The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 67 – Should You Publish Through IngramSpark?

Hardbacks, personalized paperbacks, and distribution to bookstores, why wouldn't you want to publish with IngramSpark?

Jesper and Autumn cover what IngramSpark is, the many, many options it offers, and, of course, the cons of why this platform might not be for you.

Plus, a discussion on if IngramSpark is an alternative to KDP - can you choose one or the other, or should you be using both?

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Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello. I am, Jesper. This is episode 67 of the amwritingfantasy podcast. And, uh, well autumn you brought up this very interesting topic to talk about today, asking whether or not it's worth it to publish through IngramSpark so I'm looking very much forward to your thoughts on this.

Autumn (52s): I had to reread it. It, it's a fun logic puzzle that I got so excited about and then kind of had a reality shock. But we'll get to that in a bit for now. Yeah, we'll get back to that. But, so how are things over in Denmark? It's am. I know we're recording this a few weeks before it gets published. And you know, the world's going a little crazy right now, so I hear you guys have, school's canceled so your kids are home and it's just crazy, it sounds like.

Yeah, it's a, it's like a Corona virus in everything right now. So, uh, yeah, yeah. As you say, we are recording a bit in advance here, so who knows once this episode goes out, if, if things has calmed down on that.

Jesper (1m 41s): But honestly, I, I have a feeling that we're on the start of things rather than at the end of things, but let's see. But yeah, indeed, schools are close, so the kids are home, they'd dare being taught remotely. Um, so this, the teachers are uploading assignments for them every day. So they do that and then they call the teachers and stuff like that.

Autumn (2m 2s): So, yeah. And I don't have any matches to referee either because everything has been canceled. So yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's pretty much locked down mode. I would say it's probably safer for, you know, everyone, especially those who are truly high risk. It's best to slow the spread of this thing. But yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I was feeling really bad for the beer company. Creates the Corona. It's so weird.

I mean, people don't want to buy Corona piece. I don't understand. I understand that one either. ASCO has nothing to do with the beer. I'm not crazy about Corona beer, but it makes me want to go buy one just because it has nothing to do with the fear.

Jesper (2m 47s): That was so weird. But uh, yeah, that was a slightly to whatever. But guess what? I guess what I could say though is because of all this Corona stuff, then I don't have to, you know, bring the kids to school. We don't have to go to soccer practice and all those things. So I've had a bit more time on my hand. So that's resulted in a few things actually.

Autumn (3m 8s): Uh, we got the first of all, the plotting of our next series of the first book done. Yes, we do. It's, so, that's pretty cool. That is really cool. We've made some good use of our extra time for sure. Yeah, indeed. And the also, I'm pretty much a ready to start recording the self publishing publishing success course in, in the next few weeks. That's fantastic. You're ahead of me.

I've got to catch up and finish my, get my world-building modules recorded and everything else. But yeah, I don't think either of us will have run out of anything to do, whether we're quarantined for a week or a year. I think we could volunteer for a Mars mission and we would still be working by the time we got there and back.

Jesper (3m 59s): Yeah. The, the problem with us is that every time we finish something, we think of three more things to add to the end of the list. So it's like a never ending grind.

Autumn (4m 7s): We were always fighting a Hydra and finishing off ahead and getting three more in response.

Jesper (4m 13s): Yeah. But it's okay. It's okay. Yeah. And then by the way, it's, will I, I'm halfway through the script for the cost on using email lists as wetland goodness. So I hope. Yeah, I'm trying to get that one finished. And then once I'm done with the script for that, uh, then I can send you

Autumn (4m 30s): that to you and then I can start recording the self publishing success course instead. That is amazing. You're blazing ahead. I try to hear tastic well, I had some drive time and am some take care of some business times, so I've definitely not, and plus I was building the cabin so I always feel like I'm so far behind. But uh, the cabin building goes on quarantine or no, because, well, it's the house I'm living in, so like I did. But yeah, we snuck off to Maine to pick up our rooftop tents and a few other odds and ends that we had left behind up here for the winter.

And now the, our land cruiser is outfitted that if we wanted to escape to the far North and hide out in the Tundra, we'd be all set. But we just plan on going back to Vermont and hopefully, uh, riding out the rest of the coronavirus there and hoping that the world doesn't get too crazy or reminds me daily of what I was researching my post-apocalyptic story. I'm friends with my enemies that series. And it had a two major pandemics, uh, that led up to the first book.

And so I did a lot of pandemic research and a lot of virus research and, um, yeah, it's watching this play out is like, Holy crap, this is a, this is too real. It's very strange. Yeah. It's, uh, well it's, we, we don't know how to deal with this stuff.

Jesper (5m 60s): Right. I mean, that's, I think that's, that's part of the lipid hope. Hopefully. Hopefully it won't be too bad. I hope. Let's see. Um, but wasn't there something when you're supposed to go to some convention or something as well? Yes. Well, actually I was supposed to be going this weekend that we just went through. I was supposed to go to a paddlers rendezvous. My husband and I are both am, canoers and kayakers.

Autumn (6m 22s): We've done a lot of, uh, paddling on our journeys and traveling and actually he just picked up 105 year old canvas and wooden frame canoe. It's a classic. It's gorgeous. It needs to be fixed up. Of course everything we pick up needs to be fixed. That's just our life. Everything we own is a project that, uh, it's, uh, what's supposed to have this rendezvous and that was canceled and actually that's why we've come up to get the rooftop tent. We were going to camp there, but we decided to come up anyway and get our supplies.

But yeah, as Vermont am they're supposed to be a scifi and fantasy expo at the end of April, which is really close to when this will be released. And at the moment it's still scheduled to go, but I don't know, the CDC just recommended, you know, no gatherings larger than 50 people and they're supposed to be 3000 and 5,000. Yeah, I think they're going to end up having to cancel it. And honestly, at this point, if I could, uh, get a refund, I'd probably just cancel it myself. But you know, here's the hope of the world is much happier and healthier on April 25th otherwise, yeah, there was the one where I sent you some paper back books.

For wasn't it? It was. I think we're going to have to hold onto them until it's rescheduled. There will be another fantasy expo to take them to. Yeah, I guess so. Oh, we week on the internet with the amwritingfantasy podcast. So I actually wanted to highlight a post that you shared on petrol on a autumn. Oh really? Hopefully it's not the same one I was going to talk about. I don't know. They shouldn't let you go first. We are professional podcasters.

Here's a, we are very well coordinated and we know what the other one is going to say once we approved. Oh, was it two episodes ago when I actually mentally figured out the next bullet on your lists. So I think that was more coincidental than anything else. No, it was the one about foreshadowing. Oh no, that isn't the one I was going to mention. So what were you going to say about foreshadowing? No, it w it was more like, you know, you went through in detail how to use foreshadowing correctly in that post.

And uh, I just thought it was, uh, it was very valuable to, to share detailed posts like that we try on for people on the email list.

Jesper (8m 44s): We also try to send them some, some detailed advice on this and that sometimes it's marketing, sometimes it's, it's writing. But I really liked these posted you do on, on, on the writing style stuff, on petrol on it. I think they're really good.

Autumn (8m 59s): Q I should have so much fun and sometimes I really have to cut myself off because they get a little long. So, um, I do like to know that they're appreciated by the students and by my part writing partners, so that's awesome. Yeah, I think they're great. Well, which one were you going to mention? Done? Oh, I loved am. Zaid had mentioned it's am I'm on this, this tips, it's a long story about how I have this sheet of 10 to plotting tips that I'm going over and I'm, one of the ones that, that you mentioned was foreshadowing.

And the other one that I just did a little while ago was plots of individual characters. And so Zaden I got into a conversation and I just love that he came back with am. He gave me an update. He said just wanted to update and say that I've now written a really cool sequence that starts with the character telling the main character. He can clean up his own mess and walk away from the quest. Uh, it's created some really cool character moments for several of the questers and given an opportunity to really show the extent of the main character's flaws. Huge. Thanks for posting this.

And it's like, damn, that's awesome. So I'm so happy to know I helped to add to someone else's book and create this like pivotal scene that's gonna shred the main character. And I just excited and I'm glad I got to help someone. So it's been a fun sequence of a tips to post, even if it came out of a long ago class that was completely useless. I have finally resurrected. I'll point to this class. Yeah,

Jesper (10m 30s): it's funny sometimes. Uh, you find some, I also found some, some older notes in, in, in my cabinet. The, uh, I think it was yesterday something I thrown into it and I never thought I was going to use again. But then it was like, Hey, I think I have a use for this now. It's quite fun, but the hoarding is not a good thing though. I guess after I'm done with these 10 tips, I will burn them down. So, so that's, uh, you know, I know that every content creator always keeps saying that they rely on the support from places like Patrion.

Uh, but that, that's actually because it's true. Yeah. Podcast is a free medium and that's cool. You know, I like it that way. I love listening to podcasts myself and because they have free, that makes it really, really accessible. Um, yet at the same time, especially, I guess we know that modern than the listeners because we spent the time creating these episodes every weekend. It does, it does take up a lot of time. Um, and that is also cool because, you know, we, we choose to do that.

So that's okay. And we like helping people and we enjoy sharing so, so that's all good. But, um, I do want to say for those who already are supporting us on Petra on a, you know, huge thank you for it really does make a difference. Um, and for those who are not yet supporting us and listening, if you want to support with just as little as a dollar a month and please do understand that it actually is something that we really appreciate. Uh, so check that link in the show notes, uh, and at least take a look at the reward that we're offering to support us that, you know, it makes us so happy.

Autumn (12m 18s): It does. And it really does make a difference. I mean, we pay for the hosting, we pay for websites if it goes really far to making this actually stay up and running. So publishing with IngramSpark, I tried to pull some notes together as well.

Jesper (12m 40s): A autumn of stuff, but, but I, but I think it's, well probably you know, in full transparency we are not currently publishing our stuff with IngramSpark so I think this is more like a conversation about maybe the pros and cons or what to think about. So I guess the listener can more use it as inspiration for, I dunno, their own decision making process I guess.

Autumn (13m 3s): Yes, absolutely. We're on the outside looking in and that's sort of how the question came up. And author I was working with that helped format their book and do some cover work for them. Said they actually got a rejection to have, uh, a book signing event at a local bookstore because they weren't published with Ingram sparks. And that led to this huge research of why, why is an Amazon good enough? What's the big deal about Ingram sparks? And I got so excited about Ingram sparks.

I'm in love with what you can do there. However, I'm still not published on IngramSpark and we'll get to why before we get to the end of this episode.

Jesper (13m 43s): Yeah. In India we have already discussed, uh, at some point in the past at a four hour joint fiction books that we want to go to IngramSpark. So, uh, uh, but I think it's going to be interesting to just have a conversation about it and what does it mean then because it's not S yeah. Also the research side. It's not as easy as it may seem, but maybe we should stop by what is IngramSpark that's just what I was thinking.

Autumn (14m 8s): So some people are not going to even have heard of this because it's not as well known as like Amazon, but Ingram sparks would you say it's like, it's definitely a distributor, but basically it's sorta like a distributor. Yeah, it's, it's like a, an online self publishing company. Basically. It is, it is, is, um, it's just different. It's, it is a direct competitor to Amazon, which creates some conflict of course. But it has a few things about it that are the reason that, you know, bookstore is like it better as a distributor then, you know, getting paperbacks through Amazon and it offers, you know, it does offer very similar things to publishing on Amazon.

You can eBooks, you can get paperback books, but what's really cool is you can get hard back books. So this is the only platform out there right now. Whereas an indie author, you can get a print on demand hardback. So if that doesn't make you tingle because you want to see your books hardbacks that might be enough to make you want to go and check this out.

Jesper (15m 13s): So yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, and they, they distribute globally of course. Uh, and uh, I, I co during my research here earlier today, I saw that the, their global distribution network is actually one of the largest in the world. Um, it serves more than 29,000 book retailers worldwide. And, uh, that includes physical bookstores I should set, but also libraries. Um, so using IngramSpark is actually what can get your book into physical bookstores and libraries.

Where are the self publishing platforms actually has no access. Correct. Um, so that, that's pretty cool. It am and of course a IngramSpark and also publish to all the regular online places. Like I think even the distribute to Amazon as well. Uh, and you can get into all the other regular stores as, as, as you might want to. Um, but honestly I would not go through IngramSpark for that. Uh, I usually personally at least I usually go direct to Kobo, direct to Amazon, direct to Google.

And then I just use draft two digital to reach all the other online stores. That's pretty easy that way. So, but at least IngramSpark to basically help you reach the bookstores, uh, and also get that hot copy available on Amazon because it syncs up on Amazon as well. So if people are browsing for your books on Amazon and they click on the title once, you know, once they get into the, basically where the book description as well, that that's usually where Amazon didn't shows you the different formats. And if you have an IngramSpark hot copy, it will appear there.

Just like if you have an audio book appears in a paper back appears and so it's just, it just becomes one of the formats on the uh, on the Amazon platform. And I think that that is, that is the key thing there because if it didn't then I would say it's probably pointless but because it syncs up like that then it's, that's pretty damn cool.

Autumn (17m 15s): It is really cool. And I mean there are some tips, I mean you could go Ingram sparks and not do Amazon and have it pushed to Amazon through Ingram, but they do say that Amazon will, not purposefully supposedly, but they will see that it's coming from an Alto side distributor and they could have a really long ship date. They could list your book is out of stock for your paper. So they do say that if you're going to do Ingram, you should also sort of like what you're saying, do Amazon as well.

It should be a hybrid system of both because otherwise the way it's listed in Amazon is not, it doesn't look quite as true, but that's because of they say Amazon. It's like saying, well, you know, they don't know the distribution. Occasionally Ingram sparks gets overwhelmed and they have slow shipments and you know, they say some things like that. Yeah, well I don't think it's like,

Jesper (18m 13s): I don't think it's like a, let's say a conscious decision because it's a competitor that Amazon does like that. But honestly I think it's just because Amazon cares a lot about the user experience and the customer experience. And I think that they just take on purpose a pessimistic view on delivery times because they don't want to disappoint people. Like, uh, okay. It says I should be getting in two days. And then they order it and then once basically, so, okay, let me start a bit different. So let's say, let's say you go on and you want to buy the hard copy.

So normally the way I researched it at at least says that what can happen then is that when you click on the hot pack, it'll say out-of-stock like just said autumn. And that's because it comes from IngramSpark. So Amazon has no idea how long it's gonna take. But then as I researched the least, as soon as you then buy it and in hard copy, then you get the confirmation email and then it syncs up with IngramSpark and then you usually getting a pretty, you know, pretty good delivery date on it.

But it's just the initial overview that Amazon gives you the extra, they're trying to be pessimistic on purpose to set your expectations. Well and then over-perform right. So I, I honestly don't think it's because Amazon wants to make you.

Autumn (19m 32s): No, I don't think so. I think that's the case. But it does. It's something authors should know. And that's why a lot of people do. If they're going to go IngramSpark cause they also go as a hybrid. But I do, unless you have something else, I want to get his share. Like why I got so excited about IngramSpark and why it's useful. The biggest things. So this question had come in from someone who wanted to do a book signing and the bookstore was said, yes, we would love to, you know, it was someone from the state. The book was doing well, so they were the local author. They were like, this is great, but you need to put your book at Ingram sparks.

We don't order from Amazon. And so I had to do some investigative research on why it was an interesting, you know, why this dynamic. And so what I found out is that for an individual buyer paying full price for something on Amazon, the paperbacks are returnable for 30 days. But something like Barnes and Nobles, uh, this was a Barnes and Nobles, I was willing to do the signing. They're looking for a wholesale cost that is also returnable. Yeah. And so just like, you know what we've been discussing publishing with income SPARTS but so that's why they want to do it.

They can go and get a wholesale cost order, a whole bunch of books, and if they're not sold during your event, they can send them back. So you know, that sounds on the surface really a good deal. But there's some really interesting side effects of this that you have to be careful of because it turns out there's all of these returned fees that if you don't have your profile set up, you can see this big chunk, like one month you get a spic chunk where people, you know your book, wherever you're gonna go do your book signing by as a whole bunch of your books and then the next month or returning them and suddenly your account's going into the negative that comes back on you and your royalties.

And that's something you gotta be careful of if you do sign up with Ingram sparks, is that you check, you know, the return policy you set up. And depending on what return policy is set up is whether or not bookstores are going to go and wholesale your book.

Jesper (21m 42s): Yeah. But do you decide or you decide that yourself, the return policy, don't you?

Autumn (21m 46s): You do. You there's like, you know, there's standard ones you choose from and yeah, so there's like a choice of three or four, but you do have to make sure it's not something you should just push through. There's actually a very good reason about why you should choose one versus the other. And to really think about the cost because there is some restocking fees and other fees that can come out. So keep that in mind if you do sign up for it.

Jesper (22m 13s): I think it's just part of the game when you're dealing with bookstores, you know that that's how they operate. Uh, so yeah, it's just, it's something you have to accept in this case. Right. But, but on the other hand, I think you could also argue that for the average indie author isn't that much of a problem. I mean, if they, if they sent back five copies, yeah, okay, fine. I mean, if you're really an indie author who's selling like $4 million of books a year and then, okay, you can properly handle it anyway.

Right? But for for the rest of us human beings, you know, if, if we get five books returned about a month, I mean, okay, fine, or even 50 or whatever. But then it's also because you have to sales. So you should be able to cover, I mean, unless you run out and spent all the money, all the royalties right away, you can just transfer it back. Some of the royalties.

Autumn (23m 6s): I would hope so. And I would hope if you have another book signing, you know, it'll all come out in the wash, the people ordering them for the next event and the other ones, you know, returning them and that could work out. And I did truly coached the one author I was working with and I'm like, just check instead of going through the expense and we'll get to that about what Ingram sparks costs instead of going through the expense and you know, getting everything published over there. Why don't you see if you could, you can be your own wholesaler. You order them from Amazon, you let them buy them from you or buy only the ones that people sell and you know, promise to take back all the ones that they don't sell.

You know, ask. It doesn't hurt. So if you have a local bookstore, there's no reason you couldn't at least approach them saying, Hey look, I know Amazon doesn't do this, but what if I do it for you? Because obviously as an author you're probably going to go to another event and you're going to want some paperbacks of your own. You know, if you can work out to be your own distributor as you go to some of these events, you might be able to get into a few places that only would let you get in otherwise if you didn't grow up in sparks. Okay.

Jesper (24m 12s): Yeah, there was one thing that I'm curious about to be honest and because since this is a print on demand service, which means that the, they only print the books when they are ordered and then then they shipped them out. So, but because of the return policy, I'm quite curious what happens then. So when somebody returns the books is, since it's print on demand, they don't really have any stock

Autumn (24m 35s): or something like that. But that's one of the choices. There's one of the choices. The cheapest is basically to have them destroy it. And I think that it only costs you a $3 fee. Um, wasting the rainforest for nothing. Yes. There's other ones where you do say, no, no, you, you must keep that in the next time I am. Someone wants to buy it, you pull it. But that costs you a lot more money as a return. I think it's like $10 a book versus a $3 for destroy it now book.

So those are the, yeah, if you're agreeing conscience, this is a tough

Jesper (25m 10s): am. So that's what I, I've, I take the environmental stuff quite serious.

Autumn (25m 18s): We all should. Yeah, that's, that's one of the tough ones. And I will say though, there are some neat things that you can do with their print services. They actually have a personalization that they do with their print on demand. And I think this is so kind of cool. So if you had someone like when a giveaway and you wanted to actually print something in the book, you know, you'll be a print of your signature or a print of like, Oh, thank you so much for your support.

Jesper (25m 46s): If you're doing a, a truly personalized maybe to someone who was your mentor, you can actually have that printed in your book for only a dollar and just that one copy. Isn't that kinda cool though? That is, that is cool to be honest. So it's not quite as cool as hand touching it and maybe writing it. But if with this, you know, sending around the world and everything else, it's kind of cool to print it in there.

Autumn (26m 10s): A big personal thank you to someone. She was getting a book.

Jesper (26m 16s): Yeah, that, that is pretty cool and that's a dollar is pretty, that's just cheap so that's fantastic. Yeah, because on Amazon, when you're sending somebody a gift to somebody, you can also add like a gift, a notice or you know, I, I don't know if it's a small card or whatever it is that they put with it or if it's just a a pizza, but it's not in the book. It's sort of an Iowa in the packets. Just a, there's like a slippage slippage in India or something with the text

Autumn (26m 44s): you wrote on it. That it, that is pretty neat as well. But it for sure, I mean printing it in the book, so like a hardback copy of your book bound with some thank you message to someone that's amazing for a dollar. It's only costing you an extra dollar on top of the regular printing fee. I just think that just, I want to do that so badly just to say thank you to someone. But yeah, so that is one of the really cool services they offer. And like you said, IngramSpark is also a whole book publishing thing.

So if you wanted to go whole hog Ingram sparks, they have editing, formatting book covers, they truly can do it all for you if you want to pay the fees of course. But it is all in one stop shop. So that's kind of, you know, if you're really feeling it out and wanting to do a very professional level, they do offer it all right there in one website and it's one that's been vetted, tried and true. So you know, you're getting a quality product at the end. So that's kind of a nice thing to know too. Yeah, absolutely.

And I also read somewhere that the, if you're dealing with colored printed books, um, like for example, my map making focus incredibly expensive to um, to, to print with Amazon.

Jesper (27m 59s): That's also why to pay for the paper bag colored book is so high. It's because the printed cost I insane. Yes. I, I read somewhere at, at the colored print books are actually cheaper in the actual, on the cost side if you do it with IngramSpark compared to Amazon that I hadn't seen, but I would believe it because I think they're better set up for it where there's less color books being printed through Amazon.

Autumn (28m 23s): And I also have heard the paper quality through Ingram sparks is much better. So you're going to get a thicker paper and that might be why they can handle the color. So I know a lot of people who are doing am like coffee table books, like paperbacks, you know the books you would see like hardback photo books. They're going through Ingram sparks. If they're not doing something that is specifically designed for photograph heavy jobs because it just doesn't work well with Amazon because you know, if people remember KTP in the coloring book phase, for craze that was going on, I remember some people were getting am KDP or CreateSpace coloring books and they would have something printed on both sides.

But you'd go to use your colored pencils or your marker and it would bleed through to the other side because those pages we're just not set up for such a media being used on. Um, no, I can see that, but, but at least for you know, the quality of the color in the KDP paperback books are absolutely fine. Oh, they have nothing to say about that.

Jesper (29m 21s): Absolutely fine. Um, but it's just more, the cost of the printing is so high. Did you have to set your sales price pretty high as well? Um, so if it's cheaper with the IngramSpark then I can certainly see some great uses for that as well. If you are having books with lots of pictures, our color images in them then that, that's amazing.

Autumn (29m 42s): Yeah, that would be, I never did double check that, but I do think I could see it being cheaper. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there were some costs as well that I think we need to touch upon. Yes. And that's, that's sort of the issue I guess because it comes down to setting up your book where you know KTP, you go and you upload your ebook and it's free. You can do your paper bag if you know what you're doing, you basically uploaded and it's free what the cost comes out in your royalties.

With Ingram sparks, there's not only the royalties, but there is also a fee for setup, which is a bit weird. I don't quite understand why. Well they also say some of the fee is for hosting the file on their servers, which I guess there's a part of me who's like that is a cost. I mean server space. Think of Google with how big their servers are all over the world. Amazon infant, they don't chaps for it. No, don't give him any ideas.

You're listening to this. They are adult. Just busy. Yeah, don't listen to them. You know when I first saw the fee, um, I wasn't that a appalled. So it's $49 for ebook and paperback or if you just want to do one or the other, it's $49 for a paperback and $25 for just the ebook so you can, you know, $49 that is not a big deal. And when I saw that, I'm like darn it. That is it. I am doing Ingram sparks because I just think I want to be able to distribute my books.

I read everything I read said there's no, no reason not to do this. But then I found that cat just reading for the kicker, I've found the catch and the reason I am still sitting here and haven't touched Ingram sparks to publish with Ingram sparks, you need an ISBM. You need to come in holding an ISP again and you need a unique one for every format. So if you're doing you book paperback and hardback, that's free ISBNs.

That's, Oh it is. Yeah, but, but I guess you could just publish the ebook and a paperback with Amazon KDP and then just do the hotbed for IngramSpark and then use one ISP and couldn't you? You could. But then, I mean to me the really the beauty of IngramSpark is using it for the paperback distribution because then bookstores might pick it up. That's the only reason they're going to get it is through IngramSpark. So that's probably a hardback and a paperback. So you'd probably be doing too, right?

Yeah, that's true. So I mean, and I was looking at it so you can buy 10 ISBNs for tune $295 so that makes it 29 50 each, which is not that bad. So plus that, plus the $49 it's, you know, if you're doing all three formats, it's $137 50 cents each. Or if you're not going to do, if you're only gonna do two of them, it's $110 each. So you know, $110 a book, plus you lose, you know plus then you get your royalties bag.

But they're obviously taking a cut there every time something sold because they have the printing fees and Oh, I don't know what EBAC, I still wonder the electron fees with eBooks, but we won't go there. So 110 for yeah, it's not too bad. So if you were going to do use all 10 10 ISBNs, let's just say you're just going to do paperback. So 10 books with 10 ISBNs, that's $785 for 10 bucks. And that's what's getting me because you know me, I'm prolific and I haven't done this yet.

So if I were going to get my 14 fiction books and my two nonfiction books set up to do this, I would be paying about $1,760 if I was going to do two formats. Yeah, for sure. It does her until I was trying to rationalize, you know, like okay, what if I just did paper backs and that's like 70 want to do the hard copy. That's the whole point. Oh it is. You can just keep doing Katie for paper back at the end of the day.

The true and so, yeah, I mean to get it set up for, you know, a trilogy for two formats, it's $330 or I have am six books written in the same world. That would be 660 bucks. And if you don't want to do just one at a time, you just want to go and do it. So I just still waiting for everyone who in quarantine to go buy my books so I can go to afford to do this. But it does add up quite a lot.

And that's what I think is the kicker. I was so excited at that $49 I mean that's a lot, but it's not a lot. But then when you start picking up too bad ISBNs, I mean, yeah, I've always had a problem with the eye. You go back to, I believe it's episode 41 where we talked about ISBNs and yeah, it was episode 41. So go back there and check that one out. And you can have the whole conversation on ISP if you should be using free ones.

Um, we won't recover it here, but you and I are both like, eh, I'm ESPNs we use the free ones and now suddenly it's like, Oh, I have to go buy them for this. Oh, I don't, yeah, I'm just, I mean of, of course you have the problem if you're looking to am to publish with IngramSpark when you have a big back catalog, then you have a problem there, right?

Jesper (35m 20s): Yes. If you do it as you go one book at a time, then it's manageable for sure. I mean, if you buy the 10 ISBNs for two 95 to 195, I should say. Um, then of course 295 that might hurt for something, but it's not, it's not that bad, if you know what I mean.

Autumn (35m 41s): It's doable. Yeah. It's just be about less than your editing costs. I mean it's not outrageous. We just covered in editing costs. So a couple episodes ago. So yeah, this is, that is a reasonable price that you're going to spend on your books. Yeah. So it's certainly doable. Um, I also read somewhere that the actual uploading process is supposed to be a pain.

Jesper (36m 4s): I don't know if that's still the case or if that's like old information that it used to be a pain and it's not any more, but at least there's a few different places on the internet where people are explaining how it's, it's an, it's, it's a bit annoying because you know, when, when we come from KDP on Amazon normally it's so incredibly easy. Oh, it is. Um, it's a ticking few box, uploading your file, uploading a cover and setting a price and then you're pretty much good to go. You wait like less than 24 hours and then it's online.

It's amazing. But I don't know, at least I've not tried it in myself. I've said in the beginning, but at least what I got from the research, it sounds like it's, it's a bit cumbersome to go through the uploading and publishing process with the IngramSpark, but I'm not sure.

Autumn (36m 54s): Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. I haven't done it myself, but it is an older website, so it's an older platform where Amazon's constantly renewing and tweaking and correcting their code. They don't think have the quite the same level of money going into, you know, updating their area and updating how they do things. So I think it's a little bit older and I honestly, I didn't research it because I mean I use vellum for all of my formatting and I don't know if they're binding standards of all of that is the same as KDP.

I know I've done a few covers that have been used on Ingram sparks and the requirements are similar, but they're not the same. So I wouldn't be surprised if something in the, in even just the uploading what's required. Obviously you'd need a PDF, a for if you're doing, I think it's an epoch for the ebook, but you need a PDF for the print version. And so if the binding sizes in the margins are a little different and it's not something I can tweak on vellum, that's going to be another hurdle for me to get through because I'm, I love vellum and that's how I'm doing it.

Because I can format my ebook and my paper back and everything all at once with just one shot. And that saves so much time.

Jesper (38m 5s): Yeah. And if there's anybody from IngramSpark listening to this podcast and uh, you guys, we are paying as you are the only distributor who takes money from us for the upload. So fix your upload plus if that is indeed a problem anymore, which I don't know this, fix it, that's your, you're chatting us for the upload.

Autumn (38m 26s): So it should be simple and easy. Hey, I'll even take it one step further. If there's anyone from Ingram sparks listening, uh, get in touch with us and we'll do an interview and we can talk about, you know, how this process works. And that would be really actually kind of fun. I'll host it before it comes with a warning that I will ask questions about why you haven't fixed it yet. I'm prepared to answer that question. All right. But to be fair, we'll have to upload a book and make sure it's as bad as they say. Just, you know, we'll have this, we're just going on here and say, now we're just going on a rent like a everybody else.

That's all right. But you have to say what they do. The fact that they do distribute that bookstore is, you know that they offer this return policy even though they shred books and please, please do so in an environmentally friendly, compostable manner.

Jesper (39m 15s): Um, yeah, I don't know what, I don't know what's worse, worse to the environment, to be honest, if it's stretched us reading the book or having big warehouses, I'm not quite sure what it is, to be honest. Honestly I don't know either. But if they're composting it, it's okay. That's returning it to the earth and that's fine. But if they're not okay, Oh, I got all the ink. I still know of it's biodegradable.

Autumn (39m 37s): There are good inks. I'm just hoping that we moved to, I'm thinking the binding, the chemicals, the printing comp. I don't, now that I'm thinking about this, I don't want to know how unhealthy it is to print a book. I might have to go back to on the eBooks just for which should never have started talking about wondering what my footprint is in the world and I'm thinking, okay.

Jesper (39m 59s): Yeah, it's horrible. There was, there was what, one other kink that I came across. I think this might be applicable, but uh, I'm curious what you think, but what if, if you have an ebook, let, let's say you have an ebook of it. You have it published via KDP and you have it enrolled in Kindle unlimited. Oh, I think that the hot back copy from IngramSpark would be breaking the exclusivity agreement with Amazon, wouldn't you think so?

Autumn (40m 31s): No, I do not. I think the KTP is only on the KDP select is only attributed to the electronic, the ebook because you're allowed like, but when creates space was its own company. You could still do a create safe space paperback, but be in KDP select with your ebook. I think the KDP select is only eBooks.

Jesper (40m 54s): Hmm. Okay. That was my understanding of this. I went from Amazon listening. Please let us know, but I'm pretty sure that this is worth checking. Yeah, for sure. Uh, I, I'm a bit, you might be right, but I'm, I'm just doubting a bit whether or not this is OK. Uh, but, uh, but maybe I'm wrong, but it at least something to think about. I would say. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, again, for an author question, somebody who was going to upload and format, we got into a discussion about paper backs and I'm pretty sure I looked it up and the paper, okay.

Autumn (41m 27s): There's still distributed Amazon distributes to your extended network, even if you're on KDP select am. And that was fine even when it was created space. So I'm pretty sure that that's they're separate entities still that the KDP select only applies to your ebook, but right. We can try to look it up and maybe am put it in the garbage. Some of the, some of the, maybe I listen to no. So actually, so they can, they can reply with a common and that'd be fantastic. Straight here. Yes. Someone else who is on top of these things and loves research, that'd be fantastic.

Yeah. Or if you have a horror story, please let us know.

Jesper (42m 4s): Yes. So I don't know ma. Maybe at least from my point of view, in conclusion, um, I think it is IngramSpark is absolutely great for hard cap hard-copy books and to get into bookstores and libraries. And what I would also say is that when you get to your book page on Amazon, for example, if you can be available in all the formats, so you have an ebook, you have a paper back, you have a hard copy and you have an audio book, if that's possible for you. I mean, of course I do know all of that comes with costs, but if it's possible and you have a professional creative cover and of course you have your book fully edited and all that, basically your book will be indistinguishable from something random house has published or something.

Right. It looks like a hundred percent professional publishing house has published to your book. To me as an indie author, that's what I want. Right? I don't want the reader to be able to tell any difference whatsoever.

Autumn (43m 2s): No, I think that's true and I think it does give you that really that high level of professional shine though for some reason when you were talking about, you know, making it professional and having it looks so perfect. Reminded me of one other thing that did kind of irritate me with Ingram sparks where you know with Amazon, Oh you find out there's a typo or you want to fix something, um, you need to update like some kind of book links because you've, you know, you have more versions on Amazon it's free, but for every time you do a new upload of a new version, there's a fee on IngramSpark.

So, Oh my God, I forgot about that one.

Jesper (43m 39s): Yeah. But yeah, I dunno. Again, the logic evades me here because, okay, if you're telling me that we are paying for the upload because it takes up some sort of virtual storage space and, and, okay, fine, let's say that then, but because I create, I update a typo and upload the same file it, that's not going to create more, I mean it's basically, there's no human involvement from IngramSpark is not going to take up more space in cyber space. You know? It's just like, Oh my God, that's just like, no, it's just a fee to have a the.

It's just, I don't like that.

Autumn (44m 14s): No. Okay. I agree. But there's still something about a level of professionalism, but maybe that's sort of the key is that if you're publishing through Ingram sparks, you're probably got a good platform. You're making enough money, you don't jump into these waters unless you know you can afford it and tackle it and handle it. And

Jesper (44m 32s): that's why you'd be doing it. Yup. So I think, uh, I think that's it though. This list, there was a lot of good stuff to think about here for four people. For I mean for certainly for those who never heard about IngramSpark, now you know what it is. Uh, but also for the more experienced people, uh, yeah. We've, we've done some research on your behalf here, so at least you can use what we've talked about here to figure out for yourself if, if IngramSpark is something you want to pursue or not.

Of course, if you have a big, big back catalog, yeah, maybe they just want to do it going forward. I don't know. But, uh, to think about that one.

Autumn (45m 12s): And Hey, if you're on IngramSpark, do you have any comments about why you love it or think you regret it? You know, put that in the comments too. We'd love to hear, right. So next Monday we are going to share how to prepare to write a new book. So that'll be a lot of fun.

Narrator (45m 33s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next time.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Bonus Episode – An exclusive opportunity

During these times of self-quarantine, many of us are stuck at home (probably watching way too much Netflix, or something like that 😊). So, we thought that this would be an excellent time to learn new things.

We were thinking to put a short course together for you. Asking in the Facebook group which topic would be the most interesting, it turned out that Character Development came out with twice as many votes as the runner up. So, creating memorable characters it is 😊.

 Putting our heads together, we figure that we’ll create about one hour of video training for you, covering:

• Cast of Characters – understand what archetypes of characters are available and which ones your story needs
• Why you need to start with character creation and not plot
• Understanding character motivation and how to develop it
• Choosing POV characters
• Character arcs and how to tie them to the story structure

 If that’s something you find interesting, we’re offering a special discount.

 Enroll here: https://ultimatefantasywritersguide.com/register/character-development/ before the 12th of April 2020 and you’ll get the course for only $14,99, instead of $47.

On top of the discount, we’re going to run an exclusive 60 minute live Q&A session (date to be determined) where you can ask any question you want.

Now… we’re only going to create this course is we get at least twenty sign-ups. Less than that, we’ll of course refund your money.

Enroll right away, and don’t forget to spread the word so we get above the threshold of twenty participants.

We promise to get recording as soon as possible with the aim to have this course in your inbox before the end of April 2020.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 66 – Publishing wide vs. Amazon exclusivity & MUCH more! (with Joanna Penn)

In episode 66 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Jesper is joined by one of the most influential voices within the indie-author space.

That's Joanna Penn.

Joanna and Jesper discuss whether you should be publishing your books wide or choose exclusivity with Amazon (Kindle Unlimited). 

They also cover multiple streams of income. Hosting author events. How to manage a busy work schedule and whether or not authors should be paying attention to future tech, such as virtual reality and augmented reality.  

You can find out about Joanna Penn here:

https://www.thecreativepenn.com/podcasts/

https://www.booksandtravel.page/listen/

https://twitter.com/thecreativepenn

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello, I am Jesper and this is episode 66 of the amwritingfantasy podcast. So while autumn is taken care of some other stuff today, I'm extremely pleased to be joined by probably one of the most influential voices in the indie author space. So I'm going to have a very interesting chat with Joanna Penn and a while we start out by talking about extra activity versus going wide. I'll also try to ask Joanna some questions that I at least hope she hasn't heard a million times before, but we'll see how it goes.

Um, chances are that you've heard you Anna, on other podcasts before. So I, so I want to see if I can take the conversation in a slightly different direction. That than normal, but we'll see how that goes. For those of you who might not know Joanna I can let you know that she's an award nominated New York times and us a two day bestselling author and Joanna writes thrillers under JF Penn and have written more than 30 books and sold over half a million bucks in 84 countries. And I think there's probably more than that by now and five languages.

So she is a very big advocate of selling your books wide rather than being exclusive to Amazon. And she regularly advises authors on topics within self-publishing through her very successful podcast, the creative Penn podcast. So I honestly tried to reduce that introduction as much as I could do. I know, but the, but there's so much to say, so I didn't know where to stop, but welcome to the amwritingfantasy podcast.

Joanna (2m 2s): Hello. Thanks for having me. Yes. For and yeah, I realized I've been going for more than a decade now in this, in these phase, so it can be difficult to encapsulate, but I'm really happy to be on the show today and answer any questions you have.

Jesper (2m 15s): Yeah, that's very good. I don't know, maybe just to start off softly here, is there anything maybe you could share about yourself or what you're doing at the moment that I didn't quite touch upon there in the intro?

Joanna (2m 26s): Uh, yeah. Well I think what's interesting, well, might might be interesting to the listeners. I mean, you have the amwritingfantasy podcast and in fact, I got up this morning and went to my writing cafe and wrote 2000 words on my neck fantasy novel. So I am a fantasy writer. I do like fantasy maps as, as you do. And so I might in the third in my Matt Walker trilogy, which is a kind of dark fantasy split world am portal fantasy I think sometimes they're called. Uh, and then my other self, uh, as Joanna Penn, and I'm this week I have a launch for audio for, which is about podcasting and audio books and voice technologies and the AI and voice and that kind of thing.

So one of the important parts of me is the own quite a split personality, you know, faced a similar to you. I mean you do the same thing. You write fiction, nonfiction. Um, and I write in lots of other genres. So I think that's what I'm working on them. Well, what I'm always working on is I'm always trying to balance my affection and my nonfiction, which is a challenge for many writers.

