The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 40 – Character Arcs

The character arc represents the change the character will undergo as the story progress. 

Stories are all about growth.

If the character doesn’t change then there is no story. 

But how do you create a character arc and what different kinds are there?

Join Autumn and Jesper as they share how to create an authentic and believable character arc.

And here's the link to the really cool (funny) map, Autumn was talking about: https://www.instagram.com/p/B2MttwuA-kW/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

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Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s): You're listening to the amwritingfantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing join to best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now onto the show with your hosts. Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (31s): Hello, I'm Jesper and I'm Autumn, this is episode 40 of the amwritingfantasy podcast and we are going to talk about character arcs today.

Autumn (44s): So yeah, I think that that's going to be an interesting conversation because character it's a pretty important they are. And well, you know, as we just were recently talking to each other and I said characters are easier to understand the most people. So I think we're going to nail this one pretty good.

Jesper (1m 2s): Yeah. And the thing would characters is that, uh, we have, we have control of what they say and what they do, right? So it's much easier than real life. People

Autumn (1m 10s): insert evil laugh here. So yes, I think this'll be really good. And it's, it's important to understand your character. So this'll be a lot of fun. I love adding depths and finding new ways to bring out different aspects of character. So we'll try not to get carried away with this one.

Jesper (1m 25s): Yeah. Who knows where we're going to end up actually, you know, speaking of, of real life people, uh, I was, uh, I was in Sweden this last week and, uh, I just, I don't understand people. I am, I think the longer I live, the more I figured out that I don't understand. So I was am, I was in the airport in Stockholm or queuing for to enter the plane to fly back home to, to Copenhagen. And then, uh, they, I don't know how they do it in the U S but at least here, you know, if you have priority seats then you're always, you're called on first.

Um, and then they, of course, they scan your boarding pass and whatnot to make sure that the UI actually a priority customer. And, uh, luckily enough, I am one of those all the time. Yeah. I fly so much that I'm a priority customer. So, so the thing is that, and this is what I don't get right, so we, I'm queuing at that airport and I need to uh, uh, bought the plane and they call priority customers. So we'd go up and we stand in the queue and of course scan the boarding costs.

Uh, and then you enter the plane, right. But there was, again, this, this is not because it's not just happened once, it happens all the time, but this time there was five people in that queue who were not priority customers who tried to skip in and get on board. And it's like, and every time it happens, I'm like, why do people do this? I don't understand. Please they can see that the boarding is getting scammed. They know that they're going to get caught and they're still standing there in the queue trying to get in.

And

Autumn (3m 5s): I just, I don't get it just to go and sit down. I always laugh because a, we take ferries quite a lot and the best sign ever saw was at the front of a ferry that said, do not turn on your car engine. So far. No car has reached the dock before the ferry. Like yes, they're not going to make the plane go in faster by boarding faster is not going to happen. You're not going to beat the actual airplane. No. But but it's just, I mean I did the,

Jesper (3m 32s): the thing about wanting to get on board and and I mean that's one of the things honestly I do like with B about being a priority customer because you sort of get on board and you get to sit down off of standing in the queue and there is space in the overhead compartments for your luggage because there's nobody else on the plane at that point. So that part I do like, so I, I, I saw them understand why people want to get on board, but since the boarding cards are scanned and you know you're going to get caught, that's where my logic sort of just didn't add up anymore.

I just don't understand. So you're trying to skip line on something. You know you're gonna get caught. So what the heck is the point?

Autumn (4m 9s): Maybe they just like to get yelled at. I don't have any better insight than that. I can't say understand people all the time. Sometimes I don't understand myself. I mean, heck, we haven't been on video chat here today and we're not on video right now, so you guys can't see. But I actually have some pretty radical, awesome purple streaks in my hair. So if you wanted to ask why I decided to add purple to my hair, I don't know. I felt like it. So I, people are a little strange.

However, there is one thing I do understand and we do this, you know, with our course, with our students and my niece and I just teamed up to be accountability partners. So she's working associate's degree. Yeah, my niece Kayla, if you're listening, big shout out. She's one of my, my fans, my biggest fan in my family. So I think that's so wicked cool. I love talking to her. How old is your niece? She is. Oh God, you're going to ask me this.

