay. It actually made me realize that, you know, you're admitting my number four was awesome. So thank you. I'm admitting you on number four is really annoying. I don't know if awesome. It's going too far. Tomato, tomato. I have my interpretation. So, all right. What's your number three.

Jesper (23m 60s):
Okay. So this is also about fear. So we, before we talked about having nightmares about the darkest fears in number four. So now in number three, with fears, I was thinking what kind of fear would be really bad to suffer from? And there was of course, loads to choose from. And some of them would really make the character unable to function in society. But, but then it came to me. Oh, are you ready for this one? I guess, what is it? What if the character is afraid of himself? Oh, geez.

Jesper (24m 38s):
That's horrible. What if you're afraid of yourself all the time?

Autumn (24m 43s):
Like you're going to metastatic, are you afraid that you're like insane or a deranged killer? If you let yourself loose or a ticking time bomb. I mean, you just afraid what you're going to do next all the time. Oh, maybe you're going to kill somebody. Maybe you're going to hurt yourself. Maybe, maybe just going to sabotage yourself. You're just afraid all the time of yourself. That's just, you cannot escape yourself. That's really so horrible. Horrible torture for a character. How could you do that? Oh, that was easy. All right. Well that one is pretty. That would be it. I'm trying to think of how it would be to write the book, like what the character arc would be, but that's not go there.

Autumn (25m 27s):
Actually. I don't know how to do that. To me, it would be a bit like schizophrenia thing to read, like all the time, every chapter, the characters, just running around circles around themselves, unless you find out like, you know, it was a fear and planted it and actually he was amazingly good or would do something wonderful. But yeah, we won't go there. So that would be a diff a dark, dark story to read. Yeah. I feel like it. Yes. Yes. All right. So my number three is to take away the talent that whatever the character is, that is really how they define themselves. So like a swordsman would lose their arm or a maid would lose her magic or using it would cause pain or like an Archer, or if his musician like with a harp would lose their fingers.

Autumn (26m 16s):
And this would be, cause both psychological pain, which is good, but also physical pain. Because, you know, you would obviously I've gone through something traumatic to have this happen to you. And yeah, I will definitely say this one stemmed out of my own right link. Cause I definitely combined it with the character. I had that with memory loss because they were held captive by centuries. So I had a character that was caught, imprisoned, lost their memory because they were tortured, lost the ability to change their, use their magic. They were changed into a magical creature and every time magic happened around them, it caused them physical pain once they were free from their horrible monstrous form. So it's, it was a fun story to write for that.

Autumn (26m 60s):
Me, the character hates me still, but you know, we also have another character in, in our joint book that has lost his memory. Yes. That's also quite fun. It is quite fun. But I mean, to me, almost losing your memory is, is almost a salvation because you don't remember the dark things, but to simply lose whatever it is. If you define yourself as this math major, you're going to be this wonderful magic user and you lost the ability to cast magic or worse. It causes you physical pain. When anyone else uses magic, you'd have to move on. That is definitely a character. Or you have to find something other way of defining yourself or you're just going to be a horrible character or become the villain.

Autumn (27m 44s):
I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. What is west, is it west to lose your short-term memory or your long-term memory? I think long-term, to me, I would not want to. Cause you have, especially so many things you would define yourself. It depends on if you had a really bad experience that you want to forget, but I think I could handle a losing my short term over my longterm. So all the time when you're doing something, you're forgetting what you're doing. How many horrible? I don't want to lose my memory. be like the next one on your list. No, it's not.

Autumn (28m 24s):
No, it's not, but I don't know if number two.

Jesper (28m 27s):
Well, I'm gonna come back with a really annoying one in number one, because number two, it might not, it might be one of my weaker ones now. I think being afraid of yourself is worse than this one. Okay. So you should have switched them. All right. Okay. Should I switch them around? I won't judge. It's fine. I know you will. That's my role here. Yeah. Okay. But I think we need some sort of fantasy curse for this one to work. So imagine that we have liked the most handsome prince or the fairest princess the world has ever seen and then comes to wicked witch and Lisa curse. Well, that sounds very cliche already, but don't judge a book by its cover.

Jesper (29m 14s):
Well, okay. But this course is different because, because of this characters, very, very appealing looks, people are naturally drawn to them, but every time this character speaks to someone, they always end up either being rude or blurting out the person's secrets to everybody else. Oh, that would be, I agree. That should have been your number three, but that would be number three, right? Yes. That would be, it would be really a fun book to write. That'd be a fun character to have I've I've had a few slightly insane characters that do similar sort of things.