Jesper (3m 28s): Oh yes. I think I'm going to ask you a bit more about that today as well. That balance part that's a, that is difficult. But, uh, yeah, I once again at least thank you for, for joining today and because one of the things that I initially thought about when, when we wanted to invite you onto the podcast, am wants the whole topic about being wide versus being exclusive to Amazon, meaning publishing within Kindle unlimited. Uh, and I do personally know why you think it's better to be white.

And I agree with your points of view on that, but, uh, but I think it's, it's sort of a topic that bears repeating. Uh, and it's quite important too to think about those things when people, I publishing whether or not you want to publish wide or you want to be exclusive to Amazon, but, but maybe you could just talk us through your line of thinking when it comes to being white versus being exclusive.

Joanna (4m 24s): Yeah, sure. Well, there's a few things. First of all, there is a choice on every book and every format. So you just mentioned Kindle unlimited so that's eBooks specifically within the markets that have Kindle unlimited, which is a very small part of the world and a very small part of the publishing EK system. Um, so even if you want to be on K you for your eBooks, you can still go wide with print and audio, which we'll talk about in a minute. Or you could go exclusive with a series and then go wide with other books. Um, all in one John HRA or an author name.

So there are so many different variations of what white and exclusive means. I want to be clear up front. The second thing is that because I've been publishing independently since before there was even a Kindle. Uh, so you know, I've been, when did I start writing 2006 and I published in 2008. It wasn't till 2010, the international Kindle came along. So I basically started public self publishing when eBooks were just kind of starting out, moving from downloadable PDFs from websites to the reader.

And uh, there was no Kindle unlimited till, I think it was 2014. Am was when it started out. KDP select started out. So I might be wrong on the dates, but it was certainly a number of years after I started publishing or I was, uh, I'm obviously English and um, I was living in Australia at the time. So even when Americans could publish within the K you ecosystem, the Kindle ecosystem, those of us who were international could not, and it's still not open to everyone. So this is the first thing. I mean there are listening to this show potentially all over the world and my podcast has been downloaded in over 220 country, which I think is pretty much everywhere.

See what we've got to remember is when you're on the internet, whether it's podcasting or books or whatever, you have to think that there are people who would like to buy your books all over the world. And as you mentioned, um, I haven't fact now sold books in 134 countries, which is kind of crazy. So this is my perspective as an international author. What I feel is so often the self publishing community is dominated by American voices. And American America is the biggest market for sure on its own.

But if you put everything else together, everything else is much, much bigger. And we barely even begun the digital transformation in most countries. So I have this longterm view. I have this international view. I also have a multifaceted view, I guess because I have so many books. I know you, you and autumn have a lot of books as well. So I do actually have a couple of books in Kindle unlimited, for German. So I have three German books they are in K because I have no ability really to market in German.

Um, and in fact, I just put an audio book live today in German because I have no other way of marketing those. I've decided to use Kindle unlimited and ACX for audible. Um, specifically in order to use the marketing that I need for a market, I have no other way of reaching. Whereas for English language, I have a podcast. I have a website or use social media, I can reach a market globally through other means. So there is so many things to think about when it comes to exclusivity versus white.

And look if, if, if someone listening, if you're just starting out, if you only have one book and you're putting it out in e-book, then sure, go in. K you not a problem because there's a lot of things to consider when you're first starting out and then, cause it's only a 90 day, you know, turnover, you could change your mind later on and go wide later on. Um, but what I would say is for print, print is very interesting because KDP print is brilliant. You can sell your book on Amazon stores, but you won't get into libraries.

You won't get into bookstores, you won't get into universities. You you know, there's a lot of things you can't do if you publish print on Amazon only. So I recommend Ingram spark for print and then for with KDP print plus Ingram spark. Um, and then for audio, um, I use ACX for they, um, you know, the audible market and then I use find a way voices again for library EK systems and for um, you know, Google play for Scribd for all these places where people are getting their audio now.

So I hope that gives you some sort of facets of the different, uh, parts of, of wide versus exclusive.

Jesper (8m 51s): Yeah, absolutely. And I think there is a good point buried there as well in the sense that it's not an, it's not a forevermore decision when you decide, for example, if you put a book into Kindle unlimited it can be a per book decision as well. You know, it's, it's not like you can just pull it up three months later. So maybe there is also a point around not overthinking it in that sense that, uh, if you want to test it out the waters for a while there, you could do but do so, but at the same time, wouldn't you also say that those people who read books in a subscription systems like Kindle unlimited are not necessarily kind of the same people who buy books?

So if you're building an audience purely for example, in co co Kindle unlimited and then you pull them wide afterwards, you're starting a bit over in building an audience wide, wouldn't you say? So?

Joanna (9m 41s): Yes. But then I think as we, as our author career develops, I think we're always building new audiences. So, um, you know, I know plenty of authors who go into K you for, you know, a first year and then take the whole series wide, for example. And, and this is, you know, someone like Lindsey broker. He's one of the biggest in the fantasy authors. Uh, you know, but she writes a book a month, whereas I'm kind of, I write a couple of books a year. In fact, I only white one fantasy book a year. So that's hard to do when you're not someone who puts a lot of books out.

But the biggest difference for those of us who would do this for a career and a new author is that a new author literally, genuinely has one book. Um, or maybe they have a couple of books if they've held onto some things. So I do recommend that people start with getting to grips with one EK system and then moving into other things later for eBooks. But again, I really want to reiterate, especially with nonfiction, you and I both write nonfiction as well. Um, nonfiction is a very print heavy and very audio heavy market.

Um, and in fact fantasy books if especially if they're long fantasy books or if you do a fantasy audio book box that you can get really good sales in audio as well. So I do, what I really want to emphasize is the idea of having multiple formats as well as multiple stores, multiple countries. So if you think about a business plan that is the kind of scaling that you want to do over time and as for different kinds of readers. I agree with you. I'm someone who buys books on the Kindle, but what we're seeing with digital, with audio as well as eBooks is a move to more and more subscription services.

So I mentioned script for example, which is growing fast in am audio books. Obviously it's not just audible at storytell, it's all these different types of subscription services. So I don't think we're stopping the subscription service anytime scene. I think what I want is to say I'd rather be on every subscription service, so I would go, I have nothing, no issues with K you I have an issue with exclusivity.

Jesper (11m 43s): Yeah, yeah. I was actually just about to say the same thing. For example, Kobo plus where I don't have any problem with their subscription model there because they don't demand you to be exclusive with that. That's the part that I also personally don't like. Um, and also Amazon making well as authors, our income is the books that were selling unless we're doing other things as well. But, but at least from a starting point that that's the income we building and being a hundred percent dependent on Amazon deciding something else tomorrow than they did today.

I don't know. I just does not feel good to me.

Joanna (12m 16s): No, exactly. I'm, I'm the same as you as you know.

Jesper (12m 20s): Yeah. But maybe, uh, that moves us quite nicely into, into another part of the same conversation because as authors of course we are, as we just said, we are building an income based on book sales. Um, but one thing is that a book can be several different things like, like you just talked about am audio books is, it's another format. Maybe there is, um, foreign rights or whatnot. But there's also other things you can do as, as, as an author.

I mean, of course am both you and myself and autumn also run some ortho courses and that sort of thing. So what I'm getting into is sort of multiple streams of income that you can make a living from rather than being dependent on a single sole income. S for example, eBooks or whatever we want to say. But I was wondering if we are thinking about somebody who wants to build a full time income, is it, or maybe if there is no difference here, but that's my question. Right? Would you recommend that people focus on like a few well earning streams of income and then put all the, you know, marketing focus and all their money in, in those baskets or is it better to have just a lot of smaller streams of incomes that together builds up a lots of streams and maybe, you know, what are the pros and cons of each if there are any?

That was a long question.

Joanna (13m 47s): Well, there's a couple of, a couple of questions to kind of fire at people less than, um, you know, one is what is a full time income. So this differs from in so many ways. You know, if you are, it's that, say you're listening and you're single and you're renting and you don't have kids, you don't, you know, you don't have a lot of debt. That is a very different situation to someone. You know, he might be in there my age, you know, mid forties maybe has a mortgage, has some kids in school, you know the definition and there's obviously if you live in New York city versus the middle of, you know, Sheffield here or places that might be cheaper to live.

So that would be one thing that you have to decide what is a full time income that needs to be the number one thing. The second thing needs to be what do you want to do full time? So, uh, for example, I mentioned Lindsey broker. Say Lindsey Lindsey is a friend of mine and um, she has obviously the six figure author podcast, which I highly recommend, but Lindsey, right all the time, you know, she has said that she does sometimes 10 hour days writing now there is a different personality and a different type of author. No one is the same type of author.

But when I compare myself to Lindsey, she writes every day for that many hours, say sh maybe she puts in a 40, 50 hour week on the actual writing I write. But I generally write maybe two hours a day. So maybe I put in a 10 hour a week in terms of writing fiction. Um, so if you look at how we make a living that is going to be reflected in the work that we do and that we want to do. So when I, you know, as I said, I've been doing this full time for almost 10 years now since I left my job in, in 2011 and I have never wanted to make a full time income from fiction.

I wanted to be an author, entrepreneur. So this is the thing. Who are you as a personality? I cannot help myself. I don't think you can either. I mean if you, you know, if you, you end up going, Oh, I really want to write this nonfiction book. I really want to do this course because they want to help other people. I really want to podcast because I want to talk about the things I care about. And I think you come from a business background. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we just can't help ourselves. So there are other people listening who might be like Lindsay, he literally, all they want to do is write those white fantasy books all day.

So what you end up with is the desire to do different things also feeds into the multiple stream of income idea. Um, and that's really important because we don't want you to be miserable. You know, you don't want to give up your job and then find you hate it. I th I would go nuts if I tried to write fiction as a full time job. That's just not how our brains work. I am very happy writing a couple of novels a year, couple of nonfiction, do a course, etc. So that's that. That covers the first say two questions.

How much do you want to make? What is a fulltime living to what kind of person are you and what type of work is going to make you happy? Because at the end of the day, we all have to work. You just have to choose what you want to work out. Okay, so let's get onto the multiple streams. So I have, I have so many, like many hundreds at this point of streams of income, and they're, as you say, there were two kind of basics, active ones and passive ones, and then what kind of half passive, nothing. Nothing is truly passive, unfortunately.

But if we take am, I know you've done a podcast on Scrivener, for example. So I have a tutorial on Scrivener. I have a tutorial on vellum. Do you, do you use vellum vellum yet? Okay, so velum for anyone listening is am formatting software. I love it. So I have a tutorial on vellum, um, on my, on my website, the creative penn.com and I have an affiliate link. So an affiliate link is commission. So if somebody uses my link and buys vallum or by Scrivener, then I get some money.

Now, I recorded that video several years ago. It just sits on my website. People come to the website and I get money every month from they software platforms. Now it's a useful video. You don't have to by using my link. And it's kind of evergreen as about as passive as you can get in terms of an income stream. So what's, what is the problem in doing that? You just have to spend a couple of hours making a tutorial video that will help your audience. Um, so that's, uh, an idea of passive. I don't believe book sales are passive income because you really have to market these days.

You can get some residual sales. So I always say to my husband, if I died, it will probably take two years before the sales wizard to nothing unless you do some marketing. So am books or certainly not passive income, uh, doing a course. So I know you do courses. I do courses and I don't launch my courses. They're all evergreen, which means again, they sit on my website and you can buy them anytime. So again, in a way they're kind of passive. Um, and then just some ideas about active income streams.

So one, obviously both of us do a podcast and I have a pantry on I think. Do you have a pantry on? Yeah, yeah we do. Yeah, I thought you did. Um, so pantry on is an active income stream because if you don't produce a podcast you will not get any money from your patrons. Thank you patrons. By the way, everyone listening you are wonderful. We love you. Um, um, in fact I dedicated my latest book audio for authors. It's dedicated to the lessons of my podcast and especially my patrons because, Oh, perfect.

Yeah, because I they really make, not make me but drive me back to the microphone every week. Okay. So pay Patrion and also just for those of you who write Lindsay again bringing Lindsay up cause she's a fantasy or the. I figure, have you had Lindsey on your show? Yes, we actually did. Yes. Oh, there we go. Okay. So Lindsay also has a pantry on for her books. So T she does something smart. She releases her books to her patrons first and then puts them in Kau. So she actually gets around the exclusivity by, you know, giving, basically selling them to her patrons on a pre-release, then putting them in Kau.

And then when the series is done, she eventually, she puts it wide. So she's got a really good model. Then, um, the other, the other person, um, is, uh, she likes his mirror grant as well. Anyway, there's a lot of writers who put short stories on am pantry on NK Jemisin has a Patriot. I me, she's won all the Hugo awards and everything. Uh, so you patch you on consent and be used for writing, but again, it's an active income stream. And then another one would be speaking. So if you are a successful author, at some point you will be asked to speak, uh, whether that's at a literary festival, which will not pay you, uh, or they'll just pay expenses.

Or you could, um, you know, speaking and get paid. You could do your own events, uh, that type of thing. So, and again, that is an active income stream. You have to get people to come along and then you actually have to teach it. So those are a couple of examples of uh, active and slightly passive, more passive income streams. Yeah. I want to circle

Jesper (20m 48s): back to the events in, in just a few minutes. But before going there, I th the one thing that I'm quite sure many things many people would be thinking is that, okay, so if we have, if we're doing all of these things, because I agree with what you said before, that it all depends also on what do you want to do. And thus if you want to do it, hopefully it doesn't feel like slave slave work or something like that, then you're happy to do it. Right. But at the same time, if we aren't juggling multiple things here, um, and I know you do a lot, so my question to you was how do you structure your Workday to make sure that you apply enough focus on the different things?

Because, um, as you, as you brought up the example with Lindsey, right? If you just writing and your writing eight hours a day and then you do one hour marketing or whatever, then that's pretty simple. But in cases like both us and you were you, your building may be courses, you are tending all kinds of different stuff, but also you're writing some nonfiction and fiction and whatnot. How do you decide where to focus and put enough energy in each one every day?

Joanna (21m 54s): Right. Well, I've always done the same that I had a day job to show. Everyone knows I did have a day job for, for the first five years of doing this. So 2006 to 2011 I had a day job and my shed you'll then is the same as now. So I w I do creative work in the mornings and ID marketing and business in the afternoons. So, uh, you know, when I had a day job I would get up at five and I would write, try and do an hour before then going to my day job. And in the evening I would come home and work on the podcast work on my business website. And then at the weekends I was teaching courses and building out the business.

So basically I did that for five years. So when I left my job, I already had streams of income. Uh, now I do pretty much the same thing. It's just I go in the morning to a cafe and I write and I work on first draft material and I have to get out of the house because I'm talking to you at my home office and I cannot write first draft material in this office because I'm surrounded by distraction. As you say, I have a lot of other things to do. There's always more email, there's always more stuff to do. But I leave the office and I go and I write.

So I know today I did my 2000 words and that's done. And then I go and do some exercise and then I come back here and then the afternoon slash, evening, I do interviews, I do podcasting, I do business accounting, all the things you have to do to run a business. Um, I'll also do course creation and anything kind of more technical in the, in the afternoons. So that is literally it. Um, you, if you're listening in, you're not a morning person, then you're going to have to do it at night. Maybe it's the other way round.

Or you could do alternate days. If you literally only have one hour, maybe you can alternate the days or if, if you are just starting out again finish a book. Like don't get distracted by marketing and all these other things until you have a book. I hear, I get way too. Any questions from authors who were like, well, should I do about marketing? And I'm like, you say, how many books do you have that like, Oh, I haven't even finished a first draft. So yeah, finish the book first. But that is how I manage my time. Um, also another tip is I use Google calendar, um, to really manage my time in block in hour blocks, sometimes half hour blocks and everything is highly shed yield.

Um, so you know, and when I'm in that time slot, like you and I, right now we have a time slot, we're doing our interview and then the time slot is done and I have another time slot after this. I have a whole load of interviews this afternoon, so I batch tasks and um, basically just focus within the period of time I've allowed, whether or not that's, you know, half an hour or an hour like I did back in the day or now my full time life.

Jesper (24m 32s): Yeah. I'm, I'm wondered, uh, not versus autumn for example, autumn is not maintaining a day job, but I'm still maintaining at a day up because I'm kind of in the, in this place where you talked about earlier, right. How much income do you need to replace? And unfortunately, I have too much I need to replace. I'm still doing the day job, so at least on my end as well. Uh, I, I tried, I kind of adopt the same thing as you were saying there in the means that, uh, I can only do my creative stuff, but I, of course I have to do it very early in the morning before I, uh, I do my day job activities, but I can only do creative stuff in the morning because I always feel like afternoon, evening, I'd just too tired.

So, but I can easily do marketing stuff and all that stuff in the evening because yeah, with a business background that comes easy to me. So I don't need to use too much brain power doing better.

Joanna (25m 21s): Yeah. I think, and that's exactly the same as me. I, I it is much easier to do this kind of stuff than it is to write fiction and actually they I would say to people, and there's some romantic myth that being a full time writer is the goal. That's not necessarily the goal. You know, the goal is to have a great life and to write your books as well. Um, if you look at some of the figures that have come out from the various author organizations, most writers, including most indie writers, do not make very much money at all.

So you have to either have multiple streams of income, uh, or you, you keep your job. And in fact, I would also say having a job is great. You know, if you enjoy your job, then keep your job. And I hated my job, so I really wanted to leave my job. And this is the thing, but I, I definitely want to encourage people, look, if you can keep your creative life alongside your day job, then you won't have to do a lot of other things to bring in multi, multi streams of income. You can just focus on your creative work.

And in fact, the book big magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, um, she actually says you should support your art. Don't ask your art to support you. And I find that very challenging because of course I do have my art, but I also have my business. Um, so yeah, these are things everyone has to weigh up for themselves. Um, but as somebody told me a long time ago, don't be romantic about you pay your bills and money doesn't money.

Jesper (26m 47s): That's a good point. But I wanted to, uh, circled back to the events, uh, that you mentioned a few moments ago. Um, and I guess this is a bit of a sort of a self-serving question because I feel like, uh, you know, where we're going to get you on the podcast, I'm entitled to at least have one self-serving question as well because one of the things that am autumn and I have been discussing, uh, was to whether or not we should look at in the future doing some events on our own, you know, putting something together and maybe either with larger audiences or maybe with smaller intimate audiences, I don't know, but I have all the time been wondering if it is really, if you're looking at it from an income perspective, if it is really a viable way to get an income because it feels to me like if you go with the lots audience, of course you're also going to, uh, you know, we have a lot of work on your hands to organize everything.

Um, and of course you need to be able to attract enough of a crowd to actually fund the, the venue that you decide to take out. Um, but if you go with a small crowd then I feel like I think you have to have such a high ticket price that people are not really gonna want to do it or you can only just cover your costs. So I'm just curious a bit about what you experienced when it comes to speaking gigs and events and stuff like that. If it's, is it something that is viable to look at as something you can add money from or is it more like a building your brand name kind of thing?

Joanna (28m 20s): Well, again it depends on what type of speaking you're going to do and uh, cause there were all kinds, you know, I have a friend who was a keynote speaker, uh, for places like Google and Facebook and you know, he can get 20 grand for a lunch meeting, right? So if you choose to speak to a corporate audience and you have a topic that is appropriate for corporate events, then you can earn tons. Um, but if you are, let's say your going to do a workshop on fantasy mapmaking, then you are not gonna make much money from that.

Um, because the audience won't pay for that for, you know, they're not gonna pay that much for that workshop. So this is where you have to decide your own goal. And whereas for example, you could decide to speak as an author convention, you could do a panel on a work on an author convention and that would help build your brand. As you say, we'll probably sell some of your fantasy map making books. Am may get you some more readers, but you don't do author events for the money because it's, it's just not there.

Uh, as, as you say, um, I have, so in terms of actual income, and I may be running as we speak, the Corona virus thing is, uh, having fun with the worlds. Uh, so I was about to actually book a hotel for a am PR in-person event. Um, and I was going to have people, I may still do this, so by the time anyone listens to this, it may well be happening or might be in the future or whatever. But this is the types of things I've done where I have made money. And when I say made money, I mean a couple of thousand pounds in a weekend, which you know, too many people is good money.

Um, and also it's a, you know, can be an interesting weekend. So that would be 30 people in an, you know, a decent hotel and the price would be aimed at people who are serious about their writing career. So it's not a one Oh one how to vote a book type of situation. So, so you've got a number of factors there. It's, you know, what are you comfortable doing? And I've been doing professional speaking again for decades, so I know how to run a small event like that. I would never ever run a big event. I think the risk is too high and also it's not fun for me. I'm, I'm an introvert, you know, I don't enjoy big event.

Um, uh, so yeah, you have to decide like, who are you, who are the audience, who's going to pay? And so, for example, I, I've had an idea on the back burner for a few years now that I'll write and probably pitched you a traditional publisher in order to aim for that corporate speaking market. I may well still do that as well, but that's where I see if you want to be a speaker, then you can earn money with the right audience. If you want to be a teacher and run small events and, or speaker, author things than it is a much smaller thing.

And, you know, speaking at fantasy conventions, that is a brand building so that there's just such a range of, of things.

Jesper (31m 8s): Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying. But, and I think also, I mean, of course for the corporate speaking market, um, I fully agree with that. Uh, of course from our point of view, we were more looking at the am at like the author community, right? Because we also across the us are aimed at authors and all that sorts of stuff that would, that would be our audience, right? Or other authors, uh, wanting to, uh, go to an event, uh, whatever that may be.

Joanna (31m 35s): Yeah. And they and then you have to look at the author market in general and say, yeah, there are some authors with some money. Um, but if you look at the ticket price or most author events, they are not very high. So yes, there are ways you can do it, but you, you have to know your audience and know your value to the audience and what you can deliver that is worth a higher ticket price for example.

Jesper (31m 57s): Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. Uh, something we will continue discussing internally, myself and autumn about what we want to do there. But I for for one, I think it could be fun. I mean, uh, of course running podcast running courses, we also do all of that stuff because we like helping other people we like to use.

Joanna (32m 14s): Exactly. And that's another reason to do it. But you know, you asked about the money.

Jesper (32m 19s): Yeah, yeah. And DB because basically I guess what we're, we're trying to see if there was like an overlap in the Venn diagram here, right. Where it's not going to, it's not because we need to get rich from it, but we do want to earn a bit of money because at the end of the day, eh, going, preparing both, preparing an event but also going to an event, it is taking away time from other things that we could be doing that would earn us money. So it needs to sort of be justified in that sentence as well. So that's something we will think about. But, uh,

Joanna (32m 48s): I think you should probably start the pair of you or one of you, whoever, you know, you should pitch for panels at existing events or pitch to do workshops at existing events and then see if you enjoy it basically.

Jesper (33m 1s): Yeah. What am has already participated in a couple of different panels in the U S where she's based, a socio read sort of dipped our toes into the pond there. So, uh, okay. But that's good. But that was a bit about the future thinking here. So maybe I could, uh, shift us into another future future Christian media. Do you wanna uh, because I know that you probably like most, uh, unlike most others I guess really like to look into the futuristic stuff.

Um, so when I had you on here, I couldn't think of anyone better to ask about where you see stuff like VR and augmented reality come into fiction books. And if this is something we should have authors actually pay some attention to, um, and if we want to pay attention to it, where, where do we look, where do we get those? Like, um, you know, if we want to get in early on some of this stuff, where do we get the inputs and the insights as to how to do stuff like that?

Joanna (34m 3s): Well, it's interesting because of course, augmented reality and virtual reality are really starting to take off. And in fact, again, circling back to the, the Corona virus, what we're seeing is share prices in companies that do remote working and remote, you know, experiences are going up. So I think we may even see an acceleration in things like AR and VR because of this am virus, uh, issue. Um, because people will want to do more in VR.

So for example, I meant to be speaking, uh, when this goes out, it will have happened or not happened. But I don't know right now where the London book fair is going ahead and I meant to be speaking at an event and, um, you know, I see. If I could speak in virtual reality, then I probably would. So one of w in talking about teaching courses for example, I do think that we're going to see the rise in, you know, there's a lot of digital tickets to events at the moment. You can get to conventions and stuff that in the future, maybe we just deliver those in VR or in terms of marketing.

Maybe you and I meet in a, some kind of virtual space and people can attend the virtual space. So I think there'll be a lot of teaching. A lot of events will happen in in via, um, of course, one of the biggest areas it's already ahead of the curve, um, is gaming. Uh, so a good example in the fantasy space of course, is the Witcher. Uh, have you read the books or seeing there?

Jesper (35m 28s): I've seen the movie or a series I should say.

Joanna (35m 31s): Yeah, well of course, you know, the books have become massive because of the gaming. Um, so what I think is, is the licensing of fantasy universes for gaming and that is a challenge for independence. I do not think AR and VR are things we can do alone. So whereas we can very easily write a book alone, formatted with vellum and you know, pay a cover designer and an editor please but we can basically get books out on our own. Um, I have my own audio booth, I can do audio books on my own, but when it comes to AR, VR, gaming, am adaptation in fantasy worlds into this multimedia space, this is where licensing is going to come into it saying so I really think this is a fascinating area and there's going to be lots more stuff going on.

And I know quite a lot of writers who write for gaming worlds, uh, at the moment. That's definitely something that fantasy authors can consider if they want to look at that. That's obviously worked for hire, which we didn't talk about, but that is, you know, like that's the sort of contract jobs. Um, but yeah, um, books to gaming to adaptation to fantasy worlds that are turned into these entertainment experiences that is, that is only going to get bigger. Um, as we get more and more of these streaming services, uh, you know, Disney and Amazon and Netflix and everybody else.

So I think that's very exciting. But as I said, the education side, that's probably where I'll be looking, uh, over the next, certainly in the next decade, you know, by the time we get to 20, 30, I think we'll be doing things quite differently. Uh, in terms of podcasting, in terms of marketing, there'll be a lot more that is online in real life if you get what I mean, sort of in, in, in that, in that way.

Jesper (37m 11s): Do you think fiction books, uh, you know, for example, Kindle or eBooks, do you think that they will become more interactive in one way or another?

Joanna (37m 19s): No, I think it is. The interactivity of an ebook to me is, uh, has to be another product. I think we might, you know, w the formats. So audio books for example, I'm thinking of adapting some of my audio books and audio book is a straight read of a text. Right? But I can rewrite my books as am audio dramas. So I've written quite a lot of screenplays for my books, um, but audio dramas as cheaper to produce. So I'm definitely thinking of that. But they in terms of the interactivity, people get that from gaming.

People get that from other formats of, uh, work. So I do think that the ebook, uh, is not something that will become interactive. Uh, I think it'll just be something different. So it might be an augmented reality experience, whatever you call that. So they for example, I've written some books, some crime books that are set along the South bank of London. And I've thought about, well, maybe I could do an augmented reality tour of that area of London. So if you walk around there, I'll be there next to you talking about the place.

Um, I have thought about that, but again, I think we have to consider these things as different formats. And also going beyond being independent to licensing. So we haven't really talked about licensing, it's all but, um, we have copyright in our creative work and we can license it to different people to do different things. So I think Indies have mastered doing things ourselves, the basic stuff, but we're going to have to get a lot more comfortable with licensing if we want to move into these more extended worlds.

Jesper (38m 54s): Right. And do you think all this VR, augmented reality and stuff, do you think that this is something that would be good to get, you know, get going early or getting as an early adopter of that? Or is it better to wait until it becomes a bit more mainstream and maybe the cost goes down to produce it and stuff like that?

Joanna (39m 13s): Uh, I don't think you can get into this early as an independent. Uh, I can't see how you can, it's not like you can buy a piece of software like vellum and then make something unless you're a programmer. Um, getting involved with that, to me as a creative, I can't see a way to get involved in it early.

Jesper (39m 30s): No, no, I agree. Let me, let me clarify what I meant. What I meant was more to really pay a lot of focus on what is happening in the market and sort of have your finger on the pulse and then if, if a company comes out with some sort of solution that can be used from a, from an author perspective, then that you jump in really early on and start moving on it. Or is it better to sort of wait, because I, I, what I'm thinking is that if you jump in early, the cost will also be significantly higher. Uh, whereas if you wait until it's like a proven product that, that people know that this stuff is working, then probably the cost will go down.

But of course then everybody is doing it and you're not getting the early mover advantage there. So that was more my question. I think I didn't explain it well enough.

Joanna (40m 13s): Well, I think everyone has to decide what they're interested in. Uh, so you know, I've been podcasting since 2009 so I was clearly into podcasting before it went mainstream. Thus, I was able to take advantage of being an early mover in the space. Um, but I am not, I don't have, I'm not a gamer so I don't have any gaming headset. If you are a gamer listening, you probably have, uh, you know, you might already have an AR headset. There are lots of different they they've been going, you know, the virtual reality headsets have been going for years now.

So I think people will cheat. You have to choose what you're interested in and follow that and it will likely be the stuff you already do for fun. So for me it's always been audio. For other people it might be gaming.

Jesper (40m 58s): Okay, fair enough. All right, well time flies when you're having fun here. So maybe a to F to finish off am is there anywhere a place where you want to direct our listeners to if, if they want to know more about you and what you're doing? Joanna

Joanna (41m 15s): yes. If you'd like podcasting, which presumably you do say, come on over to the creative Penn podcast family, the Dublin, uh, that is my podcast for authors. I have a nother podcast called books and travel, which is obviously about books and travel and am that is the booksandtravel and yeah, basically I think, um, if people have questions, probably the best places Twitter at the creative Penn but it's definitely a really interesting time to be a writer. And being a fancy writer in particular is definitely a great time to write fantasy so I appreciate what you you and awesome are doing with this show.

Jesper (41m 54s): Oh, thank you. And thank you very much for coming on today. Do you wanna

Joanna (41m 57s): no worries. Thanks so much. Yes. For

Jesper (42m 1s): all right, so, uh, I hope you've got a lot out of that conversation with the Joanna Penn and the next week autumn we'll be back and we will be back into our old groove again.

Narrator (42m 13s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 65 – How much should you edit while writing?

Should you edit while writing?

The advice is just to write, but is that the best thing for novice authors?

How about after finishing your first trilogy or once you've hit your professional stride?

Autumn and Jesper delve into what they've been told — and the advice they've given! — to tease out the realities, when editing while you write might be a big help, and the realities of what they both do in this episode of self-reflection with some writing group horror stories thrown in!

Check out the free Ultimate Fantasy Writer's Starter Kit that Autumn mentions in the show at ultimatefantasywritersguide.com/starter-kit/.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need in literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Hello.

I am Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is episode 65 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and I think editing has sort of been a focus

Jesper (42s): because over the last few episodes with, with a, with a small detour into mapmaking last week. But uh, yeah, but for from next week onwards we're going to, uh, move the topic away from editing. But today though, we have one more episode for you, which centers on a question often asked and that is how much should I edit while I write?

Autumn (1m 9s): So it's still, it's still sort of a theme cause we've been talking about, you know, how much to read while writing. So we're still on the am writing part, but that's kind of what we're about, isn't it? Yeah,

Jesper (1m 22s): I think so. It might be, it might be in the name of the podcast.

Autumn (1m 27s): I think it might, but this will be a fun one. I, it'll be interesting to hear your take. And I, I put a lot of thought into this one and it's making me question what I usually give as advice. So I'll just leave that there. Right?

Jesper (1m 42s): Yeah. That can be good or bad. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. It was some self reflection time, so that's always a good thing. Yeah, that's pretty good. So how are things on your side of the ocean? Uh, well it's, it's been pretty quiet to be honest. Um, you know, I was supposed to do some business travel last week, uh, but I've got canceled because of a Corona virus concerns.

Um, and I was also supposed to go to Cairo in three weeks from now. That also would cancel Corona virus. So, yeah, just sort of been maintaining a, you know, business hours from home. And then, uh, early in the morning hours I've been very focused on trying to get the plumbing done for our next novel.

Autumn (2m 37s): Oh, I'm so excited. I love where this plotting is going. So, um, I can't wait till we get to write it.

Jesper (2m 44s): Yeah. Only, only missing to plot out three more chapters and then the plotting is almost done after that, so it shouldn't be too long, I would say. But, uh, but I cannot, uh, who forget that we have like three courses too,

Autumn (3m 1s): this building website. Am I not happening quite as fast as we want it to? But yeah, it's always worse when you're a writer. You're always waiting to get to the writing, but there's a lot of business side of being a writer that we've got to take care of two at the moment.

Jesper (3m 19s): Yeah. Especially with all the nonfiction like author stuff that we're doing is that that takes up a lot of time, which is okay and it's fine. I like doing it as well. But uh, but I must admit, you know, once, once you've sat down and you plotted the whole thing, it feels like now I really would like to write it now. It has to wait. It has to wait.

Autumn (3m 38s): Yes. I, I felt that way when I read the first three, the outline to the first three chapters we call, I want to, okay. No we're good. Don't touch bad. So how about you then? I feel so successful because my little cabin room I've been building has walls and insulation, um, and it actually has doors and windows and we're just actually on the inside paneling and then at some built-in bookshelves and eventually, uh, as the weather warms up doing, finishing out the outside trim.

So it's almost there. I have been good and I've gone down to only a half day of building so that I can do, Oh, you know, like the amwritingfantasy work we were just talking about. I'm so far behind so I've got to catch up. But it's been good and it's exciting and it is oddly warm. I'm in Vermont, which is troubling, but it is hard to ignore one of those days where you open up the door, the window, and it's am above 20 Celsius in the high sixties Fahrenheit and it feels warm.

It feels the birds are singing and you just want to go plant a garden and you don't even need a coat. And it's just like, this is, I'm just going to go sit outside for a few minutes and yeah, life's good. That's sitting outside a little bit with my dog next to the stream that's in front of the cabin thinking this is pretty darn awesome.

Jesper (5m 5s): I'm a bit envious. You know what? It was like a, a couple of hours ago I was at the soccer practice with my son and it's, it's not, it's not warm here. It's like, what is it, like eight degrees Celsius or something like that. It's not been warm at all, but uh, but that's OK. you know, we used to that here in Denmark, but it was more like it has not, it's been clouded all day long and then like five minutes before we need to exit to go to the soccer field to go to soccer practice, it just starts pouring down.

Jesus could, I mean, right when we had to go out and started, it was just like, Oh my God. So hearing about 20 degrees Celsius, warm, nice weather. It's a bit, I can get a bit in to be honest.

Autumn (5m 53s): I'll send you a picture. Yeah. Just to make me feel real

Jesper (5m 58s): bad. Right. I live vicariously through with you, with your kids. You can live vicariously. Nice weather with threw me. All right. That's fair enough. Oh, we go on the internet with the amwritingfantasy podcast. So we have like a constant influx of riders joining the amwritingfantasy Facebook group. Yes, we do. It's amazing. It is. And I actually checked earlier today, we've had 6,200 posts and comments over the last 28 days.

What do you think about that? Three kidding. That's what it says in Facebook. Analytical. Facebook's never wrong force. Well, no, but I like that stat. I'm going to say we'd go with it. That is absolutely astounding. I mean, I know it's like I go in there and it looks like, you know, Luke are, you has just let someone in and there's already like three people lined up. I'm like, Oh my gosh, we can't keep up. This is amazing. It's wonderful. But it is such a fantastic group. Like I said, I don't even like Facebook, but I like Facebook just for the amwritingfantasy group.

It's worth it. Yeah. There, there's, there's a lot of help and advice to get in the Facebook group. For for you, a listener for and fellow authors. Uh, we do do our best to be quite strict so that we keep it clean for any like promotional stuff. And as soon as we see something we deleted and we do want people and we also kick some people out if they can. Um, so, but, but what it means is that that the Facebook group is a very healthy, helpful community of fellow fantasy authors.

So, um, I just picked out a few, like a selfie for example, asks what editing software people use and why. Mike wanted to know the titles of people's favorite fantasy books from the past. And Arthur asked for some writing advice with regards to the need of, uh, showing the reader, the protecting his family, or if you could leave that out. I just picked a random few pieces there, but as you can hear it, there was all kinds of questions in the group and they all get answers.

So if you have not joined yet to, you know, feel free to do so. Just search for amwritingfantasy in the group section of Facebook and we will let you in as soon as we see. You see those wait list of things to, yeah, well, we definitely tried to approve the people, you know, every day. But uh, it often happens that both myself and autumn and Luke ends up letting people in on the same day in like morning, noon and night, I think.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Well that is quite the breadth of topics. That's what's so neat about it is, I mean, it literally, you go in there and it covers everything. So I kind of liked that. I've seen life life questions to editing, to publishing,

Autumn (8m 56s): to formatting to cover is, uh, it's, it's kinda fun.

Jesper (9m 1s): Yeah, I think it is to be honest. Uh, it's, it's good. It's really good.

Autumn (9m 6s): Yeah, it is. And I know, I think it's a little, we've had a little bump, um, with people joining us on our ultimate fantasy writer starter kit and I think it's from the publisher, the women in publishing summit that I was just a part of. They, uh, the number one watched session was actually the writing tips panel that I was a part of. So that was kind of really, I know, total success and helping so many other authors and through that I linked people to the starter kit.

So we just had a whole bunch of people join there and one of them recently, Mary van, she left a comment of a phenomenal amount of information. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and expertise. I look forward to taking your course in the near future. So that's so nice of her to have stopped by and left a message and yeah, I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes if anyone else is interested in joining us on the starter kit, which is our, our little free video course. So if you're looking for some ideas on how to start writing so you can am start writing strong and develop your ideas, how to avoid some of those novice pitfalls that can totally keep you from ever finishing your novel and then pick up the top 10 tools to make sure you do succeed in writing.

Those are, that'll be waiting for you in the show notes.

Jesper (10m 24s): Yeah, absolutely. And uh, I think it's three videos that you're going to get there, uh, by signing up. So we're gonna email you three different videos. I think they're spaced out a bit, if I remember correctly. Autumn

Autumn (10m 35s): the way you can, that way you don't feel like you have to watch it right now. You can, you know, you've got a couple of days.

Jesper (10m 40s): Yeah. So we will email you one video at a time, uh, once you sign up and then you can watch it at, at, at your own time. Uh, so that's nice. Oh, so how much should I edit while I write? I mean, this is a bit of a tough one to be honest with. You already alluded to the fact that you had to do some thinking well when preparing you.

Autumn (11m 8s): Yeah. As I did some major self-reflection because my advice has always been, do not ever, ever edit while you write. Just don't do it just right forward until you finish that first draft. And I've said that for I don't know, I've been giving advice since 2012 so for almost eight years I guess. No. Hmm. And I realized that when it comes to living that advice, what I do is entirely different, but it's not editing full out.

But there's definitely some editing while writing. And there's a couple, to me, I have a couple of really good reasons of why I go back and edit. But what do you try to do? Um,

Jesper (11m 54s): well, I also have to say when preparing this a go, you know, when I prepared this episode on the am thought of thought about what my point of view was on this topic, uh, I also came into the preparation of this podcast episode thinking that, well, I know exactly what I think about death. Then the wire sat in there and I sort of thought a bit about it. Then I started doubting a bit, uh, to feel about no, exactly because, okay. But, but I think if we sort of, maybe it would be a good thing to, just to start off, if I've just listed out here the sort of the two opposing viewpoints.