Actually I think she just turned 22 so sorry if I missed that. But yes, issues just you know, just in college she's having a good old time and she loves fantasy and fantasy books so we get to talk about writing and books and all these things that she gets into, which is fantastic. But she had some stuff she wanted to work on and I also said in the last couple episodes I was on a writing break and I'm getting back into it and it's kind of going slow. And so we got talking and she's like, well I'm trying to do some mindfulness and some yoga and I want to get back and she does some fantasy art. And I'm like, well I'm trying to get back into my fantasy art and I'm really getting bad at my writing.

She's like, that's it. We are mailing emailing each other. So she emails me on Wednesday and I email her on Saturday and we have to reply back obviously when the other one emails and say how we've been doing and it's working, it is working. That is the awesome thing. I've, I can't say I've written chapters, but I am getting through a scene that is very sticky, but that's a whole different conversation of what do you do when you plan something and plot something and then a scene decides to take over and take what you know is way too long. It should have ended a chapter ago, but the scene keeps the characters keep drawing out this one thing.

And logically I know when I get to editing I can just cut it down. And right now this is just the way the process is going and I just need to keep writing, but I'm just annoyed and I want to get past the scene. But anyway, my niece Kayla is helping me and making sure I am writing and I've done a new book cover or getting it, she's doing good on her yoga and meditation and we're doing good.

Jesper (6m 39s): Oh, that's perfect. So just unpacking that a bit. So what are you emailing to each other, what your goals are for the next week? I just giving each other a status update or what are you doing?

Autumn (6m 49s): Uh, mostly status updates cause we know we have our goals that we know we both want to either, you know, at least be working on it and writing um, or at least doing the yoga. So I just say, Hey, this is what I've been doing and check in. Have you been doing this? And she'll say, yeah, you know, yes or no. I haven't quite done that as much as I wanted to. So right now we don't have any specific like word count goals or anything, but uh, we're at least trying to make sure we're getting it in. And for me she knows I won't try and to write every day. So it's just like if I say I skipped the day, I'm still saying I skipped it.

I try to make sure at least get a sentence and then I can say I wrote. Right.

Jesper (7m 24s): Yeah, true. Yeah. I mean, I have heard it before about am accountability partners and of course that's also something that, that you and I tried to do autumn with the, with the courses to an audit, the students that we get for four hour online writing cost to, to serve a bit as accountability partners and try to answers people's questions every month, uh, if, if they have questions or if they want on the fly stuff, then be there in the mastermind Facebook group for, for the students.

So I do think it's important because, and we've probably talked about this many times before, but being an author is such a lonely profession, so it's good to have somebody who is sort of, yeah. Your wing man there.

Autumn (8m 8s): Absolutely. And I'm loving it and it's a good excuse to get to email my niece every twice a week. So that's kind of fun too. They see what's going on. I get to relive my, you know, college days through her. It's, it's, it's kind of, yeah. Kind of

Jesper (8m 20s): weird when, when the young ones, I was about to say gross up, but it's kind of weird, you know? Uh, it's, it's different conversations. You are, I also went for like a, a probably I think two weeks ago. Uh, my oldest son, he felt like he needed some time alone, him and me. So we, uh, we just went to a beach for a walk. And, uh, it's, it's funny when they get older because he really enjoys that, you know, just, just for a walk, just to go and talk for an hour and that's all he wanted to do and that, that was great.

I mean, you know, when they're younger that they're to, well, that's going to bore them to death. Right. But it's funny how things change. Yeah, it is. That's, that's always when, uh, I mean, I never had kids, but for like my nieces and nephews, it's when they get old enough to talk back and you can feed them ideas to give, to drive their parents nuts. What she, that was my favorite. I think we might be an ocean apart here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think on, on, on my side here, uh, it's, it's also been really busy lately.