Autumn (29m 57s):
Cause they're a little, just touched a little off and I there's so much fun to write though, because they just do whatever the heck they want even. But I could see in this case, maybe they don't want to, and they're trying to control this. So this is like combining with a couple of years, you know, like trying to fearing, going to these like a ball where they're going to be the Belle of it. And they're so terrified at what they're going to do to make it all go wrong and they just can't stop themselves. So in that case, good. Number two, that would just be the anxiety of it would be oh horrible. It is horrible, but I'm not sure it's the worst thing you can do. I mean, well, okay. I imagine going through life that every time you talk to somebody, you are, you're either being rude or telling their secrets.

Jesper (30m 41s):
It's pretty nasty. That doesn't really mean you will not have very many friends. No, no. It wouldn't matter how pretty you are. They would, they would not be there to be your friends. And then if you had manipulative friends, they would only tell you secrets about themselves. That would not be true. It would make you look like an idiot. So yeah, you could actually use it in like political games or whatnot. You could tell the person something and then they will go and tell it to somebody else. And if the other person doesn't know that this person is well, actually no, that would work because the other person will know that this person always splits out secrets. So they will think it's correct.

Jesper (31m 23s):
Exactly.

Autumn (31m 23s):
Oh, I can have fun with master plotting. I think I should win just for coming up with a good story. I deal with it. No, no. Does not have rules go. I can't change the rules in the middle of the game. Why not? Oh, I'm a referee. That's okay. Oh shoot. He would be the referee. All right. So you're ready for my number to change the rules. I disagree. That's also in the rules that I'm the one who can change the rules. That's what the rules say. I think I've got to have to renew my reevaluate, my contract here. All right. Okay. Let's have you. Number two. My number two is to imprison a character, which we did talk about, but to not tell them what happened to their friends and family or possibly worse telling them different things.

Autumn (32m 14s):
So they don't actually know which is the truth and what has happened to their friends and family. So sort of like just coming in and be like, oh, well your wife is going to be executed tomorrow or your children or slaves in the ice minds. And so this place with the psychological, so they're in prison, they can't get out. And obviously they're in prison because they either lost a battle or they failed in some way. But so you have that psychological torture as well as being restrained. And to me, this to me is nothing worse than not knowing what has happened to someone you care about too, and have no way of knowing and not have someone toying with your mind about what might be happening to them. I just think that is literally, I think the worst thing I can imagine in this life is to care deeply about someone and not knowing where they are and what's happened to them.

Autumn (33m 2s):
Just be horrifying. And just imagine if you're the God or whoever it is that is telling the soup, how mean do you have to be to be able to do that to somebody that's just making up excuses, making up these stories about, oh yes, no, but this is, oh, did I tell you that? I actually meant this and oh, just the gut wrenching. This of it. Eventually, no matter how heroic this character was, I think that would just wear, wear them down, wear down their hope bit by bit and losing that hope and just being devastated. I think that's about, and that's my number two, but that's about the worst thing I can imagine ever doing to a character. I have to say.

Jesper (33m 41s):
Hmm. Okay. So you should have put it in. Number one. No, I have something else for number one. You just said it was the worst. I don't, but I have something else for number one. Oh my God. Well, okay. I have the absolutely best one for number one. All right, let's hear it. This one is going to bring me the victory and you'll have to admit it once you hear this one. Well, I will only admit it if it is true. And once I hear it, it is true. So let me start out by asking you this. Okay. What is like the worst song you can think of?

Jesper (34m 28s):
Oh, it's a small world after all. Okay. Well, so keep that in mind. All right. And I'm not saying that this one is going to be the most annoying song ever, but it's probably a bit close to it, but okay. Let me just play you a very short song. Clip to get you in the right. Have a sound clip. Okay.

Audio clip (34m 51s):
I've been married long time ago. Where did you come from? Where did you go? When did you come from? good

Autumn (35m 8s):
Stuff. Okay. So imagine you have something like that playing in your head constantly like forever. You can never stop it. It just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on forever. That would be, imagine that. Well, considering I have some bad tinnitus, ha I do. I have that all the time. It's horrible, but not cutting my jaw or something like a loop forever. I almost think cotton. I chose better than tonight. I remember it. There was, it was actually from a, a movie I'll assume it's based on a novel.

Autumn (35m 48s):
Cause all good movies are based on novels, but it was about a Russian astronaut or it was there talking about it. And there was this moment where they're saying, you know, the astronaut gets up there and they're up there for like in the space capsule. Can't move around. It's one of the first space flights. And all as I hear, like every few seconds is a bang and you have that for weeks on end and it's starting to drive this guy crazy and he can't go anywhere and you can't escape it. And the only way he could preserve a sanity was to embrace it and be like, every time I hear it, it means I'm still alive. It means the mission is still going on.