Yeah. In reality, I don't think of this, this black and white at all. The more you think about it is, it is not. But if we just for one second, you look at it black and white. So you have two opposing viewpoints, right? So, um, so on one hand we would find the writer who believes that it's best to write your first draft as fast as possible, not passing to do any editing at all. As you write, you know, ignore all misspelled words and all that, just leave it and just, right.

Uh, and then on the other end of the spectrum, we would then find the author who believes it. It's better to take a bit more time with your first draft and you know, fixing any obvious errors or even like if you, if you come across any problems, then you can fix those as you go as well. And that's, I guess that's the two opposing positions. But the more I think about it, there really not, there's not a right or wrong way of doing this.

Uh, but I think that's what we're going to get into discussing here a bit because this is something that is often debated, you know, if you showed on the internet and what not. There was a lot of viewpoints on this kind of stuff. And, uh, I think the only thing we can do here is we can sort of look at the topic and give you some things to think about because I think this is something you have to decide for yourself what works best for you and what might work well for you is not necessarily what worked for me.

Um, I mean there was also those who are a bit like perfectionist and the, you know, you get too bogged down in editing when you're writing and you know, instead of finishing that draft, uh, you just keep perfectionism things and that's not good. Um, but on the other hand, there is also those who, you know, if you know that there's an error in the manuscript, it just drives you crazy not to fix it. So

Autumn (14m 29s): that's also a problem, right? This is a problem. It can become a total roadblock. But I think we should look at the pros and cons maybe of both approaches and then sort of the hybrid, which is probably where I am because I'm a hybrid pantser and plotters. So why wouldn't I be a hybrid editor while writing as well? I think that's just, I'm a hybrid in my life. I don't know what I'm a hybrid of, but I'm a hybrid.

Jesper (14m 53s): Uh, I think sometimes you have like a spyware on my computer or something because literally the next bullet on my list,

Autumn (14m 60s): pros and cons, we are that in tune. It doesn't matter that there's the Atlantic between us. It's, we just know it's going on. That's so weird. You're not used to this yet. It's been like three years. I guess I can still surprise me. I mean, how can you pick exactly what my next bullet point says? He's really pretty good. Oh, but yes. All right, so we're going to do pros and cons. So what's the next bullet? Are we jumping ahead or is that, are we good for this now?

Jesper (15m 32s): Yeah, let, let's just start with the pros and cons and then S C a bit. I mean, it's not that I have a lot about pros and cons. I've, I've kind of kept it a bit simple. Um, but I think maybe to start out with, I could say like the one of the pros of editing as you go is that your first draft draft is obviously more cleaner. And I would guess that it's probably also more cohesive once you're done then it would have been if you didn't edit anything.

Right.

Autumn (16m 3s): And for this one, sorry, sound fair. That sounds fair. And I was thinking what really comes to mind to me when someone edits especially extensively with every single, like say let's say chapter that's just easier instead of scenes. Um, I know a few authors who are very new and very inexperienced and they actually either find a coach or a mentor and, or just good beta readers and they're sending almost every chapter and they're really going over it and really fine tuning it and really working on character development and scenes.

And to me it seems amazingly time-consuming, but I also know that's, that might be what some people really want and need, especially for like your first novel, you're really learning. So there's something to be said about making it work that way. If that's what works for you and you really, you find someone, especially someone to bounce it off of, you're not just running around in your own head, which is, I think we're going to get to in the cons. But in the pros, if you find that mentor or a coach or whether you're paying for them or whether they're there just as a kindness of their heart, they're passing it onto you.

It's, that's not a bad way to develop a story if you're getting that help from an outside source. I think that could be really bad.

Jesper (17m 17s): Yeah. I mean, because there's, there's something to be said as well about it. All of this also depends on where you are in your writing journey. Uh, I don't remember if I shared this story before, um, on, on a, on a past podcast episode. But when I started out writing first, I actually, I found a critique partner. Um, it was, you know, somebody who was experienced in writing himself.

Um, but I only find found one person and I did that on purpose because I felt like when I was first starting out, I feel like if I'm going to start sending this stuff out to beta readers and you know, and I'm going to get whatever, 2030, 40 however many of them, but, but whatever, you know, or let's just say five then five banner readers maybe. Right. And then I would get five different types of feedback and I felt like when, when I was first starting out, I feel like I was so inserts of vulnerable place where I would be very effected if I get five different types of feedback because I w I was not experienced enough to actually say, okay, this is, this is, I ignore this stuff just doesn't matter.

This is a good point here. I'll take that point, that's good. And then delete those points. You know, I was not in a place where I was able to do that. So instead I just found, okay, I'm going to find one person that I trust. And then what I did was I actually sent him one chapter at a time, so I just wrote one chapter and send it to him. And then I got feedback and I rewrote it and I send it back to him again. And he came back, rewrote it again. And I think I did it a million times. I don't, I don't recall them, but I do that a lot of times, especially in the first three chapters I wrote, I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote.

And every time he came back and said, well, this doesn't quite work and do this, and look at that. And then I rewrote it again and again and again until like, I think it took three months or something, but then at some point he said, okay, I think you're ready to start to start writing the first half of the book now. So, and then I started and I wrote half the book and then I sent that to him and he gave me some feedback. But at that point, I didn't know then that it was not a lot of rewriting there. Um, and then, uh, all of this, by the way, I should say all of this happened after I tried on my own first and I had to ditch, eh, like 50,000 words that are written.

I just did the whole thing and then I thought, okay, this is not going to work. I need help. And that was when I found that guy. Um, so, and then once I've written the first half of the book, I got a bit of feedback and I edited a bit on that and then I wrote last the last half and sent that to him. And then I was part of sort of good to go after that, but it helped a lot. Um, but that was a lot of editing as I went. But that's also because it, I think this topic does depend on where you are in your writing journey and how experienced you are.

Um, I don't think we can ignore that fact.

Autumn (20m 12s): No, and I agree. I mean, I, I think I had my manuscript pretty much done, but I did join a writer's group of writing class and that a writer's group, a creative writing class, and we kept going even after the class ended and we went chapter by chapter, everyone actually it was one of those rare groups where instead of getting like only five minutes, you, I think we went for 15 to 20. I mean you, if you're a fast enough reader or had short enough chapters, you could finish an entire chapter and we're all kind of were like, Oh, it's only one more page. Keep going.

Um, and so that really helped give feedback, especially even just hearing it. Um, it's such a difference when you're speaking in versus editing, you know, reading it so often you'd find your own edits there. So that helped me quite a lot with my first novel. And so I think that was really an invaluable experience. So I think I did have the first draft pretty much done at that point. But the course was designed that basically you wrote the next chapter for the next class and then you went over it and then you, you know, read the next chapter.

And that's what a lot of the other students that we kept going after the writer's group, you know, with the writer's group after the course ended, that's what we did. We all tried to make sure we had the next full chapter ready to go. And so that was the sort of the same thing. And that's another really great way of getting feedback. And if you do need that kick in the pants to keep writing, you had a deadline because you had to make sure you had some willing to read the next week. Yeah, that's true. I've never had any experience with writer groups myself.

Uh, but, uh, uh, I have heard some horror stories about it, especially, you know, I've heard some people who get those kinds of characters in the writing group that is really their there to critique other people's work to make themselves feel better. You know? Yeah. I've been in two different ones and the one was so bad that it's actually what inspired me to create the course of the ultimatefantasywritersguide because it was so unhelpful that I got angry and started questioning everything and looked it all up and said, okay, this is the really the way you're supposed to do it.

And the other one was really helpful and I miss them quite a lot and it was a fantastic experience. So yeah. Have on both sides of that horse. Oh, okay. But yeah. Okay. But I think all of that also touched upon the one of the cons of editing as you go. And that is of course that is going to take you longer to complete the first draft. That's just how it is. It is. It'll take you longer. And I still worry that if you don't get that outside help, if you're just rambling around in your own head, is this right? Is this wrong? Is this right?

And you find yourself especially the biggest clue. If you find yourself changing something and then changing it back and then changing it, and that's when you need help. You just gotta stop. Just stop full out, stop and look for help. If you find yourself doubting or doubting that you're good enough, writer get out of your head, get some help. Don't just keep circling your own wagons because you're just driving yourself crazy and it's not worth it. Trust me, it's not get help. But that is definitely a con while editing, if you're editing on your own while you're writing, you will just be circling your own little crazy thoughts and you'll not be writing anything productive.

You'll just be driving yourself insane. And if, if that issued and you could go and check that Stata kit that we have in the show notes, at least that'll, that'll get you started the bid and give you some, some inputs and feedback. Yes. Or, and come join us on Facebook and uh, yeah, you'll am at least have someone else to be like, how you're drowning, you know, raise your white flag and say you need help and we'll be there.

Jesper (23m 54s): Absolutely. Um, but I, I think, I mean did, this is slightly off topic, but it just popped up in my mind now that we were talking about it. But I do think it's worth pointing out as well, that when you are on your first book and you need some help, you know, if you're trying to join a writer's group or you're trying to find a critique partner or only one person like late, I did. It is your own responsibility to try to vet who you're listening to because it doesn't matter. And honestly, especially there in the beginning, if I think most writers are quite insecure in the beginning, at least I know I was as well.

Um, in terms of is my writing well in that, is this good enough that doesn't do anybody care about this stuff? Is this is nonsense. You know, all those kinds of questions, they haunt you, especially in the beginning. And if you get input from the wrong person, that could completely derail everything you're doing. So, so do, do, be quite careful about trying to understand who is this person who wants to give you input. So why I'm saying that is also because while the am writing Facebook fantasy group is great and you can join and you can ask your questions, just be careful if you're just starting out that you don't join the Facebook group and post a question and then you're going to get 15 different responses in the common fields.

So just be careful, you know that that that's, it might not be the type of help that you need when you're first starting out. So, so just think a bit about that.

Autumn (25m 25s): Yes. And that's very true cause I have to say if I wasn't stubborn, my am, I don't know what would've happened because my first writing group was the bad experience. And I think to me it really came down. I remember someone ripping me apart for using an adverb and then five minutes later they were praising someone for using the exact frickin same word. And you can hear it in my voice, I can hear it still. I still get angry, angry. But again, that is why I went home and I said, okay, they were not even the right genre.

I started saying, what do I have to do to write fantasy, how do I do this correctly for what I want to write? Because it was a multi-genre a writer's group. And yeah, if I hadn't been who I am and just got angry and I figured it out and I went and asked questions. But if I hadn't done that, if I had been a lot more sensitive and I'd been just hurt and confused and lost and overwhelmed, I don't know where I would've ended up. So yeah, be careful and be kind to yourself.

And if someone's not being kind to you kick them in the butt. But I mean that metaphorically, not physically or not okay. But yes. So definitely be kind and look for, you know, look for Donnelley kind advice, but good advice. And someone who, if you have a question like why do you say that? Why do you mean that? And they don't give you an answer, just blow him off. You know, you deserve to have a reason that you're being told this and that is very important. Yeah.

Okay. So let's move into a pro of editing. Only afterward. Oh, right. Well afterwards you got the book done. There you go. There's your pro. You actually have an entire manuscript.

Jesper (27m 10s): Yeah, that's true. Um, I mean, and you will be finished with that manuscript it quicker. Like you said before, you're like, like it's, it's the opposite of before of course. Um, but the con is then of course that it might be quite messy and you might need some time to clean it all up. And uh, yeah, so it's just like the opposite of the situation off before. So, and I know it's pretty frustrating isn't it? Because you see the more we go into this, the more clear it becomes that there is no clear answer.

Autumn (27m 42s): There is no clear answer God. Cause I mean if you have some really big plot holes in, you need to go back and fill them or what if, Oh my God, you missed something huge and really the whole thing got off track and you have to delete some stuff because you didn't stop and really think about this while you're writing. And especially if you're a pantser, this could be a huge issue. If you wait till the very end to finally start questioning is everything correct and going all right. Yeah. Sometimes waiting until the end isn't the best thing to do either. Unless you have a good outline and you really know you, you hit all the right spots so you fall it.

Yeah. Then at least maybe you have a hope that the book is in good shape. Mmm. Yeah. But what about those people who were then writing their first novel? You know, so just giving them pros and cons here, but you're giving any answers. So, but do we have any answers? What do you, what do you think? Do we have any answer about what, what would you recommend? You said, you said in the beginning that you had a clear point of view at first and now you're not sure. Sure. So yeah. Well, I arrive at maybe, I think for my advice for a first time writer, if you've never tackled a novel before, would be to join either writer's group, one that is preferably in your genre or to join.

You'll find a coach, find a mentor, someone who can help you through. And maybe do it in chunks, you know, maybe not every chapter, but give them, you know, you know, I love the seven steps of story structure given their whole intro, give him your whole inciting incident, give them some stuffs, then they can help guide you. I think, uh, for me, I took, you know, I have an English degree, but I went back and did two adult writing courses when I decided to take writing seriously. And that really I think helped lay some groundwork. Part of it, because I got so angry that I went and found different advice.

But the other one ended up being very helpful and a wonderful experience. So, you know, even me with an English degree, I went back and took a few more courses to get myself back in the flow. So I think for your first novel, if you're going to be serious about publishing, just you're going to need help, you're going to need you there chorus, you're going to need a mentor, a coach, someone to help guide you through that first book. It really helps. It will build your confidence and it'll definitely give you a better product. Hmm.

No. Okay, good. Whew. Don't, we're in agreement. Oh, that is so weird. A surprise. But now you know, as a, you know how many books? 1617 I've got done. No, I do tend to edit a least a little bit as I write, but it's not like grammatical, I don't worry about punctuation, but there are times, um, the books doesn't feel like it's flowing. It just, it feels like I've hit a wall, basically a writer's block and I, again, I'm a hybrid pants or plot or I have an outline.

I know where the story's going, but there's some looseness in the each chapter. And often when I hit that, it's because I hit a plot hole and there's just something in my mind that saying, Hey, Hey, you miss something and I've got to change perspective. I've got to think about it a little bit, do some brainstorming. And usually I figure it out and then it goes boom. And I'm writing really fast again. So I do go back and there have been times when I have like, Holy crap, I missed that and I've got to go back and add a chapter and I keep telling myself I can do it later. I know what's going to happen and it's no, I got to go fix it now.

I've got to go fix that character. I've got to go throw in sometimes a foreshadowing way, you know, go put that back in there now just so I don't forget, just so I can get it out of my mind and on the paper. So nowadays I do sometimes edit while I'm going because if it's a big element, if it's a plot element, if it's a character issue, I need to fix it before I go forward. Otherwise I can't go forward as well as I'd like to. Hmm.

Jesper (31m 35s): That's fair enough. Uh, I think that there's, you know, these different tiers in it, right? So you just explained, you know, the, if you only just first starting out and I agree with what you said there and then of course there is this, the stuff about when, when you have written a lot of books in light like, like you and then there was the, I think there was also a point for those people who just write, maybe wrote written like two or three novels or something because I think at that point, um, it is good to just keep in mind to get into the habit of finishing things because you need that habit going forward that, that once you start something, you also finish it.

It's not like, you know, the first novel might take you quite a long time. I mean for some people it takes years. You might be working with this critique partner or whatever you do where you take a writing course or something, but it'll take a while because you need to redo a lot of things many times too to find the right stride there. But once you do, well, let's say you get into book three union, you get into book two or three, I should say, then you probably have a lot better grasp about how do I construct a story and how do I make the story work.

Um, and there I think it becomes important that you get out of the habit you had with the first book where it took you forever because you kept redoing and re questioning and updating or whatever you want to call editing. Um, and then start learning yourself that, okay, it's, you know, it's okay if I need to fix some of the Pluff holes here and there, I guess, but I also need to get to the finish line and it cannot take me forever with book two and book three because if you want, I mean, if you're just writing for fun, that's fine.

But if you, if you want to earn money from it, you also have to put up some products. You know, you can spend three years writing every novel. No, I think your readers, especially in today's day and age where there, you know, I remember when I first started out, one book a year was okay, but there's a lot of readers looking for more than that now. And yeah, you can't take, you know, if he can get one done in six months, it's much better than waiting two years. Yeah. And I really, I struggled a lot with this am because when I got into book two and book three, um, I had a lot of problems, not editing as I went.

Uh, you know, I, I often found myself editing something like, well, not like structural or plot edits because I outline in quite detailed as, you know, autumn the details. I do Paul first book here, this is very detailed. It's like almost once I'm done with the outline, you can just fill in the blanks and the novel novel or most definitely. It's impressive. It's like, I know what's going to happen and it's very exciting. But yeah, it's, it's not much more to get that actually done as a book.

Yeah. You just need to describe the scenery and a bit, not even emotions because all the emotional stuff. So usually in the outline as well. So I know I'm an, I'm an outlier on this stuff as well. I know, so I'm not trying to advocate to the listener that you should outline in this level of detail, but why I'm saying it is just because once I have my outline and if you have a less detailed outline is perfectly fine as well. But what I'm just saying is that I don't have any plot holes because I outline and if you do the outline correctly, you shouldn't have any really glaring plot holes either.

So what I was more referring to was that when I, when I was on like book two and three, I was just doing a lot of the copy editing stuff. You know, I spend too much time making the sentences sounds just a little bit better or just correcting this and that, a even typo sometimes and stuff like that. And it was just like, it, it annoyed me. It annoyed me a lot that I spent so much time on it. Um, because I wanted to, I wanted everything to go quicker, but at the same time I felt like I, I just can't scroll past this stuff because it sucks.

You know, I too, I did to correct it. So I kept correcting it, but it wasn't until I got into dictation that that problem was fixed because as soon as I started dictating, now, you know, nowadays I just dictate a chapter 10 transcribe it into the computer and then I do a quick search and replace for all the fantasy words. So, you know, we talked about how I use dictation back in episode 59, so go back and listen to that one if you're curious. But I just do that very quick steps in replace of the fantasy words and then I just move on to dictate the next chapter.

So, because I'm not typing the words on the screen and I see the, you know, the errors there on the screen while I write, I just, I'm able to ignore the fact that, do you know these kind of, uh, well, it's just sentences as I speak when it comes out. So it needs to very much tidying up in the editing, but it doesn't bother me when I can't see it as I type it. So yeah, dictation just fixed that hit entire problem.

Autumn (36m 40s): That's really good. That's, and that is an interesting one that we didn't come up with and we were talking about dictation cause we weren't thinking about editing at the time, but that does make a lot of sense. And that's why I was actually having problems with dictation is because I, I couldn't get what you have having a Mac. I couldn't get the dragon software to then upload it and all those other fancy things. So that I, I was seeing as I'm doing something else, I was seeing what I was saying and it was horrifying because it wasn't as as smart and as well adapted to my speech pattern and punctuation and everything else.

So for me it was like, yeah, I just need to, you need to not see what it's doing because if you do you want to go fix it. And I was like, that's it. I'm going to type because I at least can put in the period where I want the period and it doesn't think I said period and Oh it's just horrible. So, but that is, it is a true, I mean I think that is definitely one of the types of editing you shouldn't do until you're done. And even then, I mean always do your content edit before you start even getting into the grammatical and the better language and all those other things you need.

There's us of other edits that happen before you get to worrying about if that commas in the right place. So those are the ones you have to be able to let go on unless you, unless you plot in much less detail as I do it. And there's nothing called a content edit. Your content edit is actually before you write this book. It's in the plot. Yeah, it's in the plot. We've been content editing before we even get to uh, writings. So it's kind of a reverse way of doing it.

Jesper (38m 19s): Yeah, I guess you could say, but it is sort of just depends on in which face you invest. The time, right? Because you can rush through a first draft and get it done really quickly and then spend two months content editing and fixing and going back and forth and fixing chapter 10 Oh wait, then chapter seven is incorrect and I need to update that. Or you can like me, I'm, I take like not full time of course, but I probably, it probably takes me like a month to plot a novel. I think I spent like a month on this book. One thing I found out incorrect. I think that's about right.

Yeah.

Autumn (38m 49s): And of course you've been waiting for me a couple of times to come back and read through and make some changes so it slows you down a little bit, but not much. He usually gives me a pretty tight deadline, so we've kept it moving pretty good. You don't make me sound horrible. It's not. It's been very exciting. So it's been fun, but definitely a different way of doing it. And I have to admit there's times am it was the story I'm working on right now that there's like, I, I should probably have done a little bit more plotting. I love knowing what happens next.

So that's kind of exciting. But I have not gone off my hybrid ways too deeply yet. No,

Jesper (39m 26s): but it, but it is a, as we just said, right? It depends on where you invest your time and uh, that's basically up to you and that's why you need to find your own way through this. But one thing I did find that it was quite interesting when I was preparing for today's episode, uh, I found some psychologists who were talking about multitasking. So, because basically when we're talking about editing while you're writing, you know, it is two different parts of the brain you're using because one part is for creation, you're being the creative writer.

And the other thing is about editing where, where basically you're being critical. So you're, you're applying your analytic mindset and being critical about what's written. And when you're switching back and forth like that, then you're basically multitasking. And these psychologists were saying that true multitasking is in fact impossible. So the best thing you can do as a human being is that you are able to be as good as switching back and forth between the tasks as quickly as possible, that that's what you could, you could sort of be good at that.

That's, I guess that's when, I mean all of this might be semantics, but I think that's basically what people mean when they say multitasking. But what the psychologist said, and this is the point of all this rambling here, what they said was that when you're multitasking, you're not being effective. So you're basically slower at what you're doing. Then if you were just focusing on one thing. So again, I'm not saying one thing is better than the other, but I do think it's valuable to just think a bit about the fact that the more you edit it while you go, the less effective you are with your time.

Okay,

Autumn (41m 9s): that makes sense. And I mean, I know there's, at my height I was writing a book while editing another book and you're right, you even then, Hey, I'm insane. I highly admit that. But it worked really well because of my, like I think I would edit usually first, which cause I was sitting down and getting into my writing routine. I was kind of in an analytical, you know, was coming off of work, which I've a very scientific job at the time. So I would have that kind of mindset and you do that for half an hour and then I would kind of get into the creative like, you know, you start getting excited about words and language and where the story is going and the next thing you know, then I'd write for an hour and again, they were separate and it was kind of gearing one up for the other.

If my brain was awake enough to be analytical, it was good at editing. If I was, you know, and more creative mindset, you, you kind of have the juices flowing. You got to have that drive and inspiration. And if it wasn't there, you had to try to manufacturer it basically. But they are definitely two different types of mindsets. And I would know they didn't mesh. You had to do one than the other nuts. You couldn't do both at the same time.

Jesper (42m 22s): No, and I mean it's, it's not about editing Sur writing but, but in general, at least I, I also feel like I, there's a limit to how much creative stuff I can do in a day. And I usually I have to start out doing the creative stuff early in the day because late in the day my mind is just like, I can force myself to do creative work, but it's not as good as when I'm more awake for a lot of bag of bed in the morning, you know, are they in the morning? I am good at the creative stuff. I can, but I can only do a couple of hours then I'm sort of out of my creative juices and then I need to default to some marketing or publishing work that I can Maul do without thinking much about it.

I mean, I've been doing that kind of, you know, the business stuff I've been doing for so many years that I can do, that's kind of thing without having to spend too much energy on it. So I can do that if I'm tired. But creative stuff like plotting for example, that's also why it takes a month. Because if I could plot eight hours a day, that would be a different matter. But even if I have the time to do that eight hours a day, which I don't, but if I have, then I don't think I would be able to because I would run out of steam.

Autumn (43m 32s): My, well, that makes sense. And I mean I took a leadership course and we plotted our, not just energy level, but what we were good at doing during the course of a day and creative in the morning and analytical in the afternoon is actually a very typical type of situation. So that makes sense.

Jesper (43m 48s): Yeah, indeed. So I guess all we can say share that. Uh, we shared some inputs and things to think about and uh, you need to make up your own mind.

Autumn (44m 1s): Yeah. And I think though, there's some pretty good take-home advice that if you're a new writer, probably try to find some outside help and maybe get some editing, you know, go by chapters or chunks of your book and get feedback. But once you get past two book, two or three, try to just get it done without worrying about editing. Get, get yourself used to finishing a novel, finish that first trilogy. That's a good thing. That should be your goal. And once you get beyond that, you know, might start, you know, making sure you get the plotting.

You might go back and edit a little bit as you go because, well, let's just, you know, you'll finish. You just know you have to get it right and it'll be a little bit better when you get to the end. That's my take home message.

Narrator (44m 44s): All right, so next Monday I have one of, if not the biggest name in the indie author community on for an interview because I'm going to talk to Joanna Penn next week. If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Jesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month.

You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 64 – The Cost of Producing a Novel

Have you ever wondering how much it actually costs to produce a novel when taking into account editing, cover design, book formatting and everything else?

Or are you an experienced author, looking for a benchmark to evaluate if you're paying too much?

In episode 64 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper, gives you the complete overview. All the expenses shared on a per task basis.

Links from this episode: 

Do you want to learn how to write your own blurbs and save the money spend on hiring someone?

Find the guidebook here: https://www.jesperschmidt.com/books/how-to-write-a-fantasy-book-description/

Check out the amazing author courses offered by C.S. Lakin: https://cslakin.teachable.com/?affcode=26347_xvkrj3md (Note: this is an affiliate link)

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt. Hello, I'm Jesper and I'm autumn.

This is episode 64 of the amwritingfantasy podcast. And uh, well money is always an important topic

Jesper (43s): and especially when you're starting out as a new author, you might be wondering how much does it actually cost to produce a novel? Well that's what we're going to look into today. And for the more experienced authors out there, you can use this episode maybe like as a benchmark to see how your cost compare.

Autumn (1m 2s): Yes, I, you know, this is kind of a scary episode for me cause I don't know, I think I would have been fly it as a new author getting into this, but as a port, yeah, it's good. I don't know. Have a base to have. This is not a free, but as I say, this is one of the best businesses to get into because your upfront cost is fairly low.

Jesper (1m 26s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was just about to mention that that's what we said on what was it, the previous owner, maybe two episodes back or something like that. When we, when we talked about compared to other businesses where you had to shell out like 50 K just to get started. Like we're nowhere near that. So in terms of context towards other businesses and types of businesses, the money amounts we're going to talk about here is fairly low. But of course I do understand if, if you're, if you're short on cash in general or you are, you have a limited budget, then it might, yeah.

Yeah. The point is not to scare you.

Autumn (2m 0s): That's, I'm trying to say that's a void that, that, how was your week? Let's get into something much more fun.

Jesper (2m 8s): Yeah. Well speaking of fun, actually, uh, over the weekend I listened to episode 61 where you had the interview with Alexa am. So that was really, I was really good conversation. I was really entertained.

Autumn (2m 21s): Oh good. I'm glad you enjoy it. I love talking to her and actually the publishing summit is happening, um, as we're recording this, so when it's released it'll have been over. But it's been so much fun. I love her summit and it was, uh, I'm glad the podcast was turned out as well as it did. Yeah. The, the woman women taking over the podcast worser. It'd be one to happen.

Jesper (2m 46s): Yeah. Apparently. So I see her, I'm lucky that I got to come back here, this recording now. Absolutely.

Autumn (2m 52s): We have a good partnership. We never argue. This is kind of funny. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But actually something else I wanted to mention, a funny thing that also took place over the weekend was am. It was a movie that I watched, but not like a normal movie. This was only two minutes long. And, uh, the title of this movie was Pam spy vs six pack boy.

Yeah. This was, uh, this is my two sons. So they spent like five, four or five hours yesterday and recording this movie that they made. They spent four or five hours recording and editing it into a two minute movie. So the spend almost all day doing it. Uh, and uh, so it was my youngest son, he played the role of pants by, which was the super hero. And then he also played the role a six pack boy, which was the super villain. Although I know that this usually, it's not very charming to hear about other people's kids and what they're doing.

But, but it was quite funny because like a minute into the movie, well that's half the movie, but then we saw the reason why he was called camp S boy because his pants fell off right when he was fighting the villain. Yeah, I was, I dunno. It was just so funny. Adorable. And yeah, I don't even have kids. So I definitely lived through yours. But it's adorable in it. And from a practical point of view, it kept them busy all day. This is like win-win.

Yeah. That they spend all day. And at some point my wife went down to to the rooms and asked her, Hey, do you guys want to play a board game with, with me and dad? And they were like, well, we don't have time right now. We're just doing this movie. I was like, okay. But it seems like, yeah. Well, but I think it was a tragedy that movie because it actually ended with pants boy being taking away in handcuffs while while they're willing was sitting there eating popcorn that was out of movie.

Well, I think they're gonna have to work on a sequel. That's all there is to it. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Oh, I think it might win like a YouTube reward. You might have to show that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I usually try not to share videos live with my kids and whatnot, but uh, but it was, it was quite funny. But, and again, usually parents feel that their own kids are much more funny than other people find their kids. So maybe it's just me finding it funny as it sounds.

Adorable. That's great. How about you? Oh well, nothing quite as much fun. But uh, Kevin progress has been made that we actually have windows and door and for the first time ever we are heating the room that we've added on to this cabin. So you can like work in there with like without major coats and gloves and stuff on. And actually I just did the flooring today, so it's starting to look like a real room. Nice.

Yeah. How much work do I have left to do there? Um, well installation will be exciting. That's hopefully coming tomorrow and the next day. And then it's really doing the interior walls and my husband happens to be an electrical, he did am technical high school, so he's an electrician, electrical apprentice. So he's been doing the wiring. Um, I do all the woodworking. He does the wiring, so it's kind of fun that way. So he's put the new panel in and all the electrical outlets. So you know, it, it doesn't sound to me, it's like we're past the big, you know, no more heavy lifting.

It's like some interior paneling. And then of course the outside am vinyl. Actually, we're not doing vital, we're doing Cedar shakes, am, all of that. It's still a little bit of work, but I'm also at the point where I'm like, it is March. And I made a promise to myself that come March 1st, the cabin could not be my entire life building this thing. So it's only half days now, only in the morning. And then the afternoon I have like, you know, this whole writing job thing that we do together. Yeah.

So, uh, now doing half days, so it's still gonna take a little bit of time, but it's going really, really well and I can't wait til we're putting in the shelves for the kitchen area and it's, it's coming soon. Right. Do you need to do painting and stuff like that as well? Um, it's mostly a wood interior, but I do want to do something other than wood on wood, on wood Brown. So I think I'm going to maybe do a little bit of color in the kitchen area because I like kitchens. They're like one of my favorite rooms in the house, so it'll have to be kind of fun. Don't you just, uh, check, decorate the walls with printouts, offenses, you maps.

That's actually a pretty good idea. Do a de Copan. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. That's something to think about. That advice is completely free. Oh, thank you. It could be, yeah. Could be done. If you could do that. Then you have to send me pictures. I, I have to get permission since it's not technically my cabin, but I think they could go for it. Right. Oh, week on the internet with the amwritingfantasy.

Podcast so before I have something else to share from internet this week, then, uh, I just want to get the most important thing out of the way first.

Jesper (8m 21s): And that is of course to thank all of our new patron supporters. Yes. I have a long list of names here. Oh, excellent. And, uh, maybe before I do this, uh, I'm sorry if I put your, any of your names. It's really not, it's not on purpose if I do, but uh, but here it goes. So thank you to E M the Ross Bernie virus. I think Hannah's Hannah's horribly sooner.

Andrew Davis arrest moose Garrett. They key the DKI or something like that. I think it's German. Yeah. Matthew Philips, Roger Walker, Colleen Baldwin, Brandon harden, Craig Sanders, Eric and Linda lecture. Thank you so much everybody for joining us.

Autumn (9m 16s): Patron. Thank yes. Loved seeing all of our new patrons and uh, can't wait to meet them and talk about what they're writing and just, you know, see what their questions and stuff are when they interact on the mini Petri on post. We put up every single week. So welcome. Welcome to the podcast and welcome to patriarchy. Yeah.

Jesper (9m 36s): And for the rest of you, check the link in the show notes. We are keeping the podcast ad free because we feel that that makes for a much better listen. So, uh, but do keep in mind that we do rely on the patron supporters to justify the time we spent recording this or so please consider becoming one of our backers. It really makes such a

Autumn (9m 56s): difference to us. Yeah. And even if it just starts at a dollar a month, I that's not that bad and we really do appreciate it.

Jesper (10m 4s): Yeah. So link in the show notes. But the other thing I wanted to mention as well, uh, was that in the amwritingfantasy Facebook group, uh, Nina posted something that I really wanted to share my reflections on. Oh, OK. and, uh, what you can of course pits in here too. Autumn Oh, absolutely. Very welcome to do so well is because Nina is a dangerous Arthur

Autumn (10m 29s): like me. And, uh,

Jesper (10m 32s): she posted a question that I think is really relevant because she was wondering if she should write in Danish or in English.

Autumn (10m 40s): And, uh,

Jesper (10m 41s): I thought I would bring this up here because many of our of our listeners aren't native English speakers. So in this case it's about Danish versus English of course, but you can just substitute Danish with any other language that might be your native language. For for the listener here. Right. So, um, in the post Nina points out herself that the Danish market is small. Um, but she's also speculating that there is less competition. So of course you could have a point there. Yeah, you can get that pretty quick.

Yeah. And she also says that, um, she does not want to find a publisher. She wants to become an indie author. Uh, so here in lies the question, should she write the book in Danish and then get it translated afterwards or should she write in English from

Autumn (11m 30s): they get go. Right. So I don't know if you want to share your thoughts on why I should I do mine first. I was gonna say, I think my thoughts are going to be tainted because I know you write in English and I kind of think I know why. So I'm gonna let you go ahead and go first and I'll see if I have something to add. Since I am a native English speaker. So I kinda had an easy yeah, I, I mean when

Jesper (11m 55s): there was a few things here, right? So if you, if she was, if Nina had said in her post that I'm looking to be traditionally published, then she could easily write in Danish. I think if she was looking to find a Danish publisher who will get her book into all the national bookstores here in Denmark and they will take care if it sells enough, they'll take care of translation and putting it into other countries and all of that stuff. Then I think if, if she wants to write in Danish and issue feels like this is uh, this is what I prefer, then go for it.

Um, but once you saying in her post that she wants to be a self published author, she wants to use the online platforms like Amazon and so forth. Then I think, and again here you can substitute Danish for any other language, but I think you need to do to do the bit of market research and, and see how big is the market really when you're looking at, for example, from Amazon's perspective, uh, if you put a Danish things, uh, titled and, and written book up on Amazon, how many people are actually buying that as an ebook from Amazon?

And I think you will find that the Danish market is, is very, very tiny. You know, even even ebook reading is not that spread out here in the Nordics or penetrated in the Nordic market as you might think. Uh, many people do not buy from Amazon. Uh, if you're looking at like average Joe, you know, in, in Denmark. Um, so in that case I would say then you a thousand times better off writing in English, uh, because the translation is expensive as well.

So if even if you write it in a Danish and then wants to translate it, it, that's going to be quite expensive to do afterwards. So yeah, I would think right in English, uh, that's, that's why I did it because I agree the Danish market is small and yes, there is less competition and yes, if you write in English and upload and non-Amazon, there's a lot of competition that is also true. But at this point of time, at least the, the amount of Danish readers going to Amazon to find a Danish book is extremist man.

Try to just do a search for Danish books on Amazon. You find almost nothing. And I was gonna say,

Autumn (14m 12s): when you niche down to a Danish book written a fantasy Danish book written in Danish, um, yeah, your, your topology talking a very small percentage of readers you're going to look out for. And so writing an English, um, you might be, have more competition, but you're also gonna have a lot more opportunity to find readers because it is one of the most widely used languages on the planet, whether it should be or shouldn't be. It, it just simply is.

Jesper (14m 41s): Yeah. Yeah. So, so at least I thought I would want her to share a bit of reflection on that because, uh, I found it, uh, well, first of all, she was staying, he sorta treated of course attention.

Autumn (14m 52s): Yeah. But, but I, I think it's relevant for other, other people who also, uh, not native English speakers like myself. Absolutely. And though speaking of questions and writing, I wanted to give a shout out to Susan Laken and also take up, let people know that she has ever really collaborative. Do you that I wish I could go and do, but I'm unfortunately tied up, but she right. Does a writing for life workshop, um, that she hosts. And Susan was, if you don't want to remembers, which hopefully you should.

She was a wonderful guest on our podcast that you interviewed Yesper a few months back, so she's probably don't remember the episode bumper, looked it up beforehand, so sorry. But she is actually running a fantasy and world-building retreat for writers in South Lake Tahoe, which is dropped it gorgeous area is a week long retreat or the mornings they talk about tips on how to write well and world build and characters and then the afternoon you go in, right.

And if you hit a problem like you know, everyone does, you can like raise your hand or go over and ask one of these three bestselling authors that are one of the hosts of the workshops. So that's going on for the whole week and we're going to have a link to that in our show notes so you can go check it out. She says that fills up very quickly. But she, we wanted to give a shout out because she was such a wonderful guests, did some great tips for us. And, uh, I think she's an awesome teacher and she's got some other great woman, Catherine brand camp and Rachel star Thompson are the other two authors who are going to be hosting it and teaching at the retreat.

So if anyone's looking yeah, looking to get away from the family or I guess you could possibly S as you can get a double room. So if you want to take the family boy you want to get away and just write for a week and do some fantasy writing this might be the place for you run Forrest run for us. Um, remind me, this is the one where it's an affiliate link, is that right? I believe it is, but uh, it might not be, I'll have to check. We do have an affiliate link with her, but I'm not sure if it goes to this one or not.

So there's a chance this might get us some money, but there's a chance it doesn't, so it might not, but anyway, Joe's just a full transparency here that it might be an affiliate link. So we might earn a few, a few dollars if you buy a on, um, uh, by our link here. But of course we are mentioning it because we have talked to Susanna, we know her and we know she's doing good things. So check it out if that's something for you

Narrator (17m 38s): and onto today's stuff,

Autumn (17m 41s): how much does it cost to produce a novel ton of time of course. And a willpower. Yes. It was to say, I think this is am possibly less frightening than figuring out how much you get paid per hour for writing a novel. That's something you should never ever calculate. Just do um, not because you're going to be rich unless you happen to be Neil Gaiman, J K Rowling's or George RR Martin.

Yeah, I actually,

Jesper (18m 14s): do you remember when I was first starting out? This was actually one of the questions I was asking myself and I, I remember looking up different YouTube videos from different authors talking about this stuff. And the more I search, the more varied answers I got to them. I think that's it's, yeah, it's just like with all the content that is out there in this day and age on the internet, that's unfortunately something you just have to navigate. So I guess we can just say the same thing applies here, right? I mean we can only, we can share how we view things here and, and from our personal experience how much we are paying to produce novels, but I'm sure you can find, contradicted her into brumation out there if you start searching for it.

So, uh, yeah, you'll just have to make up your own mind who you're listening to I guess.