Uh, I'm desperately trying to, uh, to get the am some modules recorded for our future costs on fantasy world building. Yeah, well, I'm making progress, but I have a goal to finish my recordings within the next two weeks. And quite honestly, I don't know if my accountability partner, if I had one, would think that that would be possible, but, uh, but let's see if I can make it. It's just been, it's been a bit too busy lately because, uh, we've also had our online writing costs open for the first time in six months.

And of course when you deal listener listening to this podcast episode for the cost will be closed again, but you could still go to a all submit fantasy riders, guide.com/main. If you want to sign up for the wait list, that's still possible. Uh, and then you will be the first one to know next time around. But, uh, it's just, yeah, it's just been one of these a couple of weeks where it's been incredibly busy. So, uh, yeah, that's it. With the yam writing. Fantasy podcast Oh, and I think first of all, I want to give a huge shout out to sate who joined us on Patrion.

So that was awesome and we really appreciate it. Yeah, it's great to have a new one join us. And he was already a, he'd found us through the podcast as well. So that is just, you know, it makes me feel good to give back a teller shout out to him. Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, uh, all the support we can get from, uh, from, from people will, will basically keep, uh, or help keep the lights on. For 40. Amwritingfantasy podcast so, yeah, I mean, I, I think I speak for both autumn and myself when I say that we really enjoy making it, you know, this new podcast format compared to the older YouTube videos.

Uh, but that said, I also want to point out the obvious I guess, but it is still quite a lot of work to do this. So, you know, even a dollar in support does make a difference. So, uh, anyway, thanks again. Safe for, for, for these, uh, for, for your support. And we hope that you will enjoy the rewards that you are getting out of a patron. Actually, I can let you know by the way, a side when you're listening to this that I did post your amwritingfantasy bookmark already. Uh, and uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know, maybe by the time you hear this episode because we're always recording a bit in advance, you might already have received it.

Autumn (11m 55s): Yeah. So check out Patrion and uh, there was a link in the show notes and then you can learn about all those rewards that we are offering to those who support us. And I guess autumn that there was quite a lot of rewards actually. Even, even if you're only supporting with $1. Yeah. We like to give back because I think it's not even, yeah, the dollar helps keep the lights on, but it's sort of like getting comments and stuff. It's a, it makes you know that this is important to people and that is a huge motivator for us to keep going. As much as you know, getting a little bit of money to actually pay the licensing fees and you know, the website, not all those little things that kind of go along with running an online business.

So thank you for every all of our Patreon supporters. It's always fantastic to have them here. And you know, I just, we were talking about comments and you'd mentioned before about you know, other authors and it's a, you know, a network. And that was the biggest thing. I know I've been talking to a couple authors and I've seen a lot of posts. I hang out a lot on Instagram. I admit, and I have seen so many authors this last week commenting that they had such a rough August, that they've been taking a break even from social media or from writing or from something in their life.

Because for some reason it wasn't just me. It was a really rough August for a lot of people. So you know, a big shout out to a lot of authors that, Hey, just remember you're not alone. It's nice to know that I did wasn't the only person in the world having a rough OBGYN August. I'd rather, you know, I wish we all had a fantastic, I can't wait until we're all shouting about how wonderful of an October we're having. I just think that's an important to thing. And actually if you do happen to go to Instagram, if you're an Instagrammer and you go to my profile, which is just autumn Bert, it's really, really hard to find.

Uh, I actually just short shared this really cool mental map that had some really neat aspects. Yes. For I should share this with you because you will love it. It is a mental map that is drawn in the image of a fantasy map. It has things that I spend too much time online, falls the dormant volcano of blind ambition, the mountain range of impotent rage. So, Oh, I'm already loving it. I want to see that. I will have to send it to you. It is super awesome.

I told everyone that I am currently living in the Glade of hopeful aspirations while drinking from the river of pleasure in this of small things. So that is where I am currently living. Um, and I'm ignoring that outside thing that people call reality. It just sucks. Just I'm happy in my Glade about hopeful aspirations and just leave me here for the rest of the fall. Yeah. But you know, what do you think it would be possible to, to, to have a link to it, to some somewhere because then I could put it into shownotes and then the listeners could see it as well.