Autumn (36m 28s):
So I don't know. You would have to just like with my tonight, as you become, it becomes as mental thing where at times you can actually block it out because it is just going on and on. I think it's actually worst if it changes because whenever things change, then you notice it again. So if you have just like this weird random loop of sounds and gunfire, oh my God. I hate gunfire. So is all the other weird sounds that happen? I think that might even be worse than just the same song on repetition though. I have to admit it's a small world after all for 24 hours straight might be enough to make me go insane. That might do it. Yeah. That's pretty bad. It is pretty bad. I will say that.

Autumn (37m 9s):
That would definitely be fingernails on a chalkboard, which would be one of the sounds you could use to drive someone and say just on a loop, just don't know. Oh, that's just so total loop. So is it like if you definitely make yourself go deaf, would you still hear it? Yeah. Yeah. It's in your head. You hear it all the time. Even when you sleep, it's going on when you're trying to sleep you're mean I don't like that one. Yeah. You want to hear my number one? Yeah, I know. It's the list of the worst things you could do it over character. Yeah. So you know, my number one that is even worse than being tortured and not knowing what has happened to your loved ones.

Autumn (37m 54s):
Okay. What's that it is to not write the character story. I think that is the worst thing you can do to a character is to have this voice in your head that says, you know, right. We write the story, make me this fantastic character and you just don't do it. I just think that's horrible. Yeah. Okay. That's Metta. I feel like I like you're bending rules, but I understand what you're saying. The, I think I have just, I have elevated above the rules to a worst of more, a different plane of worseness.

Jesper (38m 38s):
Okay. You are so much inventing your own rules as you go. You think I play by anyone else's rules other than the ones I make up spontaneously? No, no, I get it. But this is the same thing. I sometimes say to my colleagues that it w when, if we have like a work meeting or something, it would be so much easier. If I can bring my referee yellow and red cards into the session, and then you get a yellow card for that goodbye. It will be somewhat each year. Well, you do you really want to kick me off the podcast.

Autumn (39m 19s):
Now think about that. The yellow card is just a sin bin, so it's just, you just get a timeout. I can do a timeout. You would have to use a lot of timeouts for me, for sure. I like my number one. I think it is the worst thing you could do is you have to tell your character story. If you have a character saying, write me, you need to do that. You need to go, right? Yeah. I still think mines is worse. The infinite loop of music. I still think it would be worse if it's changing. Sounds but sound torture is pretty.

Jesper (40m 1s):
It's used. It's pretty horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Do we need people to tell us who won here? I feel like our one for, for sure. This one you put on some really good ones I have to say, but I'm going to leave it up to the listeners so they should tell us what just won't concede will. No, I will not. And they should just refuse to concede. I do. They have to let me know if they think I broke the rules or if I just simply, you know, made a better set of rules. I'm just afraid that they're going to say yes. Oh, well, let's see. I think I have one, a lot of them. So maybe I will let you have this one because you did do the work while not making it just feels like a pity victory.

Jesper (40m 45s):
That's I don't want a pity victory that you're going to have to let the listeners decide. That's the only thing to do. Hmm. Okay. Well, dear listeners let us know in the comments who won this stuff. And if you feel like writing the autumn one, then just let us know if we don't get any comments. It's because I won. And if we do get comments, then it's also because I won that's that's cheating. I think you're making up the, what do you mean? I'm I'm just, well, okay. It's not a rule. It's just a recommendation. I'm just recommending people not to type if you wrote, if they think you won, I see how it is.

Jesper (41m 30s):
Well, I'm at least I'm, I'm at least an honest enough person not to create personas to go in and leave comments to say that I won. I'll be nice though. I do. I have a wrap-up for this wedding. Cause I was thinking, why in the world are we doing this for the podcast? But then I realized in general making characters suffer should do at least one of two. If not both of these, they should advance your plot or they should deepen or reveal something about your character. So this is in a way an inspiration list of if you're really easy on your characters or you feel like you're plotting or your character arcs, aren't going anywhere.

Autumn (42m 6s):
Review this list of 10 traits and see what you can do to help your characters. Go suffer a little bit and grow the point is growing and overcoming these fears.

Jesper (42m 20s):
Okay, indeed. So next Monday we are back to some more serious topics. When we discuss some tools for authors, namely book sales tracker.

Narrator (42m 31s):
If you like, what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at aApple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.