Autumn (19m 1s): Yes. I suppose I, I thought we were going to say this is the end all be all. This is the answer you're looking for, but no, it is very true that I do. There are lots of ways of looking at this and some of these things, um, you know, everyone's different. How you're right is different. Uh, the resources you might have at your disposal. Maybe being a mom is a bestselling editor, and in that case, you know you're, what you're going to end up charging or for editing might be a lot different than what we're going to list out here. So you don't know. Yeah,

Jesper (19m 29s): I think we, we're trying to here at least to shoot for, for some sort of middle ground averages on what things costs. You can always find something cheaper and maybe the quality is also not to, yeah, maybe I was gonna say a nasty word there, but, uh, maybe the quality is not very good then. But you can also sometimes find something that is much more expensive that we're going to share here. And usually at least if it comes to editing, usually price and quality goes hand in hand, but not always.

You can also sometimes pay quite a lot of money for somebody who is not really that good. So, but that's a different topic. We actually talked about editing in episode 60. Am so you can go back and listen to that one. In if you want all the details. I think we're just gonna stick to cost with this episode.

Autumn (20m 20s): Yes. And I think going on with the expense too, I think there's always a point of diminishing returns where you can pay more, but you're, what you're getting for that little bit of more better quality is probably less than the lower area where you pay $100 more and you get a huge improvement over something that was half the cost. So yeah, we'll keep that in mind. So there's always a point where you're paying lots and lots and lots for only a little bit better than something that's slightly cheaper.

So I think we're going to be a good point. Yes, we're gonna we're going to go for that middle of the road where it's a solid, this was something you're going to help you and, and this is about what you should reasonably expect to spend if you are looking for quality service. Yeah.

Jesper (21m 7s): Okay. So do we want to start out with the editing? We already sort of touched upon that.

Autumn (21m 11s): I guess. So I was going to say, how far in do you want to go? I mean, technically you could say everything from what you're writing on is an expense to the program you're writing in as an expense. But are we going to get that particular, we're going to assume people already have a, some kind of device to write on or a piece of paper and a pencil.

Jesper (21m 32s): Yes. I think my assumption was at least people already have a computer and they at least, I mean, if they want to invest in, in Scribner like we talked about in the past episode, I mean Scribner cost almost nothing. What is it like 30 $40 or something,

Autumn (21m 48s): five. And it gets up to now it's very little and totally worth it.

Jesper (21m 53s): But yeah, so, so that all or you can always just use the Microsoft word or paint pages if you on the Mac or whatever, you know. So I'm assuming that people have a computer that they can write on, right? So this is more like producing a not a novel. What does that cost, uh, providing you have a computer to write on?

Autumn (22m 12s): Yes, I remember. I, I might not do as much research before we get on the podcast, but I'm very detailed oriented. So I had a, I had to find out what the ground level was. Yes.

Jesper (22m 24s): All right. So, well and so at least. Okay, so ground level, the topics I have here is editing, cover design, formatting, blip, writing, copyright. That's sort of the topics that I have. And maybe you have some other ones as well. That sounds good

Autumn (22m 40s): about what I was thinking as well. So those are, those are truly no matter what the expenses. So basically we're going to say that you were skipping like writing courses am help coaching. We're going to say basically that you have written at least a manuscript and how do you take that and produce a novel and how much does that cost? Does that sound about right?

Jesper (23m 2s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, yeah, we're not talking about the cost of acquiring a computer or taking a course about how to write and all that, but so it is more like, okay, you have your, you're, you're S, you want to write a novel and you want to know how much is this gonna cost me? So of course that means that as well, that we are factoring editing costs, which is before you've done with the novel. Right. So, so how much, how much this guy just going to cost me to produce the thing? Yes. I'm providing, I either I have a computer and either I have not, uh, Oh, I have already attended any maybe writing courses or whatever I wanna do.

But that's sort of beside the point. Yeah.

Autumn (23m 43s): You've listened to all of our podcasts and you're already expert,

Jesper (23m 46s): but, well, let's say we're going to have we got,

Autumn (23m 53s): yeah. Yeah. All right, so we're gonna, we're going to start, the education part is really important, really is, it really is, but we're going to assume, okay, you made it through that and we're going to assume you made it through. You know, you've got, you're getting some worth novel. So what it's going to really take to take that rough draft, turn it into something worthy of being read by a widely published audience and you know, yeah. How old is get out there on the world polished and perfect. Well as perfect as it can be, let's go for it. So editing is a good place to start. I agree. Let's start with that because if you can get through editing you, you're never going to get to the next step anyway.

So let's go there.

Jesper (24m 30s): No, no, that's actually true. But uh, yeah, so maybe just to summarize what, what we said in terms of cost from episode 60 so if we are looking at an edit that includes a developmental edit, we talked about that in episode 60 so go back there and listen if, if you want the details. But if we including that into the cost, then as we sat on that episode, you can probably expect to pay something like five to $7,000 for the editing stages and that, that means developmental edit, copy editing, proofreading the whole lot.

You know, all of it. Maybe five to seven grand. Um, yeah, that feels about right. If anyone hears something typing, we

Autumn (25m 15s): going to try live math. We already joked about this being an impossibility. I am keeping notes about how much we save for everything. So excuse any typing.

Jesper (25m 24s): So let's say five to seven grand for that. Uh, and then we also have a different variation where we could say maybe you don't need a developmental edit. So if you written some novels already or you've taken some courses or something that that means that you have a grasp of bout how to structure the novel already. So if we exclude the developmental edit, which is by far the most expensive one, and you can probably bring the cost down to somewhere between 1500 to 3,500, somewhere in between there.

Autumn (25m 56s): All right, that sounds very reasonable. And about, yeah, the going rate for a really good professional proof edit and making sure the grammar, all those are correct. Definitely in that ballpark too. Okay. So no disagreements so fun though. No, I've, well do those are good, I think. I do think there's sometimes if you are in with an editor for a long time, you might be able to get away with cheaper. But again, maybe you'd have to have a deal and maybe got in at someone's early rates or something, but we're going to say, yeah, 1500 that's a good rate for what it costs to get a good edit these days, especially on something as long as a fantasy novel a thousand words, 100,000 words to 150,000 and making sure they've gone over it a couple times, they're not just using Grammarly.

Yeah. This is not cheap.

Jesper (26m 48s): No indeed. Um, but of course you ask as we just, as you can see that the difference between five to seven K two 1500 to 3,500, that it's a huge, I mean, the developmental edit is so expensive. It's, it's insane. It is insane.

Autumn (27m 3s): And I do think a lot of people do, a little novelists, authors look at the cost of edits and go, Oh my goodness. And it is probably one of the biggest upfront costs before you ever publish. Yeah, for sure. But it's what you need. You do not want those early reviews. All saying, Oh my gosh, I couldn't get through it. There was an edit, you know, errors on every single page. There's going to be an error somewhere in your novel. No matter how much you pay, I can guarantee it. I've seen it in published novels put out by, you know, the really big publishers. I've still found errors on paperbacks and hardbacks.

It happens. It does happen,

Jesper (27m 39s): but I can't, can I just say something a bit self-serving here as well? Because if you're comparing those two numbers we just talked about, let, let's go with the cheaper numbers. Even. So let's say five K versus 1500 K. so what if you just took a writing cost like the one we have, for example, for $600 and then you just saved yourself, what is it like three and a half thousand dollars between 1500 and 50,000 right? So you can save $3,500 versus spending 600 so, but I don't know.

For me that's no bueno.

Autumn (28m 16s): $600 and you'll never hopefully has to pay for development at, uh, again. So you're saving thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. If you take a course and learn how to do this,

Jesper (28m 28s): it's huge. I mean, at the end of the day, you don't have to take our cross, but my point is just that if you, if you spend some money on learning things by taking some good courses, you connected to save yourself a ton of money and it's well worth the money to take a course and instead of shelling out lunch lesson of money on developmental edits. But that's just my point of view. But make up your mind for that. Again, you're putting in his time. It's worth it. Yeah. Okay. So, so by far the biggest expense that's editing the next big expense and probably the only other big expense you ha you're going to have is to cover.

Um, but as you are our covid designer or and you also the expert on this or what would you say in terms of costs and prices?

Autumn (29m 15s): Well it will be depending on if you need a paper bag wrap or if you're just getting an ebook cover. I do recommend if you think you're going to do a paper back, just go ahead and get the whole paper back one done because then you can use the, the full image for advertising, which is fantastic. So for a paper paperback wrap, you can go to, there's a ton of Facebook groups and cover art groups that are going on that are doing pre maids. Even with a little bit of commissioner work, some tweaks that can get you a cover for as little, uh, individual cover, not a paper rap can be as cheap as 50 bucks to up to 150 for just the ebook cover and paperback wraps can go from three to probably 800 depending on what you want to put in there and how individualistic and how much hand painting you need to do.

But it's, to me, it's a lot, but it's not that much because you're getting something that is literally the first impression of your urban novel and also represents your novel all. All your months of work, all the expense that you've put into your blood, sweat and tears is going to be condensed into one image and you better love it and you better make it marketable. So you're going to want to pay for this one.

Jesper (30m 31s): Yeah, the, the covid is insanely important. Um, and and so with the cover designer that you're choosing, uh, that they know what they're doing because one, it's not really about being a graphic designer because that's not even good enough. It has to be somebody who, uh, used to doing book covers and thumbnail covers for Amazon and stuff like that so they know what is working, what do you need to put on that cover to make it convert into book sales. So it is insanely important. And even just doing the market research for your niche, John rhe it's either whether someone does fantasy or is doing paranormal romance, the covers change hugely and you want to fit in.

But you also want to say stand

Autumn (31m 14s): out in a wonderful way. It's, it's tough but it's part of why I love it. It's a challenge. I like challenges, but it is definitely, you don't want to just go in there. Um, if you don't know what to look for in a cover, don't just go into a group and randomly choose a cover that looks okay. I see some horrible font issues where I could do a whole podcast on fonts alone. So we're not going there. I'm a total fund addict. I admit it. I'm not seeking help. I refuse to get help.

I drink tea and I'm a fantastic and I am proud of both. So that's the word goes. Oh. So yeah, my, I'm going to say paperback rep. go with a paperback rap. If you most you want to do a paper back, they're not that hard to format. Um, and we'll be talking about formatting in a few minutes, but go with a price for a formatting for a paperback wrap or book cover for paperback wrap. And I'd say three to $800 of 500 as a solid middle of the way that you will get a probably a very, very nice cover by someone who knows what they're doing.

And honestly, that price has come down a lot, uh, over the years because there's a lot more people out there doing it. And again though now you have to sit just like with edits, you have to sift through a lot of people who put out their shingle and say they know what they're doing and might not know what they're doing. So keep that in mind.

Jesper (32m 35s): Uh, it's, it's, it's a bit tough one. Uh, I would also have said 500 is probably where I would aim. Um, but especially with covers as difficult as well because you can also swing the other into the other direction with the pendulum here because there are some cover designers who chats like $1,500 for a cover and, or even more sometimes, but, and no doubt that by far most of these artists who are able to, um, to chat this message because they are really, really good at what they're doing.

But I still have this am point of view that spending $1,000 extra on the cover, I mean you, you can find really good artists that will do a cover for $500 and I'm not sure that, I dunno, I'm just not convinced that the return of investment is worth to shell out three times as much. So, but yeah, I don't know. Mileage may vary but, but I'm just a bit more on the cautious side when it comes to cost on cover design is it is insanely important like we said, but is it worth paying three times as much as you have to pay to get that just a bit better cover designer to do it?

Fi I, I don't think so. But that's up to you do that. No, I don't think so. And there's some, let's settle on $500 for this one, right? 500 sounds good. And I was going to say one of my favorite cover artists and he does a lot more grim dark. So I don't ever, I probably will never buy one of his covers, but I'm like a fan total fan girl. I've talked with them and gotten tips from a J Calloway. He is amazing. Facebook group. He does a pre meet every week and to buy his premiums are usually 150, and to commission him as like 600 bucks.

And there you go. Yeah, that's a really solid price. I keep telling him he's way too cheap for what he does, but he's happy with it. So there you go. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So book formatting. So of course, uh, once you are done with all this stuff and you're ready to get into the publishing stuff, you also need to format the book. So it looks really good on, uh, as an ebook. And, uh, we've talked about this before to be honest. I mean, you can get vellum, I think that's $200.

Is that right? If you're going to only for Mac users, yeah, it's a, yeah. If you're gonna get the one that also does paperbacks, it's 200 bucks. Okay. Yeah. So that's an obvious a choice. You know, it's a one time off, $200 and then you're good to go forever. Um, you can also use Scribner. We talked about that in episode 54, but it is not a very good formatting tool like rolls. So seven in episode 54. So, uh, actually when I first started out, I used a professional formatting service, uh, and I just looked it up earlier today because I couldn't remember how much I paid for it.

But back then I paid $164 for formatting of both ebook and paperback. Um, and that included some customized, the chapter headings and stuff that, uh, but this was back in 2015, 2016 so I'm not quite sure what they would chat today, but I think chances are that is probably not cheaper.

Autumn (35m 50s): Um, and I've done some formatting for folks and they were pretty, they were a really image heavy ones. And so I was formatting images and so they ended up being, you know, three to 500. But those were, you know, again, they were not a fantasy typical fantasy novel where it's put together and it's fine. But somewhere in, yeah, probably 400 if you're gonna pay for someone else to do it, you might expect up to 400 is probably not unreasonable. No. Yeah. So in that case, velum is probably a better choice if you're on a Mac.

Yes. Yeah. And so yeah, that friendly. Yeah, indeed. So what do we want to go with as a hard price here? Say vellum for 200 do you want to go for 300 assuming that? Yeah, let's, let's go for the cheap one. I'd say $200 for a villain. We keep it on the cheap side. Right? Which assuming Gil get a used Mac computer because they're wicked expensive, but otherwise this is a really cheap, a cheap option. If you can format all your own books, look at us. I mean we've done 20 over 20 between us.

Am yeah, that's a lot of money saved by only spending $200 once. Yeah.

Jesper (36m 58s): And of course then the Ninja trick here is to do Mac in the cloud. So if you're on a PC, you, you create a Mac in the cloud and then you actually have a Mac computer in the cloud. So you and you load vellum onto that one and then you can use vellum even though you're on a PC. So that's the Ninja trick.

Autumn (37m 14s): That is so amazing. Yeah.

Jesper (37m 17s): Uh, okay. So the next two ones, a is optional ones that I just included in case people want to do that. Um, so the first one is blurp writing so this is of course something you could do yourself. And uh, I have a guide book on how to write fantasy blurbs, but, but otherwise it's something you can do for yourself. But if you want some to pay some body to do it, I think you should expect to pay around $300 for a blurb

Autumn (37m 48s): if you don't want to do it done professionally. I don't think that that sounds about right. Yeah. In I mean, yeah, this is something if you can, you know, get your guidebook and that'll give you some great tips. You can get feedback and Facebook groups like our amwritingfantasy Facebook group, those are all great places to get some help. And you know, no matter what, I honestly I think sometimes tastes change and it always helps to go back and revisit earlier books to then see if you can tweak them and improve them because yeah, you pick up, you get better as you get, as you can do this more.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I'll, I'll add a link to that guide book, uh, in the, in the description or show note she, I should say. Um, of course that's, that's less than 10 bucks. So that's, that's going to be cheap. 10 bucks versus 300 that is a pretty, in this, again, this will solve all your future book. Blurbing uh, that'll definitely is a life, a savings right there by date.

Jesper (38m 50s): So, and then the final one, that's also an optional one, but if you do want to do a copyright registration, the last time I checked, I think it costs $35. I'm not mistaken.

Autumn (39m 1s): Say it was either 25 or 35. It wasn't that expensive, surprisingly. But again, a lot of times that only protects you in certain countries, possibly not worldwide. And some places, you know, if, if you can prove that you were the first originator, you probably covered technically anyway, or at least in the countries where it wouldn't be covered, they don't care. So there's not much you can do about it anyway. Yeah.

Jesper (39m 30s): Yeah. I mean, I think for the most part why you would consider a copyright registration is, is not to go to court with somebody and fight about it would be this and that. Because at the end of the day, it's going to be difficult. International used to fight your copyright registration anyway, but the main reason why I would want to do it am would be too, I, I'm Danish, I should know, but I would get a U S copyright registration because the main thing that I wasn't concerned about is, for example, if, if, if Amazon, they run their butts once in a while across the am, across their website.

Right? So let's say they catch you on, all of a sudden you get an email from Amazon saying somebody else's claiming that this book is their book. So am unless you can prove that the it is your book, we're going to shut down your account. And as an author, that's a pretty damn scary thing. It is. So that was why I would have one just so that I could just email it off to Amazon and say, here's the copyright registration. It is my book and a story. Right. So just for that, I, that's why I would do it. Um, but yeah, otherwise I'm not intending to go to court to fight people about, uh, yeah, you're going to spend a lot of time, money and effort doing that for probably no, no real benefit of gain afterwards.

But yeah, and it's funny, it's just to make sure your Amazon account is not shutdown. That's pretty important.

Autumn (40m 53s): Funny story though. I do remember once I was re-publishing, um, I think my debut, my novel born of water and they did because it is Permafree and widely available in so many places and I'm sure it's been pirated pirated. I've pulled it off of a few websites, I've gotten them shut down where it was pirated. So I, they did, Amazon actually did ask me to prove it. It was my book and I, I don't think I really, I was just more surprised and I'm like, well, of course it's mine. I've wrote it here and I did this and I added this and I just kind of did a little snippy reply and they're like, okay.

So, um, yeah, it wasn't quite as scary as you mentioned, but looking back at, and I'm like, I can't believe I was like, what are you talking about? Of course it's my book. So I think it's not that easy today to be, it was a while ago and it is a thing that can happen if you do have a book that, you know, mine's been out since 2012, it's been Permafree for a very long time. So yeah, sometimes there. I want to know what's the story with that and is it really yours?

If 30 bucks can save you that day, it might be worth it. It might be. All right. So is that every, I mean calculate all them? I did. I was going to say the only thing we didn't really throw in there is like advertising, which I think that's fair because I can change every month depending on AMS ads, but do consider that this does not include advertising and you're going to probably want to budget at least a hundred bucks, maybe a month to, you know, two three 500 whatever you can put into it. You're going to probably have advertising costs. So consider that as an author as well.

But I ended up everything we have. So without editing because that's our big variable. It is 1020 $5 so if you count an editing on the cheaper end, if you don't need a development edit, you could be paying 2,525 to 4,525 or if you do need that developmental edit and you don't want to just, you know, go buy a course and learn to do it yourself would be $6,000 and 25 cents or $26,025 or up to $8,025 so those are, you know, your ranges.

So maybe around 8,000 for everything versus what do we say? Starting a new business at 50 K this is a lot cheaper. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. And again, even the lower end, the 2,500 that is a lot, but it's also really not that bad. If you can figure out, you know, the development edit and again, you can figure out some of the student if you don't need to do the blurb because you learn how to do it or you go buy the book or you go by vellum and new format once and then you don't have to pay for any of your other formatting.

That's, you know, it's really not that bad. Oh, okay.

Jesper (43m 46s): And I, I think in most cases, if we just do like a blanket value as such, I think most people would say that the cost about three to 4,000 to produce a novel. So, um, as we, as we've laid out here, you can do it a bit cheaper

Autumn (44m 1s): and you could also do it a lot more expensive, but I mean,

Jesper (44m 5s): it is going to cost you money to produce a novel. So, so that's how it is. But, uh, yeah, I, I hope, uh, both the new writers out there got something out of this, uh, in terms of at least you get some visibility on how much it cost, but also for experienced or existing writers who already published books. Uh, maybe it gave you a bit of benchmarking and maybe you've got a bit of ideas about whether you, you will have some really good deals already or if you're paying much for some

Autumn (44m 32s): of the services that you are buying. Uh, but uh, yeah, the step was the aim, uh, to, to give a bit of perspective. Yeah. I feel like am between our partnership and having a longterm editor and the fact that I'm a graphic designer, I'm doing really well. So can I count this in my taxes now though, on what I should have spent? Yeah. I hope I'm not going to start receiving invoices from new. Fair enough. You help with advertising?

We're good? Yeah. Okay, good. Alright, so next Monday we're going to discuss a bit more about editing and this time how much you should be editing while you are writing.

Narrator (45m 19s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 63 – How much should you read while writing a book?

The advice goes "To be a writer, you need to read."

That's great, but how much should you be reading while writing and exactly what sorts of things?

Autumn and Jesper break down this sage advice with some practical tips, a bit of insight, and even a dose of statistics!

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello. I am Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is episode 63 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and we are going to discuss how

Narrator (41s): much authors should read when

Jesper (43s): writing and I think to should become quite interesting. It is. It's a, it'll be a fun one to debate because I know what they say, I know what I do and I know what I want to do. So this will be fun to try to figure out which is the proper thing to be doing. Yeah. If there is such a thing as a proper thing, because I think that's part of the conversation here as well. You know? Very true. Yeah. That's something we can, uh, we can discuss a bit here today. Absolutely.

But first, how is your week here? You had a very busy weekend, you hinted out. Yeah. It, it almost feels like every weekend is busy at this eye, but, uh, but at least, uh, yeah, this, this past weekend was, uh, was quite a, quite busy in a alter, quite tiresome because am I went to take my certificate so that I could also function as a linesman in soccer games. Oh, that's exciting. So that's like an additional, yeah, it's like an additional referee cost that you need to take, uh, and you need to pass it.

Um, so it took like, it took all day, so you meet at nine o'clock, uh, and the, and you're done in five, so it's like a normal work day. But um, but during that time you also have, you know, you sit for a couple of hours and do, doing, you know, repetition of the theory of, because of course, because I'm already a referee, I know the theory already. So you do like repetition of it with the linesman specific parts and, and go through all that once again.

Um, and then we went to an actual game where we then were linesman, you know, so each of us had like 10, 10 minutes in each half, uh, where we were linesman in a proper game to practice, which was quite nice. But the thing was that it was like a, was the wind was howling and it was raining and it was nasty. So it was, yeah. And it was really cold, really raining and, and, and, and, and you only have 10 minutes, you know, and then the other guys who also took the certificate have their 10 minutes so far for like half an hour out of the 40 minutes and eat hot.

Autumn (3m 1s): It needs half. You were just standing there in the freezing cold, raining, you know, it was not very pleasant, but that doesn't I, I mean I'm in Vermont, but you're in Denmark, so I'm thinking, I think your latitude is further North, Southern thing. Ah, that just rain in February. And so, yeah.

Jesper (3m 22s): How are you feeling? Do you have a cold or he sounds like he doesn't use cell. Okay. No, no, I am no, no, I, I F I feel okay. I mean am okay. We did. God, we did get really wet and soaked because otherwise also afterwards, uh, you have to do, that's part of the certification that you have to, you had to pass a modified Cooper test. I don't know if you're familiar with those. And that was basically like, no, it's, it's Cooper test.

It's like a run test that was, I don't remember if it's like from the sixties or seventies, but it was developed for the U S military. Um, so I think normally in a Cooper test, if I remember correctly, you're running 12 minutes and you, it's basically like a max test. So you just run as fast as you can in 12 minutes. And then it's used to, normally it's, it's then being used to that. You built your training schedule off of that, um, so that you can build up your stamina and become more fit and whatnot.

That's how to use it in the military. But, but here we are doing in like a modified one. So instead we have to run a two kilometers in 10 minutes. So that means that you have to, you have to run fairly fast, otherwise you're not gonna make it. Um, and, and we did this of course we'd like in with the wind, you know, right in our faces. Like it was really strong headwind. Um, so it was a why I was, I was done for afterwards.

Oh man. So, uh, yeah, so yeah, they, it was a, it was good. I passed everything so I also have that certificate, so that was nice. Uh, but uh, but other than that, then I must say when I got home Friday evening, I was very, very tight. So I was pleased to be honest at the, this morning or this week, the kids are off school for the winter holidays. So I was actually quite pleased about that because that meant that I could sleep in this morning, which was quite nice instead of doing an early school run.

So that's good. That's good. Then hopefully they slept in and didn't like, decided to get up at the crack of Dawn and get into things. Now, you know, the kids a bit older now, sorts of data, they don't get, they don't get up late, but they don't get up early items. So it's like this eight o'clock, something like that at half past seven, something like that. So it's okay. It's enough that I can slip in as well, so, so that's good. So, but we're planning to, uh, to take them to the swim this Friday,

Autumn (5m 59s): so, uh, yeah. And, and on Sunday as well, my youngest has, he ha he's attending a soccer tournament that it has to have to go with him for on this coming weekend. So it's like, yeah. You know, next weekend is specious. Well, yeah, sounds, uh, you definitely hear running around, but Hey, you're, you know, parents and plus you have other things you're working on with the soccer and so yes, that will keep you busy. Yeah. Yeah. But I think you, last time you, when we recorded, you were talking about doing the renovation and whatnot, so you probably been pretty busy too.

Oh yeah. Just trying to, I think if, um, uh, if I ever have to pick up a pick ax again, I hope it's not to be lobbing at frozen ground and some big boulders. And we also had some concrete, uh, posts that were supporting the posts that were supporting the roof for the overhang where we're building a, a little room below it. And yeah, I just as a writer, as has anyone who likes to work with her and I actually anyone, no one wants to be sore but my elbows and my wrists and my hands, I just, I feel this, I feel this a lot so I'm, I'm tired but Hey, we're up to the point.

I have the floor joists in its level. I think I'm done with the frozen ground on the pick axing and I have just one more sheet of a floorboard plywood to put down and then literally the subfloor is done and I can just worry about the walls and after frozen floor, um, February again, February outside yet frozen groundwork. I am, I'm ready for just would, but we have a storm coming tomorrow and then it's going to be nice for a little while.

So we just have to cover up our, our lumber and stuff cause we don't need it coated in ice and then hopefully we'll get the upset the walls done and the sheeting done. So next week it's supposed to be really crappy and AC and rainy and you know like February, winter kind of stuff. But if we can at least have the outside sheeting on and the walls up then who cares? You know, we can worry about citing it when the weather's have decent. Well you can just work inside at that point.

So it's very close. Very excited. It almost sounds actually like that you have it colder than we do here. To be honest. I don't know. We'll have snow and ice because we don't have that. Oh yeah, no, we have snow and ice. We had am the temperature the other day was zero degrees when we woke up and that's Fahrenheit here. Yeah. So that's, that was fair night. It's am just about freezing every day. Usually like in the afternoons it'll go above freezing, but most of the all night and most mornings and evenings are below freezing.

So it's kind of cold. Yeah, it sounds like it. Well, once we get into talking the temperature

Jesper (8m 56s): and the weather, maybe it's am

Autumn (8m 59s): tend to move on.

Jesper (9m 3s): Well, we go on the internet with the amwritingfantasy podcast, so we have a lot of new join us on Patrion. Uh, so I just wanted to give, each of the machines are out here. Uh, so we have a

Autumn (9m 16s): Rena handwork, hand, Beck, something like that. Nina Jimson, Brian Jacob pits, and a fellow Dane. Do you want to try to pronounce her name? Autumn no, I'm not even, I don't want you to feel insulted. I've already seen you writing notes to each other in, in Danish. If so, I just, yeah, no, that's your side. You're good. I trust your pronunciation. So that was a Kasina fuck here. Oh, very nice.

That's, that's what I'm going to have to work on. That's really good. So how do you say hello in Danish though? I want to know that one. Well, you, you just say hi. Hi. You don't have another word, like Hey, uh, almost like English, but you just say hi. Hi. Okay. Yeah, this is, it's not like French with bones or anything. All right. So I can say hi. Oh, no, no. Yeah. Excellent. Well, good. I quite easy. We should do a word every single week. I'll eventually catch on. Oh, maybe.

Jesper (10m 15s): But, uh, but at least I wanted to on behalf of, of both myself and autumn of course to say, uh, thank you so much for the support that you're offering to the amwritingfantasy. Podcast you know, it's, it's this kind of support that helps us keep the lights on, uh, when it comes to this podcast. So please know that your pledge really makes a difference and it means a lot to us.

Autumn (10m 36s): It does. It's, it's wonderful to be able to help and meet other people a lot more personally than we would. And just like the Facebook group and, and the support. Yeah. It keeps us going here. So, which is a really important, yup.

Jesper (10m 51s): We offer a lot of rewards to those who join us. So I could also mention that, uh, just last week, uh, at the point of, uh, of this episode going out, we had the monthly Q and a session for for all those who support us at the adult dragon Tia, because you've got a name your tea or something.

Autumn (11m 10s): Absolutely. All of ours are dragon tears and yeah, of course for fantasy authors, of course we have dragons in there.

Jesper (11m 20s): Exactly. Yeah. So if you want to see what we watch, we are offering, you know, check the link in the show notes and a head on over to Patrion and consider to join the club and become one of our backers over.

Autumn (11m 31s): Yeah. And I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, not only do you get into the podcast early, but to me sometimes it's the weekly, I mean, we're doing like weekly writing tips and blogs and answering questions over there. So there's quite a, it would be dirty now. I think there's over a year's worth of a backlog of blog post just to access that have tons of tips. So yeah, it's getting every day. It's getting more and more.

Jesper (11m 59s): Yeah. Yeah. And we also try to post a bit, uh, kind of like publishing, marketing industry information slash tip show once a week as well. Uh, so only the patron supporters are getting those as well. So this is actually stuff with a winner posting elsewhere. So, uh, so it might be, might be good to get into that if you're interested.

Autumn (12m 23s): Absolutely. Though I don't want to forget. I still absolutely love how the amwritingfantasy Facebook group is growing so fast by leaps and bounds. And how much conversation is going on? I just looked at like what are the top ones just from, Oh, yesterday someone asked like, how do you choose weapons for characters? Guess how many comments are on that one already? 20. Oh, you're so low. Oh really?

41 comments on that one. And it just still typing, um, people talking about how they choose their character weapons and it's just, it's a lot of fun. So it's really actually seeing all the different ways, especially the different types. So we have fantasy from medieval to someone mentioning their space opera and they had mentioned something about a dinosaur. So it's, they're just wondering. So that's another one that if you don't want to join if you can't join us on Patreon right now, come over at least to the amwritingfantasy Facebook group because it's just fine.

Jesper (13m 31s): Yeah, it is. And, and I, I think, I don't, I don't remember if we talked about this on a past podcast episodes, if had just been conversations between you and me autumn but, but we have talked about in the past at least am that it feels like with Facebook groups that you sort of need to read some sort of critical mass and once you get that far, then then the interaction starts to flow more because they are just enough people that you will always get responses. And we've certainly passed that actually quite a while back, I think.

But, but it, it's amazing. We, I mean every day I'm either myself or Luke and sometimes you autumn are letting in more people. It's like everyday there's join requests and everyday there is new posts from people who asking for help or advice and people pitching in. So I think that's absolutely excellent and it's a really nice, a free resource. Uh, so whether, whether you're sort of viewing Facebook the same way that I do and you don't quite like Facebook, this one is just enough that I'm going to go on Facebook anyway.

Yeah,

Autumn (14m 34s): I agree. It's definitely become that kind of group, which is awesome.

Jesper (14m 43s): Ah, so how much should you read when writing this is something that is, yeah, but because there are so many opinions on this, I saw many people, I don't know, maybe for a start, maybe four-star on them before we even get started on this. Maybe we should just point out that whatever we say from this point onwards is just our opinions. Nothing right or wrong in this episode. It is. We just sharing what we think and you can feel absolutely free to disagree with us.

That's fine. We have no problems with that. So we can only just say what we feel like, and I think this has gotta to be, that's kind of episode.

Autumn (15m 25s): Yes, I think so. And you can happily comment, debate, criticized. They'll be kind in the comments. That's what they're there for. So this will be a fun one to maybe be a conversation with of, you know, do you, how much do you think are we right, are we wrong? Um, what do you think of the advice that's out there? And I think that might be also a really good place to start is what you've heard. What do they tell writers? Um, how much you should read while writing is always a good place to start.

Jesper (15m 57s): Yeah, it is for sure. Uh, I also find, I actually found a 2014, 14 time magazine article about how much American treats, so we can just come cycled back to that as well. And I can tell you what peoples, well this is a, you know, self assessments stuff. So it's just what people believe themselves. So it's not like a, like a scientific study but, but it's still a bit interesting, but we can just cycle back to that. And I think the elephant in the room, maybe, maybe I can start with that.

At least the, I see knowledge that, yeah, because there was a Stephen King quote out there, and I think this one influences quite a lot about how people believe, think, view the point about how much you should be reading when you're writing. And the quote goes like this. So quote, if you want to be a writer, you must do two things. Read a lot and write a lot unquote. All right, so that's what Stephen King set, right?

So it doesn't tell you have to, it's not like write every day. It doesn't say read every day, just as a read a lot, read a lot and write a lot, which of course I'm not going to disagree with him yet, but I mean that, that, I think that is true. Uh, but, uh, I mean the man has sold more than 350 million copies of his work. Right? And the, I also looked up, according to Forbes, he yearns approximately $40 million per year. Right. So I'm not gonna argue with that guy.

Autumn (17m 29s): That'd be like argue about if Neil Gaiman told me I had to read every day, I probably just go and do it so

Jesper (17m 35s): well yeah, but this is exactly what I wanted to debate a bit here. Right. Because I think does this, this is part of the problem because the guy Stephen King and because he has the name me as him because he's like the, you know multi award winning highly author that everybody wants to be when he says something it is taking S gospel. Yes. And that is fair enough and I understand why. So I'm not sort of putting people down for, for doing that at all. I fully understand the logic behind but I do have some issues when what he said there about read a lot comes off as if now this is a requirement, you know, if you want to be something like a successful, not even like Stephen King because I think that's, that's the lightning in the bottle conversation again.

But if you want to be successful at least then if you aren't reading a lot you will never become a good writer. And I think, I think to be honest at this is how that statement is often understood or that that that I mentioned before. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And I don't like that.

Autumn (18m 44s): I like to question everything. So I guess it probably wouldn't hit me that way where there definitely would have been a time where in my life where I would have tried to juggle more balls than I really should possibly be responsible for just because everyone said this, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do this. Um, it's probably why I say why at this point, but I do see, I think that might be a key component is why should you read when you're a writer and that is important and maybe what you should read when you're a writer because there's also a difference there.

And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of wiggle room on the this question. There's a lot of things to unpack and try to figure out when they say you should read, if you want to be a writer. So what should you be reading? Should you be reading your genre? Should you be reading books on how to write? Should you just be reading the news? It doesn't say, well I read a lot of news stories every day. BBC is like, you know, my go-to if I have a five second break to see what's going on in the world.

Jesper (19m 51s): Right. But that's not fiction though. It is not. But I guess this is part of the conversation does, it does, it's just, okay, what

Autumn (19m 59s): are you supposed to be reading? Should it only be about writing or should it be in your genre?

Jesper (20m 6s): Yeah. Uh, I mean for sure. I do think that a reading is important. Um, uh, and I, I've, I try to think before we went to record this, I was trying to think of things that, you know, what are the benefits of reading from a writer's perspective? And I tried to, to think of some stuff and I came up with four things to be honest. And one of them is also answering the question you just raised about what it is did you should be reading. So maybe I can go over them here and then you can see if you have some more to pitch in or maybe you disagree with some of them and then you can, uh, you can share your thoughts.

We never disagree. So this will be fun and we'll see if we can get with something.

Autumn (20m 49s): I'll, maybe I shouldn't call it problem, but it always ends up stone and we, we agree on your thing. So it doesn't become very, very like heated debates is podcast all to play devil's advocate just for the sake of it. Alright, so number one, uh, I put down that the more you read, the more words and sentence structures that you will gain exposure to. So this will inform and help you in your own writing. And I think that is true.

That's very true. Because when you, when you see other, other, other authors writing and now we're talking fiction here of course, because then you're getting a sense of how do they, how do they use the words but also the sentence structures and how are they, especially with fantasy for example, how are they doing the world building elements, how are they sharing things about the world inside the narrative without info dumps like we talked about in past episodes and all that good stuff, you know, that's, that's something you do get a feeling for from reading.

So, so, and it, it sort of broadens your understanding of how to write. So I think that's important. Yes, I agree, of course. But I think it's also important the quality of what you're reading because you're talking about, you know, learning and I've seen, um, you know, sometimes if you're not reading something that is well-written, you might be learning the wrong things. And I have definitely seen that at a few, few times that people are not reading, you know, maybe there it's more lightweight.

It's not, you know, the high end, the, you know, the J K Rowling's or the George RR Martin. You're really seeing some really fantastic writing. I did read a really nice article from someone once who said, you know, when you're reading something and it really just moves you or takes you by surprise or you just does, it has an impact on you. That's when you should stop and really analyze it and look at it and see why. How did the author do this? That's a really great way of looking at writing.

And again, if I've read stories where the dialogue was literally and other things like that, and that's probably not the inspiration and that I want to be unpacking. So you gotta watch the quality of what you're reading. But isn't that highly sort of subjective? I mean, what if I like to read something that where the, where the dialogue is we, that's what I like and I want to write like that.

That's fine, right? That is fine. That is fine. If that's also what you want to write, I guess read something that is from an author who will inspire you. So if you go for someone who's writing that style you love and that you think is really an excellent writer and his writing things that you like and that'll help inspire you, teach you a lot about the genre and how to write whatever it is about their writing that you like, whether it's the characters of the world or just the sentence structure like you said.

Jesper (23m 56s): Yeah. And it also, on the flip side, I would say for example, am it's probably probably a year ago, but I read the Brandon Sanderson's way of King of Kings. I think story, I think it's way of Kings, not King, but nevermind. But I read that I think about a year ago and, and well I think most of us are on, most of our listeners here know Brendan Sanders. Sanderson is a pretty big name within fantasy authors within the community of Francis you authors.

But honestly, I, I didn't like those books. I think that's when somebody will kill me now. But, but honestly I didn't, but because you did not like a Brandon Sanderson story, probably. Probably, yes. Uh, I mean, but nevertheless, I still got something out of it. You know, I, I was certainly inspired with, I mean, the world building stuff, I mean, hands down, he is, he does an excellent job at we're building. Um, and so you can still pick up things about, for example, how he's am well, again, sharing the world details without doing info dumps and not because he does not do when for Dom's, it's all part of the story, which is really nice.

Um, so you could still pick up information like that. Even though that the story itself, I didn't really care much for that. I didn't care much for the character either. Uh, but, but there are still things you can pick up from reading other people's books. I like, okay, I like this one element, but the rest I don't like. So you just ignore the rest and you pick up the elements that you do like. Right. I think that's fine.

Autumn (25m 32s): I mean, I've, I've still never actually finished game of Thrones because I just, they're, the pacing sometimes was too slow and there's, I really could not get used to the fact that all the characters I cared about died. But at least now that I've watched the show, maybe I'll know which ones. Yeah. At least now that I've watched the show, I can only see which ones I know which ones will make it to the end. So I'll try to focus on those. But his writing it's the language and the, what it evokes and how he uses a different senses.

Just, I mean, there's a couple paragraphs and pages of his writing that I keep as inspiration when I need, when I'm feeling stuck and like my writing's flat, I go read those and I'm like, right, this is what I'm trying to do. And so yeah, even though I've never finished the whole series, I've finished enough of it to know this is stellar. If I could do this, I'd be so thrilled. Right.