Yeah, I think I can share just the post with you and that way they can go straight to it. And if not, I'll do a screenshot. So I will give you need an Instagram account to be able to view it. That's the one thing I love about Instagram. It's not like Facebook, you don't get kicked out just because you don't have an out. Anyone can see it. So I will make sure I get that over to you because it is kind of awesome and it's a good reminder you're one not alone because so many other people feel, uh, you know, that they're living in the Crip, Crip, crippling insecurity.

Vil um, you know, it's a whole community. Come join us. Yeah, yeah, no, that sounds awesome. And I guess I just sort of, uh, out of myself on, on how little I know about instrument to ask about that. That's okay. You're much more, uh, I used to be so much more active on Twitter and that is definitely where you are. You've got your forte on Twitter and I've kind of backed up and sometimes I go there and I'm like, you can do what now.

So fair is fair. Yeah. Yeah. I do post a lot on Twitter for sure. That's, that's, that's a given. I like that. A community, they're quite honestly, Oh character arcs yeah, it's awesome. I really liked couches, Zach but but maybe before we get into all of this, maybe we need to define what we're talking about.

Right. So character arcs that is a very good point. Just because you know, I, I used to be one of my pet peeves. You'd hear something bad around like show, don't tell, what the hell does that mean? What does a character arc? So this is not just the plot of your novel, it's not your plot. It is the character's journey, the progression of character takes. And one of my favorite things is there's a huge misperception that character's always progress because there's actually, there's actually a whole bunch of different types of character arcs but as far as, I've kind of boiled it down to three.

So there's a fail arc where a character instead of succeeding actually becomes maybe a villain or dies or you know, Ned am in game of Thrones is through book one is a wonderful example of a fail Ark. He dies, he does not succeed. There's also an Epic fantasy, the heroic arc that is the one that we often write about. And the one we readers often expect isn't so sometimes assume that it's the only type of arc. And that's where the character starts out as, Oh, let's go with the, the favorite trope of the farm girl who grows up and becomes a great warrior, becomes a King.

You know, they succeed in saving the country, becoming a great sorceress am something fantastic and magical. It's a progressive arc because you know, they do succeed, but there's also one called a flat arch. And that one you don't see many of the best examples that you usually are like James Bond or Superman. You know, think of something where the character, there's a whole bunch of books that could be read in any order. Well, the character arc never changes. They always start the book self-assured that they can solve the, and everyone else around them's going, I don't know if you got this one.

And at the end they're proven right. They do succeed. They might have some self-doubts along the way, but they do manage to solve the problem. There is one huge book example that uses a flat art. Can you guess what that one is? Mm, no, that's probably because you haven't read it hunger games. So that writing the movies. But I have not read the book. Yes, Katniss Everdeen. She does not really change her character kind of stays the same from beginning to end.

Her initial thoughts and feelings about the government, about herself, about everyone except who is her current boyfriend. She doesn't really change over the entire course of three books. So that is a park. And that's a good example where the rare examples of writing a flat arch in something that is not just a serial series like you know, James Bond or Sherlock Holmes.

Jesper (18m 48s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. If we are defining, I mean the character arc is sort of the, the change that the character will undergo as the story progressed. Right. And so, so that's good. But now that you mentioned James Bond, uh, tha that's, that's like the perfect example of a story that doesn't have a character arc. So, and if, if you're saying the same is in hunger games, then I mean, at the end of the day as story does not have to have a character arc. But I do think at least in the case of James Bond and uh, and uh, I have to be fully transparent here that I'm not rented the James Bond books, but, uh, of course watching the movies I've done and am well I don't know, you'll have to forgive me here when I say this, but I really don't like dams.

Am I guess in my view it is just simply because there's no depth to that character because there are no, I mean essentially James Bond again going by the movies, but James Bond is the same in the end of the movie as he was in the beginning of the movie. There is no change and at least in my view, if there are no character art, then there is no story. That's how I view it. And of course people can feel absolutely free to disagree with me, but, but I think the character arc is what adds depth and and without it.

It, it just doesn't work. No, I can't. That's not to say that you know that the, well now you call it the, I can't remember which words you use for it. But basically it's the same thing that I'm mixing things up here because, uh, as I've been talking about before, we've been talking about before we have an upcoming book, uh, on flooding. And in that book there is a section around character arcs and in there we called them the positive arc, the negative art and the steadfast app. But it's exactly the same as what autumn was just saying is just some different words for it.

So now that I have you all confused, what I wanted to was that when you are talking about the flat flat arch or what we in our upcoming guidebook is calling the steadfast arc it, it doesn't mean that because if you're using that flat art there, it doesn't mean that there is no arc. I mean that, that's sort of the difference. I'm trying to get it because maybe the character doesn't truly change their beliefs or who they are. Uh, but that, you know, the character can still start with a certain belief.

And then the novel plot sort of confirms that that belief was correct in, in it at the end. So the resolution then reinforce us to coach us original belief. And if you see what I'm getting at, so if you're sort of uh, working at using the character arc, even if the coach doesn't change, but you're using it to show that the belief that the Carter had is actually true, that's a different one than if you're just saying, okay, here's the respondent, he's going to do some cool shit and then the stories over.

Right? I mean those two things are very different and that's what I'm trying to say. Yes. Does that make any sense at all? I'm just rambling. No, because there's a lot of things if just because a character with a flat arch or a steadfast art, they can start with this belief, the self belief in you know, that they can solve this problem or they are who they say they are and everyone else doubts. Just because the novel might prove that. Correct. There's a whole pathway and self doubt and well it's an arc and that's what we're going to talk about is how to actually create that art.

And then the only thing that really changes is that, you know, at the end of a steadfast arc, they're proven correct. Where the other arcs like the negative arc, the positive arc, the negative one, you know, they, instead of being proven correct, they fail. And the other one, the positive arc, they start off believing maybe they're not good enough and they managed to succeed. They become something greater. So they all kind of have the same starting point, which is useful because to create an arc, it's almost all the same steps. So that's kind of great.

And it's not, even though it creates such a nuance character and creates a whole pathway through the novel for this character, the actual steps to begin creating a novel arc are not that difficult. And so that's really where we need to go next I think, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking while you were talking there, um, because I think especially with the, with the, what the positive arc, what did, what did you call it again? A progressive or they are heroic. This just shows how amateur should we are.

You know, we haven't even aligned to terms before we started recording. There were like so many arcs but it's just what's out there. Yeah. But, but what I wanted to say about the positive one is that we were really at the core of it, we are dealing with internal change. It doesn't matter what you call it to be honest. But if you imagine a positive arc where the character is going from B being one kind of person to being another one. So

Autumn (23m 46s): this could be like weakness turning into strength or fear turning into bravery and, and you, you get the idea, right? So it's an internal change we're talking about. And then as a result you have this positive arc where at the core of it, the couch is sort of still the same person. However he or she has become, maybe you could say like a better or more fulfilled version of themselves. So, so I think that's the, that's the root of the positive change. No, that makes complete sense.

And I think often in a positive arc like that, you see an outward change too. But that's more symbolic because they believe more in themselves because they have created this internal change. It creates an external change as well. And that's sort of the fun thing because part of a character arc is internal and external things going on at the same time. Because sometimes you need those external factors to create the internal change. I mean really even in our own lives, why do we change? I, okay, I changed my hair color to purple because I felt like we're all, you change because you, you know, something is going to happen.

And that is usually the inciting incident. So that's one step. So yeah, it starts with you start with a character who has a certain belief and you need to create an external event that's going to make them reflect on who they are and what they need to become to, you know, reach this other goal. Yeah. And, and I think from movies and whatnot, I mean, it's often easiest to reference movies because we are, everybody wants us a lot of movies, but we don't always read the same books.

But in movies, I'm not the kind of ref reference a specific one, but just in general, do you know these kind of movies were something external, you know, something terrible happens and then afterwards the next scene you are seeing the characters now changing because of that external thing happening. And I don't know if it's because you know we are writers and Oh I'm a, I'm a writer that I just see way through that. It's just like that is to me that feels too lazy and it's like, yeah, okay, I understand that something external and big happened and also understand that of course it would influence you in one way or another.