Jesper (26m 27s): Okay. So that was only number one. Let's go for to. Yeah. So I'll do two and three here in quick succession because they're just short points. And then number four, I will then I'll get into answering the question you asked before about what you should be reading. Uh, so number is, uh, well when you're reading your PFOS to block all out all kinds of other stuff out and you're foster focus, uh, and so it helps to improve your concentration, which I think is a good skill to have as a writer.

So that's just a quick one there. Uh, and eh, number three is in prolonged nation of, of the learning about words and sentence structures, but that's more like the fundamentals of story structure. Uh, you also, you also get a better understanding about how different authors are structuring their stories by reading a lot of books. Um, so again, you will, there will be some stuff you like and some, some stuff you don't like and that's fine and you pick and choose what you want to sort of bring forward into to inform your own writing and what you want to ignore.

That's absolutely fine. But, but reading a lot of different stories does give you different perspective on how a story can be structured and what at least from your point of view works and what doesn't work.

Autumn (27m 47s): Yes, both are very good points. I like the idea, I hadn't been considering it, but with focus, I think that's a really important that there's so much going on in the world that it's probably a good thing to learn to just get lost in something and then hopefully you can do the same thing in your book. And I have to admit, as a writer it's, we never, we never experience our own stories with that first level of discovery, not the complete thing. It's always, you know, we're discovering lots of bout our story as we write, but we're never going to experience as a reader.

So it's also really fun to read just to remember what it's like to be led along. And so we can think about how we're doing that for the people reading our stories. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Should I get into my perspective on the question you asked that cause I think I'm saving up one of the reasons that, well I think it's going to be related to something I'm thinking of so let's go for it.

Jesper (28m 47s): Okay, cool. Yeah. So in terms of what should you be reading, in my opinion it, well it's one of the typical answers where it depends a bit, but if you are not well versed within or well-read within this younger that you're writing already, then you have to write within the genre. Yes. Because the thing is that, Oh I did I say right. I meant I have to read within this younger. Yeah. Because the thing is that each Shaundra has its own kind of tropes within them.

And I'm not trying to start saying here now that you need two copies tropes and you need to follow them, but, but if you don't have a sense of what they are and also how they do inform, read expectations of the stories, then you, your, your book are not going to resonate with that audience. So it's not about tropes, but it is about touching upon the troops. So do you at least delivering what readers of that particular show is expecting?

And then of course the way that you deliver it, you have to be creative and try to find new ways, but still touching upon that those particular truck try to sugar. So, so that's the reason why I think you have to read within your, within the same genre as your writing. Um, if you are really well West within your shower already and you understand all of it already, I don't know, maybe for example, if you would like to write a fantasy story that has some thriller elements in it, maybe it could be worth reading a bit of thriller stories just to see how those stories are working and how the authors are going about that too.

You know, give you a bit of an outside perspective almost if you can call it that. But for the majority I will probably say that you have to read within the genre and stays for the most part it's just in,

Autumn (30m 45s): yeah. And I think, um, there's another one. Good thing. Yeah. Well I think there's a few reasons to why I guess it doesn't. Um, I like variety. So I think it's sometimes fun to just read, like read in your genre or read what you're writing in the genre you're writing, but sometimes it is fun to just go pick up a murder mystery and see how they do some layering in of clues and you can learn so much about that. And so it's really fun to kind of go for really good stories. But I do think it's really important to do that because you learn not only what we've been talking about, but the current trends.

I think if, um, if I went, I just recently read an Anne McCaffrey when th the first book I ever picked up that was a fantasy story and is the reason I fell in love with fantasy and I read it again and I haven't actually finished my review for it on good reads because this is like, this is the most pivotal story of my entire life. And reading it now as an adult in 2020 versus, you know, a kid in 1980 where the sexism, it's more omniscient, just all the writing trends that have changed.

Um, how this woman am her boyfriend slash lover treats her. Oh my gosh, if that happened today, but at the time it was fine, but reading it now like, Oh my gosh, I'd never let my kid read this if she thought, if I would not want another young child to think it's okay to be shaken and be almost afraid of the person who is supposed to be our partner. Holy crap. So I was, I think it's important to go read, but you know, try to read what's contemporary because you'll be surprised at the change in nuances, uh, characters.

I remember the 80s there was a lot about you are born Dustin, you know, low, the big glowy signs and you shall go and be this. And nowadays it's like, I'm sorry, you're like the poor farm boy. You're going to have to earn this through some horrible trials and if you're lucky you will come out alive and be something better. It's a lot different. So if you're going to pick up something, it's to pick up those sorts of things. You what are the trends? How our characters being development, read the comments to see what readers like about the story, what they hated about the story and it's fascinating.

It's all, every book I read now is become like a scientific study of what do I like? What did other readers like, what do people say about it? Because it's good to find the trends and you're always allowed to have your own views and opinions. But again, if you're writing for a mass audience, it's also interesting to see if you agree or disagree with what other people found. It's really fun and even little things like I realized I liked to write dystopian, but almost all dystopian is written in first person and I just, I don't know why it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.

I don't really like reading, writing first person, so it's one reason I stay away. I have a little bit in the genre if that's also partially why I stay away from it because a third person is not that common and readers are not expect they're okay with it that some of them mentioned, you know, it's okay but it's not, it's not what they're looking for and those are important things. You only know by being curious and going in there and reading or picking up at least a whole bunch of am, the free downloads and the lease going through them a little bit to get to trends.

Hmm.

Jesper (34m 21s): Yeah. What your set just reminded me because uh, uh, quite recently I finished reading the first book in the dragon lands series with my sons and I was so afraid of going back to read that because of exactly what you will mention in here. Right. I was so afraid that this wonderful memory of dragon Lars was the one that put me on the, on the track of fantasy back back when I was a child and I, and I have so fun. Fond memories of that series is just like the best thing I ever read.

And then I was like, Oh my God, I mean, I'm so afraid now I'm going to pick this up and I'm going to start reading and am I going to be like, what? What is this? You know, imagine, yeah, we got, and I was so concerned about having my fond memory completely spoiled. But, um, but to be honest, it was okay. It was, it was not as a, um, it was not as good as I remember it, but it would say it's okay. I mean, racially in the skill is still cool, so that's good.

Those deaf. But I mentioned that I'm going to send that 2014 time magazine article before. Maybe I should just circle back to that for us. Let's, yeah, let's circle back

Autumn (35m 35s): what it said. Yeah. Again,

Jesper (35m 38s): it was, uh, you know, people's own estimation on how much they read. So there's no science in mold here, but, uh, but it's so excepted Americans read 19 minutes a day on average. So this is 2014. So mind you at 66 years old, right? But yeah, American sign minutes, younger Americans aged between 25 and 35 34 reads just four minutes a day.

Wow. And those over 75 reach upwards of one hour each day. So, uh, yeah. And I, I'm pretty sure that the, in terms of the younger demographics there, it could even be less than four minutes nowadays, but I don't know. How much do you read on average a day? Autumn

Autumn (36m 30s): I would say cause I would get in most of my reading right now is probably new stories and things like that. But I would say maybe I get an hour, but maybe I'm overestimating half an hour to an hour. And I would like that to be a fiction. And I do like, my problem is I try not to read while I'm writing because I'm task oriented and once I get involved in a novel I just want to read. I'm like addicted to reading. It's my biggest addiction. So I do not usually read while I'm writing because otherwise I'll just read.

But I do do other am other types of, you know, readings, little short stories and yeah, some stuff.

Jesper (37m 11s): So what do you think you read? Well, certainly less than I would like to. Um, I, uh, I don't have time during days and what not to read. So the time when I read this, when I go to bed in the evening before I need to sleep, so then I like to take my Kindle and read a bit, uh, before going to sleep. But it happens too often compared to what I would like that am I'm too tired when I get to bed, so I almost cannot read, so I just fall asleep and step.

So I don't know, on average maybe like, mm. I probably pretty much aligned with that article there. Maybe 15, 20 minutes, something like that, which is far less than I want to. I would like really light to read more, but I feel it really difficult to find the necessary time to do so. But also because when you've been really busy all day, you know, when I get to bed on tired. Yeah. Uh, and I think that maybe, go ahead.

Sorry, go ahead now. Well, I was just about to say, but maybe this is also why the Stephen King quote there re-ups me a bit the wrong way because it's, it's, I mean, not, not the quote itself, but more like the way that I think some people understand the quote because I don't know what exactly he meant by it when he said read a lot. Uh, I, I don't know if, if maybe maybe somebody can take out an article where he elaborated on it and I did read Stephen King's on writing that book he wrote.

I did read that, but that's like a couple of years ago. So I can't quite remember if he elaborated on it in there, but maybe he means that you have to read a lot every day. Uh, or maybe he just means that you read, you read as much as you can. I, I'm not sure, but at least I, I just feel like it's important to be mindful that you don't end up dedicating so much time to reading that it basically ends up taking time away from writing. Exactly. We're not going to be authors unless we, right, exactly.

That's why I tried it

Autumn (39m 18s): to write a book and then read a book and then write a book and read a book. Cause if I do it any other way, it screws up everything and I would just be reading. But I do think it's important and I mean I also think it comes from, like I mentioned, the trends and all those things. You can only get by reading current stories, things that are out now. But before I became a writer, I thousand, I mean how many fantasy books did I think I used to fall off a book in two or three days.

And so if I, if I estimated from the time I really started reading fantasy in seventh grade to when I started writing and slowed down on my reading activities, that's a lot of books. I mean it does like it has to count somewhere. I got all of that knowledge stored inside of me somewhere, even though sometimes it's, you know, not how I'd want to be writing now, but at least I, I can analyze that and they still get something from it because it's part of why I love the genre and why I became a writer.

Jesper (40m 23s): Yeah, but don't you think that sometimes reading can end up for some people to be like a procrastination tool? Oh, absolutely. It's like the excuse that, Oh, I need to read some stuff so I don't have time to write today or something. I dunno.

Autumn (40m 38s): The writing should definitely come first and it's one of the hard parts of being an author. I see some authors on good reads and they have like 20 some books they want to read. I'm like, damn, no, it's, it's been a long time since I read 20 books in a year or set myself that kind of coal.

Jesper (40m 55s): I've never read 20 books in. He's three 20 bucks on a month. Are you kidding? Wow. That's amazing. I mean my wife always makes fun of me because whenever I start reading a new book it takes me like four or five months before I'm done with it. And in the meantime, so you'd read like 10 books. I get more done with one that does wake it up

Autumn (41m 15s): or would your a slower reader. But it's still, again, it becomes an addiction for me so I have to stay away from it. I want to be writing I want to be creating my own stories. I yeah and it's funny cause I think to if you are reading and writing at the same time, there's definitely a trend where you kind of take on some of the aspects of what you've been reading and you might change your tone, which is also like if you're in the middle of the trilogy, the last thing you want to do is totally change up your tone just because you're influenced by someone.

So those are all kind of the caveats. You know, you have to be careful about what you're reading because if you screw things up, you can screw up some big things.

Jesper (42m 0s): Yeah. But don't you think that that's more like if you're in your really early stages of writing, I mean, once you've written enough, you're not going to change your style just because you are reading something. I would say maybe maybe differently

Autumn (42m 16s): a subconscious change cause I've found myself using words that I would not normally or just the pacing's a little different. I can see things being influenced occasionally by what I'm reading. So I do watch that. If it's not, I don't want to read reading something post-apocalyptic on horror when I'm also writing Epic fantasy that's all. No Woolbright because I think, you know, you end up with darker terms and your characters are a little more melodramatic and you're like, no, that's not what I'm aiming for. Let's, it's like changing your entire mood.

I'm very much effected by what I'm reading. Again, that's why I live myself. It's like being on a diet. I just want to pick up a book, but I can't,

Jesper (42m 58s): no, that's the quite interesting actually because I think my mind sort of just come compartmentalizing everything so it doesn't matter what I read or watch. Uh, I mean, of course you're always going to get a somewhat of an influence for whatever you're reading or watching on Netflix or what, I mean, that's unavoidable, but I don't think that, I don't think that it really influences the way that I'm telling the story no matter what I'm watching. So I don't really think about that much. I just want so read whatever. I wasn't,

Autumn (43m 27s): Hey, you're a much, uh, you're much more of a plotter. And I don't know if that has something to do with it where I'm more about the answer. So I'm more of a hybrid. I'm definitely, I straddled the line between the two, so, yeah. Yeah, it could be that. So I have a lot more wiggle room where things get influenced more than maybe sometimes I'm meaning for it to happen.

Jesper (43m 46s): Oh, right. Yeah. But I don't know, may maybe if we are to if it's possible even to derive some sort of conclusion out of all this, uh, talking around, but I don't know. I, I'm sort of thinking that, I think we are both saying that if you should not like spend years reading other people's fiction, if it prevents you from doing any writing on your own, you know, at least I think that, you know, writing skills doesn't magically appear just because you are reading, you know, you'll have to be writing and that should be your priority.

So at least in my view, if you are so busy in your day to day life, then prioritize your writing and then if you can get in like maybe 10 minutes of reading

Autumn (44m 32s): before you fall asleep like me, then that's it. I think that sounds good as I'm tooting my own horn here. I know. Oh, that's all right. I think, I mean I tried to do it depending on how long a chapter was, just just one chapter is good. And then you know, then I never met the brakes come off when I start getting close to the climax. But reading is important, but yes. So you don't even know the questions of what to look for and the things to break down to see why you like this writing or why you don't like that writing until you've been writing.

So reading should definitely come secondary. Hopefully you've read books that inspired you to become a writer. So you have that backlog, you have that, that you know you from foundation right first and then read. And it's amazing. It's just like, you know, going to the movies with an author, you want to strangle people because they are constantly pointing out the clues and the plots were horrible. But it's true. We all do it. Yeah. That's my wife next to me in the couch when we were watching something.

She, she hates stuff. I think it just comes to us net. Once you start doing it, you just can't turn it off. It's so hard to sit there in silence. Yeah.

Jesper (45m 46s): We see the force yet and we see the potholes miles away.

Autumn (45m 50s): Oh yeah. Yeah. So, but you don't know that until you're writing and you're doing it yourself and then you and you struggle with something and then you read it, someone else do it and you're like, Oh, that's perfect. And you remember it from then on. So I agree. I think that's our take home message, right? First, you're already a reader, but you know, just just a little bit, there's a little bit of spice.

Jesper (46m 14s): Perfect. So in episode 60 we share of the cost of editing, but how much does it cost to produce a novel when taking cover, design and everything else into account? That's the topic for next month.

Narrator (46m 27s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 62 – Map Creation for Fantasy Novels

Fantasy map making is one of Autumn and Jesper's favorite topics.

In episode 62 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, they discuss where to start when creating maps, how important realism and immersion is and how maps benefit your writing.

Map making tools are also on the agenda, as well as, discussing why some authors might avoid map creation and how to overcome the reluctance.

 

Links mentioned in the show:

The Ultimate Fantasy Writers Guide course: https://ultimatefantasywritersguide.com/main/

Fantasy Map Making book: https://www.amwritingfantasy.com/product/fantasy-map-making/ (paperback available from Amazon)

Map Making 101 blog post: https://www.amwritingfantasy.com/map-making-101/ 

 

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (1s): . You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello. I am, Jesper. And I'm Autumn. This is episode 62 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and today we are covering one of my favorite topics and it's a fantasy map making I honestly don't know how, how did we wait 62 episodes to cover this? Autumn this is completely wrong. I don't know, cause it's

Autumn (53s): definitely, it's both of us. I mean, I, I'm at currently ranking a fantasy map for another author. So yeah, I love fantasy maps. I don't know how we waited so long. Maybe we just thought just talking about a map would be two less fun than getting the visuals, but Oh well we'll figure it out.

Jesper (1m 11s): No, it cannot be not fun to talk about maps. It's a, that's a credible, yeah. I mean we amateurs, we should, we should have done this as episode one or something. That's true. It was just, this is,

Autumn (1m 24s): well, it's because we're not just world-building, but this is definitely something we both love and so many authors do. I mean, what does a fantasy book without a map in it? It's just, you feel lost for from the get go.

Jesper (1m 38s): Yeah. I keep every single week I find some maps on Twitter and then I comment on them just because I liked them so much. So when I was more active on Twitter, I would do the same

Autumn (1m 47s): thing. And you're right. I actually kind of, I kind of missing the maps and what people are working on it. I need to add world-building hashtags to my Instagram searches.

Jesper (1m 57s): Yeah, yeah, indeed. I mean, I don't care if they, if those Twitter images are like, yeah, somebody made it out of crayon or whatever. I don't care. Just the fact that it's a map I love him. Map I don't care what it looks like.

Autumn (2m 8s): Yeah. I mean, I went for my, uh, last book where I was creating a map by newest world that I was making. I actually only did it in black and white, which, I mean, I almost always call her my map, so I was very surprised myself. But there's nothing, you know, it's sometimes fun just to have the shading and keep it simple and it does look better in the book. It's very crisp.

Jesper (2m 30s): Cool.

Autumn (2m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. The color does make it better to be honest. But black and white can be quite cool. Yeah. I it was, uh, yeah, it needed to get done when it was still, it was fun. I mean, I just recently found discovered cartography brushes for Photoshop and yeah. Oh, nice. Oh no, it's so bad. It's so much fun to have so much ease of creating maps. So yeah, it's, it's what we do, but that's not where we're going

Jesper (2m 60s): to start. We're have so much other stuff been going on the last week. Have it. I know, even in your life you've got some stuff going on. Yeah. Well, well, I think in general things have been going quite well. Um, on the, on the work side of things, I'm about halfway through the plotting book, one for our new series. So I'm very pleased with that. So it's, it's going, uh, it's going to be so much fun to write that novel.

I'm really looking forward to it. Um, but other than that is also been a pretty well pretty busy weekend last weekend, but also the last couple of weekends because, uh, well this weekend we just, uh, came out of, uh, one of my son's classmates had a birthday parties, so he was at that and my oldest son was at the cinema a cinema together with my wife. And, uh, and we also had somebody who came to look at the house. As I've mentioned before, I think on the podcast that we, we've been trying to sell the house for a long while now.

So, uh, it's things or maybe that there's been a bit of an uptake in people looking now, at least we've had three different couples, uh, looking over the last couple, well, two weeks probably, uh, last weekend. This weekend, maybe the weekend even before that, I don't remember. But the last couple of weeks I've been a bit of an uptake. Um, one of them was like, uh, this younger couple and when they were here looking at the house, I, I worry, I already said to my wife, because they really liked the house and then they had to go and have a meeting with the bank of obviously, and I said to my wife, you know, these guys is, they don't have the money to buy this.

It's, our house is only like a am, what is it from 2005. Okay. Some of you know, it's a pretty new house, so it's not cheap. So if you're really young as you can afford it, so yeah, lo and behold, they came back on the, uh, okay. It's about 800,000 Danish crowns, too expensive. So that's like a hundred K U S dollars. It says like, you're, you're just will weigh off, you know.

Um, and then there was another couple looking. Uh, they looked at three different houses here in, in our area. They actually ended up bidding on one of the other ones, but they bit like what's probably equivalent to 40, 50 K dollars below the price that it was offered. For so yeah, the real estate agent agent just told me, you know, I just told that then, then I'm not even going to tell the, uh, the, you know, the house owner you're bit, because this is ridiculous. Oh wow.

You can't beat 50 K below that. I mean, come on. It's that serious. Right? Yeah. That's, that's really it for a bargain. Yeah. I mean, come on. It's ridiculous. So, so that never happened. So they went away. And then this weekend, uh, just a couple of days ago, there was another couple in their mid thirties who came to look at our house and they looked at one more house as well, uh, just down the street that is also for sale. Uh, so they really liked the house. Um, so they, they needed and they have a good, uh, you know, financial, financial, they are, they are doing well enough.

So, uh, we'll see what happens. It's, it's only been like one work day since they were here. Right. So I don't know yet. We'll see what happens. But, but I don't know. I mean, why is it that people go out and do like how shopping without checking with the bank first? Well how much they can afford. I just don't understand.

Autumn (6m 45s): No, I mean the times I've bought houses, we have always gone and gotten a preapproval and had like a limit and just kind of knowing what we're looking for. But I don't know, maybe that one young couple isn't really, you know, maybe those are first time and they hadn't really figured that out yet.

Jesper (7m 1s): No, but isn't it like common sense that, you know, if you want to buy a house, maybe you need to check with the bank how much you can afford. I mean, it's just you, you know, they're wasting their own time driving around. Also probably getting a site excited about somehow we want to buy that house and whatnot. Right. But they're also wasting our time that we have to leave the house and they have to see it and all that. And then it's just all for nothing. Right. I dunno.

Autumn (7m 27s): Oh, it's just weird to me. I don't know what's common sense for some people might be a learning experience for someone else. Yeah, maybe.

Jesper (7m 39s): Okay. I guess I shouldn't be complaining. At least somebody is, uh, interesting in seeing the houses so that that's of course good. But maybe someday, someday maybe it'll lead into an actual sale, but uh, it's, it's tough.

Autumn (7m 52s): Yeah, it is tough. It's still early in the spring, so you'll, uh, you know, to be spring is always win. The house sales and stuff really start moving. So it's, to me it's a good sign that you have people interested early Springs, so that's a good thing. That's a good sign. Yeah. I'm trying not to be too pessimistic, but, but keep in mind that we've had the house for sale for more than a year now. Right. So we've been through a spring already. Oh, that was a bad sprain. This will be, this is the one 20 20th century maybe. Maybe 20. 20 is to write spring. That's right. I like that. I hope so.

That'd be a good side. Yeah. How about you? Oh, well, you know, I've moved into our little cabin in the woods that were fixing up, um, as part of our rental agreement. So that's really exciting. Except it is Vermont and it is winter, uh, not quite spring. And part of what we're doing is a little addition on the back and that is am it's really fun to have to do some earth moving and ground work. A small group, small spot, but it's cause it's under an overhang so it's like you couldn't fit in heavy equipment if we had some, but it's a lot of um, handpicking he, uh, I didn't realize, I've learned that the tool I'm using is actually called a pneumatic.

It's a pickaxe on one side and it looks kinda like a hoe on the other, right about the right. Writing you know, writers hands. They don't like manual labor like that. Do they know my, um, yeah, my right wrist is a little sore and tired and so, uh, yeah, it's not exactly, I've enough writing right now, but I have to say, I, I the keyboard, it's much easier to type it. So far.

I have to say, considering my hands usually get really sore, like if I do woodworking and things, so I'm, I'm not displeased that it's going well. And I learned that some of those common phrases like pick away at things, I think that came from pickaxes and you just kind of take little chunks, big chunks, but it's going, it's all the groundworks almost. It's like 92% done. So this week. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Well this week will hopefully be actually putting in the floor, uh, and then building the walls and you know, once you got that pretty much framed it and put the insulation, it's starting to feel like, you know, you're, it's amazing how fast a building, especially just a one room can go up.

So am right. Yeah. I, I'm really hopeful that it'll be a, you know, a week two next week you'll have to check in and see how far we've come in our little cabin project. If you follow me on Instagram, I have been posting some pictures even on Facebook, on my personal feed. So if someone is interested in actually, yeah, tiny house construction. Am if you're kind of curious, do you know, come look me up and you can see how my homes coming along in between the podcast updates.

Cool. Oh, week on the internet with the amwritingfantasy podcast so we have, uh, something quite amazing to mention today. I'm sorry, I can't believe we've held off on mentioning this as well. No, I guess to be honest, like we talked about before we started recording, we should probably have mentioned it a bit earlier as well because it's just a bit down to the wire here. But if you are listening to this podcast episode on the data that it airs, then it will be the 2nd of March.

And that means that we have for the first time in six months now we have our premium writing costs open for enrollment. Yay. This is a big course. So it's, and we only do this twice a year. So it's so exciting when we open it up to new students and it's exciting to see the new students too. Yeah, absolutely. But th th th the thing is here that, so it'll be the 2nd of March if you, if you're listening on the day that this episode launches, but the cost active closest on the 5th of March.

So you only have a few days, uh, there, uh, there is a link in the show notes, so you can go and check it out if you're interested in that. But maybe autumn maybe you could just say a bit about what's in this a cost that we have named the ultimate fantasy writers guide right. I would love to, because this course is very near and dear to my heart. I actually created this one before we got together and became amwritingfantasy. So this is this course. I created it because, well, one, because I had a horrible time, um, with some in-person courses I took ages ago and I remember English class or so boring and so many of these things, they tell you these adages and they don't really get into the in depth.

Or the one course I took was all on mem, you know, it was open to all these other genres, memoirs and blah, blah, blah. And it really didn't help me with fantasy writing and that's what I wanted to learn. So as I got better and got awards and learned what I was doing, I've started putting all those notes together and created this course that it's to me I wanted, I'm sick of always having to go cobbled together and get your information from a hundred different sources or six different courses. I wanted a one stop shop.

I wanted to be able to take, um, an idea. It's to, you have an idea for a novel, how to develop that, how to build characters, how to world build, all the important things with fantasy writing and then breaking down the writing from how to write the beginning of a novel, how to write a really riveting middle and not get yourself or your reader lost or board and how, what you need to put in the climax and the ending. And more than that though, I wanted to teach other authors how to go and find, uh, you know, readers, especially as you're writing so that they're there and they're excited for your launch day and you end up launching to reviews and how to edit.

Cause I know that was one of what we just talked about editing on the podcast, but editing, that was something when I first got to it I was like, Oh, how do you tackle this? So I have a whole module on editing in there and there's editing on what is indie publishing and talking about wide versus just on Amazon or KDP select and what do you need to do for formatting, what do you need to do per book covers? What are all these steps and pieces? Cause I know the first time I've helped so many authors since then, the first time you upload the Amazon it's so nerve wracking.

It is exciting and you have questions. So it actually goes step by step on how to do that. And then the last module is how to go and build an author platform and, and brand. I mean literally I wanted this to be everything from your first novel idea to building your author career business all in one class. So it's a PR. I I know when I first told people this is what I wanted to do, they're like, wow, Whoa, how are you going to do that and hate 12 modules.

I did it. Got, you know, the who have gone through it or I love it and I think it's helped quite a few people. And actually I know you yes, we're actually went through it. So I think that's exciting. So yeah, it's quite some years ago now. It's been out for a few years now. So it is really funny. So it is kind of you were helped what helped me beta tested almost so it was fantastic back then and yeah, I am so excited to be seeing it, you know, coming again in new students and it's always a very exciting thing.

And I know you said, I think you pulled together some of the testimonials from other students. I did, yes.

Jesper (15m 30s): Put together a short, a some clip here that I was thinking to play. Just so people shouldn't take our word for it. Right, so I can just like just play a short clip here if you're okay with,

Autumn (15m 42s): yes. Excellent. Okay, let's go.

Catherine (15m 50s): Hi everyone. I'm Catherine. I'm currently working my way through the ultimate fantasy writers guide and I've been finding it very helpful. One of my main problems has been plotting. I had a very hard time getting my plot to go through and have continuity after going through the workshops for the plotting section. I have now got a full plot and have begun writing. It has been very helpful for me and I'm sure you will find it very helpful too.

Thanks.

Jim (16m 22s): Hi, I'm Jim D read fantasy author and I just watched autumn Brits a launch day module. It was a really informative, had a lot of great information. She had ideas I had never thought of before. Really excited to implement her ideas and launching my own book. Thank you. Autumn.

Speaker 6 (16m 47s): I highly recommend the ultimate fantasy writers guide because it's one of the best programs I've ever seen. It not only covers pretty much everything about writing from start to finish, including fan bases and stay in confident and everything. It also has things like languages and naming your character's based on that and it has map making it is just so excellent.

Jesper (17m 14s): All right. That, that was it. I hope that was loud enough. Uh, I can, uh, some of it was ma ma might be a bit low on the volume, but hopefully everybody could hear it. It came through fine on my end, so hopefully no one's like driving and they're Lily leaning towards their speaker trying to hear those. But hopefully, hopefully the soundtracks will,

Autumn (17m 37s): you know, be boosted when we do our post-production. So we'll, we'll keep an eye on that.

Jesper (17m 42s): Yeah, well we'll see what we can to make sure it goes through. OK. But, uh, but at least that gives, uh, you dear listener. Um, a bit of a, you know, other people's reflection on the course. Uh, and as I said, a closes on the 5th of March and we only open it twice a year. So if you want to have a look at it, you need to hurry up and click through the links in the show notes and check it out. And uh, if you do come in later and listening to this after the fifth, then you can still follow that link in the show notes.

Uh, and that it'll actually there. They will then be the possibility to get your name on a wait list for next time around. So, uh, you can do that. And the additional benefit I would say from doing that is also that you get onto our email list and in between now and next time we're going to email you a lot of good stuff about writing and wealth building tips and all kinds of stuff. So it never stops. We always have tips. We have the podcast, you know, tips we send by emails. So we want to make sure that, you know, we're helping authors and writers from everything, from marketing to how to write well.

So it's worth looking us up in at least joining the email list. And then you'll hear about the next course if you miss this one, which will be usually sometime in August. So, gosh, isn't that an age way? Probably. Yeah. Well, time flies. Yes. Uh, and of, and of course if you on the email list and you will get the information timely as well and not last second like this answer and the next time maybe we will do better at about announcing it ahead of time and we'll try at least, I don't want to promise two hours.

We'll try. You never know when someone's going to listen to an episode. So you can be listening to this in June. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, that's true. All right. Um, I think we'll move on. Let's go. So fantasy I was thinking like where do we want to start with the, I mean the, I, I think I would like to talk a bit about where you start with the map and also how a map map can help you with writing.

Maybe we could talk a bit about tools that you can use for map creation but I don't know what you think. That sounds perfect. I was gonna say you've only written a book on fantasy map making and you don't know where to start. I mean, come on Yesper you should have this out. Oh, and I'm disappointed. Yeah. Well the, the thing is that with the book writer, you can show the illustration. So everything that I'm talking about and uh, but, but here with audio only, we need to be a bit mindful about how to, how to make this episode approachable.

Uh, so it doesn't become too technical about geographics or whatever because that might also be a bit boring to listen to. But when you have a big a book with pictures in it, then it becomes a bit more interesting. It's much easier to show the pictures. But that's OK. I, I, cause I've written tons of blog posts. I mean map making is sort of, I think I had been doing a post on map making and you were, had the book coming out on something with maps and lo and behold, it's sort of how we met

Autumn (20m 49s): our first, first, first introduction, way back when on Twitter. So, yeah, this was, I can't believe this is blessing think. So remind them. Oh I think so. I'd have to go back into Twitter and double check. Oh goodness knows. I'm sure it's back there somewhere. It's been years and years and years. But I do remember, I think I had done a map making one Oh one blog post. So if I can do a blog post on that making one-on-one, we can, we can do this with no visuals. Well w we're going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think we've always, I think we both had the theory, um, that you start with coastlines.

That's always where I like to start with my map is actually figuring out which is land of which is water. Yeah.

Jesper (21m 33s): Uh, I have one step that I like to do before I even get that far to be honest. Um,

Autumn (21m 40s): because I think

Jesper (21m 42s): when you're looking at the map uh, I mean of course we are talking about maps that accompanies novels. So what I would like to do before I even do anything, um, and after that I agreed that then its coastlines. But before I get to the coastlines, uh, I like to think a bit about the story that you go into territorial very good point. And then think about, okay, what kind of things do I need on this map to convey the story so that it, it helps the story, right?

So it could be like, you know, you need the, you need the mountain where the, uh, well now I'm thinking about the vampire of course from our mix, but something, you know, yeah, you need the grave site for the vampire on amount. Okay, so I need a mountain or I need a magical tower or uh, you know, I need a Capitol city from where the main character comes from or whatever it might be. But, but so I like to write down like a, like a list of, okay, here are the things that I definitely need on that.

No, it's very tune just so that I can reference.

Autumn (22m 47s): Yes. I think even like, even when you don't realize that you are already creating your world and a map in your mind, you really are, as you start thinking of your story, you think about where the main character, you know, where does the story start. Uh, that's uh, obviously a really good place to maybe start thinking about where your map is. You know, and then you think about where does the character go on the big events? And you start, you're right, you start saying, well, uh, I know with my first book they started in a seaside town and then we needed a big city and then we're going to go across the, uh, big dangerous water and so they're going to go to a desert.

So you start making that list of these are the kinds of areas that I want my store things I want to happen in my story, in places I want my characters to go to. And very quickly you start coming up with a map and to scale it back because of the map I have to create this week for another author is only one city. But it's still an entire story. So you still do the same thing in this city. What are the places they're going to go to? The

Jesper (23m 46s): taverns, the castle, the pal is the docs, the slums. You're going to start mapping out those areas of that you're going to need to create the story or writing. Hmm. Yeah. And, and that's exactly why I wanted to go when it comes to how does maps actually help with writing? Because one thing is that once you start mapping out things, you start thinking of other things that you didn't have and you can sort of use that as inspiration, which is quite nice.

But the other thing is also, I feel like I often, like right now for example, I'm plotting out a book one in our next series. Yeah. And I very often when I sit and I plot a chapter, I ha, I pull up the draft map that we put together. We're not done with the map yet, but, but at least a draft, I put it out just to, because it both gives me a feel of sizes of things, but also distances, which is very, very helpful. Um, so to know, okay, so if, if I'm going to have them go from this city, should that city, how far is it actually on?

How, how long will that take them? Right, right. But with, with the map right there, it's so easy to, uh, quickly calculate, Oh, okay, that triple take a week. Okay. Yeah. Then I know that, uh, instead of, uh, just making it up out of the blue, uh, I think it just helps tremendously. Yes. And to add to that, and I mean, once your map has done, and even as you're, you know, writing next novel or a series, but once it's done and you're saying they're going from here to here and you realize suddenly, you know, they're crossing a high mountain or they're crossing a Marsh and suddenly you have hurdles and other things you can throw in there, or at least descriptions.

And that's that to me. I mean, that added so much to my first series when I suddenly saw all these places, they would go and develop the cultures that would live in these places and made it all different. And I think it really, the book is so much better because I made the map first. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And, and the other thing is that, uh, well maybe it's a quote, the, uh, best fantasy ride a Brandon Sanderson, right? But he said at some point that the whole Lake of Epic fantasy is immersion.

And that I fully agree with, uh, the immersion is what makes a difference. And if you want emotion, I mean, you mentioned it before, what I'm right. I mean, having a map at the front of the book in the first couple of pages that already draws people in. Because also because it's a picture, we like looking at pictures. It, it's much, much easier than reading about, okay, so this city is over there. 500 miles from that city would sits in between. And then there is a Marsh and blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? But pictures right there, you can see it.

You don't even have to explain it. Um, so it, it adds that a emotion, but it also adds realism yet, because I really feel like, and this is something I talk quite a lot about in the, in the guidebook, is maps has to be realistic. I mean, unless of course if you are creating a truly fantastical world where like, like the cities are hanging upside down in the hour or whatever, then it's fine. You can do whatever you want, right? But, but otherwise, if you're creating, you're like more traditional medieval Epic fantasy, which is the case for most of us most of the time.

Uh, or it could also be an urban fantasy in a, in a, in a bit more modern setting. But even if you have a map there, it has to be realistic. By realistic, I'm talking about stuff like, um, well let's take rivers for example. Right? Uh, so rivers, they leave mountains. Um, but then sometimes in some maps you'll see the illustrator then sort of turns the river around and then it passes through and data or like a second mountain range because before it goes to the sea, right.

And rivers won't do that. It would be a very extreme innovation. Yes, it's, it doesn't happen. So it's like an unrealistic floor water. Um, and I could also mention w when a river heads down stream, when it's heading towards the ocean, it won't divide by splitting up S you know, as in one river suddenly becoming two rivers instead, rivers will combine as in two rivers joining to become once. And then on many maps you also see a ton of river deltas.

But actually they are much rarer than one thing. Uh, they are usually found near the coastline, so you can add them there if you want. But these are the kinds of things that you really need to think about and, and you know, infuse your map with this kind of level of realism because the reader might not actually be able to put their fingers on what is wrong, but intuitively they will am. They will just feel like there's something that is a bit off here. Something just doesn't compute here. And that breaks the emotion and, and it's just, yeah, it's sad.

Autumn (28m 51s): It is. I mean it really, if you haven't studied geology or cartography to spend some time with some real maps, real-world maps, uh, where you live or coastlines are islands and really get a feel for what shapes the land and rivers. And you know, what is theoretically possible. I mean there's always exceptions. Like I can think of, you know, if you had a glacial dam burst and it created a Canyon, you could technically have a river go through a mountain range.

It does happen in the Rockies, but this is an incredibly, a rare event and you have to have a geological past and you have to know something about tectonic plates in geology. And so if you don't have that level of knowledge, probably best to stick to rivers, do not cut through the mountains. They, they form little streams go into a bigger, that goes into a river and that goes to the coast and dumps into a Lake or an ocean. That's a pretty safe bet. And you should stick with it.

Jesper (29m 50s): That, yeah, I mean it's, it's honestly not because any of this is very complicated. You just sort of need to get the basic stare and uh, uh, but, but the other thing about the geographical things of it is also it, especially when it comes to why, I don't know why we're talking so much about water, but, but they would go, but especially when it comes to water, what has a very, very big impact on maps, but it also have a very big impact on the cultures or the political borders and so forth.

Because rivers not only provide fresh water to the people living around the rivers, but they are also this kind of land feature that gives you a border basically. Right. So in, in the old days when, uh, I was just about to say, when you can't build a wall to the country, I guess we shouldn't get into all that tobacco. We said we promise takes out of this. Yes, yes. So, but what I would just met this, that it gives you a natural border, right? You could have one nation living on one side of the river if it's like a big river and another nation on the other side.

And it's not necessarily that easy to cross either. So, and it becomes easier to defend as well. So it gives you sort of the lay of the lands with the different nations are kingdoms and so forth and where it makes sense that they would have their borders. The same thing with the mum, right? They also give you natural borders. So yes,

Autumn (31m 20s): just about to say, yes, mountains are these natural features where the river is Marsha's, um, places you can't cross mountains. They're wonderful boarders to help develop your nations. And I was going to mention rivers too, but going back to water, uh, they're not just good borders, but they tend to be where towns and cities developed because water is a means for transporting trade goods. It is something we need to live on. And you often protect your clean water source.

So that's usually where a lot of the cities of the first earliest cultures are you going to develop near fresh water, drinking water. So that's also important aspect of why we focus on water and rivers.

Jesper (32m 3s): Yeah. And it also becomes a sort of the highway of your medieval world, meaning that, you know, traveling on boat downstream and stuff like that, that's by far the fastest way to travel. Or if you're doing like am trading or something, that will also be a way to do that. Uh, the, the fastest and easiest would be to sale. So if the river's like a big river that flows into the ocean or something, uh, then, um, that that's, that's sort of an artery of your trading business in in your world then.