I I fully get that. But sort of using that as your trigger to say and yeah, now Whoa, here we go. And now the character transformed into somebody else because it just feels too easy to meet it. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. And to me, my favorite, worse movie trope is when you have the flood character who begins the beginning because of the incident that happened before. Like his brother died, a horrible death that he is somehow feels responsible for us. So he is this a lone Wolf character who is grieving and standoffish and no why or this is going right now so he can win the girl saved the day, blah blah blah, blah blah.

So I didn't see that one coming a mile long. So I think there are always nuances and there's always ways of handling it so that you know, it's fresh, it's new. So that the character I have, this is one of my favorite ones with illnesses. I, we often have this discussion, you think you're all in the men and then you get sick again and then you have to sleep a little bit or you do too much. You know, it's the same with characters and character arcs just because something happens, you do not have, you know, something happening does that, it's not a math formula does not equal automatic change.

There's gotta be steps, progressions, back, steps back, sliding. Other things can happen. That's when you get into the subplots. Then you have this other thing that's pulling in one way and maybe that's the wrong direction. You know the love interest, best friend dies, Oh my gosh, now things are really screwed up. So that's actually why I like the seven steps of story structure because it has, it's not just a three act for act. It has this kind of ups and downs and backsliding in a moment right there in the middle that can be this horrible, tragic event that makes you reevaluate everything again because you need to kind of have those pushes.

So I do know when we do, like when I do a character arc, I literally start with four different parts and those are usually, we talked about inner and outer things. So inner motivation, you know, there's gotta be some inner reason that a character wants to change. We talked about an outer motivation. That's usually an external factor that makes them also realize they need to change to adapt. There's usually inner obstacles. And that's what we're talking about now is the inner obstacles. And there's also outer obstacles. But let's start with the inner, the inner of the ones that are like, well, you know, yes, I want to be a writer.

That's a good inner obstacle or inner motivation. That's my motivation is I want to, yeah, but the outer off the inner obstacles are sorta like I have doubts or where do I find the writing time? You know, I don't have a dual thing to write on right now. So those are your other obstacles. Actually that last one, not have anything to write on. That's an outer obstacle. So you can see how they kind of work together where you know, it doesn't have to be the arch villain sending pension men to come and stop you.

That's an outer obstacle. But it can be something simple. Like I have no writing utensils. While that kind of sucks. So those four things though can start to make the basis of a character arc. So you just need to sit down and think about your character and look at like the inner motivation. You know, what is it the character really wants? What is their secret inner drive? And again, it could be secret. I mean you could have a character that goes around telling everyone I want to be the world's best champion and blah, blah blah.

And then you're going to have that one in the back corner who's like, I, you don't really came admitted to themselves that they secretly want to be a great source for it because everyone knows that magic isn't real, but that's what they really, really want. But then never tell anyone unless they're like totally drunk. That's the fun of having characters. This is where you start bringing out those nuances that I talked about and that's why I said I'll try not to get too off track because this is what I love about character building is that you take that little nugget, that inner motivation, the thing that they secretly want.

And you know, you decide if your characters out there boasting that this is what they want. Or if it's the one who's in the corner saying, uh, no, I just want to sit here at all. I want to do is sit here and I just want to watch the world go around. We're really, you know, there's a lot more going on back there.

Jesper (30m 17s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and I, I think you're quite right in saying that, you know, everything sort of fits together. It's like one big puzzle. And that's also why in the, uh, in the, in the plotting book that we are finishing up there, there's a lot of diagrams and whatnot in it because everything sort of just, it slots in together like one big puzzle. But I do think that the key here is that you can use those external events like we just talked about too, to help facilitate the change. But the core of it, or the root of it should be the coach's own needs and motives.

So if you use that as your starting point to trigger the transformation, and then of course you can use these external event to support it as like a supporting structure. But if you use the inner motivations as, as your driver, then it will not come across like those movies that we were talking about before where, Oh, something happened and what B then now the person changed. You know then then, because if you can recognize that, well this character already had this motive inside of him or her and now they were trying to do something about it or they wanted to change maybe, and then something external happened and sort of pushed them over the line, then it works and then it comes across as very authentic and then you, you really feel like, okay, this makes sense.