So I think that the point about mentioning all of this is, is really to say that there was a lot of things with creating the map that can influence your work

Autumn (32m 46s): writing directly or the store directly and then things will start falling into place and making sense once you have a map. And to me, I think the biggest thing is, like I mentioned, I usually develop the map and then I see these areas. And I know the part of map making is also, you know, the, whether you knew mountain rages and volcanoes and the, you get down to the nitty gritty of what it would be like to live in this area. I mean I, food is huge for me who were not talking about water. You know, what people would grow to eat there.

And you know, if there's enough resources for the city to grow or a towns and as you start thinking about the food types in the water and the land in the rain, I start developing an actual race in a culture that would live there. And so, you know, my first a story, my first series, there wasn't any traditional fantasy culture is because I made them all up to fit the world I had drawn. That all came from first building the map and then thinking about who are these people that would have lived and grown and adapted to be in this climate.

And, uh, that's one of my favorite parts is just, it's the map creates the seed, the kernel that grows into something truly unique and that fits your world in your story and only your world in your story. And it's exciting.

Jesper (34m 8s): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I really feel like when I open a fantasy book, I know I've said this many times on Twitter as well, but when I opened a fence as you book, if I don't find a map within the first few pages, I'm already a bit disappointed. And it's like, I know not every reader is like me of course, but it's like readers really like fence, see the light, the maps, most of them, yes. And it's a bit like, why do you want to disappoint them right off the bat? No. Yeah, it's very true. I just, I mean, the map is going to help you and the reader will love it.

So why not?

Autumn (34m 42s): Oh, I trust me. I had a, I had a reader who actually really liked the map for my world and obviously they really liked my series. They actually asked if there's a way to buy the map. I mean, talk about getting tingles. That was still, every once in a while he posts a picture of my books underneath the map and I'm like, I don't even have that at my house. I'm so jealous. I want to go there and sit next to his books.

Jesper (35m 4s): Yeah, I actually got the, I actually got the map of, uh, of the world that I used for my previous series. I actually got it made in am poster size, so I can actually hang it on the wall when we move at some point. This is how much we love our maps. Yes. Yes. I love it too much, but, but I don't know. It's, it's like I can clearly recall like I probably been like 10 years old or something. Uh, uh, together with my younger brother, we had like this one, you know, these 83 sized pieces paper, it was some, you know, this Brown recycled paper stuff.

And we rolled it out across the dinner table, my parents dinner table in the living room, and we had multiple of these and we'd take them all together so they feel like the entire a table. And then we just started, I, I clearly remember like there was no real plan to it, but we just started throwing, okay, so here's some mountains and here's the city. And, and Oh, and then from there it just evolved into some sort of game that we started playing. Right. But, but I still remember that like that's the first memory I have of creating a map and I just loved, and I think my parents hated it because we occupied the table for like four days, but they're on a campaign going, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. But, but I, I don't know, I still have that recollection. I, I always, always loved,

Autumn (36m 29s): I think it would be a rare fantasy author who doesn't have some kind of map and world-building drive that or appreciation because that's sort of what's, it's a pillar of what makes a fantasy novel, a fantasy novel. And it hasn't been, I mean I've written and I do write occasionally in this world, but you still, you still need to get, Oh go look at the map of, of you know, how far is it from this distance and what are the unique features of this area. Cause I started in Wales and I found a place where there's actually this bridge that crosses an entire Lake in Wales.

It's like a mile and a half long. And I'm like that gotta use that somewhere. So it's still an exploration. It's still looking at maps. I think it's just appreciate appreciation for the realism that's there. So I know before we wrap up, do we want to give any like specific steps if you're making a map, you know, we said, okay, list out the areas you need, then you're going to do your coastlines after coastlines. I usually would do rivers. And from rivers cities, but I know also, I mean, do we have to worry about if you're really going to be realistic, you're looking at tectonic plates, which is what would create the mountains, uh, weather patterns.

These are all parts of actually making a map and it's, it's complicated, but yeah. You know, sometimes it doesn't have to be if it's a very small map

Jesper (37m 54s): yeah, I I, yeah. As you started out by saying in the beginning, I have a full step by step guide on fantasy map making. Uh, and it's both available in an ebook and paperback. Maybe I'll just add the link in the show notes if anybody's interesting. But basically that talks you through step by step what order I would do things in because it does matter a bit. But maybe that's a bit too technical. But actually I was thinking autumn maybe. So if we're going by the assumption here that at least most of all us fantasy writers we like maps.

If we're using that SDS assumption, then I think that the reason that sometimes maps are not included in books is because it is

Autumn (38m 36s): too daunting to create the map maybe. But if we're now saying, okay fine, there is, you know, you can get the step by step guide on the order of it. So if we sort of put, take that out of the equation and say okay, the problem is then not the fact that you don't know what order to do things in and what to do, but maybe the, the the, if we didn't focus on the remaining problem that might be here and that is actually how do you, how do you make the map you know, why your hand drawing or using software, how do you do it?

Maybe that's a good place to sort of wrap up because I think that that, that's probably the only remaining hurdle that I can come up with right here. Well that's fair enough. And I will also, I will try to find the blog post that, um, my little fantasy met making one Oh one that we can add to the show notes as well. But if you're really, I think even when I start with maps, I still do hand drawing. And to me the, one of the biggest things is start with the biggest piece of paper you can get your hands because I, I the, I totally scrunched up my world and it still doesn't look right to me and I keep wanting to redo my original map because I started with like copy paper, you know, something, a letter size and eight and a half by 11 if he raped, drove really small.

But you know, go to the art store and buy yourself a poster side sheet of paper and, and start with that. Even if it's going, even if you're not an artist, um, it's just grab a pencil. I'd recommend pencil. I, I like being able to erase, but start with that and start with drawing. You know that for he'll put a. Dot. This is where your book starts. This is that first city. And then work out there from your coastlines. But after that, you know, if you are good with computers, if you, you can take that original map after you get it all sketched out in a raised and everything fit in where you want it to and you can do that online or you can take that and hire an artist to do it and they, they're still gonna say, Hey, you know, you can describe it to me just like you can describe it to your readers.

But a visual is so important no matter how rough and how horrible you think it looks. It really helps to have something scribbled out on paper to outline what it is you're hoping to see in your finished product. And there's some great programs out there. There's a photography programs, there's some, uh, people who do roleplaying games. There's some great things that you can make, some half decent maps that are out there. And of course, you know, I like to put all mine in Photoshop because I'm just, I just love Photoshops so much cause you're the person I have definitely grown to be very fond of the program, but it's not the only one out there.

There's some other great programs too, so you should learn to, yeah, I can just mention a fractional map one. There's skimp. There is a dope illustrator

Jesper (41m 34s): there was incarnate, which has actually become better and better and better with the latest releases that they've made. And then there's also cam campaign cap tracker for three, which is the software that I used before sort of a autumn state and took over the map to sign. But uh, yeah, there's, there's quite a lot of options out there. Some of them are easier to use. Some of them are more complicated. I mean Kemp campaign can talk earth chakra for three. Jesus, that's how to stay. Um, that, that one is a bit complicated to you, that it has a steep learning curve.

Uh, but again, I mean go to our YouTube channel and there was actually, again, a step-by-step, I like those step by step things, but there is a step by step video series actually take you from scratch to, uh, using campaign could track over three up and exactly where to click and what to do. So there is that on the YouTube channel if you want. But otherwise there are, there are these different tools incarnate as far as I see, I've not tried it myself, but as far as I've seen all the tutorial videos, it's looks like it's pretty easy to use.

Um, and I think what I would say is that if you want to put your map into a book that you're going to publish, then I agree with what autumn said in the sense that it's great to use these different tools or even if you do it the hand drawing, that's fine as well. But it's great to use something to get to an illustration of how, what you want the map to look like, right? So that you can easily see here all the cities here, the mountains and, and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Everything is there. And so did you can give it to somebody who knows what they're doing. Uh, and then they will do the final touches on it and shine it up so that it becomes something that you can put into a novel. Uh, because you don't want to put in like let's say a campaign campaign tracker for three on incarnate or whatever, gimp or whatever you're using. You don't want to put ex tracked of that into a novel because it doesn't look professionally enough. So there is that caveat.

Yes. But of course, if you can give the artist, here it is, it's exactly like this, you know, in terms of the placement of everything. And then just give them a bit of freedom and say, you know, play with it at the design of it, you know, make it, make it look professional and good. But I just want the different cities and the names and whatnot and the mountains and the rivers and all the other stuff. I wanted to look like this, but the actual finish touch of it or the layout, uh, I don't know if you can use that word, but you can, you know, feel free to, to be an artist and, and make that look really good.

Uh, as long as you don't move things around on the map. Right. And being from the artist's point of view where I've done this for other authors, yes. That, that map the sketch, knowing where if someone wants to coastlines is just huge. You, you're going blind if you don't have that. So no matter how you feel about your drawing skills,

Autumn (44m 32s): sketch it out and even it helps almost to finish writing the book before you try to get the map completed. Cause you'll be surprised at how many times you add something new through your first book and even through your subsequent books. I mean, I had, I had some features created by my characters that I had to add in later for later additions. But that's sort of the fun of creating a map and actually having the world grow with your stories.

Narrator (45m 0s): Perfect. I think that's a wrap. Next Monday we'll cover something that is heavily debated and that is how much should you read when you're writing. If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month.

You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 61 – The Hurdles Facing Women Authors with Alexa Bigwarfe

Do women authors face unique challenges?

Autumn and special guest, Alexa Bigwarfe, delve into this topic as well as ways to support women authors.

Alexa is a USA Today bestselling author, runs Write, Publish, Sell and is the organizer of the Women in Publishing Summit.

This episode has tips not just for women, but for anyone who is busy or feels too overwhelmed to tackle dreams such as writing.

Check out the Women in Publishing Summit which runs from March 2 - 8. Registration starts at FREE! Check it out at https://womeninpublishingsummit.com/.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (0s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need in literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Autumn (29s): Hello, I'm autumn and this is episode 61 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and the women have taken over today. Yes, for is a way, and so today we instead have author and organizer Alexa Bigwarfe and she is joining me for a discussion on the hurdles facing women authors. So hello Alexa welcome to the podcast.

Alexa (51s): Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy you could join us today. And actually right now I'm over in Vermont and it's a beautiful sunny day, so thank you for being inside and, uh, hanging out with me. Absolutely. Well, I'm in South Carolina where it's normally beautiful and sunny, but today it's overcast and gross, so

Autumn (1m 13s): that worked out for you then. It's great. Fantastic. And so I have a little introduction so that people can listening can get and feel of for who you are. And so we'll just get that out of the way till we can free up the discussion. So Alexa you are a wife, a mother of three, a dog owner, which I'm going to have to ask what kind of dog and an advocate for those without a voice. You are passionate about advocating for women's and children's rights and discusses these topics on your podcast, which is the same name as a series you've written lose the Cape.

So you're also a USA today bestselling author and you're an editor and publisher of lose the Cape anthology series sunshine after the storm, a survival guide for the grieving mother. Ditch the fear and just write it and many other books. And if all of that isn't enough, you also run and organize the women in publishing summit every year, which I took part last year and loved it and I can't wait to it for it to be this year. And you also run the write publish sell website, which is dedicated to helping authors.

So I don't know how you fit all of that. And really

Alexa (2m 22s): I don't sleep much is my standard answer on that one.

Autumn (2m 26s): I understand. I know when I first started writing and people asked how I found time to do it, I would look at them straight with a dead pan face and say, I'm a vampire, I'm gonna start using that one. That's a much better answer. Oh, you know, it throws them off. Like they were kind of like, are you serious?

Alexa (2m 44s): I love it. Well, you know, now that my three children are all in school for seven hours a day like it or six, seven hours, however long they're gone, um, it makes a big difference and I'm able to cram a lot more in. My husband swears that multi multitasking is impossible and that is just one of the many differences between men and women because I think women can run circles around men and doing multiple things at the same time.

Autumn (3m 10s): I highly agree, which is so like I said, it'd be so much fun for taking over the podcast today, we'll probably, you know, solve all the problems of the world. While all smell disgusting, you know. Right. That's right. That's right. Excellent. Well, I'm so happy to have you here and I have to say, so I'm a dog lover too. Um, my, I have a current terrier who is like a giant golden version of Toto. So what kind of dog do you have?

Alexa (3m 33s): Dog Mia is a, she's definitely a mix of a yellow lab and something else that could be picked could be bulldog, could be all kinds of combinations. She's a mutt. She was a rescue, so we don't know what she is fully, but she is truly the sweetest dog we've ever come across. And she's a gentle giant. We love her.

Autumn (3m 54s): Yeah, that's just, I absolutely adore dogs. And that was actually sort of how I ended up with my husband. He had the cutest dog. Oh my God. So I fell in love with a dog, kept the boys. It's worked out

Alexa (4m 6s): well. There you go. So there is some truth to be told to men getting puppies and taking them for walks in the park if they're looking to pick up chicks. Huh?

Autumn (4m 13s): Yeah. So we're already giving dating tips to anyone out there listening. Yes. If you are trying to get together with someone, a really cute dog or a wonder,

Alexa (4m 22s): well you know, being a writer can be such a life of solitude that maybe maybe we do need to throw out some tips for social interaction from time to time.

Autumn (4m 33s): That's like she probably, we could get away with a podcast of like writing or dating tips for writers because we're all introverts, so we're like, I know sometimes if my husband didn't be like, are we eating today? Are you doing anything other than taking your laptop somewhere of like, Oh you are here. I didn't know you were in the house.

Alexa (4m 50s): Exactly. I did the same thing though with my three children. It's generally not a good thing. So we have a rule that when I'm working they're only allowed to come bother me if one of them is bleeding or, or really like truly needs my help. It can't be an argument over which television Joe they can watch. So

Autumn (5m 9s): yeah, I saw a reverse am blog article once, which I wish I could find it again. If anyone is listening and knows of this one, it was a family's interpretation of a mother's writing, a writer, mother's hand signals, and you know, she would hold up the one finger which to her about one minute and the family is like, okay, give her five. If she holds up two fingers, it's like give her 10 not two minutes. And if she gives you a full stop, it means do not fricking bothering me right now. She is on a roll. Go leave the house and come back into.

That is so true. It's just like there's what we think we got going on and then there's what the rest of the world realizes. We really mean when we say no, not now. Oh my gosh. So yes, if anyone knows of it, please send it to me. I've lost the link and it just cracked me up whenever I read it. It was fantastic. But anyway, so I'm so excited to have you here and I love that you're a USA today bestselling author. You have so much information and so many things that you're doing, but how did you start out?

When were you, when were you a newbie and how did you start writing

Alexa (6m 16s): well, it's kind of a sad story, so I'm sorry to bring anybody down here. Um, I actually, I wanted this, so the first part, it's not so sad. I've wanted to write since I was a little girl. I mean I started writing my name all over my grandparents couches and walls as soon as I could hold a pen, right. Which, uh, they were not very happy. But um, um, so I I self, I self illustrated and wrote my first book at the age of six called my unicorn. My mother threw it away at some point in time, so tears, no, but I always wanted to write and I'm one of those kids who if you go back and look through my stuff from like middle school and high school, like I have stories upon stories that I started but never quite finished.

I have like index cards of, of I, I one of those title people. So I would just daydream titles for day is, you know, cause I had like 700 titles of books and stories, you know. But um, somewhere along the line, uh, my dad was the mill in the military. We moved overseas. I totally fell in love with am overseas stuff and I wound up majoring in international studies and then eventually I went into the air force. Um, so I was doing, I was in air force intelligence officer and I did for for a decade.

I did technical writing and briefs and really, uh, really honed my writing, my writing and speaking skills through that career. And then writing um, some counter terrorism, uh, briefings and things like that for the state of South Carolina after I left the military. It's a very interesting career. Very, very interesting. I loved what I did. Um, like I said, 10 years total time working for the air force and for the state of South Carolina and doing really, really cool things and writing a lot of emergency plans and all this kind of stuff, grant writing, all of that dry boring stuff.

But it trained me very well in technical writing and am I decided to, it was, it was hard working in counter terrorism and by that point in time we had two small children. So I decided to stay at home and um, be a stay at home mom because I thought that would be easier. Um, it was not, we decided to have our third child cause my husband and I are both the third of four children and we were like, we can't stop before we get to number three obviously.

Um, and when we, I went in for my first ultrasound and they found out that there were two. So we had number three and 4:00 AM together. But a long, long story short, um, the babies were identical twins. They had, they suffered from a syndrome called twin to twin transfusion syndrome, which is very, very deadly if not treated. It was very scary and we thought both babies were going to die. We went through a lot of, lot of stuff, a lot of hospitalizations and they were born 10 weeks early.

And, um, Caris, my surviving twin was one pound 10 ounces and she spent, yeah, she was a little bitty. She lo fighter, she spent three months in the NICU and her sister, Catherine, um, just had entirely too many, uh, issues. And she only stayed with us for two days before she was, it was very sad. So in that time frame, there's obviously a lot of stuff going on. And I started blogging as a way to deal with grief and anger and just shock and awareness to tell other people about this syndrome that I felt my doctors were so poorly educated on.

And, you know, all these things. So I took the blogging and, um, really found a space and place for not only helping other grieving mothers, but for helping people who didn't know how to deal with grieving mothers. Like what might be the most common search term is still to this day, eight years later, uh, what do I say to someone who's just lost a baby? So I started writing on those topics and um, and I decided that I wanted to do more. By that point in time, I had am really gotten into a big community of other bloggers and writers on grief.

And so I reached out to a bunch of people that I knew who, who were, who were doing things, either they were setting up organizations to support grieving families where they were blogging about it or they were doing all these different things. And I invited, um, I think it's 34 of us total. So I reached out to all these people and ask them to be a part of this project that I wanted to do, which was a book called sunshine after the storm, a survival guide for the grieving mother. And it's basically like, Oh yeah, it was. So, it was a really healing project for me.

So part of my mission across the years has been using writing as a tool to heal and how no matter what genre, whether it's a children's book or a nonfiction book or even a fiction book, like there's so many ways that you can use your writing to work through things in your own life to heal to all of those things. So, yeah. So I became an accidental publisher basically because, you know, I just, I fell in love with the process and wanted to learn everything I could possibly learn about publishing.

And then we started the lose the Cape series, which is our guide for am for moms. Cause I was still raising children. So we did that and like, so now I've got more books coming out and people are coming to me, what are you doing? How are you doing this? I want to write a book. How do I do it? Yeah. So right. Publish sell was born.

Autumn (11m 44s): That is amazing. So yes, I mean basically from almost before you started putting the words that became your published novel on paper, you've been helping other on their journey from the get go. Right?

Alexa (11m 55s): Yeah. So, so yeah, through the, through the blogging and then through am basically kind of, so some people who were also writing on grief came to me first. And this is when I realized that that there was an opportunity for me to really help a lot of other people is because they came to me and they were like, Hey, I don't know how to get my book a formatted and I don't know how to do this and I don't know how to do that. So it started off with me just kind of helping out my friends in the green area who wanted to write and publish books too. And then, you know, word caught on. I started realizing that I, well, first of all being a stay at home mom, but just never quite worked out for me.

I, I wanted to be doing more like constantly. So I knew I didn't want to leave my kids though I still wanted that flexibility of being able to be home with them. And so I was looking for opportunities and at this time, like this is when like digital, the digital world was just blowing up. I mean, so all this stuff is happening, eBooks coming out, you know, all these, all these big transitions. So I was able to start looking at maybe I could be a blogger and make money through blogging. Maybe I could do this, maybe I could do that.

And so I just built my business from the ground up, doing a lot of different things. And, and um, eventually as I was working with these different writers, I realized that I didn't want to just help them prepare their book for publication. Like I wanted to be a publisher. So I took on that role and we have am, Kat, biggie press and purple butterfly press and Chrysalis press, which are nonfiction, basically hybrid press, a children's book, hybrid press. And then Chrysalis is our traditional publishing house.

But we have, we had a slow down, we took on way too much, way too fast. So we have stopped submissions for all of those for a while because now I'm focusing on the women and publishing summit

Autumn (13m 43s): I know, I can't wait til we talk about that, but before we do, I want to, so what do you think I get into, what do you think are the differences between a woman author and our account? Our male counterparts because I know I've definitely seen some differences and it's interesting. It's so it's kinda fun to open up that conversation and maybe some guys will get some perspective into, you know, helping their struggling female partners who want to be writers too. There's so many different

Alexa (14m 9s): is across the board from the way that we tackle our projects to our mindset issues. Like when guys in general, this is all generalizations of course, but generally speaking, when a dude decides he's going to do something, he sits down and he does it. If a guy decides I'm gonna write a vampire paranormal, romance, Blab, blah, blah, shape shifter, you know, whatever. Throughout all your, I'm not a fantasy writer, so I do

Autumn (14m 37s): you're doing really good. This might make these next book.

Alexa (14m 42s): I decided I'm going to sit down and write it. Generally speaking, I'm not saying that they don't have fears and challenges in that, but they sit down and they do it. Whereas a woman were like, well, do I know enough? I don't have an MFA. I've never taken a writing class. Can I do this or are people gonna laugh at me? What are they going to do? Like who am I? Like all these things just start going through our minds as women. So we have issues from there, you know, just in terms of can I do this, will I do this? But then I mean there's like a thousand other things women whether you're a mother or not, women tend to be the ones who take on the roles of caretakers, caregivers, planners, organizers.

So we're doing all the things in our lives. We're the ones who generally speaking, again, nobody threw rotten tomatoes at me. And you know what, there is a shift going on like my husband now is a stay at home dad, so I can't, you know, stay at home dads slash he works part time in my business now. But um, but, but you know, so, so I know that men are doing all these things as well. But generally speaking, like we just, we approach things differently. We have different things that hold us back. We have different things that hold us back in the world.

Like the, if you, every once in a while I see the article come up about how many women had to um, use mail pen names because that's the only way they could sell sell books, you know, so, so there are not only internal things that stop us from moving forward. There are still very definite external things happening in our world that, that keep women from having the same level of success. And I'm not one of those, you know, door bang feminists, like men need to die, all that kind of stuff that you see that you see some people on the far extreme side.

But I what I do, but I do see, I do see some challenges that women have to face and especially marginalized voices, women of color, women in any type of super minority type thing. You know, there, there's a lot of challenges still out there. So you know, it

Autumn (16m 45s): no. Yeah, I totally agree. Cause I know like I think my F the first question I often hear when female authors asking themselves is when can I find the time? Because I agree. It seems like every woman author I know is even myself, I don't have kids. We decided not to a long time ago before we even got together, so it worked out. But it's still, I'm the primary cook, you know, I tend to do the primary organizational things that he does the primary and be like maintenance things and he's putting them in. But you're right, it's like, I'm going to go and I'm going to go do this now and then it'll be done and then I'm going to go and do this now.

And for me it's like, well, I've got to juggle this. I gotta deal with this. I've got to get this done today at blah, blah, blah. You know, it's like I have 16 balls in the air and I'm like, can I throw out the 17th if it's a pedo of size? But it means, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. Yeah. Do it's exhau. It's, I really think we struggle with trying to hold it all together and carve out that time for ourselves. It's

Alexa (17m 41s): very unusual, um, from the men that I see in my life again. So I'm just using my little am snapshot of the world here. It's very to see a guy when I see them want to do something to stop and think, now, wait a minute, what am I going to get the laundry done and when am I going to get food and do I have a menu plan and do I have, you know, no. They're like, okay, I'm going to join the hockey team and I'm going to go play hockey or I'm going to write a book or I'm gonna, you know, learn how to play the guitar or go hang out with friends or go, you know, that's they, they just, they do.

And some women just do two and it's a L it's a thing that I'm having to teach myself actually, is that it's, if I have to focus on whatever it is, that is my priority and if it is my priority, then I have to be willing to let other things slide. It's okay if we eat leftovers for two days in a row. My kids don't think so, but I'm okay feeding them. It's okay to order from time to time. It's okay to let them watch movies as well. I write on a Saturday afternoon, you know, so,

Autumn (18m 45s): Oh, I love that. No, I, I totally agree and I think that's we. I love your lose. Lose the Cape series. I hadn't seen it until I was looking up stuff, but it's so true. We all think we have to do it all. We have to do it and I've learned even in my life to be much more advocating too. I think that's one thing. Guys are really good at saying, I am doing this and they stayed at, they go and do it and if they don't get something done or if someone else has to pick up the Slack wherever the chips fall, they just go and do it and women. We tend to be like, how can I fit that in where if it's something we're passionate about, sometimes you just have to say, I am doing this and you're either going to have to help or it is not going to happen because I am doing this and it's so scary.

Sometimes we'd switch with you in a relationship where you're the one who tends to pick up the other half of everything. But yeah, sometimes you just have to do it. And even am I've hit 45 now and I'm still learning.

Alexa (19m 39s): Okay. That's really funny. If you've been in a relationship with somebody for a long time when you're like, Nope, I'm not doing that anymore. Sorry. You've got to do the grocery shopping. You've got, you know, it's funny, as we shift roles a little bit now, this is a recent change for us. So we are still very much in the figuring it all out phase of him being the primary house person and you know, it's still in my nature to like stop work. It's like look at the clock and be like, Oh my gosh, it's six o'clock we have to eat dinner and I somebody, somebody's got to cook it.

So it must be me. So you know, I've had to stop and say, you know what, he knows where the food is, you know, and tell him like, Hey, it's six o'clock I'm not ready to stop yet. I have deadlines, I need you to make dinner. And you know, we're getting better at it. But it is, yeah, it's a, it's a challenge.

Autumn (20m 28s): It is. I mean, I've been with my husband, we've known each other 20 years this year and we've been married 18 and so agreed. We've, I mean for any relationship to last that long, it goes through a lot of changes. There's a saying that may you have, um, I think it's one merit, one spouse in many marriages, in other words, stay with the same person, but your marriage shifts and changes and it's a, it's a wonderful terminology saying, you know what? Nothing is ever the same. Everything keeps changing. You're both going to change. And yes, I've seen that.

Definitely as we've grown from our twenties to our thirties and now we're the hitting our forties. And it is just interesting to see the dynamics change in me learning to be much more of an advocate and him learning to he's, I still think guys, sometimes they cannot, if you do not tell them by the way this needs to be done, they don't really figure it out. But maybe that's just all the guys I go with my life. He's like, okay, the thing sitting in the front in the middle of the room. Yes, there's some general truth to that, but I do feel, so I started reading with fantasy.

Um, it was definitely, you know, it is my genre, it's what I'm passionate about. But I always felt very fortunate because the first author I picked up was ed McCaffrey. So a woman. My next favorite was Mercedes Lackey. My favorite book was written by Terry Wendling and I've always loved Margaret Weis. This is like from the day I started reading fantasy and fell in love with it. I've had these Paragon women's, I didn't start with, um, Tolkin or you know, all the guys I started with the women and I've always, I didn't realize it at the time as a young girl, I always joked that my mother never believed in women's lib and I think she just didn't know what to do with me.

When I started getting my boys, she's kinda like, I don't know where you came from. She wanted a, a daughter would have kids and stay near home and a son who would go off and conquer the world. And she got a son that stayed home and had kids and a daughter who wanted to go off and conquer the world. So she got what she wanted just in the wrong genders. And I'm fine with that. And she's learning. But it's always, I've always seen all these very wonderful Ursula Kayla Gwyn. I mean all these wonderful, I can ramble off all these women named, but you're right.

So many genres women authors have either hidden, their names are using, sit at pseudonyms or initials. And I do still see that with the young authors I work with. Uh, it's becoming more rare, which is really exciting. But even like, I think two years ago I had someone say, you know, I don't want, I don't want my first name, you know, Joanna or something. I want to use my initials cause I don't want them to know I'm a woman. I was like, wow, that's still out there.

Alexa (23m 11s): And, um, the, I I pretty sure, no, I'm just pulling this out of nowhere like most people do with statistics, but, um, I'm fairly certain it was still as late as 2018, maybe even the 2019 report that showed that book sales by either, um, male names or books by men. We're outperforming books by women authors like tremendously. So

Autumn (23m 36s): it would not surprise me any of that. But I know I've seen it with

Alexa (23m 43s): Apple years. I don't know if that has shifted, um, since since the me too movement really. I mean a lot of things have really, really taken a different turn since then. And that was a very, very well-timed, uh, movement to happen actually because it happened right as I was getting ready to launch my first womeninpublishingsummit three years ago. So that's amazing. I was like, sweet. The rest of the world is on the same page as me.

Autumn (24m 13s): That's right. We were ready for something specific, a space for women to be able to help each other. And I think for so if we're as long as week, stay away from undermining each other when you, but authors are so good at not looking at other authors as competition. And I think women authors can be so helpful and supportive of each other even more so than you know, many other areas in places I've been in, other things I've done and seen super true.

Alexa (24m 39s): And the fiction side, like I have seen fiction authors really band together really well. I love to see the authors cross-promote each other. I mean, I think everybody's smart enough to know that you ha that it works with people in your own genre. Like it's hard to cross promote someone who's writing something that your audience doesn't want to read. But, um, I think I, I've seen some really great partnerships on the fiction side. I think the w the nonfiction side is still a little bit different and I think it's because I want to say something that's probably, I'm, I'm glad you have a fiction audience, so hopefully there's not a lot of nonfiction.

Autumn (25m 14s): So there'll be kind, everyone be kind NonFiction's

Alexa (25m 17s): aren't like that. Okay. The word I will choose to use is a day in and day out authors like fiction writers. This is what you want to do every day, all day, all the time. You write your books, you read your books and all this kind of stuff. But a lot of nonfiction authors, unless they're in a series like unless they do autobiographies of all the presidents or something like that, where it is truly their thing, like a nonfiction author often has a, a particular subject that they focus on and they write books as part of a bigger thing, right?

Like I was writing my lose the Cape books as part of a bigger community for mothers. Um, I was writing my S my grief books as part of a bigger thing. Like I didn't come on thinking I'm going to write a 25 part series on, you know, grieving weathers. So, so I think what I see sometimes is that not, not, uh, not that they don't want to help each other, but they don't, they haven't been raised to realize that they're not competition raised in their genre, if you know what I mean.

So, um, it's not the case at all in the grieving mothers community. Like everybody is 100% supportive of each other. We share all each other's stuff. We do everything that we can. But in some other industries I think you see people get very nervous about competition and that's um, kind of another one of the things that we take on is letting people know that, um, the, you know, the expression with, with a rising tide, we all ships rise, you know, so it's, it's w if you're helping other women, if you're helping other people in your genre, if you're helping promote other, and the reason I came to form this opinion just to let you know, is that because I saw it in action, I reached out to my network and I said, I have an author that's publishing a book on X, Y, Z.

um, we would love for you to be part of her launch team and advanced reader team. And the, and the answer that we got back was, I can't do that. I have a book that's coming out. It's on a similar topic. The books were not similar at all. Like, I mean they were in the similar genre, but like in terms of the key takeaways of the book. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So the key takeaways and everything were different enough that, and the audiences would have been different enough but yet enough the same to support each other, you know?

And it really, it really made me think that there's still a lot of people who don't maybe don't realize like how much better we do when we're helping each other. Um, so anyway, sorry, that was a long tangent. That really is, I just, I just want to put that out there to say that like they're really, it really, you made the comment that there is not a lot of competition in books and I really truly agree that there is not competition in books. And the reason I say that is because I'm a voracious reader and I know my reading habits and I right now am on a huge world war two bad-ass females kit.

Right? Right. Any stories of women who just did incredible crap in world war II is on my, I will read everything out there. I don't care if the storylines are similar, I don't care. Like I want to read it all. And I think that's how many readers are, would they, they want everything. Right. So by being able to share about other writers who write in similar, similar types of things, you're able to say, Hey, I don't have anything new for you, but if you like my stuff, you're going to love these books and keep them entertained until your next one comes out.

Right.

Autumn (28m 56s): All right. Uh, yeah. Especially, yeah, when books take you over a year sometimes to write if not longer, especially nonfiction, if you're researching can take you so long and yeah, it's better to support each other than, you know, pretend like no one else exists in everyone's waiting with baited breath just for your book. And even like no

Alexa (29m 19s): could be considered a very competitive, a cookbook for example. Like, if you've got two people rating vegan cookbooks, well I can tell you that I like a variety of recipes and I like a variety. Like I just, cause I buy one vegan cookbook doesn't mean I'll never buy another one again. You should see my cook.

Autumn (29m 37s): Exactly. It's ridiculous. Yeah. I, I think, uh, the internet and being able to Google recipes is become one of my favorite things about the writers. Your day may have come. No, but there's still something really nice about that big book with the big pictures that you can put on your counter and look at why you're, but anyway, we digress and you don't have to worry about them battery dying or getting like flour.

Alexa (30m 4s): Exactly. But, but back to the idea of like this, this community, um, the real reason behind the women and publishing summit was, um, I was like I told you once I decided I was doing this thing, I wanted to learn everything in the world that I could about publishing. So my writing summit is one of many summits that are out there that happen all the time for writers, publishers, authors, you know, marketing, book, marketing, all these things are happening all the time. So I'm, I'm attending as many of them as I can and learning from as many people, but I was noticing like on the panels and the presentations, one, there was very little female representation.

So for like, yeah, for like every five guys there was like one girl and then um, the number of minorities was almost nonexistent in some of the ones that I was looking at. So,

Autumn (30m 55s): and your pro, your, you know, I didn't really think about it, but yeah, you're right. I most of the ones I'm very, very, very white and very, um, at least the people, maybe the attendees are a lot of women out there, but you're right, a lot of the panels and stuff don't seem to always include. So I reached out

Alexa (31m 12s): do the one that I was attending at that particular time and I was like, Hey, where are the ladies? Was like, I follow a lot of women in the publishing world. And I know that there's some women doing some fantastic things with writing and publishing and book marketing and editing and I'm like, I don't see them in your thing. And he was just like, oops, we'll work on that for the future. It's been three years since then and I haven't really seen an increase, but that's okay because I filled the gap with my own annual all summit but women and people that identify as women.

Autumn (31m 48s): That is so wonderful. And so you started, this will be your third year coming up. Correct. And it's coming up just around the corner. So this, we're recording this early, but this'll be released at the end of February and the next summit is March. Then you can register for free,

Alexa (32m 4s): free at women and publishing, summit.com am

Autumn (32m 9s): and I'll have that in the show notes so people can follow the little things. A lot of fun.

Alexa (32m 13s): What I decided to do with it was I was like, okay, so this is cool. We started out our conversation with talking about how women are different. So one of the things that's going to make this and that does make this thing different is that we talk about the things that make women different. Like we don't specifically say in an interview. So what makes you different as a woman writer,

Autumn (32m 32s): but we do, we talk about my process that

Alexa (32m 37s): are applicable to women and men. If you have men in your audience, they're still gonna learn a ton of information because the knowledge base is incredible, but we're not afraid to talk about things like, well how did you schedule it around having three children and this and that, or what was it like when you're, you know, if you're doing this and that or you know, what are the challenges, the mindset challenges that you deal with? Because we do have different mindset challenges and well, you know, marketing strategies that work better for, for women because we are afraid to just say I'm doing this and go for it or not all of us.

Again, you know, these are just common things that pop up are we talk about topics that are like really, really, really unique to women in most cases. Like trauma, sexual trauma, and, um, the, the need for our stories to be heard. And, um, and what it's like to be a minority minority or what is like to be a transgender am women yeah, I guess he is. He is now a man that are transgender, um, participant from the first year.

So, you know, we, we did deep, it all relates to publishing or relates to writing or do the things related to the production and publishing of a book. But from this, from the viewpoint of being, you know, the, the woman's viewpoint on things.

Autumn (34m 1s): It sounds, I know. And I know it's a wonderful summit and I, like I said, I was, uh, took part as a participant last year. This year I get to be on a panel and so excited. But yes, I love it. Writing tips. So that'll be fantastic. But it's just a, it's a wonderful dynamic and I agree. I love the fact that guys can attend. So like if there's a single father out there who's struggling to make everything juggle and also wants to write or has had past trauma because goodness knows between PTSD and there's so many things the me too movement is letting guys know that they can show this side of themselves as well.

So it is a very inclusive and welcoming summit where if you have questions that just everyone seems to gloss over and a lot of, Oh we just do it, you know, go get it done. So the next step just go to the next step. And they don't deal with the emotional hurdles that are underneath or between those steps. This is a great place to get those like answered it without being embarrassed. And I figured out how to juggle it all and keep going and still get up the next day and keep them away

Alexa (35m 3s): real. It's a very professional conference, but we get really real and um, you know, and some of them, some of them are just straight up teaching and knowledge and information and you're now going to find that touchy feely side to it because we want people to know, you know, this is how you market a book. This is how you build your email list. This is how you find an editor. This is how you make sure you're not getting screwed over by an editor. This is the important things. And so the way we've organized it is the five days we have day one is like the big picture stuff.

Why, if you're just thinking about writing a book am why you might want to do it. It's, it's more like inspiration and that the types of things that we were just talking about, those would, we definitely hit on a day one marginalized voices and how we feel and you know, all those types of things. We dig right into it. And then, um, or over the course of the next four days, we hit things like all the tools that you need. Not all of them obviously cause there's a bit Jillian Brazilian. But the main things like editing tips, editing, production tips, getting your book formatted, am how you distribute your book, all of these types of things.

We talk about marketing a lot, lots and lots and lots of great marketing stuff. Um, and then, uh, the day five this year, we've changed it up a little bit in day five is all about the business of being an author. So if you're struggling, yeah, if you're struggling with things like I don't think we have anybody talking about taxes this year. I may put my, uh, I may put the one from last year and as a replay just cause it was great information. But you know, just knowing these things, like now you're writing books with the hope to sell like you're a business owner.

Own it.

Autumn (36m 43s): Oh wait, stop wondering if you're truly an author and own your business and do it. That's a, that's a very good tip to anyone listening who has a book out there.

Alexa (36m 55s): Stinks. And, and, uh, you know, we want to write we have our passion, we're doing these things. And it stinks to have to sit and say, okay, now I have to go through all my receipts and log my expenses and you know, gather up my data and all this stuff. But there's some really, really, really important things that authors don't know that they need to know. Like if you are selling your book directly from your website, you better check in with your, your local state to find out if you have to have a retail license so that you don't get, cause yeah.

Cause I mean that they might cost 25 to $50 to get registered as a retail license, but if you get, they're cracking down harder and harder on digital stuff. So if you get fined for not doing things properly, it's going to be worse for you. You know? Um, and just as a side note, if anybody's panicking about it, if you just put links through to like Amazon or iBooks or anything like that, you're not the retailer. They are. So you don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. They collect taxes, they do all of that stuff. But if you actually have a Shopify store or a PayPal button and you are actually selling books directly from your website that you then, you know, distribute and all that kind of stuff, you do do need to check in and see what, what kind of protections you need to have, what kind of paperwork you need to have, all of that kind of stuff.

So that's just one little tip there that's totally off the topic. But it's important. And this is something that I learned along the way and I was like that's really scary cause I'm telling people all the time to sell their books on their website to make more money and not have to worry about, you know, Amazon or whatever. And um, I might be getting them in trouble if they don't know the rest of the story.

Autumn (38m 35s): Do

Alexa (38m 36s): that's, I mean that's a huge nugget that I don't think anyone else has really ever been mentioning cause you're right, I've even heard like, you know, sell signed copies, do this on your website. But that's perfect because that's a little lovely little teaser tips. So if people want to go enjoy this summit that's the type of information you're going to find there. And that's why it's really fantastic to join this one because it is information that there might be other ones out there, but I think yours has a different feel and a different vibe and different topics that you might not hear in many other channels.

So it's really exciting. I'm looking out for each other, we're looking out for each other and we're making sure that we don't make mistakes that are costly.

Autumn (39m 16s): Yes. And I, again, I think that's what women are amazingly good at. We help each other out and make sure that, you know, we keep each other safe and supported and you know, we're also very welcoming. So for anyone else who's looking for support, we like to open our arms and you know, make sure they're doing okay too. Well, is there any other tips? Anything else you want to tell us about the conference? Like I said, I will put it in the show notes and it's coming up on March 2nd and you said registration is free on the website.

Alexa (39m 45s): We have am three tiers so you can register for free and you can come each day. You have to, you do have to register to receive the links, you'll get the links each day. Um, and we dropped like between five and eight videos every day that are available for 24 hours. And then they go away at 10:00 AM the next morning. And, um, if you, if you're like, I cannot sit in front of my computer all day long, every day, you could buy just those videos for $47 and watch them whenever you want. Or you can upgrade to am or we're calling the full conference pass.

And that includes all the videos. We have some workshops that are only available to the conference pass holders. We have a, um, a private community where we do additional workshops and training, not only the week of the summit, but throughout the entire year. Um, we've got bonuses from all the speakers and sponsors. So it's, it's really, if you, if you get that prior to the summit starting, so if you hear this at the end of February and register, it's on only $67, it's going to increase in price as time goes. But um, and it's just, it's another opportunity for us to take, um, what we have going on and to continue it between at the conference so that we're not just dishing out stuff that first week of March, but all the way through.

And by the way, the reason we chose the first week in March, March is women's history month. And the last day of the week of the first week of, of March is always international woman's day. So on the eighth we'll have Brooke Warner who is the CEO of, she writes press and she is the author of am right on sisters. And she does a lot of talking about this particular topic, like the, the challenges that females face in the publishing industry and why it's so important to share our stories and why it's so important to band together.

So she's going to be our closing keynote and I am pumped up about that.

Autumn (41m 33s): Great. Yeah. Awesome. I can't wait. So, yeah. Well fantastic. I am so happy that you joined me on here and we've got to talk about those. And I mean I could still think of topics that I think women face just, you know, I don't think we're so good at making sure we toot our own horn and tell people that, you know, like you're a USA today bestselling author. I don't think that was even first in your biography or so. It was kind of buried in there and I think that's typical of us. So, Hey, we all have things to we need to remember about ourselves, but thank you so much for joining us and I really appreciate the time and I count to see you're here.

Some of my listeners, uh, over at the conference and like I said, I will be participating in a panel for tips. So I'm looking forward to seeing something, make sure you use the link that, um, the item's going to send out cause that's a better link. For that's a better link. Alright. Sounds good. Yes, I will have that am posted up there on the show notes. Yes, I think that's right. You did send me one and yes. Disclaimer, we're always honest. I think that is an affiliate link. I want to be able to reward you for sending your community, so make sure you go through her affiliate link.

Well, thank you and I had even forgotten that we got those as speakers, but Hey, that's so cool. Thank you. Alright, well again, I can't wait to see everyone at the conference. I can't wait to see quote unquote see you at the conference. Alexa and thank you again. It's been a blast. Yes. Thank you for tuning in next week. Yes. For we'll be back and we'll have another exciting new episode and hope you will join us. Then

Narrator (43m 22s): if you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 60 – Different Types of Edits & When to Use Each

Did you know there are three different types of edits and editors?

It's true!

And in today's episode, we go into different types of edits, how and WHEN to use each yourself or when hiring an editor.

Plus, a brief foray into costs of editors and a discussion on if you really have to pay that much.

Watch the video on how to find an editor that we mention in the podcast at https://youtu.be/SshSW7jUDlk.

***AND don't forget this week is the LAST for our Patreon February Special Offer!

Join us for as little as $1 a month and receive our soon-to-be-released book Story Idea: A Method to Develop a Book Idea and a chance to win a spot in our premium writing course, the Ultimate Fantasy Writer's Guide!

Check out the offer at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.***

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need in literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self-published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello, I am Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is episode 60 of the amwritingfantasy podcast so I think this one should be a very informative episode for the listeners who are new to writing. We are going to talk about different types of editing available to you and what you should expect to pay for it. I have a few notes on that and for the more experienced writers, we will share our views on which type of editing you need when you are a bit further along in your writing career.

Autumn (1m 7s): And it's so sad. I know a lot of authors are not excited about editing, but I absolutely love editing. So hopefully we get that enthusiasm leak through and not have people go running away going, Oh my God, I hated it. It gets, it's so exciting. I love it. A

Jesper (1m 25s): yeah, but that's good. I don't know quite how I feel about it, so, but they're one of us. Love it.

Autumn (1m 30s): Yeah. I can say wholeheartedly that it's one of my favorite parts of writing cause to really take something that might be rough, might not be rough, and to turn it into something whole and get it ready to be released is just, it's such an exciting time. Yeah.

Jesper (1m 46s): Yeah. So we're gonna get into all of that, but Hey, autumn, I got to tell you at our house to the voice of, I have a been home alone for about six days now. So I think that it's not good.

Autumn (1m 58s): No, I didn't know your wife was away. That's, yeah. So three bachelor is in the house.

Jesper (2m 5s): It's no good. I mean it without my wife in the house, things just gets really unhealthy really fast.

Autumn (2m 13s): Well. So she's the linchpin that keeps everything too.

Jesper (2m 16s): Yeah. Yeah. To the boys. They, they sort of, you know, they do, they're begging eyes and stuff and about unhealthy food and they can we have this and that and then it's like, yeah. Okay. So we've been cooking unhealthy food and a my youngest was a at one of his classmates birthdays parties yesterday. And then uh, when we got back home we turn on the PlayStation and we played FIFA for something like five hours together while we were eating candy and pop. So it's just like, this is no good.

Autumn (2m 45s): This is a side of you I had known existed. I was so shocked. But it sounds like a wonderful bonding experience and it's an amazing segue into what's going to be our next episode. But I'm going to save that for the ending. So it's very fitting

Jesper (3m 0s): for the next topic now that, well that's good. But I, I am happy to say that my wife returned from Finland this evening, so I am really looking for

Autumn (3m 11s): fantastic. Well, I hope you've made her a welcome home banner and tidy the house and everyone is filled on their junk food now.

Jesper (3m 20s): Yeah, well the tie, the house has been tidy than cleaned and I did all the laundry this morning as well, so that's pretty good. And uh, no, I mean the boys and I have been enjoying ourselves, but, uh, I must say I do prefer when she's around it just a. And the funny thing is, I don't know if you, if you feel this as well, but it's really weird. But when she's not in the house, it's not that she has to, you know, lie in the bed next to me, but I just sleep better when she's in the house. I don't know why it's so weird. Maybe it's like 20 years living together that does that to you.

I don't know, but it's just like when she's not in the house, I don't feel, I don't sleep as well.

Autumn (3m 56s): No, I totally agree. And especially it's for me, like if I know Adam's away, I can like tell myself, you know, I'm alone and I get myself to sleep. But if he's having, like if he's sick or he's having a bad night and so he goes and sleeps in another room to not disturb me, it actually disturbs me worse because I wake up and I just, I just feel that absence and I'm like, where are you? Are you okay? What can I do this just like, Oh this is just, it's totally counterintuitive. He leaves so that I don't, you know, he doesn't wake me up and I'm like, no, you left.

You woke me up.

Jesper (4m 28s): Yeah. But it's weird. And and usually I, you know, my, my wife works night shifts so she, she's not sleeping at the same hours as me anyway, but it's just like the fact that I know she's in another room into Houseton just I just sleep better. I don't know.

Autumn (4m 43s): Well it's very, very sweet, which is good cause you and I, we are both very a. We both had very long term commitments to our spouses, so I totally get that. And yeah, it's someone who's been in your life, like you said, 20 years, so of course you're going to be like so fine tuned to like, where are you? You're not here. Yeah. It's weird.

Jesper (5m 3s): Uh, yeah. And I know I've got confirmed that everything goes to shit when she's not around. So we're six days. Yeah, it's way. I mean, one or two days maybe, but this is way too much. Popcorn. Just felt good.

Autumn (5m 16s): I, I never thought it was true, but I know a few other people who have said that they're, they, they see their spouse leaving and they're like, Oh, I've got time. I'm going to finish this. I'm not going to be interrupted. I'm going to get all this stuff done. And for some reason you feel a little bit less directed. I don't know. I ended up really having a harder time focusing, even though I know I actually have more time to work on something. And so again, counterintuitive, I think, Oh, the other person's not here. I'm going to eat oatmeal and I'm going to get all this stuff done. I'm not going to make a big dinner. And I'm like, I'm lonely, I'm going to watch Netflix or it gives a little L.

Oh darn it.

Jesper (5m 56s): What about what you then

Autumn (5m 60s): good? Well you know that we've uh, we actually move this week. So that was kind of the exciting thing. We left are very adorable apartment that I'm thoroughly enjoy it except for the noise and being right on the main street in Brattleboro and we're moving just, I think it's only three or four miles South to a little cabin in the woods. But in between we came running up to Maine to pick up a few things. It's kind of sad when you're like, Oh we just drove 300 miles just to go pick up some stuff. But that is America and the distances here and that's what we needed to do.

So we'll be back down to the cabin and just a couple of days and I cannot wait to get it settled. We have some work to do there cause there's am it's part of the agreement for us renting it as that we are actually fixing it up and adding to it a little bit because we've done that before. We've lived in a year, we've built cabins, we've done all this craziness. So I'm looking forward to getting that done. So hopefully I see the end of February and like it'll be done and will be moved in and the spring, hopefully it'll snow once. We'll have the snow falling through the Pines and the hemlocks and there's a little stream out front by the wood stove and it'll just be heaven.

Until then I foresee a lot of hard work and ah, I'm getting, I don't know if it's older. My joints, I love you still love woodworking but now I do too much construction and uh, my hands flare up a little bit so I'm not looking forward to that. But

Jesper (7m 26s): no, we will get through. Yeah, I kind of a got enough of all of that some years back when when we were moving out of imp apartment that we had to fix it up before we sold it. And I already back then I told my wife, I'm never going to do this again. If we have to wait like two more years before we buy or sell anything in the future, we have to save up to get some builders to do this stuff for us because I'm not going to do it anymore. And if I hate it, Oh, we go on the internet with the amwritingfantasy podcast.

So I want to give people a reminder of what we mentioned on last week's episode because this episode that you're listening to right now is airing on the 17th and that's special offer that we announced last week, ends on the 23rd of February, 2020 that is. So basically this is your last chance. So as a reminder, what we're offering is an ebook of the plotting guide that we are releasing later this year. And not to forget, we're going to draw one lucky winner at random who will win a free seat in our premium braiding costs.

The ultimate fantasy writer's guide.

Autumn (8m 40s): Yes. I am looking forward to seeing who the winner is. And checking all that out and see who joined us on Patreon to the links are in the show notes and yeah, come on over while you can, while we have this special offer, we don't do this this often, so uh, now's a great time to join. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's very rare actually that we doing this sort of thing. So keep in mind that the deadline is on the 23rd and a. yeah, you just need to join us on as, as a or I'm sat there and I want to mention as well what I said last week though, the, the plumbing guide is actually going to be for sale on for nine 99 and you can get in for a $1 here.

So yeah, you do the math on that one. It's kind of worth joining. I do it if I wasn't already like hosting it. So I don't need to, I guess I've been working on the plotting book and so I know what's in it and I, uh, it's, it's a good, good book. It's going to be really great and I think help a lot of authors, which is exciting. Yeah, absolutely. And then I had you, you forwarded something to me that I had to share because ah, yeah, it's just so it's wonderful to get comments. So everyone who ever comments, even on the podcast, whatever you do, even if you're reading this, you know, someone's book comments and reviews are just so wonderful to get.

But we had a comment on one of our earlier videos is before we switched to being podcast based. So this is something that's very, I know it's so old, which is really exciting that someone only just found this YouTube video and they got really exciting and it was one that is am plotting a series before you, right. So this is something that came out summer of 2019 maybe late spring. And so I had nine months ago, but I wanted people to remember.

We do have these YouTube videos that are back there that are before the podcast, so if you're really enjoying these, go check them out. They're a little shorter. We've put a lot of effort into making these and uh, people have commented on them. Things like this, like this video had me florid. I'm used to watching several minutes of mindless chitchat followed by anywhere from zero to two useful pieces of information which I may or may not have already heard. Then here comes miss autumn telling me that all of this really helpful information I've never heard anywhere nor figured out on my own.

She's casually throwing it down so thick and fast that I had to keep replaying segments in the lecture. I have it all written down. You guys are a amazing with a couple of G's, which is awesome. I'm so sorry to see that. Your good faith attempt at creating a YouTube resource for writers didn't take off, which is why we're on the podcast now. You are both very accomplished and have so much value to share. I am so glad you are staying. Even if I met changing focus, focus to the podcast format and I would've been lost without this video and look forward to watching, listening to many more of your offerings as I work on my author dream.

So how is that for making you feel like warm and fuzzy? Yeah, that's so kind. This is so kind and a great reminder that we have some amazing videos that are there. More visual base because that is the format we were working on. So they only stayed as videos. We never transform them into a podcast. I guess we could always revisit them as a podcast there. And there's a wonderful YouTube channel. So if you guys have, you know, 20 minutes you want to spend and you've caught up on all of our 60 episodes Nella podcast go and check out the YouTube channel.

Jesper (12m 18s): Yeah, it actually, to be honest, it happens moderate or it has happened more than once. Um, that, uh, people have posted questions in the amwritingfantasy Facebook group and all I had to do was actually go to the YouTube channel and the link with a video. And post that as a response to the question race because quite often there is a good chance that there will be a video on the channel that actually answers the question that you are having because there's a lot of videos on, there was like three years worth of videos or something.

So at least once a week I think you were over a hundred. Yes. Over a hundred videos. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, there's a good chance you can find something, but uh, of course you don't have to just key it is, I don't mind at all that you keep posting the questions in the Facebook group for you. Just notice sometimes I just reply with the video link and that's it. Fair enough.

Narrator (13m 13s): And on to today's topic.

Jesper (13m 16s): Okay. So editing, editing, editing, editing. And I guess those can be a bit confusing about the confusion about this stuff because there's different types of editing. But yeah, and when you're first starting out, you will, you hear different words being used or for or terms in terms of what editing is. But sometimes tear referring to the same thing can be a bit confusing.

Autumn (13m 43s): And I, I mean I do remember when I was first naive Lee working like I'd done a book and I before I'd become published, you know those early manuscripts that you pretend like you never wrote in are buried somewhere on a hard disk that you don't want to lose what you don't ever really want to find kin either. Um, and I really, I thought editing was maybe just punctuation or I really didn't understand that there were different types of editing in that to do it logically I had to figure out a sequence that worked for me. That is probably why I love editing now because I figured out a sequence that I really think is efficient and shows great results and works.

And I know that editing is not just, you finish writing draft one and then send it to an editor. There's like this whole, I have 10 versions usually between the finished draft one in the sense of the editor. There's a lot in there, right?

Jesper (14m 38s): Yeah. But th but I think there's like a, I don't know how you prefer to do this, but I was sort of thinking that we have, at least in my view here, we have light, we have like three different levels of editing, editing. So we have developmental, we have copy

Autumn (14m 52s): editing and we have proofreading. That's sort of the way I think about it. But I don't know if that aligns with you is I actually wrote down 5:00 AM versions. I don't know. Each one's is slightly different, but some of them sort of overlap. But yeah, so I, you have, you listed three and I actually considered almost five steps to do with an edit before, which is probably why I end up with 10 drafts because I probably do each of them as waves I guess. But I agree. You call yours, you start with the developmental at a I called mine, I call it content edit, but I think we're getting at the same thing, which is looking at your overall story structure.

Yeah. A developmental editing. Um, structural editing. You can also call it that. And so what did you just use? Their content continent is all the same thing. It is all of a sudden. I agree. And I want, I think is interesting is right off the get go there is contention on when you do that developmental edit for me there is a lot of people say you have to let your manuscript sit for at least a month, six months, a year.

And yeah, that's why there's this huge, I again, I've researched editing. This is like we found one of my weird hobbies I guess. I don't literally usually lead into people know how much I like editing probably cause I, I don't have time to edit other people's work. I barely have time on the podcast. That's not really, well they know, I love getting tips on editing because I do think it's fun. Um, but yeah, so most people say, you know, you need to let your manuscript even need to finish it and let it sit so you can come back with a fresh pair of eyes.

And while I don't disagree to me, you finish your last page and you know now how your book ends, which is an incredibly important piece of information when you haven't looked at your beginning for a few months, six months, a year, depending on how fast you write. And to me, to me, I like to whip out a sheet of paper and I have a um, a methodology I do when I do a content edit the first time and I do the fastest read through in the world and take notes on point of view characters, the major themes that happen, all of these notes that I then put down.

And I even little ones that say, Ooh, rough needs work, needs refinement. I write down the subplots, I write all of this information down on my content. Edits so that, um, after this first read through and by knowing how it ends, I get to compare it to the beginning and see if it makes sense. Or if I look at it going, it ain't the same book something happened in there. If there's some weird kink that I've got a smooth out or it's not gonna work out. I think that's just an incredibly important thing to do.

So I tell people you don't have to wait on your content edit, just go for it. Yeah, that's, that's interesting because

Jesper (17m 51s): and I think that's actually a good thing that we are coming at it from slightly two different angles because you edit as well. So in that sense you are an editor and are therefore you're looking at what do I do when I do this type of editing, where I'm coming from it from the angle of I'm hiring an editor to do this stuff, so what am I going to get when I hire somebody to do developmental editing for me. Exactly. Which is interesting because it's, it's, it's the same thing but it's two different perspective on it.

It is. And as again, some people, especially if you're new, you might not be able to figure this out until you've had someone you know, shepherd you through it a couple times. Or maybe you have the time and the resources that you can say, I am not learning how to do this. And you send it to a content editor, you trust all the time, which yeah, more power to you if you do. But I, I love being hands on and doing it myself. Yeah, absolutely. A but sometimes, I mean, especially when you're starting out, you need help from other people to other professionals who knows what they're doing and at least the developmental editing stage that's, so this has nothing at all to do with grammar and word choice or anything like that.

That's not what you're going to get here. Uh, if you're purchasing some, uh, developmental editing from an editor, they only focus on story level here. So this is like the big picture. So you should expect to get feedback on everything from how the story is structured. Uh, continuity issues, maybe problems with your pacing. They could give you advice on the characters that you're using. Yeah. And the arcs and so on, so on. So yes.

Basically the point is just to ensure at this stage that your novel will become a, let's call it good read, for lack of a better word, a before you actually spend a lot of time on fixing grammar and all that other stuff. So that, that'll be totally time waste if the editor ends up telling you, you know, chapter four to six is, is sort of derailing the entire thing. You need to rewrite those or do something differently or whatever. Right. And you will be glad you didn't spend a lot of time doing grammar stuff on chapter four to six.

That's just going to waste a lot of your time. Um, yes. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Yeah. Is this a I think I like to put it that am you don't know if the words that you would be proofreading to fix the punctuation and the word choice or the spelling or even the words that are gonna make it to the final novel. So this is why you don't start with that. This is a content edit. So even just work out the, okay, so I'm building a am working on a building a cabin. So this is making sure that the foundation, the structure, the, you know, the roof is going to be supported at all is laid out, the bones of it are truly solid.

You need to figure that out before you worry about what color you're gonna paint the interior. Yeah. So we can call, we can talk about the cost towards the MTA, uh, for each of the types of editing. But I, I guess the quite unfortunate part here is that this developmental editing, if you are, if, if you're looking at it from the angle of hiring an editor, like I am not talking about doing it yourself, then a the unfortunate part about this is that this is usually something that the beginning writer needs and it is also the most time consuming and therefore also the most expensive type of editing.

So that's a bit, it's a bit sad that that's the way it is. So when you're first starting out and you have no money for it, then that's, that's where you have to buy the most expensive type of editing. But uh, yeah, I don't know, but that's just what it is.

Autumn (21m 31s): It is. And I mean, I know some people would get, try to get by with beta readers or alpha readers or a really good author friend who's more of a mentor. So there are other avenues, but definitely almost every first time writer new writers really need to do a content and it helps someone, you have someone help them through a content edit. It would be it really unusual for you to have right of first novel with all on your own and it's perfect and doesn't have any problems are structural plot, plot problems or characters, Oh, sorry, just being truthful.

But it's possible. You might be that 1000000th percentile. I can do it, but I definitely think this one's worth getting done. But it is huge and time consuming. And you can work with someone for months, if not years to make your novel perfect or at least it's perfect. It's going to get. So yeah, it's as you know, as best as it's going to get. And don't spend years on your novel. Please probably not unless, unless you're really young and you have a lot of learning to do and you're really a perfectionist, but hopefully it won't take that long.

But this is definitely one of the most expensive edits you can hire someone to do.

Jesper (22m 48s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if we climb up the editing ladder than my next entry is copy editing, I don't know what yours are. You have five. So yeah, I

Autumn (22m 57s): do after my con, my read through. So I kind of continued or an initial read through where you do all of this outlining and get all this stuff together and then it's going back through in the chapters you like needs to be fixed or subplot loss, fixing all those problems. So that's still part of the content edit. I have like a read through and then content edit. So those are two parts of this whole. So my next one is, uh, the grammar and punctuation, punctuation. So yes, a copy edit. So I agree. This is after you got to the point where you feel like all the chapters, all the pacing's, right.

The characters are right. The words of you know, been smoothed out. Now you need to work on word choice as well as some grammar and punctuation. You getting that smoothness, that starting to look like English. Yeah.

Jesper (23m 47s): Starting to get that nice sheen to it. Yeah. Some also call this stuff line editing and again, in my book is the same thing. Um, but uh, I dunno, some might argue otherwise, but I, I in my view a copy editing and line editing is the same thing. Um, so the editor will review your manuscript and the am Oh yeah. First draft, whatever you want to call it. A but you know, once you're done with the novel and you feel like this is the best that I can make it on my own, you probably have done several self-editing passes on it already.

Um, then they will stop fixing spelling, grammar, punctuation errors, uh, and, and those sorts of thing. Um, and why I'm saying the copy editing and line editing isn't the same thing. If you want to separate these two, then I would say copy editing. We'll only focusing, focusing on grammar while line editing becomes a more like deep dive into meaning the meaning of each sentence and your word choices and stuff like that.

But so, so those who argue that it's two different things, that's what they will tell you, that that's the difference between copy editing and line editing. But to me they're, the dude does this in one one pass. So, and usually when we get editing done on our books as well, our editors will both fix grammar and punctuation errors, but they will also tell or make suggestions to us with comments about, Hey, you know, maybe you reuse this word or you used this word three times on this page, or would it make more sense? You use this word instead?

Because I think it clarifies better what your meaning and that, that sort of thing. Right. So that's to me, you get that in one go, but a some will argue differently, but yeah, so be it. Yeah. And I think most good, uh, editors, at least the ones I use, we'll actually try to do two passes. So they'll do what? They'll do a second one and sometimes they'll do it a computer aided one, which is obviously an option. And then they tried to do a, you know, a red one, a personal one so that they can get it in.

A good editor will, if they see a sentence that does not make sense, they will flag it. They'll say, I'm not sure what you mean here. This doesn't sound clear. A good editor will also say, are you sure you met this character? Cause I know I've done that. Sometimes you have a character in your head and you type the wrong name or your pronoun choice was incorrect. So that's, that's always something that hopefully you have enough to just say that he, his eyes was blue in the previous chapter and now the ground, Oh if you have an editor who's that good, keep them forever, send them candy, whatever it is, they need to keep them happy.

And I would say this one, I call this, I have a two to three level on this one. So I mean I had to fix the problems from the content edit and then I have going through each of the chapters so that the ones I say sounds rough, you know, smoothing them out so that the words sound a little bit better. Then I go through, I do what I think

Autumn (26m 44s): is a good grammar punctuation, like a good line edit, everything should kind of fill up and I often find myself going, Oh wait, did this happen? And you know, checking things. But then my final, final pass when I'm doing my line editing is I actually started at the end of the novel and work to the front. And I do that by paragraph, not by sentence because I'm not that cruel to myself, but I do know some people who do it by sentence. And literally starting with the last page, looking at the last paragraph, I read it and I started going backwards because this is a fantastic way of seeing your punctuation really clearer, seeing your word choice and Oh yes.

By the way. I'm also keeping a list of times when I like see that I have favorite words. I've used way too many times in the novel or things I've consistently misspelled. I'm keeping a side list so that when I'm done I can also do a search find and go and look for any of those other ones I've messed up. Like I said, I am anal with my head. I admit it. That's what an edits I need to be. You have to be very, very focused on the details and and very perfectionist kind of way, you know? Because otherwise they edit this. No good.

Yes, and that's, I mean, and I still pay for an editor on top of doing all this on my own, so this is just, my past doesn't always feel devastated. How many errors they still find in my own rating after I've done all these 10 drafts of passes, but it goes to show, I've done 10 drafts of passes and I'm anal to the core and I'm running Grammarly and I'm running such search and find and replace and I'm still missing things. It's amazing what you miss. You always need to have someone else look over your stuff.

Yeah, that's the thing, right? I mean especially like if we're talking fantasy novels, so we have like a 100,000 words that's like 400 pages and you just get, you get blind to it because once you've been over 10 times, you start to seeing the what your mind wants you to see and not what it actually says on the page. And I think why shifting to another person helping you to take a look that they'll catch the stuff but and when they do you a and you get it back with track changes you will like how could I miss that? And that's to be the beauty of reading it backwards.

As you cannot get caught up in your own storytelling, you have to look at just those words. And some people reading it out loud works well, changing the font or the font size works well. But for me, I just like reading it backwards. It works pretty seamlessly. And my husband, husband and I are both a sound sensitive. So a even we don't watch many videos because we don't like noise and we still are. We have it on mute. A so am not gonna sit there and read 105,000 words out loud, especially backwards kill me.

It's going to take two months. I read much faster. But yeah, so that's the idea is you don't want to be caught up in your own writing because Oh it happens. You start falling in love with the romance scene. Are you the climax getting exciting and you don't pay attention to your word choice again. So it's very important to find a way of breaking that. And I have to say it's really helpful that when you send it to your editor and you correct the changes that they come back with two then if you have time and you're not really so anxious to publish it, letting it sit for two weeks and then reading through the whole thing one last time is, is also amazing.

What you'll find that you want to tweak and what maybe they didn't see to recommend on word choice and how many times do you use the same word? So yeah, there's, Oh, you can keep going on edits at some point you just have to say it's done. It's what I've, I try not to read. I try not to critically read something else I've written and have edited because I know I'll start tweaking things. It can. Yeah,

Jesper (30m 30s): absolutely. So the final States on my ladder is than the proofreading. Yup. Uh, so this is the lightest form of editing and also the least expensive of the mall. Uh, and this is exactly what it sounds like. So this is just the editor will go over the manuscript and fix any spelling, grammar and punctuation errors. And then you might say, but wait a minute, wasn't this what you just explained as being the copy edit and Hey, thank you for paying attention.

That's what that was exactly what I was saying. But where the, where the differences though is that with the copy edit, we also just talked about how the editor that will give you suggestions on the words that you use or the meaning of the sentences and, and do give you some sort of feedback on that sort of thing and where they might suggest you do some changes. Whereas the proofreader will typically not do that. They will just go through the manuscript, they will just fix errors and that's it. A so you're not gonna get any copy, edit type of feedback as well.

So that's the difference between copy editing and proofreading.

Autumn (31m 37s): Yes. It's a much lighter one. You might not get the noticing the pronoun choices or the questions of like, are you sure you meant this character here? Uh, those more personal touches and kind of like, Oh, you've been paying attention to what I've been writing or not. There it is literally like someone going use misspelled this. You missed an in, you should have a period or a semi-colon here. And

Jesper (32m 0s): that's about it. Yeah, exactly. So do you have more on your editing?

Autumn (32m 6s): No, but that's like, like I said, I've, I've pretty much after I've done mine, I've sent it to the editor and when I get it back, I'll do the accept and reject changes, which sometimes I do reject changes and if I can, I try to set it aside and then I do probably something that comes up more as the light proofread, looking for any last changes in last mistakes that maybe the editor or I have missed. And sometimes I have to say if you have some good beta readers or some really trusted friends, it's after done, send it to the editor, maybe I'll send it to them, which will give me maybe another month, uh, before I see what they have to say except, and reject their changes in, have my final run through as well.

So yeah, you're probably a 10 to 15 versions in my camp at this point.

Jesper (32m 57s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but that's how it is, right? I mean I think there is a good point in what you just said around approving and declining changes because just because the edits assessed that they want you to change something doesn't necessarily mean that you have to do it. Um, you can reject changes and just say no. What I wrote was what I meant and that's what I wanted to say and that's okay. But I would just say as well that you're paying a professional person to do this work and they do this work all the time.

So try to, you know, if you are rejecting some changes, I would say be damn sure that this is really what you want to do. I mean, I would say you should probably like, except like 95% of the changes they want to do because they're probably right. Yeah. So it's only like on of the few ones where you 100% certain like, Nope, this is exactly what I want it to say and then stick with it. If that's the case. But a don't be too much like double, you know, or questioning, I should rather say questioning what the editors sending back to you because they know what they're doing.

At least if you've got a good editor. Right. So

Autumn (34m 7s): yes, and I would say yeah and definitely. And there are, if you've done a good job and selected the correct editor, you should have a good trust and he should really at least look at their, what they've suggested. And if you don't understand or you disagree, you should be able to open a dialogue and say, by the way, I was just, I don't agree with this. Or could you explain this a little bit more? But I definitely know like when I was starting out, maybe I had some editors that I thought had come recommended and I know I had one that changed all my goddesses to God, singular plural capital.

And that was a nightmare when I realized that. And I have to say that I never sent her a fantasy one again because it just was like, wow, okay. So from now on, I'm going to check religions and let people know up fronts, um, about the content so that I do not have such weird things happening. And I've had another editor who gave me a fence Hastick of few pages of an example. Edits I loved it, went with him and he ended up the manuscript he gave me back, I think it had, I can't remember how many changes it was, outrageous number of changes and he had gone through and changed all of my action tags and dialogue to dialogue tags.

So it would be like growled, grumbled said instead of picking up a glass or something and I was trying to fix it and I finally just kind of broke down in tears and my husband's like, just tell him you want your money back. There's no way you will ever feel that he didn't, that you didn't miss something that he changed and I had an agree with them. I was devastated. So there are some issues with editors and make sure you do your, like I said, I thought I did due diligence on that one.

I still secretly think he subleased out his editing to someone, a third party because it was such a big change. So I don't want to get people scared, but editing is expensive and there are definitely steps to find a good editor. And one of the best ones is to talk to author friends and say, who do you use and do you like them? Who do you recommend?

Jesper (36m 13s): Yeah, that actually reminds me of what actually what we just said before as well. Because if you go onto the amwritingfantasy YouTube channel, there is actually a video there where I'm talking you through like how do you find an editor? And I'm basically because in my, uh, in in G D day job land, I have hired a lot of contractors over the years and basically you need it. It's sort of the same thing here you are hiring a contractor, so you're buying a service and the editor is selling you a service.

So you need to approach this in the same way as you would if you're hiring a contractor to do something else and you need to vet out who are the good ones. And who are the bad ones. And obviously you want to end up with a good one. So if you will put a link to that video in the show notes so you can go straight from there and check it out if you're interested. But actually we'll talk you through the steps that you need to go through to find a good editor. And I can promise you if you do what I'd say in that video, there is a very, very high likelihood, it's not a guarantee, but there's a very high likelihood that a that you will end up with a good editor.

And editing is not like a protected title. You know, everybody can open a website and call themselves an editor and sell their services. Yes. Yeah. And that's the problem we are facing here. So they can charge you quite a lot of money to do something and then what you're getting back, especially if you're new to writing, you won't be able to sort of see or tell that something is off. So you might take their word for gospel and then they had you down a completely wrong path. So that's the danger. But uh, yeah, check that video out, the link in the show notes if you are interested in that.

Sounds good. Okay. So we were gonna talk about pricing before we wrap up. Yes. I think that's a good point. Let's get to that.

Autumn (37m 59s): Just so people have an idea of expectations because I think some of the problems are a maybe going for a low end one, not going in wanting to save money, which I totally understand. And maybe getting someone who doesn't quite know what they're doing and then you end up paying for something that you end up having to maybe pay again or you lose sales or you get bad reviews. And that's a really high cost of itself. So you should go into this knowing that there is a cost. You're paying for a professional and you want to be paying a professional to do this.

Not am your aunts, cousins, best friend. Absolutely not. No, no. I'm going to be a good professional editor,

Jesper (38m 36s): but no, but these are professional people, right? So, so of course you are put paying for a professional piece of work. Uh, it's this, this is not where you want to skimp on, on money, right? I mean the and the same, we're going to say this again over and over again in the self publishing success costs for later this year. But when I'm talking about covers and that course, I, I keep saying the same thing. You know, this is not where you're going to save your money. No. So I was trying to find some, I, I searched quite a lot on the internet earlier today to see if I can find some industry standard rates for reference points, but I wasn't quite able to.

So what I can do here is at least from my end, I can sort of give you what I believe should be around the rate that you should be paying for the different types of editing a but of course, this is based on my own sort of point of view and experience. So you can also correct me or challenge me autumn if you think that I'm off on some of this, but, uh, but at least this is how I see it. Um, at least it gives you people a bit of a pointer on what they can expect. Absolutely nothing else. And I've definitely, like you said, I've done this in the past for other people.

I've been an editor so

Autumn (39m 48s): I can tell you if I think it's falling in the rates I find or remember as being about the going rate. Um, but yeah, it's been a couple of years now.

Jesper (39m 57s): Okay. So I have three stages here. Like we talked about developmental editing, copy editing and proofreading and a. I've tried to put some pricing together for each of those three stages to see what you can expect and we can, we can just circle back afterwards a bit to the more experienced author and on what, what you need because you might skip some of this stuff, but at least if we assume for now that you're going to go through all three stages of editing here, then you start with the developmental editor we talked about before.

And I would say you can probably expect to pay something like $6 per page. And normally you would say that, uh, there is 250 words on a page, so that if we calculate that, that means that if you have 100,000 word fantasy novel, which is quite common, that gives you 400 pages to edit. So at $6 per page, that's $2,400 for their development.

Autumn (40m 55s): Yeah. And I honestly think that is a pretty good average price, but also possibly on the low end, a really in depth, someone who might work with you to really talk about the character development, character arts. You could be paying for a fantasy novel up to five to 6,000.

Jesper (41m 14s): Yeah, I mean, OK. So, so these are like a great. Yeah, I think we can expect around, but you can go on all of these. I would say you can go out a lot more expensive. I mean the best, the best editors out there, they have so many clients that they can charge a premium, but they also extremely good at what they do. So you get what you pay for here.

Autumn (41m 35s): Definitely. But I would say 24 to me, that's actually not even that the middle, it's kind of a low end average. Three to three to four is probably average to me for something as long as a fantasy. And if you're talking series now, let's just start with book one. Yeah.

Jesper (41m 54s): So as you're going to hear that this is the most expensive type of editing, and unfortunately as we said before, this is what you need when you're first starting out. So that's a bit of a shame. But yeah, that that's it. A it,

Autumn (42m 7s): the improvements you'll see are amazing. So once I can pull all your friends and family and have them for one year, this is your birthday present. Go for it.

Jesper (42m 20s): Yeah. So the next day it's then copy editing and here I would say, then we go down from the $6 per page to probably land $4 per paid at 400 pages. That gives you $1,600 for a copy edit.

Autumn (42m 33s): No, I think that's a very, very fair, very honest average. It could be I think as low as 1200 as high as 24 but that's, yeah, that's a good average. Yeah,

Jesper (42m 45s): and proofreading is after that, then it gets even cheaper. You can probably get that for $3 prepaid. So that's a total of $1,200 for 100,000 fans. A word fantasy she novel, but I would also say it, it depends on what you can find because we are with our proofreaders for example, that we use for our novels, we are paying like $300 for a proofread. So it certainly does not have to cost 1200 at all. But I think if, if we just go like on random checks with Reedsy, for example, if you go on Richie with just like a website that has a lot of editors that you can hire, I think you should expect probably like $1,200 for a a proofread.

But it can be a lot cheaper than that as well. But again, you need to be careful here because especially with proofreading, some people charge a very minimal fee for it, but what you get is also a pretty bad, so you need to be careful.

Autumn (43m 44s): I agree. And yeah, I mean, I've seen very, very cheap and sometimes they're amazing. I, I, I have a few beta readers who refuse to get paid and they're wonderful editors and I love him to death, find them, keep them, love them always. But yeah, then even still going through an editor, I mean, you can get away with three, 600 a 900 somewhere in there. It's definitely the lesser end, but it's also not someone who's going to really, they're going to fix some stuff, but they're not going to make it shine that if you don't know how to make it shine on your own, you might still feel like you're missing something if you just do a proofread.

Yeah.

Jesper (44m 23s): Okay. So you can see that that at least gives you something like to go through all the stages and you are up to like five, $7,000 maybe. Something like that. Yeah. It's not cheap. No. Well, but it's, it's the cost of, of, uh, of putting out a professional piece of work, which, which you have to do. Uh, but on the other hand, I would say don't get like disheartened by the cost of editing because in the grand scheme of things, if you're, if you're looking at all authorship as a business, you know, this is your biggest expense.

And compared to other types of businesses, I mean together with the cover of course, that that will be slightly expensive as well. But compared to other types of business, this is not a lot of money to run a company on, you know, four or five, $6,000. If you tell them what other industries that this is your cost base, they will happily take that, you know, 50 grand just to get started, right? Where we can do it for five. So it's, it's not too bad. But I do expect an understand of course, that for some people it is a lot of money and then you just have to save for it.

But what I don't want to give us the advisers that a have you ever heard the, the, the, the term saying minimal viable product. Have you heard that before? I have heard that before in terms of marketing. So basically the idea is that you, you, you do it as well as you can and then you publish it and then of course you're going to get complaints and then you read the complaints and then you start updating based on that. So, and then once you've sold enough and you have money for it and edit it and you hire an editor and you make them do a proofread for example.

But honestly this is just hurting your brand badly. So I don't do that.

Autumn (46m 11s): Oh yeah. I don't want to say unless you're like doing it under a pen name and you plan on killing off that author pen names so that you don't care about the repetition. That's, yeah. I wouldn't recommend it as the best way of building an author career. You go into it and like we mentioned circling back around as you get better hope maybe you can get out the co, you know, drop the content edit or maybe you can find a beta reader who's going to be your proofreader. And really all you're doing is that middle level, about 1600 or maybe you'll find someone who'll do it for 12 I mean I've been with my current editor for like five or six books and at that point we're pretty much like, Hey, you're going to do this for me.