You know, so, and that's why I said before that if you just push, push them over the line with the external event alone, that's where, to me it feels too flat and it feels like cheating because that's sort of the easiest solution, right? Whereas figuring out what are they inner motivations and how to actually build it up so that I both make it possible why they have this motivation, but I'm also showing it to the reader and then I'm using that as a weapon to drive the character arc. You know? That is not easy and that requires some serious thinking and some serious work and that's why it comes across as authentic because it actually makes sense.

Autumn (32m 15s): I think that's so, so true and so important. That's why I like books that even though they start with am action, but it's not necessarily the big action of the novel. It's like a little action and every day like, Oh, you know, one of the favorites is like showing that you know what's going to be your main character. Maybe they're picked on as a kid or they're struggling everyday. They don't quite fit in. They kind of already Harbor a desire for something different. Like you're, and then the big inciting incident comes and gives them an opportunity to become this new person. It's sort of, even if they sometimes miss it, but it's those books where everything is, you know, a field of flowers and it's sunny and breezy and then everything goes up in flames and they have to become the great heroic person.

It you're right. If they had started us, this peace loving person and now they have to go to war, it doesn't have the same resonance. It's a different type of story and it feels forced. Where if you see that character struggling a little bit in those first pages that they kind of want to be something different. They're trying to be do something different and they're just trying to get by and then your inciting incident happens. That outer motivation happens and then you see the character, you know, going, Hey, this sucks, but maybe I can get something out of this to become, it can become a stepping stone instead of the giant rock rolling down the mountain side and crushing you.

Jesper (33m 36s): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think there is another place whereby the character arc coincides or aligns itself where we will with the actual plot of the novel. So you were just talking about basically, well the, the trigger, the trigger, we could say, you know, in the beginning where maybe maybe the inciting incident helps in facilitating the change to start, but then if we move to the end of the novel or the end of the character arc, one of the things that we're trying to align with our future guidebook here on how to plot a novel is actually to make sure that the end of the character arc coincides with the climax of the story.

Absolutely. Cause if you can make that happen so that the character arc actually peaks at the same time that we reaching the climax, then that is really a good way to, you know, generate a very true reaction in the reader. And, uh, I think when that happens, then that is actually what w what will make them remember the story, right? That, that that's what makes them tell other people about how amazing this story really was. Because it wasn't just a climatic, you know, fantasy battle against the evil necromancer in the end of the story.

But it was also the time where the character actually came into his, his or her true being and because of that they succeeded. You know, then it's awesome.

Autumn (35m 3s): Absolutely. That's to me especially, I mean that's a whole different topic. Getting a tween character driven versus plot-driven because with fantasy you just about with all of the books we're talking about, people talk about them being character driven when really all of these books are plot-driven but when the character arc lines up in with the plot so that it's kind of driving the plot and forcing things to happen, that is when the novel becomes fantastic. That's when it feels like the character. It is a character driven novel when actually we have a plot and the plot is what's really driving whole story, but the character is making it feel like it's all happening because of this internal change, their struggles in the outers obstacles that are coming at them.

And I agree that's when, when you can combine those two in, there are definitely steps to do that. And diagrams and whole bunch of other ways is lined up with your character arc and the things are feeding into each other and then you hit the climax and it all has to happen. It's not just a climax of the plot and these big outside events, they're going to happen, but it's also the climax of the character arc. And are they going to succeed or fail or what's going to happen to the character? Oh my gosh, that's when you're like gripping the page and you, you know, that's when you're up at 3:00 AM your time.

Those are the books that are just so riveting. And yeah, that is where it's really part of the character arc in lining it up with the plot. So that all happens in seems to be interconnected, ran. It doesn't just happen randomly. It takes work and if you're a pantser and you do it afterwards, it's just a lot of editing. But you can do it too if you're a plotter or a hybrid more like me, you know, you gotta kind of remember that and work it out and make sure it's happening in the different events are triggering the different acts, but the events in the plot or triggering the character arc and the character art is triggering things in the plot and then it's like, bam, this is a huge novel.