Hey, yeah, I'll do it for that. Oh Hey, thanks. Cause I'm a repeat customer at this point. You know, he's making money off of me because he knows I'll be back again and again and again. So you know, I'm at a rate that I'm sure he's up to his rates for other people, but I'm still at the low rate from five years ago.

Jesper (47m 8s): Yeah. Well, but I, and I think maybe maybe to finish off, you know, for the more experienced, right. A it probably goes without saying. I mean, if we can use ourselves as an example, right? We do not do developmental editing, we don't pay anybody from it, uh, for, for developmental editing. But of course we do ping pong, ping pong back and forth between ourselves in terms of making sure that there is consistency in the manuscript and and and all the steps of the story makes sense. And the character arcs and all that we do, we do that between us.

So once you've written enough novels, you don't need the development that edit any way, you will know where the problems are and you will know how you probably even to fix them yourself. So, so that part you can skip once you get a bit further ahead. And then what we do, at least on our end is that we, once autumn have done all her editing, which of course we have the benefit of autumn knows what she's doing and that's a bit of it. Um, but once she's done with all her editing, then we send it off to a copy edit.

So the first editor that gets it, we'll then do both the proof reading, but also give us feedback on words and sentences and all the stuff we talked about and does episode. Um, and then we get it back from there. Then autumn will accept and decline that changes. But then we actually send it to a second editor. But this is only a proofread then in the last stage, uh, so that we make sure that we use two different editors on all our books because as we talked about before, you get blind after even editors get blind on the words.

So giving it to another editor at the last States and, and th this last days is not expensive. We probably pay like $300 for that last step. So it's not too bad. No. Um, so by then, autumn have been through a manuscript like 15 times and we've had to edit those going through it. And I have to tell you that there are still errors in it. It's just impossible to avoid it. And we just, I mean, I, I keep a side list.

Autumn (49m 7s): If I hear back from someone who's like, points it out and I don't immediately change everything. As soon as someone tells me about it, I keep a list and I tried to once or twice a year do an update and fix everything at once because otherwise you're, you're getting, you know, you're fixing something twice, one month and once the next month it'll drive you crazy. But yeah, I usually go through these books enough that I have them memorize. People ask me like years later, Oh, I can't believe you remember that seat. It's like, are you kidding? I can recite this in my sleep.

Yes, absolutely. And a and then we move on to the next book and zoom. We forgotten all about it. So that's how life works. And maybe the lights off. Oh no, I still remember it. Well, I think if I had to go back and redo like book one or something, I think I would have to read up on it.

Jesper (49m 54s): I don't remember most of it, but I don't remember the details. Yeah, you're probably right. Yeah. So autumn. If I get some outro music going here, you will have about 10 seconds to tell the listener about next Monday's episode. So up I'm up. Let's race. All right, so next week on episode 61 I have a special guest, Alexa, big Wharf, organizer of the women had publishing summit, and we're going to talk about some issues facing women writers.

Narrator (50m 25s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe, safe out there and see you next Monday.

The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 59 – How to Dictate Your Book

Dictation and how to use it for writing is a topic that has come up on multiple past episodes, so Autumn and Jesper decided to make it into a full length episode.

In episode 59 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, you'll learn what benefits there are in using dictation.

What equipment you need. And how to go about the actual dictation; especially how to handle all the fantasy names.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.

SPECIAL GIVEAWAY

And here's the link to the special giveaway: www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

Everyone who signs up to support the Am Writing Fantasy podcast before the 23rd of February 2020, will get the chance to win a free writing course.

The Ultimate Fantasy Writers guide will teach you everything you need to know about writing a fantasy novel.

Here are links to what Jesper use for dictation:

Handheld recorder: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-WS-852-Digital-Voice-Recorder-Silver-Large-LCD-Screen-and-Speaker/333224752740?epid=2255359847&hash=item4d95be3664:g:9b4AAOSwNmxZuB3z

Headset: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Andrea-NC-185VM-Black-Headband-Headset/183446856673?epid=129519208&hash=item2ab648e3e1:g:lIMAAOSwI~Bbn-wv

Mini fur to block out wind noise: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NMUUIRK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_jik-ybTJQM13A

Dragon Natural Speaking software: https://www.nuance.com/dragon/business-solutions/dragon-professional-individual.html

SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST!

Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review.

Join us at www.patreon.com/AmWritingFantasy.

For as little as a dollar a month, you’ll get awesome rewards and keep the Am Writing Fantasy podcast going.

Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion). 

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need in literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self-published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s): Hello. I am Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is episode 59 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and we have a topic that came up over and over and over again in past episodes. That is dictation. Um, I think it has come up as side comments more often than, well, I dunno just about anything else on past episodes. So we thought we better turn it into a full episode and that is how to use dictation for your.

Writing was there a knee better medium than a podcast to talk about dictating your novel? I think this is perfect. Yeah, it's, it ties in pretty well, doesn't it? I think so. It's like we planned this or something.

Autumn (1m 17s): Uh, I, I, I feel like it's fate that plan itself because I mean, I, I honestly, I was trying to think earlier today how many times the dictation has been both these sort of side comments in the past and it's just, I don't know. But it's been a lot of times. Yeah. I mean, I think I could name three or four off the top of my head, so that's, that is quite a lot actually. It's at least on our minds. I'm not sure about our listeners, but we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I think this will, this is going to end up being quite an interesting conversation because a well, I use, Oh, I do dictation myself.

And and I know autumn you've sort of tried it a bit, but I also feel like you might not be the biggest fan of it. Yeah. I think we'll have a nice wide perspective of our thoughts on dictation. Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. I liked a, but first of all a I wanted to, so I want to hear just how, how, how have you weeping autumn Oh, it's been good. Good. My parents came up to Vermont, which is always am. So that's where I'm staying right now.

And it's a seven and a half hour drive. So of course I'm like so nervous parents on the road that long. They're getting a little older, which always when you see them in person, you see that, you see the truth of that no matter how many times did you face time someone did I do that in one stretch. They are hardcore travelers. When I was a teenager and we drove from the East coast to the West coast and back on a two week trip. Um, so you know, so that's where you get to 7,000 miles.

Yeah, my wandering ways are very legit. It was great to have them come up and it was, it's been a long, long, long time since am. I've hosted them actually in a place I was living, um, probably almost a decade. So it's been a long time. I've stayed with them, but actually have them here and be, the host was very different and it's, it's not a huge apartment. It's a two bedroom with one bath. So it was a lot of thank goodness her family all right.

Put up and stuff. But it was great having the up and showing him around the Brattleboro in the town. So I thought it was great having some family time. How was it?

Jesper (3m 31s): That's good. Um, it's been good in general, but I think as well that we've had a bit of a, what seems like a streak of bad luck when it comes to injuries. And yeah. On the, on the previous podcast episode, I shared how I hurt my wrist above that amount is better. Yeah. It's, it's, it's still not 100%. Okay. But it's pretty good now it's minus stuff. But then last Monday, uh, we came back home from soccer practice and, uh, my youngest son started complaining that he's a his knee was hurting.

Oh, no. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, that's, that's not good, you know, try and, you know, sit on the couch and relax for a bit and stuff like that. Right. Whatever else you think to do. And then a couple of hours went by and um, and it was still sort of just hurting. So he went to bed in the evening and then the next day when he, uh, got up in the morning, he just couldn't walk. Oh no. Yeah. So it was, it was really bad. So we start off okay. We a so he of course did not go to school because you could not walk anywhere.

So a we took him to the doctor and a so I'm going to try this out. So he said it was a sprained cruciate ligament.

Autumn (4m 55s): I hope that's how you pronounce it. Pretty close. I actually, we had a dog who sprained his crew. She, uh, you didn't see, I'm not gonna pronounce it either, but ligament as well. So that's not a, that's a long injury to heal from.

Jesper (5m 8s): Yeah, I Googled that translation by the way, cause I have no idea what it was called in English, but uh, but yeah, I mean the, so the doctor said that he should just rest, um, would see then did last week and it probably took like, I dunno, five days or something. Then the pain was gone. So he does not have any pain anymore and he can walk around completely normal. Um, but the doctor told us last week, so this week meeting the week after the pain has gone, he still needs to take it easy because otherwise it can come back.

So he's not allowed to play soccer practice this weekend. I can tell you that somebody is not very happy about that. Uh, but in general, you know, just trying to get him to take it easy to do. It's just imagine how easy that is to tell the young boy that you can't run around

Autumn (5m 58s): too much and peace, you know, settled out. It's just, it's not easy. At least he understands English tricep telling that to a small current terrier. Who? Liz. Very feisty. So, Oh yeah. You might be able to reason with your kid. Especially I know how passionate he is about soccer, so yeah, he loves it. Yeah. Maybe I know it's going to great him, but it's like never play again or just don't play this week now. Maybe never again. It's a bit too far, but, but I did tell him today, you know that well, the reason that you can't go to soccer it is because if you go to soccer then it might get worse and then it's going to end up taking even longer before I can get back to playing a so you, you're sacrificing one week so that you can pick it back quickly.

Uh, he seemed to accept that though. Excellent. I can't be reasoned with at least try to sit there and pop them, pop some balls off of his head or something. Maybe just he's not a dark, you know, that's my experience. I only know dogs. Yeah, that's what I meant. Oh, we go on the internet with the amwritingfantasy.

Podcast okay. So today we have something really special to announce. So if you are listening to this episode on the day that it releases and that will be the 10th of February, 2020, then yesterday on the 9th of February, we opened a very special reward. Don't do you want to tell what it is? Autumn what do you want me to, Oh, do you go ahead. I just can't drink of tea anyway.

So, okay. So basically what we're going to do is that we are going to offer one free seat in our premium writing cost, the ultimate fantasy writers guide. I'm so excited about this because I love new students and I know how much someone loves getting a spot in this course, especially for free. So I think this is a really big giveaway. Yeah. So this is a, uh, wow. Remind me again autumn what is it, six $700 normally for the seat and the cost, right?

Oh, $600 yes. Five 97 yeah. 97. Yeah. So you give away, you get five, five 97 for free. Um, by basically what we, what you need to do is that you need to sign up to become a patron supporter. So everybody who signs up to become a patron supporter between the 9th of February, 2020 and the 23rd of February, 2020 day, we'll get their name in the pot and we will draw one random winner at am, uh, to

Jesper (8m 56s): win this receipt of the ultimate fantasy writers guide course. Yes. And good.

Autumn (9m 3s): This is not just writing. I think we should tell it. Let people know about that. It's not just like how to write, but it's just about to ask you if you could explain what this entails. Let's see. I was just somehow reading your mind from how many thousands. So we should look up, we should Google. We are from each other. That'd be hilarious. But yes, so it's six modules on how to write, how to develop an idea to write the beginning, the middle, the end to make sure you, you really develop and create a good story as well as character and world-building cause it is geared towards fantasy writers and then there are modules on how to grow your fans, how to do marketing and outreach, how to do editing and then even one on formatting and covers and all those things you need to know for publishing.

And then I'm going to final one module on how to grow your author platform and you know, become more professional and not just, you know, if you really want to become a full time author or even just make this more of a business model, it's you know, how to grow your platform that way as well. So it's 12 modules and like I said, it covers everything from, I have this idea too, I have several books under my belt and this is my brand, so it's really cool. I love it's a one stop shop on how to write.

Jesper (10m 21s): Yup, absolutely. So everybody who becomes a patron within between this eight 9th of February, sorry, and the 23rd of February, I will get their name in the pot as I said. And you might end up the lack of winter, but there's actually more than that because every single one who signs up during this timeframe, we'll also get a copy of the ebook copy of our upcoming guidebook on how to plot a novel. So whether you win the seat in the guy costs or not, you will, no matter what, get that ebook of the plotting book as soon as it comes out is scheduled to come out a bit later this year.

But you will get it as soon as it comes out. So you are guaranteed to win something.

Autumn (11m 6s): Yeah. Which we like I everyone should get something to take home with them. Yeah.

Jesper (11m 12s): And of course all the normal rewards that we are offering over on Patrion is applicable as well too. Of course going to get all of those as well. Once you sign up, you can see those on the patron pays itself. Those are link in the show notes. Um, and I, I guess I should also point out that once we do release this a guide on how to plot a novel, we're going to charge nine 99 for it so you can get into Patrion and this special reward for $1. So it's sort of a no brainer really.

Autumn (11m 43s): It's worth it for to sign up and yeah, you'll get some great stuff. Not to mention, I mean we've been doing posts and stuff on there for what a year now and it's, there's a lot of information just to read through. If you went back to the beginning and started there.

Jesper (12m 2s): Oh yeah, there was a lot of information in there and a also at the $5 tier you get access to the monthly a Q and a sessions. Uh, so those are also in there, those recordings for you of all the past Q and A's that you can listen to as well. That's true. That, that's some good stuff. Yeah. Um, and I guess also very important too to note is that a by joining on Patrion, you're also helping to ensure that uh, autumn and I will keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. So there is that as well,

Autumn (12m 34s): which is very important to knowing you, I hope. But to us it lets us know how much you appreciate what we're doing.

Jesper (12m 42s): Yeah, absolutely. So as I said, there's a link in the show notes, so just go and check that one out and see if you want to support us there. Uh, and to remember the offer disappears on the 23rd of February. So we're going to talk about dictation. Autumn.

Autumn (13m 4s): Yes, we are. We're going to talk about dictation. That's really actually cut. My dad would appreciate that. Thank you. What about talking, talk about talking about, yeah, long talking, writing talking. So I don't know, before we get into all of this stuff around dictate should we just start out maybe by what is our own experience with dictation

Jesper (13m 24s): then what have we used it for and why before we talk about any, well, all the advice stuff I guess,

Autumn (13m 31s): I guess, I mean some of mine will come up with am the pros and cons is I saw it, but I can try to keep, save those for the end. And I will just say the, the cold facts of what I've done with dictation and maybe why I tried to do it. But it's up to you do, you've been doing this longer than I have and I don't know if you want to start with why you picked up dictation and what your, what you think of it so far.

Jesper (13m 59s): Yeah. Uh, so at, well there's a bit of story attached to that actually because, um, I don't quite remember when it was exactly. It's pro, it's probably a year ago, maybe more to be honest. A I'm not quite sure, but I had one day where, uh, well I woke up in the morning and then my index finger was completely stiff, so, and it took like, you know, like I went to the showers and all that, brush my teeth and so forth.

Then I started to move it a BA being able to move it again and uh, and it, it happened for a while. Like that, you know, every morning I woke up, I would have a stiff finger and I was thinking like, Oh, this is not good. Right. I mean, if you want to earn a living as a writer, then it's not good that you are, you're not able to, right. No time for you. Yeah. So, so I was a bit concerned, uh, not, not that all of a sudden like that out of the blue, that a I would have issues with my fingers just like that all. But I was more like thinking longterm, right?

That I was concerned if I'm feeling stiff fingers already now at this age, you know, how, how is it going to be in 10 years if I keep writing all this stuff. Uh, and, and if, if you lose your ability to write and, you know, I was pretty concerned where would, where would that lead to? And that was actually how I started thinking about and why I started doing the dictation was just because, well, I guess you could call it a health reason like that because I just, yeah, I just wanted to wealth be a bit more gentle on my fingers.

That was one thing. But the other thing is that usually when, for example, if I have conference calls or phone calls and stuff like that, I like to walk around because I feel like when I'm walking I'm thinking better. There's probably, it's just probably just me telling myself that that's true, but, but I, I just feels like I'm thinking better when I'm walking, so, and, and moving about as well, instead of sitting in front of the computer all the time in front of a keyboard. I also felt that that would probably be better for me in the longterm.

So that was the other reason that I picked it up. So, yeah.

Autumn (16m 14s): Oh, that's still a good story. I, I, I didn't actually know that. Why you started it because I think am for me it was one, I knew you were doing dictation but you're not the only person I know. And there's been so many authors. Um, Joanna Penn has done a podcast on a blog post on why she does dictation and why she moved to it. And so many people have said that they write so much faster. They use time that they might not have been using otherwise. So you can kind of fit it in maybe in different ways.

If you have a hard time sitting down at your keyboard, you know, technically you could go dictate while you're making dinner, as long as you're, you know, you've got the microphone and something cook hooked up, or if you're taking a walk or, I was thinking about it on my commute. I have currently an hour drive each way. And I was thinking, well, I could try dictation I mean, my brain's ruling about it usually about my stories are what I'm working on anyway. So why don't I give that a try? And all these other people are doing it and they're saying it is so much faster and they're like getting a book out in a month, you know, or you're, you know, you're doing so many more, maybe 5,000 words in a session or it's just going so much faster.

Even if he did a whole chapter, uh, you know, sometimes just sit down and write, type out a chapter. A talking if you're organized is so much faster than typing so that you could actually have this much more work done if you dictate. And so that's, I was like, darn, that's it. I'm giving this a try. So that's what brought me to dictation.

Jesper (17m 46s): Alright, OK. yeah. Uh, I mean, so basically,

Autumn (17m 53s): well I really like it. I guess that's, that's what I can, I mean I, it's a lot more productive. Um, and I don't, one of the things, and I don't know, some people, I think some writers she had his challenge with me, but the others probably don't. But when I'm typing stuff, I often find myself, you know, my, my thinking is way ahead of my fingers. So, and then sometimes I struggled to remember what, what was it that I just started, I wanted to write here and then I sort of pause because I have to think again because I'm usually like three, four sentences ahead of how fast I can type.

And that's really annoying because it disrupts my flow all the time. Whereas when I'm speaking or dictating, I can just keep up with my trail of thought. So it's, it's a lot easier. I could see that. And I think so you've definitely found a use for it and I've got a I can give some pros and cons too. When I think it works, and when I think it doesn't work in my why, it might not be the best fit for the way my mind works, which will admit, might be the only mine like mine on the planet, but probably not probably there somewhere out there whose as kooky as me.

But I know part of what I came up against when I first started looking at this was people talk about dictation, so what are you dictate into? And I ended up sending you this email saying, okay, how do you do this? When I started doing some research thing, how do I even get started with this? So you can, can you tell people how you're doing your dictation in terms of equipment? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So by the way, I can, I'll, I'll put links in the show notes to all of this a equipment stuff as well, so people can go on and find it.

Um, but so what I use is that I use a handheld recorder, uh, in my case, I use Olympus a w S eight, five two a. So it's just like a pretty small and simple handheld recorder um, and then I used to stand at headset because then as I said before, then I can move around a and I have equipped that headset with a mini for show that the blocks out any wind noise because a I have actually been walking outside dictating books as a, I mean, people might look a bit weird when you're walking by and talking about somebody slaying dragons from what bad, but that's life should be that interesting.

Yes. But a so I equipped the a headset with that mini for a to block out the wind noise. Um, and then of course a the main thing here is that you need a dictation software, meaning like a speech to text software a and here I use dragon natural speaking a because that is by far the best software onto market. There's nothing that does a dictation as well as a dragon naturally speaking.

Um, and that's basically what I use. So in total, this is going to set you back something like a little bit less than $400, I think. Um, and of course the main expense here is the software, the dragon naturally speaking. Um, but of course if you don't have money for that, you might be able to find some secondhand version on eBay or something like that. Yeah. And that's what it to just give it a try. I wanted to start cheaper and so I looked at am Google drive actually has a pretty, you know, it's still Google and so it has a half decent, um, text to speech.

Yes. And then I ran into the problem where even if I wanted to do the dragon am dictation software, I can't because I'm on a Mac and they killed their Mac platform about two or three years ago. So you can only buy it for a PC and that just, this is me off, but we won't go there. They have something new called dragon anywhere, which is am text to type. So it actually, you don't have to record it where the, what you're doing, it's actually kind of neat.

You literally, you're just talking into a microphone. It is recording it and it's not turning itself off or anything else. And it's, you don't see what it's doing, where the dragon anywhere your live talk to type, so as you speak it is translating onto a page and if you're looking at it, you will then look at it and be a little bit distracted or you'll see the spelling errors. And so I really think if you're going to do dictation, you want something where you're literally just talking into something and you're not going to see the visual, otherwise you get incredibly distracted.

And I would save with the Google drive option, which I did try out first because, Hey, I already had it. It's already set up on my phone. It has the problem where once you pause, if you're, if you're a pauser and you need to think about the next sentence or just something, it'll just turn itself off. So then you have to press the button again and get it going again. And then you see what you've been talking and it's just, yeah, that's, I think you really, if you're going to do this, you need to find a way of being able to talk to something and then upload that sound file am to something else that's going to translate it because otherwise you're going to get way too frustrated and too caught up in looking and reading at what you just did and see that it shouldn't translate something.

Right. And especially when you get like my current work in progress has a lot of Gaelic and native American names and I'm sorry, will you ask a at a, Hey, Google drive does not know what to do with that. Where the dragon software, you can teach it to recognize those words and it's a lot of time investment, but you, if you're really going to write 80,000 words or a whole series, you can get it up to speed on what you're talking in will actually spit it out perfectly. But it dragon anywhere and that was the other problem.

Dragon anywhere requires an internet connection. And where my life takes me, I don't have that all the time, so I could not actually use it at times. And I think that's what dragon anyways, a subscription service. It is a monthly fee. I don't like that personally. I like to just buy the software and then I own it. And I was very disappointed that it didn't have the capabilities as the dragon your. I'm using the natural speaking I w you know, if it had a subscription where I could then use like the upload the file and have it translate, I would've been, we would've been worth a month, month for me just to give it a good earnest trout.

Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't have that capability. It is literally just the talk to type and it doesn't have the upload. And so it was very frustrating when you're stuck in this world of so many different platform users. My parents are online X and or left in Lennox and so yeah, there's a lot of people not using PCs. Hello? Dragon are you listening? Yeah. Yeah, I, I, there was, there used to be an Apple version of it though. They killed it.

They killed it because they couldn't get it to work properly. I mean, I was making too many mistakes and all that, so, so they, they killed it, put it online. Maybe there's a market for it, I'm sure that they will or something, but just want to play around for a bit, uh, testing it, you know, you can use the Google docs. A iOS software also has the building dictation software that is powered by CV. Yeah. So you can play around with it like that or even use dragon anywhere if that's, you know, just four months or something.

So just dragon anywhere has, it does have a 14 day free trial. So I did give that a go. I love it when people do do that, uh, to the, you know, they give you a chance to drive it. So I did use the dragon anywhere and just consciously made sure I was somewhere with internet connection when I gave it a go. But it was very, like I said, it's, it would be so much better to be able to do it. Like you're doing it. And I think Joanna Penn, it literally talking into a recorder and then uploading that file. Yeah. Because basically the way it works on my end is that I have my handheld recorder and I just talk into that one and then once I'm done a I just stopped the recording and I plug it into the USB port of my computer and then it just transcribes the whole thing into a, into a document.

Right. So it's, it's perfect. Um, but unfortunately I would say that at this point in time, or at least when we're recording this, maybe it'll change. So probably will change in the future, I'm pretty sure. But right now dragon natural speaking is the only proper software, I think if you want to dictate an entire novel that is usable, otherwise you can use other things like we talked about. But you know, I don't think you're going to get an optimal result without dragon naturally speaking.

Yeah. And I can say, having just done the research, I think in December that, or maybe it was even November, but it was still very recently that there were a couple other ones that talk about being novel, but for reviews and comments, uh, dragon is, is the way to go. And it really has a good solid platform where if you're going to do something that's 80 to a hundred and some thousand words, it's, it's designed to handle that where so many of the other ones are more for spreadsheets and business reports.

So there are like 5,000 to 10,000 words and that's, that's really what they were designed to handle. But there's a few who are trying really hard to compete. But I think for what people were saying, just being able to transcribe the words into sentences, the way you're saying it a dragon is definitely still the best. I think Google was coming up second because they do use their AI am deep thought that, you know, they're really, they're getting very, very good. Google is an understanding what you're saying, but they're not actually quite as good as dragon for a for this text to type or talked to tight.

No, indeed on me. And the last thing you want to be annoyed about when you're trying to dictate an entire novel is to software. So if you're getting annoyed with it would be like having a faulty keyboard and trying to write a novel. Right. I mean you don't want to deal with that, so yeah. Yeah. And I know they'd go ahead. Yeah, no, I was just saying maybe I could just talk a bit about training your dragon software because I'll have to assume for the rest of this episode that we're talking about trying to drive himself where because of not much else makes sense to me.

Yeah. That was going to ask, cause I saw even when I was doing the research that there were really two minds about how you do the dictation. And there was some, actually I think Joanna Penn, um, and a few other authors just literally talk the way we're talking right now. And they don't worry about saying period, a space, new paragraph, but I think you do something differently. So maybe this is where you're heading. Yeah. Well, yeah, we can get into all that, but, but what I wanted to say first was essentially, so when you get your dragon software, you basically have to train it a bit because there are, well like me, of course I'm not even native English speaker, but so, so, but, but even if you are native English speaking, there was a lot of different, um, uh, well what do you call it?

Like not slang but a dialects, dialects and accents. Everyone's a little different. Yeah. So, so the software need to learn how you are pronouncing words. Um, and if you take a bit of time to actually train the software a, then you can get a very, very accurate result. So I think my dictation is about 99%

Jesper (29m 42s): accurate when I dictate. It's very, very rare that software makes any mistake. Um, the few times it happens, then it's usually because either I'm speaking way too fast, which I have a tendency to do. Uh, if I don't sort of remind myself to at least pronounce the words properly a then sometimes it is the software might misunderstand me or if I'm out walking in, the wind is blowing straight into the microphone. And of course if it goes wrong, right? But, uh, but it's like 1% of the time.

So usually it works wonders. Um, and then I would say what you do is that you take a few chapters of your writing and you use that as a training of four, the software basically. So when, once you're, once you're starting the, the, the software will actually ask you to just start dictating some stuff so that they can learn a your way of pronouncing words.

And they are, I'm, I'm saying, take your own book you wrote yourself and then start dictating that because then the software will learn your way of writing because what you wrote is also when you start dictating your novel, it's going to be sort of in the same way of, you know, it's the same word to using. It's the same way you are speaking. Um, so you might as well train it from the get go on your work rather than some other author's work.

So don't, don't pull down a random book from the bookshelf and start dictating the wasted opportunity. Yeah. If you don't have a novel, then just write 3000 words of random stuff, know it ran at random story or whatever, and then use that as you are method. That sounds good. A yeah. And then once you're done with that, then you need the software to transcribe, uh, then it actually does allow you to basically connect straight into Scribner.

We talked Scrivener and episode 54, if anybody needs some input on that, but it does allow you to do that. But I actually don't, I always pull up a clean note pad and then I asked the software to, to describe into the notepad rather than into Scribner. And then I copy paste from the notepad into Scribner. And the reason I do that is because I don't want to have any conflicting functionality between Scribner and dragon. So when dragon transcoders transcribes it, there is no like software on the other side, so to speak, that it might have any conflicts with.

So an note pap, there's no software, so it's just transcribing and and that works best. So that's how I do it, at least it sounds pretty good. And so when you were saying with dictation you then you do put in your periods and you tell open quotes and quotes.

Autumn (32m 41s): And so how do you, how long did it take you to get used to talking your punctuation? Well, actually not as long as you think. Ah, yeah. Uh, yeah, I, I don't remember exactly how long I spent getting used to it, but it came pretty quickly. Uh, but I think Myles will vary on this. You know, every person will be a slightly different. So some people will find it very difficult where others may be like me, I found it quite easy. Um, but the thing is that if you want to start using dictation then it's not a thing that you try one time and then you give up thinking that, wow, okay I tried it.

That doesn't work. You know, give it at least a week or two if you're dictating every day and then go for it for a week or two and see. And then you can decide afterwards that if it doesn't work for you that that's fine. But it's PR dictation is not for everyone for sure. But I also believe that a lot of people, they just give up too fast because it is different and you need to train your brain to do it. Yes. That would be my biggest comment too is even if you decided to go with, uh, Joanna Penn who doesn't do the punctuation and you just talk, cause that was what I was willing to just start with that and just narrate a story.

So you're basically telling a story to you know, the wind and just go ahead and tell, speak your book. And I still kind of am in love with that idea, but I did find like my tips, if you're going to give this a try, you should have some pretty, I think it'd be harder to be a pantser unless you're really good pants are, but you should have an idea of where your story is going because you can get off track or get lost very quickly. And like I said in the worst thing you can do is actually have it doing the talk to text where you're seeing it put out what you're doing.

So you don't want to do that. You want to be able to talk right into a microphone and you want to be able to sit down and focus. I, you cannot do this while you're driving. Trust me, that's very dangerous. So do this while you're walking or sitting outside or sitting at home or you know, you, you really, especially until you get this going and used to it, you need to consider it your writing time. And it's not just a shortcut. You need to really work on this and focus, but you, it's, to me it's worse. It's so much easier to get lost in off track.

But that's also because from my own learning abilities, I learned better. And why when I see it in front of me, I need to actually read a when I, when people speak to me, I actually do not comprehend it as well until I write it down and then it clicks in my brain. Somehow it becomes cemented. And so the dictation ended up being almost difficult that way because I'm usually, I'm the memory, uh, you will have to Yesper ask me like, did, how did, why don't remember what we talked about. And I'm the one who remembers, I'm the, with my husband, I am the memory, but when I only hear it spoken, I don't remember it as well.

So I was thinking I was getting lost in my own story. I thought it would be easy cause usually when I'm writing, I have the whole scene playing in my head like a movie and I'm just getting it out. I'm just trying to keep up with the characters and saying what I'm seeing. And so I'm like, obviously it'll be so much faster to just say what I'm seeing, but I would get lost. Like, did I say that? Did I? I was, I would get so complicated, like not remembering what I was trying to get to that I actually like typing.

I actually do like typing. I hate to say it and I'm a fairly fast typists. I mean I can go over 60 words a minute if I'm typing fast. I've done up to 90 words a minute. So I'm a really fast typist, so I usually do keep up with my thoughts and I, if I get a thought that's ahead of time, I just write it down that I jump in. I fill in backspacing so my writing is not always front to back. It's sometimes front to middle to front, to end, to middle, to front end. Um, I'm very, I hate to admit how chaotic I am.

It sounds horrible, but I am not as linear as I thought I was. And trying to dictate a chapter from front to back. I realized how much I'm not linear and again, I think I could train my brain to do it, but definitely not having access to the software that would have made it easy or was kind of made it a huge challenge I think for me. But I would definitely say if you're going to do this B serious work on a scene at a time and have an idea of where you want to go, if you, if you're good at winging things, I'm pretty good at winging things.

I, I always show up at the podcast with half-baked ideas and somehow we get to the end of it every time. But for the book where I am kind of a hybrid and I liked the plot and I kind of know where it's going, it dictation was a real huge challenge that I have put aside for Monday for now. It sounds great and I'd like to give it a try again, even though I don't have a PC in my life at the moment. So I, I again, I'm just going to put a baby though too. Hey, dragon cop base. Um, maybe if they do the cloud based software system where I can use what you're using, I think it would definitely be worth trying again.

But for the moment, I kind of like my, especially right now where my writing time is very limited and I can just come back, see where I left off and go am and I don't need anything else but my laptop, I'm really good with that. So that's where I met with my dictation. It's, I think it's sounds so good. I'd love to, I have this visualization of going out into the woods and just talking to the tree is telling my story to the world and having it flow. And that has not happened yet.

I don't know. But, uh, and, and I, I think everybody, you know, everybody

Jesper (38m 37s): is finding their own way through it in the end. That's fine. I mean for me at least I asked you said before, I think it's important to to dictate the comers, the full stops and all of that stuff, because when you get into the editing afterwards, if you don't have all the customers and the stops in the paragraph changes in there and all that, it's just, it becomes one big mess for me. It does. It's just like, Whoa, what is going on here? And the stream of consciousness.

Yeah. And then, yeah, I just don't like that. I like it though. At least there was some structure in there. Some of the comments will definitely be wrong and all that, but, but at least there was, it reads like sentences and it reads like a story. Right? A it's, it does not read like a complete mess. Um, because that, that's the other part about it. You know, that the dictation for me is a tool for first drafting it. I've tried to use it actually also for editing and Oh my God, what an eye matches that.

Really, you should the look on my face when you said that. Yeah, that was a complete nightmare. So I remember going to do that again, but it is for first drafting and and because it is for first drafting. Then I also feel that it's important to just keep the flow going. And that ties in with what you just said before because you are absolutely right that at least for me, it helps a ton to know exactly where I'm going. So when I start dictating a chapter, I know where it starts, I know exactly what's going to happen in the chapter and I know where it ends.

So basically all I do is I need to fill in the blanks, which does mean for me. Uh, my, the plotting takes quite a long time because it's very detailed. But I would almost say that if you took a novel and you'd pulled out all the descriptions and all the, you know, the, all the am dialogues and all the description of, of how the characters are feeling, then you have my plot are plotting because it's so Dita.

It's explaining everything that happens. A and all I need to do when I'm dictating is basically putting in what the characters are seeing. And what they're hearing and what they're feeling and their thoughts, and then the dialogue of course. But other than that, everything is in my outline already. And here of course, I fully understand that we are all very different than we find out way, and that's perfectly fine, but at least if you know where you're headed, that makes a difference as well. With the dragon software, the dragon software does not close down because you're stopping.

So it doesn't matter actually, if you stop and you think for 60 seconds about what you want to say, and then you continued the software, we'll just, you know, not trust or 60 seconds so it doesn't matter. So it's not like your foster it going all the time. What do you just stop and you think that's, that's absolutely fine. But if we're talking about that we want to dictate with a high word count per session, then of course if you're stopping too much to think about things, then that slows down your production.

Right? So yeah, my MA's will, it'll vary how you go about it, but a set up. But also to come back to the unique fences you were, we talked that you mentioned earlier, because I have a trick that I use there, um, because especially with fantasy, uh, we have a lot of, we had words, no, really? Yeah. Well I'm like character names, place names and all the weird stuff that we come up with. Um, and it's, it's a bit of a nightmare to train the software to understand what it means because at well then you would need to pronounce it exactly the same way every time.

And you probably, you don't even do it at a SDR the yourself. No, probably not. No. So what I do is that I take a, uh, a small index card and then I make translations on it. So for example, if our wealth flower coming series, um, our main character is real. So I would just write on my index card rail and then I would write equal hero because he's the main character, right? So whenever I come to, I need to dictate his name.

I would just say open brackets, hero, close brackets, and then continue. And then once I've transcribed the whole thing, then I'll just do a search and replace in word and say, please, you know, replace this with a rail. And then that's it. And you and I do the same for all the different places. A so I could just write, for example, one of the city I could translate into just being capital or you know, a small city, big city, whatever.

I mean I have them on my index card so I know what it means, what it is. So while I'm dictating, I'm, I'm carrying my next card and whenever I need to save the words, I just take a quick peek at the annex cotton, then I'll say the, uh, the, the, the replacement word instead. Right. And so that just keeps the flow going and it makes sure that you don't end up with a, some sort of weird transcription when you're going back to a to edit that you don't even know what is the city person I'm talking about here. I have no idea. Right.

And I have to write that in the past is it's really annoying when you're trying to, you know, edit a chapter that you, you dictated like a three weeks ago. What is this? Yeah. That, that's actually really, I bet that helps speed it up. And that's a really good tip. Yeah. And the other thing I do also to just keep the flow, which I'm sure autumn is going to get so annoyed when she gets no, but what I do just to keep

Autumn (44m 33s): the flow going is that a I don't really, unless it comes to me straight out, then I don't really stop much for to describe setting. So if they, for example, approaching a castle or something, I won't usually stop too much in my dictation flow to think about what the castle looks like. A instead, I'll just say like open brackets, insert description of castle here close brackets. I can't wait for this. I know you're gonna love it.

It's rough draft and it's like, Oh fuck off this description. I have that. I know exactly where I need to be. I guess who or what I'll be adding. Yeah. But, but it's basically, I mean the, the intent of it is, is just to keep the flow going and, and what exactly what the cast looks like, doesn't matter for the story to be told. You know, you can handle that in the editing and there you can, you can think more about, okay, what would it look like? And because also when you, you're dictating, you often say what just comes to you and what comes to you is to cliches as well.

And that's why I prefer not just do it while dictation because it's, it becomes very filled with cliches. So let's go for the moment of truth considering you have plotting and then you have all this description and stuff. You have to put it on the back end. Do you really think dictation is faster than typing? I think if you are dictating, no, sorry. If you're applauding, I should say like I do then I think it might be a slightly faster, but probably not a lot because it takes me a long time to product level because I explained that before.

Right? So you're very detail. If you're one of the writers who you can get by with a plotting each of your chapters with like 10 bullet points and you just know where it stops and you know a bit about what happens in the middle and you know where it ends. If, if you, if you feel comfortable with your plotting at at that level, then I think it will be a lot faster to dictate uh, because you, you, you know, essentially you could plot your entire novel in probably a week if you're okay with just bullet points. Um, and then you just start dictating and you can, it's not difficult at all.

If you spent like two to three hours dictating, it's not difficult to do four or 5,000 words. That's, that's pretty easy. And you have to write pretty fast. If you're going to write 5,000 words in two hours, then you print them fast if you can do that. Um, so it's not, yeah. In terms of speeding up, it really helps a lot in, in, in that way. Well, that's fair enough. Well. So I think it's probably if, if it's something you want to try, I think it might be worthwhile. And like I said, I, I struggled with it and I gave it a a, gave it a good college try, but it's not going to work for me at the moment, but I'm willing to go back to it at some point to give it another try.

Cause I still have this, this idea in my head, but definitely am I want to do the dragon naturally speaking and until I can do that, I guess I'm just kind of waiting. Hello. It's definitely still intriguing, but I have to vent. I still kind of like typing.

Jesper (47m 50s): Nope, that's perfectly fair. So I think in conclusion, you know, am the main thing is here that you, you sort of need to know where you're going in advance, whether you plot in detail like I do or a bit more high level that's up to you, but, but know where you're going in advance. Otherwise I don't think dictation will help you much. Um, and then I would advise you to use some placeholder words instead of your. Wonderful fats. And then of course a above all, you need the right equipment because otherwise it's not gonna work, especially when it comes to dictation software.

And unfortunately Mac users, I, I'm not sure it's going to be well for you for the time being, but a we're waiting to pick up the show notes then a I will have link all the equipment that I personally use there. Uh, there will be some things to eBay's and stuff too, but it's basically just to show you the products though. There was no Fillion there is no affiliate links there. You see, if I had take been dictating the evidence, dragon would not understand what I said. That's right. But there was no affiliate links.

That's what I was about to say. A it is just to show you the product names. And if you don't show up on eBay, that doesn't matter. Just write down the product name and find it wherever else you shop instead. It's pretty commonplace products DS that I use, so there's nothing special in it. So I think that's am that's the word. And dictation sounds good. Talk to you next week. Absolutely. So we'll be back next week and the next one day, we're going to take a closer look at editing and which different types of editing is available to you.

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