This is so exciting. Yeah,

Jesper (37m 4s): it's funny you mentioned that stuff around the uh, plot-driven versus character-driven story because actually, um, uh, I'm actually making one of the a or an argument in, in the, in the plotting book in, in, in the, in the character section of the book. Um, because if, if you go through the exercises necessary to create a, both a proper character but also creating a proper character arc, then the argument I'm making in the book is that there is no such thing as a purely plucked driven book because the book is always about the characters.

It is always about the couch. A change that is what a story is about. A story is not about a country a is going to water with country B and then at the end of the novel, one of them wins. That's not a story. The story is interesting if there are characters in that setting who goes to war and the effect that that has on them as a person and maybe on their family or what do I know? But that's where the story is. So there is no thing, there was no such thing as a plot driven story.

If, if you at least follow the mythology that we are laying out in this future book here, that you're going to get your hands on it at some point. Um, because it is about the characters and it always has been.

Autumn (38m 25s): That's what I think is true. I mean, I, when people ask me if, uh, I have a hard time coming up with story ideas, if you can come up with a character, if you can look at something, you know, I have a bottle of conditioner on my desk, don't ask, has something to do with the purpling. You have something on your end. You just start adding character nuances, start adding motivation and personifying something. You can write an interesting flip piece of flash fiction tune entire novel because that's what resonates with people. That's what people want to know is the story of that individual, that personified object even.

That's all it takes sometimes to come up with a story is to simply look around your house and say, what do you think is the inner desires of my house plant? You end up going, cause trust me, you'll find a story and everything throwing a little bit of magic and a mad cat and you're going to be fun.

Jesper (39m 21s): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I don't, you know, if autumn if we had been a bit smart about this stuff, you know, we would have had recorded this podcast episode like maybe in the week leading up to us actually releasing the book that we're talking about because this is a just us again but but we thought that we saw thought it an interesting topic. So we just wanted to share some ideas and give you, you know, the listeners some something to think about around the couch arcs and why they're so important.

But if we had been smart, as I said, we would have aligned it with the release of that book, but we didn't. But I don't know if we should say something. When do we actually expect to have this book done, do you think?

Autumn (40m 3s): Oh, let's see. I, there's a chance it could still be by the end of this year. Otherwise I think it'll be very early in 2020 but you know, I think maybe we're smarter than we realize. So there's, it's a huge book and there's so much in it and so much good stuff. So I bet we can find another topic and and you know, this'll just wet your whistle and we'll do another one I'm sure on something that is also a lot of books. I know we've mentioned it at least twice now, so it'll be important and will be able to tie it all in and then announced it's forthcoming release, but it's going well and I think we'll get there very soon.

You remember I had to do some, we did mention there's a lot of diagrams and I still putting those down as well, so it's coming.

Jesper (40m 49s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the, the main or the biggest hurdle that is left apart from, of course some diagrams and whatnot. But other than that, I think that the biggest hurdles that we have left is that we want to include a free download with the book where you can basically download the plot for our first book in our new trilogy. And why we want to do that is basically because then you have the book as your guide and you can go through all the teachings in, in the that guide and basically then by downloading our, you know, that that free version or the platform Alburgh one, you can basically see all those, all that theory in practice.

So seeing how did we actually do what we're teaching in the book. So we thought that that would make like an excellent, uh, accompany or companion, whatever you want to call it, to, to, to the plotting book to make it the teachings even easier to understand and easier to follow. So, uh, so that's basically the biggest hurdle here from a time perspective is that we need to then complete the entire plot for the first book before we can do anything else. Um, but other than that, you know, the, the entire book has been written already and it just needs some editing and uh, and then it needs to download.

That will take quite some time and background. Yeah, so characters are sensitive to any story and without it, you have no story. Next week we're going to talk about ISB and numbers.

Narrator (42m 34s): If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support the amwritingfantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on patrion.com/amwritingfantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep the amwritingfantasy podcast going. Stay safe out there

Speaker 3 (43m 1s): and see you next Monday.